EPTThat said, he has said other newbies look town to him. Its weird since its hard to distinguish newbie town from newbie scum (the very reason i got away d1 last game with an obvious scumslip)
Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII - Page 45
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debears
United States2516 Posts
That said, he has said other newbies look town to him. Its weird since its hard to distinguish newbie town from newbie scum (the very reason i got away d1 last game with an obvious scumslip) | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On October 05 2012 13:04 RemedySC wrote: Why have such an out of the blue description of what could have happened? He seems to know a lot about what scum would have done in this situation. For mafia motivation I can see him trying to lead us to three lynches, which we've already done one. I know Drazak slipped his medic role in XXVI after his night action and Xatalos picked up on it (that's why I don't really like blue role discussions after night actions). This is not how he slipped though, Drazak slipped it by talking about the rationale of the medic. I feel like this could easily just be scum trying to passively suggest three mislynches (we should lynch Debears, Djodref and Alsn, not because I want to but because Darth wants to) or just a green speculating. Or possibly a medic, but the risk of him being medic AND missing to save Darth seems rather low to me. You need two rather low probability events to coincide for that to be true. Basically I just don't make much out of this post. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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RemedySC
Canada176 Posts
I really dislike speculating also, but when he is our number one scum read, I would like to consider the possibilities. So until he responds i'll throw my vote on him. ##vote Omniscient4983 | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
My main point on it is that it's something that looks like he is contributing. Instead, he is stating the obvious then trying to turn it into a WIFOM-go-round (or something like that). Ultimately, it's not a post that helps town in any way | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 03 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote: Alright, since Lesrah wasn't posting through D2 then that means that if debears was the other scum there was no other scum trying to stop his lynch. Hence the lack of opposition to his lynch becomes less of a town-tell to me. This, coupled with the earlier case on him (which he hasn't adequately responded to, imo) makes me view him as scum. ## Vote debears Heading out for the night. If I don't make it back by daypost, cop please check omni or remedy and remember it is possible GF is last mafia. That's all, glhf. What did you mean by I did not adequately respond? Can you point out specific things about the case against me that I did not address? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
##FoS Z-Boson | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
As promised, here are my explanations regarding your points against me. The answers are in bold font in the quote. I've spoiled it because it's not really relevant for today's discussion ^^ + Show Spoiler + On October 05 2012 01:35 debears wrote: Alright Sonic, On Djo 1) Eager to ask for town credit for asking kush a question I didn't ask Kush A question, I asked him THE question which has provoked his scumslip. Looking back at my play on D1, I think it might be the only good thing I made for the town at this time. So let me be proud of it ! But I perfectly understand now that I don't deserve town credit for this one because it was mainly Darth's pressure which has made Kush exploded. I shouldn't have brought it up but I was difficult for me to be proud in silence. 2) Playing the newbie card But I'm a newbie <3 ! On a serious note, I'm not going to use it again and take responsibility for my bad play. I hope it's going to help me improve. 3) His statement early game about confident that we would mislynch day 1, then being so confident in kush being scum later, although he agreed with kush early and then later switched to kush after all the votes were piled on. -in this case, the last mafia would not want to bus kush with lesrah being totally afk. Would make sense that mafia would wait to vote kush I was not confident in our ability to find one scum D1 because of the other games I've read on this forum. So I was more inclined to believe that we were going to mislynch. I understand now why I should never have this mentality when starting a game. Also I didn't vote for kush because I bought his explanations for his scumslip. When I came back to the thread, it was really really clear that he was mafia. I remind you that I was partying and then sleeping while kush exploded. 4) Eagerness to jump on kush's WIFOM statments on me (I find that mafia would be most likely to use the advantage that kush gave him) If you are talking about the two WIFOM bomb post, I admit that it was a mistake. I was thinking too much about these posts and they also fucked me up. At least Kush has managed to post-confuse me with great success with them. But I still think that Kush's very first post attacking Z-Boson on his case and vote against you might incriminate you. 5) Never really addressing the Alsn case (he did after the lynch but odd that he didn't do it during the lynch). All he said was that he was ok with lynching Alsn----shows signs of not caring that much I admit and I think I have already stated that I was sheeping Z-Boson multiple cases on Alsn. While reading the thread and paying particular attention at them, I was then clear for me that Alsn and you were the scumteam. I've spent all my time focusing on you and I couldn't take the time to make up my own mind about Alsn. It's not a good play but I honestly didn't have the time nor the courage to look at his filter in detail. 6) Stated that he wanted to drop discussion of me today yet continues to bring me up At least I thought I should give a sum up of my reasons for voting you. I'm sorry to have answered the questions people were asking me about this sum up. 7) Him bringing up lesrah multiple times. Seemed to worried about how lesrah would be handled I don't know how to answer to this without using an argument which could be turned into WIFOM but... Ok, if I were scum, I think I would have used PMs with the hosts to ask abouth Lesrah's whereabouts. Maybe ask about him once to blend in (even Darth asked abouth Lesrah) but I would just have brought attetion to myself by doing it multiple times. 8) Him FOS corrosion day two, then in one post unFOSing corrosion, giving a town read on corrosion, then accusing me of trying to mislynch corrosion I guess it was bad play from my part. I need to check the lurker filters once again because it was easy for me to sympathize with them and I feel I've read their filters my newbie town glasses only. 9) Asking for a vig to nk me when I could be easily lynched today. Would be a wasted bullet I'm sorry but giving the atmosphere during D2, I was totally thinking that wasting a bullet on you was a good idea, scum or town. It could have at best end the game and at worst preventing people from just voting you and going away. I bet that you are still on the scumlist of a good number of people. 10) Trying to start the newbie town read on the other noobies so that he fits in with them. For someone so active he seems quite determined to mark himself as a newbie [b]I understand that my play could give this impression. I have no excuse except that I was looking at the other newbies with biased town googles. I'm not going to give town-reads anymore. 11) This quote Notice the wording. Townies don't care about looking "safe" with their votes. The care about lynching their biggest scumread. I was meaning safe regarding of the possibility of a no-lynch. I brought this point again when I switched my vote on Alsn. That's pretty much it. All of them (if not most) can be considered newbie town mistakes. I left out some of the speculation stuff. It shouldn't play a role against him. Feel free to ask me more questions or more details about some points. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I appreciate the answers. As I said before, we have more pressing suspects right now. I'm not too worried about you being scum at this point. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I had some of my own doubts about Z-Bo through most of this game. But, after looking through his filter and his meta, I felt that he is town. What I would like to ask you about your examination on the Z-Bo kush relationship. What was strange about it? Was it exclusively mafia motivated? And what do you mean "without any commitment"? I would say him throwing a vote on me and then switching to Omni still shows commitment, just not commitment at one person. If you could expand on this, especially with the amount of posts Z-Bo has, that would be great. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On October 05 2012 14:19 Shady Sands wrote: By the way, I'm reading through the thread. Right now, my top scumread, believe it or not, is Z-Boson. His interaction with Kush D1 was just... strange (it almost feels like half of the discussion there was occurring somewhere else, like in the Scum QT), his unvote of Debears and transfer to Alsn is also wierd, and finally his constant fingerpointing without any commitment D3 fits the profile of being the very last scum trying to stay alive and set up mislynch chains over the next few cycles. ##FoS Z-Boson Is this the point where you disappear again? You might want to answer these questions: On October 04 2012 22:16 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Just went through the Shady part of the filter... not a lot of posts but the ones there are certainly aren't convincing. How do you choose Debears over Alsn because everyone "nods along" to his case? Where did you get the impression anyone was oppose the Alsn wagon? I mean like... what? The lack of resistance for the Debears wagon was the only reason you didn't like it? And instead choose the Alsn wagon which had just as little resistance? Nothing else, other than that he hasn't "adequately responded" to his earlier case. Not even mentioning which part of the case you think makes Debears suspicious. Not only do your weak reasoning make you suspicious of Debears, it makes you certain he is scum? Such complete and ridiculous sheeping, unfortunately you're not the only one. Now I'll give you, making a case against Boson doesn't come off as very scummy to me since it'll definitely give you some attention, but it could easily be that you've read my "just cruising by" argument against and realize you need something new. This needs to be something better than a "His interaction with Kush D1 was just... strange" quality argument. Point out what about the discussion you think is occuring somewhere else. | ||
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RemedySC
Canada176 Posts
NIght! | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
I'm glad you brought this up because I'm also feeling the same way. I also have been thinking about the possibility for Z-Boson to be the last scum even if it is really small. On a side note, I think everyone should be suspicious of everyone right now. DarthPunk reads are not golden, he might have been totally wrong about the townieness of SDM or Stutters. As far as I know, he didn't even clean Z-Boson (I'm going to check it after this post). Please think about the possibility for an elaborate bus of Kush. In this case, the players who are looking good right now are also suspicious. If you look at the direction the town is taking right now to find the last scum (one of us between Debears, Omni, RSC, Shady and me) it would be a total disaster if the last scum was one of the three confirmed townies. That's why the some posts from Z-BosoN are really irking me: - His first edition of the battle of the noose could have been a nice set up to focus all town attention on Debears and Alsn, preventing us from discussing other possible targets (I know that I have my part in this with my tunneling of Debears). I think we all remember this post but I put it in the following spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 17:08 Z-BosoN wrote: The Battle for the Noose Alsn vs. debears ![[image loading]](http://www.newyorkemploymentlawattorneys.com/files/2011/11/Noose.jpg) The tables are set. The town remains asunder. The arguments on both sides are compelling. Each one of them wants the other dead, and only one will live to fight another day. Alsn Main posts against him. They are both mine, and I want people to read them again. The meta read I've added later is complementary to this main case as to why I think he's scummy. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote: So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However... ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone? + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 13:37 Z-BosoN wrote: This was one massively deluded post. I couldn't have been any clearer on my case against debears. My case presented two main arguments, and one supporting argument that includes a bunch of shit that can feasibly come from a scum. Argument 1) His stance on kush after a direct FOS. Argument 2) His 180 on Djoref. I have made these both very clear in my case. You are acting as if I didn't bring up his 180 on Djoref. Your only "original" argument that could arguably mean something includes him being defensive. That's actually the one thing he has going for him, he's defended himself and still managed to make cases, more cases than you. I started answering this post topic by topic but quickly figured out that it had so much uselessness, so much pointlessness, and so much gibberish that I simply couldn't continue answering straight up. I get emotional when I feel someone is talking too much crap, but that does not automatically make my entire case based on emotion. In this post you've managed to: a) give me a town read based on my "emotion" and "confirmation bias" while throwing my case to shit and then actually using one of it's main arguments. b) make a weaker case against debears, in what seems to be a weakass attempt to justify your vote c) not defend yourself against one certain post I made. Are you gonna say that it's confirmation biased too? This post reeks of mafia mentality. Why? You accuse me of making weak cases based on emotion and confirmation bias. You feel the need to say that this makes me townie. You are trying to discredit me, right after I've made an entire case against you. But you don't want to make it look like you are defending a high priority target like debears, so you go ahead and try to find some other things you can say against him so it can seem like you are genuinely after him. Right afterwards you try an AtE (appeal to emotion). Basically crying about your pro-town efforts, which, ultimately, surmount to zero contribution. Also, in this post, you try to divert attention from the huge wall you've just posted, saying we should target other people who have not posted more. That is not town mentality. It shows you value very little your actually case about debears, and that you are not willing to take a stance. corrosion I did not make a case against you. Getting defensive? @DarthPunk I'm getting fairly busy this week, but there is one more aspect from debears that I've noticed but haven't gone over yet. His whole relation with kush is also very, very shaky. I have to go sleep, but please go control+F kush on debears filter and see what you can come up with, to see if you reach the same observations as I. At the moment, refer to my above post, Alsn is coming off as insanely scummy. He's trying very hard, it must be. In my mind I've come up with a debears/Alsn scumteam, and from what I've gathered, the latest posts give sense to this. I don't think Djodref is scum, or at least he hasn't shown it yet. He'd make a terrible day 2 lynch, imo. I still have to think whos a better day2 lynch, whether it's debears or Alsn. Gonna go sleep, gnight all. I feel that my own two posts against him were the most significant. Debears has also added how he doesn't scumhunt. I'd like to go deeper in this providing a meta-read, from his game in XXV. He was shot n1, so all his cases were made in the space of a day. First post: + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote: @Lvdr I tend to agree that Shady is not deviating much from his town meta, but as I said earlier I don't think we can trust meta that much in a game like this, especially since many of us are not qualified enough to draw conclusions from it. With such a small sample size we are bound to make mistakes if we focus on it too much. In fact, I think it's too early to tell from a few hours of one-liners and newbie advice even if there was some good analysis to be had from it. As for yourself, I would think that as an experienced player you would be able to offer better advice to the beginners than: Given that, I feel that the following comment deserves scrutiny: This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!". Especially since comparing meta is not something easily done during a stressful day 1 as a new player(I tried while observing XXIV, it's really confusing). So Lvdr, while I have no good reason to suspect you on anything but what I right now perceive as laziness, that could change if you don't start leading by example instead of through fingerpointing. @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. Why, for example, did players call you out in the way they did? Was it to deflect? Was it to make themselves seem overly active while they in fact were not? Was there another reason such as simply trying to help you start contributing? There is a good reason for the "lynch the lurker" policy. This because it is in the towns interest to catch scum with dubious motivations or casting blame on shaky grounds and that can only happen if we force them to speak up. Thus, the worst thing you can do right now is to stay quiet and offer yourselves up to scum casting the blame on you without themselves seeming suspicious. Instead, what we presumably want to encourage are lots of backs and forths in order to have a history on who everyone suspected and when, and for what reason(the filter button on the right side of people's posts are good for seeing this). As long as you carefully think about your arguments, no self-respecting townie should have any problem with starting discussion. Things to start discussions about can be: Who seems to be promoting the town agenda? Who are the people that look the most suspicious to you? And why! Is there someone who you feel are using bad or dodgy reasons as basis for their arguments? Looking at the thread there have been a few posts since I started writing this, will read and post more in a while. Notice how he's inquisitive. Is asking around for suspicions. Quickly, he sends out his FOS (ironically, against kush): + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote: (Emphasis mine) I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote: If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta Again, quite agressive. From there, it gets better: + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 11:59 Alsn wrote: I've already warned you, this is not a game based on gut feeling and emotion. A statement such as "85% mafia" is something which needs a lot more evidence than a few one-liners this early into the game. You are providing a lot of controversy with very little thoughtful analysis. I ask that if you are truly town to take a good look at yourself and think. You most certainly do not have to blame someone else in order for yourself to look like less of a target. In fact, baseless accusation only lets scum attack you for being incoherent while in one fell swoop make themselves look like town-heroes. This with town having only to agree that you were playing very weirdly. I do believe that you are simply responding in a knee-jerk fashion to our attacks against you. Take a deep breath, take a look at what you have said, and think about if you really had good reason to say the things you did. If not, simply tell us. But if you truly suspect someone, you absolutely must provide better evidence than "waaah, he called me bad!", otherwise the rest of us can't make any sense of your suspicions. Here he takes a strong stance on how mafia is not a game of emotion. Whereas in this game, he has this to say: "It's not that I don't have emotions or the capacity to be swayed be them like anyone else". Very, very different. Onward. + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 15:00 Alsn wrote: I'd just like to state the fact that among the people that have been active so far, every single one has pointed out that kushm4sta's posting quality has not been particularly stellar or helpful from town's point of view, it has sparked a lot of conversation, I also feel that we have all conveyed our feelings that in order for his posting to help town, he needs to start putting a lot more thought into his arguments. That being said, while there has been some analysis of other posters, I would love it if we could stop focusing on kushm4sta for now. This in order to make sure people who hasn't contributed much yet are grilled about it, and that we make sure there is more than a single person being attacked. I noticed that Shady Sands also completely dodged the accusations by Spaghetticus after a post claiming he had to get some work done but has been very busy on TL for the last 2,5 hours. So, in conclusion, please stop the tunnelvisioning on kushm4sta for now and let's see if we can't find something else to talk about for a while too. After all, there's a lot of time left before lynch. Tries to be proactive, something he's not done yet here. + Show Spoiler + On August 25 2012 08:36 Alsn wrote: So, right now I get the feeling that the feud between Shady and Lvdr is what is most likely to yield fruitful results, seeing as kush has been told several times over about what the situation is and what he should be doing. With that in mind, I feel I must take Lvdr's side in this. I had had a long running suspicion against Lvdr since before I went to bed and was planning on making a case against him when I woke up, this was mostly because of his general lack of content in his posts. Upon closer inspection of his filter however, while he has a lot of very short posts, to me they all seem to lead in the proper direction, often mirroring my own thoughts on the matter. Not so with Shady, the last thing he wrote of substance before I went to bed was the following:+ Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 15:43 Shady Sands wrote:Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things: 1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks 2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him. At first, I thought this was a sound argument, but upon closer inspection I get the feeling that he just wanted to be able to later on get a wagon going against kush and I'll explain why. The first option of ignoring him completely just seems too extreme. Why is this the only other option? This sounds to me as if he is trying to force everyone to conclude that only the second option is worthwhile. Also, this statement is similar to other statements made by myself and others(Shady included) earlier in the thread that we should focus on other people instead of tunneling kush, but with a subtle difference. It suggests to ignore him completely! Then he tries to stress us into making a decision fast. The argument can be made for stressing the point being a town motivated idea to spur on conversation and getting out hopeful scumslips, but he completely abandons the idea later when it does not take hold. Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand doubling down on kush makes very little sense to me. The issue of the roleclaim is something I want kush to defend himself against, but until such a thing happens and we get closer to having to come to a consensus(I'll be awake from now until lynch time), I don't think kush is someone we should be focusing too much on. He absolutely must start partaking in dicussion without knee-jerk responses though! Because of this, I'm changing my read on kushm4sta to a null read, while declaring a: FoS Shady Sands This is all with the caveat that I cannot deny Shady's last point about wanting input from Weetee, myself and Spaghetticus, and I'm not entirely happy with kush's, mkfuba's and Dandel Ion's contributions so far either. Brings forth another FoS. Is more analytical. Next two posts also go ahead and extend the view on how he is proactive, how he often takes the "Guys, we should do this" or "Guys, I want to do that" stance. + Show Spoiler + On August 25 2012 13:20 Alsn wrote: Ok, I would like to take a step back and see where we are right now and what our options are. As I see it, we have 2 people pushing for actual votes. thrawn and Shady. I'm inclined to believe either story but I do find both of you to be a bit premature in your conclusions. Maybe you are just waiting for more information and just want to get the voting started, which I suppose is a fair point. Both of the proposed lynchees are being pushed due to the fact that they are playing as "bad townies". Let's disregard for the moment if they are doing so under pretenses or if they were genuinely put off balance by attacks during the early part of the day. I will state for the record that given the choice of only kush or WeeTee, I would prefer to lynch WT. Simply because the JK claim is something we should be able to confirm later on in the game. Dandel Ion, mkfuba, Lvdr and Spaghetticus. What are your feelings on this subject? Should town be ok with just picking either WeeTee or kush to lynch, or is there something else of substance to go on? From the last few posts here, I'm feeling relatively sure about thrawn being town, mostly due to the material he has produced, but also for following through on WT with what I would say is great success for his case. It should be noted however from looking at his filter, that most of his posting has been on the policy discussion early on, as well as defending people when it was highly non-controversial to do so(shady and lvdr early on, and me when WT attacked me). Shady, I'm still not entirely satisfied with your reasons for going so hard on kush, but I can't entirely disagree with your reasoning. I would like it if Lvdr came back to defend himself more against the things pointed out against him by you and others. Because while I agree with the following quote: And you,Lvdr, could make yourself a lot clearer on a lot of topics, Shady's criticism of you has not been entirely without merit and while I think he jumped the gun, it would help the rest of us if you could elaborate. Especially your backtrack on mkfuba who I also feel needs to get his stuff together and write something of substance. + Show Spoiler + On August 26 2012 03:21 Alsn wrote: Ok, had to take a nap for a few hours in order to be able to stay awake at lynch time, but now I'm back. Boy did things happen in those few hours! First, I would generally like to agree with spag about kush/WT as I made clear in my earlier post that I only really wanted to lynch WT if there was no other option. That being said, if I am to exclude them both as lynch targets today the cases presented so far are against Shady Sands, Lvdr and Dandel Ion. Seeing as I have already placed suspicion of my own against Shady, I absolutely understand where Spag is coming from. However, right now I'm more inclined to believe that he is overzealous, especially considering the fact that if we (mis)lynch someone else, he is one of the players that we have the most material on for analysis as outlined by Lvdr. I would like to return to the discussion we had early about lurker lynching. From what we have gathered so far, the "lurkiest"(descending from most lurky) seem to be: Dandel Ion, mkfuba, WT, kush and arguably Lvdr and Spag. I feel that Lvdr and Spag has at least provided enough thoughts of their own that they can be considered non-lurky, and mkfuba to some degree has done this as well. You all know my opinion of WT/kush resembles that of Spag. This leaves Dandel Ion as a lurky player that we don't know very much about. For this reason, I'm inclined to agree with Lvdr that Dandel Ion is a lynch that town should be able to get behind. I realize that mkfuba accusing Lvdr has merit, and I will address his concerns, but first. ##Vote Dandel Ion @mkfuba: I entirely agree with your concerns regarding Lvdr, but I find his arguments for lynching Dandel Ion compelling. I also think that a (supposed) scum Lvdr has gotten away with posting way too little motivations for his reasoning. I called him out on more than one occasion for exactly that reason. I do believe that asking him to shape up during N1/D2 would reveal his intentions however. Also, while your case against Lvdr has some merit, I feel that your own motivations could easily be seen as scummy, for these resons I cannot get behind your case just yet. @Spag: I agree with you that if you are wearing scum-tinted glasses, looking at Shady's behavior can easily be seen as scum, I need look no further than my own FoS to see that and your own case surely doesn't help me lose that suspicion. Like I said earlier in this post, I do believe we need to give him the benefit of the doubt as well however. @everyone I urge you all to listen to Spag's argument regarding WT/kush, please instead get behind one of the other cases and tell us your reasons for doing so. I would like to repeat my earlier sentiment that if the only choice we have is between kushm4sta and WeeTee, my vote will go on WeeTee. I would however like to see us come to some kind of consensus at least an hour before lynch time. 2:40 to go. Why he's a better lynch target Note the INSANE contrast he's shown this game. He's come off as a weak, insecure, non-scumhunting player. In the other game, as above, where he was town, he was an inquisitive, proactive, and unemotional townie, and even went and got shot because of it. -Here is another post that could be a really nice preparation for a few safe mislynches if he was the last scum. Please note how he accepted Stutters townieness in his exchanges with DarthPunk. He seems reluctant to do it at first but it end up in this fashion. On October 04 2012 00:54 Z-BosoN wrote: Like I said, I'm on my cell phone  In that case, then I'll have to agree that it does make him look town. So, unless someone has made some spectacular play as scum (which I doubt, more on that later) We have town reads on: SDM, DP, me, and Stutters That only leaves Shady, debears, RSC, Omni, Djodref. If we can guarantee that, and if debears isn't scum, we are in great shape Like someone above said, we should not get overconfident (as I was sad to learn in XXIV) but still -And last but not least, here he wants to go for a second battle for the noose. On October 05 2012 00:18 Z-BosoN wrote: I take RSC to be town. His posts seem genuine, despite posting less, and he's made some good points on corrosion (now shady) and omni, my two main suspicions. It seems like his townie meta, I'd like someone who's played with him to confirm. This only leaves SS and Omni, both players who attacked kush in a non-convincing manner early in day one and hopped on not too impressively on the Alsn wagon. I still have to read more carefully, but from my readings on my small-screened cell phone in class, It seems this way. SS and Omni seem like good lynch contenders for the second edition of battle for the noose What do you guys think? Does it look like he was joking in his post ? Because here is what I got after my remark on his proposition for this second edition of the battle of the noose. On October 05 2012 01:20 Z-BosoN wrote: It's just a joke, I'm not doing that shit again. I was just saying that both our friends omni and ss look like decent lynch targets right now. [joke] And my main point against Z-BosoN is that he's trying to buddy me, he keeps saying I'm cute ! [/joke] So I'm going to do this as well ##FoS Z-BosoN | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
Looking at today's discussion, in the case of a town Omni, this is just a golden day for the last scum ! He can just drop by, cast his vote on Omni with a good reason because it's true that he does look scummy and disappear without anyone noticing him. In my opinion, Omni is a lurker above anything else and we have yet to hear from him. With his posting habits, I doubt that he is going to have enough time to defend himself... | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I would like you to read through zbos other games and then read through his filter once again. Tell me what you think of his meta. If you are serious with your fos of him, please follow up | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On October 05 2012 02:02 Z-BosoN wrote: hm, waht? Aren't you excited to find the last scum? I don't want this game to last more than tomorrow. Pretty sure the dudes in the obs qt don't either lol hmm.. I wrote this post while assuming the last scum would be one of the lurkers. Honestly it would be pretty lame and I would hope for this game to end right now if it was the case. But it would be much funnier if the last scum was, let's say, debears ^^ or even... you ! I didn't really understand your remarks on my post. Are you confident that we can find the last scum today ? | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
Ok, I'll get through it. Could you be as kind as giving me the links for his previous games ? Also, you are still on my scumlist, but I would like to say that the more you post, the less I want to lynch you. Isn't it strange ? | ||
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