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I'll address you in a sec, as I've been doing some thinking and I might be suffering from a crisis of conviction. But please, could you just link where it is "pointed out to me" that I was saying untrue things? I seriously can not find it, and I've spent way too much time on it already. It would help me if I could let that go.
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On September 28 2012 23:30 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Alsn
Reading your trade-off with DP and your cases against me, I find two things:
a) You have a tendency to heavily misinterpret posts and intentions, AND use them as arguments.
b) You say you like Logic, but you don't seem to read carefully enough. Logic with information is useless.
I mean this, especially in the part where you said I was calling kush out along DP, which is clearly a lie.
For the love of God, if you are town, don't keep this up. I understand we are still in day one and we don't have much to go on, but still. The last thing I need is another austincc that will warp everything I say in a "scum would do this" way.
Seems Like Z - Boson was right in this point.
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I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta
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On September 29 2012 21:15 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 23:30 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Alsn
Reading your trade-off with DP and your cases against me, I find two things:
a) You have a tendency to heavily misinterpret posts and intentions, AND use them as arguments.
b) You say you like Logic, but you don't seem to read carefully enough. Logic with information is useless.
I mean this, especially in the part where you said I was calling kush out along DP, which is clearly a lie.
For the love of God, if you are town, don't keep this up. I understand we are still in day one and we don't have much to go on, but still. The last thing I need is another austincc that will warp everything I say in a "scum would do this" way. Seems Like Z - Boson was right in this point. Ah, sorry, I must have missed a row there, I remember reading that but thinking "oh, that must be a typo, he must mean 'without', not with". :/
Bleh, that makes most of my arguing today pretty shitty, I wish I had seen that earlier. I was acting under the premise that you were totally in the wrong by calling me a liar, but now it makes perfect sense. It wasn't a lie though, just a mistake, but I admit you had no way of knowing that.
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On September 29 2012 21:18 DarthPunk wrote:
0_o Get over yourself, I said I like logic, not that I don't have emotions or the capacity to be swayed by them like anyone else. 
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EBWOP: Sorry, that last bit came off a bit too strongly, It's supposed to be a humorous comment, nothing more, nothing less.
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By the way, just to clarify about my vote.
I realised that my entire vote count argument falls apart if there's no compelling reason to believe kush to be town, and asking myself the following question kinda shocked me:
"What has kush done for town?"
I couldn't find an answer to that question, no matter how hard I looked. As such, I can't not vote for him.
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Seriously, I need a break from this as I'm feeling indecisive as shit at the moment while I woke up brimming with confidence that I would find some scum today. I'll be checking in on the thread all the way until lynch, so I'll reply if you need me to, but I don't think I'll be making any monster posts.
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Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now:
1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him.
2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch.
Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details.
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On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now:
I'm sorry, but I don't believe these are reasons a town would choose to make a vote.
On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him.
So the scum slip itself doesn't give you good reason to vote for him, but his poor defense does? A mafia making a scum slip could have the best explanation in the world. That doesn't exonerate them.
On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch.
So your second reason isn't even something that Kush has done. Wouldn't you also say that mafia would benefit from a mis-lynch more than from a no-lynch? Could you elaborate more on the bolded part, because you give no explanation as to how a mafia would benefit more from a no-lynch.
On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details.
You would think a town would want to be more than 25% sure the person they are voting for is scum. You don't even have any cases made against kush. No questions asked. Very vague reasons given...
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Vote Count
If your vote is not properly formatted it will not be counted. Everyone is required to vote.
debears (0) - Z-Boson
kushm4sta (10) - Stutters695, Sonic Death Monkey, Z-Boson, debears, Omniscient4983, DarthPunk, DarthPunk, RemedySC, Djodref, corrosion, alsn
Not Voting (2) - Lesrah, kushm4sta
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently, kushm4sta is set to be lynched! If you see that your vote is incorrect then pm me.
You have 5 hours left to vote! Deadline is at 20:00 GMT (+00:00)
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Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go.
On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk:
snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later:
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another.
What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ?
Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day.
So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss  Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote:
@DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case.
2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them.3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears
Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting.
Inconsistency 1
1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it.
2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address.
3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on.
4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section.
5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town.
Inconsistency 2
1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie.
Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help.
Ending
1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation?
2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on?
Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact):
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:34 Z-BosoN wrote:
I'm not against a kush lynch atm, but from what I gather kush's case is mostly meta-based with a side dish of not-scumhunting and also general scummy-looking posts. I think my evidence against debear is much more damning. Please read carefully his posts and my case and see if you don't agree. So he bashs me for “defending kush” (according to himself) and then infers that the evidence against kush isn’t the greatest. That’s not very consistent. On September 29 2012 05:55 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote:On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another.
What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ?
Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day.
So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote:
@DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread. But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case.
I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk?
In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts.
Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around.
Alright on to another post
+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE]On September 29 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote:
kush this "act" you are playing is not helping you, and is not helping town. Man the fuck up and make cases against people, try to defend yourself. I'd much rather lynch debears because I find the arguments against him to be much more substantial than the ones against you, which are mostly meta-based. I disagree with a meta-based lynch when I've provided real arguments against someone else (which, incidentally you shat on. It seems like you actually want to get lynched)
If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears.
Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush.
+ Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 10:28 Z-BosoN wrote:
READ
An interesting snippet from the op: Show nested quote +Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote:
debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now.
This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game…
Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this.
Next post,
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote:
@kush
The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm
@k boson
You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next.
So he says two things here.
1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does.
2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today…
Next post
On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote:
DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him.
I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it.
I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed.
Final part of this (thank god)
On September 29 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote:
They are probably just echoing the suspicion I posted earlier, concerning my assumption on mods.
It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument.
Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”.
FOS Z-Boson
If kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now.
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On September 29 2012 16:26 Djodref wrote:@debearsso let me reformulate my question so we can understand each other better this time What is your read about me so far ? [*]town [*]null [*]scum You can use quantitative adjectives [/list][/list]
null right now. Just was working on Boson. Will look into you more though 
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guys im red sorry for sucking. wp darth
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Interesting. Let's see:
On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote:Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go. Yea, I was already a suspect on your list, so at least you realized that people were expecting a case.Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk:
snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later:
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another.
What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ?
Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day.
So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote:
@DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case.
2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them.3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting. Inconsistency 1 1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it. That's right, there can be some Mafia WIFOM. I chose to add all the things that can come from mafia WIFOM and would go along with mafia rationale, but I didn't use them as main arguments.2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address. Come on man. that's not even a supporting argument. I just said you didn't attack DP to make it crystal clear that your FOS on kush was entirely meta-based, because if the flame wars was any suspicious, then you would FOS DP as well. 3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on. Yea, but you didn't say anything, your FoS on kush disappeared. It doens't look to me like a townie move. It looks more like a "empty FOS just to distance yourself from him" then a "I honestly think kush looks suspicious".4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section. That's fine, I agree he was going overboard. I don't understand, however, your motivation for it. Like I said, you rushed in to critique DP BEFORE you dealt with his arguments against kush. I see you mention this below, so let's see....5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town. What? You wouldn't have been attacking kush. You would have been discussing DP's arguments. Why the fuck do you feel the need to help him defend himself? You feeling sorry or something? About someone you theoretically had a suspicion on? You say you weren't defending him, but in the way you've written point no.5), it's almost explicit that you were going for DP because he was hammering a defenseless kush. No, dude, no.Inconsistency 2 1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie. Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help. EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make.Ending 1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation? They don't. Town want to find scum, and when townies send out FoS's, they really mean it. They don't insta-drop them like you did. It's not scum-motivation, it's scum-slip.2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on? My case isn't based on you calling me out. I just found it mention-worthy to say that your cases are really really similar (i.e fabricated). Even the wording at the end is the same. It doesn't strike me as legit cases.Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact): + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:34 Z-BosoN wrote:
I'm not against a kush lynch atm, but from what I gather kush's case is mostly meta-based with a side dish of not-scumhunting and also general scummy-looking posts. I think my evidence against debear is much more damning. Please read carefully his posts and my case and see if you don't agree. So he bashs me for “defending kush” (according to himself) and then infers that the evidence against kush isn’t the greatest. That’s not very consistent. On September 29 2012 05:55 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote:On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another.
What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ?
Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day.
So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote:
@DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread. But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case. I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk? What's the point in defending him if you find him scummy?In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts. Yep. From suspicious semi-lurker one-line sheep to "townie who should ask coach for help" without any clarifications, without anything. k.Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around. Are you seriously that dense and think that my fos on you was OMGUS, after all I've written? What the fuck do you mean "only mafia motivations"? You are doing things that I find much more likely coming from a mafia then from a townie, period. This is the most ridiculous paragraph you've yet written. Alright on to another post + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote:
kush this "act" you are playing is not helping you, and is not helping town. Man the fuck up and make cases against people, try to defend yourself. I'd much rather lynch debears because I find the arguments against him to be much more substantial than the ones against you, which are mostly meta-based. I disagree with a meta-based lynch when I've provided real arguments against someone else (which, incidentally you shat on. It seems like you actually want to get lynched)
If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears. Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 10:28 Z-BosoN wrote:
READ
An interesting snippet from the op: Show nested quote +Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote:
debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now. ' This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game… Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this. Next post, + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote:
@kush
The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm
@k boson
You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next. So he says two things here. 1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does. Read as: in addition to my scumread, there is this. Not "this adds to my scumread".2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today… I don't know kushs alignment. I would rather lynch you because I find my arguments against you much more substantial. Hard to push a lynch on you though, when he refuses to act townie and basically begs himself to be lynched. I didn't think him, and still don't, more scummy than you, but he has put himself in a position where it's impossible for me to push a lynch on you.Next post Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote:
DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him.
I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it. I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed. You think it's a weak case. I don't. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do, get people to agree with it. Not everyone have the same opinions on what constitutes a "good" and a "bad" case.
And what exactly do you hate about this kind of play? Making a case and try to push it? Of course you hate it. You are scum.Final part of this (thank god) Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote:
They are probably just echoing the suspicion I posted earlier, concerning my assumption on mods.
It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument. Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”. It's a theory that makes a lot of sense. I was asked not to discuss hypothetical mod actions in-thread, and so I can't feasibly use this as an argument. If kush flips red, you will have the entirety of that post against you, in addition to my case on you. If he flips green, you'll have just my case, which is strong by itself, imo. A case in which you've done a very poor job defending yourself against it.FOS Z-BosonIf kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now. So you agree that kush must die now, because he imploded, and would rather vote me. That's exactly the same thing that happened to me. Except that I tried to push a vote on you before he imploded, and you did not on me. Because you were scared that it would seem like you know his alignment, as you've stated in this very post. Because you are scum.
I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red.
He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc.
This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me.
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Vote Count! Deadline in roughly 1 hour.
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debears (0) - Z-Boson
kushm4sta (10) - Stutters695, Sonic Death Monkey, Z-Boson, debears, Omniscient4983, DarthPunk, RemedySC, Djodref, corrosion, alsn, DarthPunk
Not Voting (2) - Lesrah, kushm4sta
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently, kushm4sta is set to be lynched! If you see that your vote is incorrect then pm me.
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More interesting. I noticed this earlier post from him.
On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote:
@djo
What parts of his case specifically do you believe?
His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out.
There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes
1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch
2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him.
Which has less assumptions? Number 1.
My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone.
My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same.
Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it.
@z-boson
The same question stated the line above refers to you
I'm suddenly mafia because I look at the mafia side only? I answered this in my reply, but dude, I've outlined the main arguments very carefully. Again, it's not that you kicked a cat and thus I think you are mafia because only mafia would have reason to kick the cat, which is what you are boiling down my whole case against you to. It's that kicking a cat is not something town would do. Dropping two cases instantly is what people who have made "FOSes" generally do. Your misty stance on kush doesn't seem towny at all. Things are making you seem scummy as opposed to townie. It's not my own crazy interpretation, I've already said why i think they make you scummy.
The second part, you are being blatantly ignorant. My case does not depend on whether you referred him to a coach. It's the fact that you insta-dropped your main accusations out of fucking nowhere. That does not have scum motivation. I just find it more likely that that is a mistake scum are much more inclined to make than town, due to the fact that they can't genuinely scumhunt.
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On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote:
I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red.
He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc.
This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me.
I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar.
I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though.
To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it.
So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case.
So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me.
I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage.
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EBWOP: When I say "your case against him" in the second to last paragraph, I'm talking about BosoN's case against debears.
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EPT
