EPTVigilante, hit Ottoxlol. I have a feeling Gravan is going to die but I think we should hit Ottox and push to lynch someone else tomorrow, we'll probably get more productive discussion out of that and thus catch more scum.
TL Mafia LVII - Page 43
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
Vigilante, hit Ottoxlol. I have a feeling Gravan is going to die but I think we should hit Ottox and push to lynch someone else tomorrow, we'll probably get more productive discussion out of that and thus catch more scum. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:48 BlackMamba24 wrote: because there are clear and very mafia-aligned motivations behind what ottoxlol is doing that make zero sense from any other perspective "too scummy to be scum" is a BS argument dude, ottoxlol needs the noose I know it's tempting to think so, but hard defending confirmed scum isn't at all scummy. It reads pretty bad townie actually. Though quite frankly I'm shocked that you can't attribute any town motivation toward ottoxlol while thinking that MiltonKram isn't scummy, and attributing town motivations towards his actions. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
Hopeless and Broodking are the two people who posted cases on people other than Mattchew (Forumite and Toad, respectively) in the time period between when BC's attack and Palmar's confirmation. This I think is a very important period of time because the uncertainty of the town on how to deal with BC and Matt makes it the best time for scum to try and divert the wagon of their scumbuddy. Both Hopeless and Brood's cases could have been made with that intent, but I see Hopeless as scum easier than I see Brood. Brood had expressed his distaste for Toad earlier in the game and just doesn't fit the reluctant busser as well as Hopeless. I have already taken issue with some of his case on Forumite Here. But when you combine his case with the post he made a page earlier. You have to admit that it looks awfully like he is attacking BC (the main proponent of a Matt lynch) and then trying to divert to another target. Not convinced this is what he was doing? Here is the first line of his case on Forumite: On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote: Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite: Moving on to his "voteswitch" On September 04 2012 23:45 Hopeless1der wrote: 1.I never actually did vote in the first place, but anyways: ##Unvote: Forumite ##Vote: Mattchew 2.Reasoning: See the entire fucking thread. 1. - He never did vote Forumite. this reads to me exactly like he was trying to use his case to divert the Matt bandwagon, and after Palmar confirmed the fakeclaim, is trying to save face. (Funny how nobody seems to call him out for this voteswitch despite searching for defenders of Matt.) 2. - He doesn't seem to happy to be switching to a guaranteed fakeclaim that is very likely scum right here, odd. After Hopeless' vote has settled onto Mattchew I note 2 more things that read scummy to me. First, in these two posts (1)(2) Hopeless jumps at the chance to be the information provider, a very easy way to 'contribute' and with someone as inactive as Hopeless a definite scumtell. Second, On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote: This waffley statement is definitely something I would expect from scum.-snipped massive nested quotes- The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation. To sum up, I think Hopeless1der fits a reluctant busser that is trying to slide by extremely well and I want to lynch him ASAP. | ||
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off. You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times. | ||
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On September 05 2012 05:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote: You have one cycle. If you fail to contribute into the night period you should be vigi'd for not following through on your promise. All vigi's / hatters mark this target, if he fails to contribute please deal with him. so its been over 24 hours since this post and in that time he has made 3 posts, both of which were yesterday, IE when he wouldn't be traveling and has made 0 contributions since. His other two posts are both filler IMO and do not offer solid contributions. HE EVEN LEAVES HIS LAST POST WITH THIS LINE "Sleep time for me now; I'll actually have some rest by tomorrow and won't be travelling." So for a well rested person not moving around alot. His posting is horrific. I believe he is also a good vig shot or lynch for tommorrow. | ||
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:04 DoYouHas wrote: Now that we are sure about Matt, I think I have found scum in Hopeless1der. Hopeless and Broodking are the two people who posted cases on people other than Mattchew (Forumite and Toad, respectively) in the time period between when BC's attack and Palmar's confirmation. This I think is a very important period of time because the uncertainty of the town on how to deal with BC and Matt makes it the best time for scum to try and divert the wagon of their scumbuddy. Both Hopeless and Brood's cases could have been made with that intent, but I see Hopeless as scum easier than I see Brood. Brood had expressed his distaste for Toad earlier in the game and just doesn't fit the reluctant busser as well as Hopeless. I have already taken issue with some of his case on Forumite Here. But when you combine his case with the post he made a page earlier. You have to admit that it looks awfully like he is attacking BC (the main proponent of a Matt lynch) and then trying to divert to another target. Not convinced this is what he was doing? Here is the first line of his case on Forumite: Moving on to his "voteswitch" 1. - He never did vote Forumite. this reads to me exactly like he was trying to use his case to divert the Matt bandwagon, and after Palmar confirmed the fakeclaim, is trying to save face. (Funny how nobody seems to call him out for this voteswitch despite searching for defenders of Matt.) 2. - He doesn't seem to happy to be switching to a guaranteed fakeclaim that is very likely scum right here, odd. After Hopeless' vote has settled onto Mattchew I note 2 more things that read scummy to me. First, in these two posts (1)(2) Hopeless jumps at the chance to be the information provider, a very easy way to 'contribute' and with someone as inactive as Hopeless a definite scumtell. Second, This waffley statement is definitely something I would expect from scum. To sum up, I think Hopeless1der fits a reluctant busser that is trying to slide by extremely well and I want to lynch him ASAP. we should lynch doyouhas too, this is a post that was definitely posted in the scum qt a few times my intuition is flaring up like crazy over this | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:04 BlackMamba24 wrote: You're right, just because ottoxlol defended someone who flipped scum says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you paid attention, you'll notice that has very little to do with why I'm saying he's scum. I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off. You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times. Regarding MiltonKram - Let's drop the bad case. He's still lurking and hasn't contributed anything to the thread other than his case. How on earth do you think he's town? I understand Null, but Town?!? He even fits one of your categories quite well: 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts Regarding Ottoxlol - I was suspicious of him "not pushing his scumreads" as well, but upon a second readthrough, I find it more convincing that he got too caught up in his argument. He actually "pushes" Toadsstern quite a bit when you consider that he quotes and attacks a lot of Toad's posts whilst having his vote on Toad. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:06 BlackMamba24 wrote: we should lynch doyouhas too, this is a post that was definitely posted in the scum qt a few times my intuition is flaring up like crazy over this Your intuition is wrong. You should look into my past games before you make a gut read like this. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:06 BlackMamba24 wrote: we should lynch doyouhas too, this is a post that was definitely posted in the scum qt a few times my intuition is flaring up like crazy over this I would say the biggest reason I could agree with you here is he has lurked so fing hard then appeared to post this. Also I would like to point out sloosh is likely scum for his insane lack of posting with 0 explanation combined with his near 0 effort to help the town. In his 3 posts he has had since coming back into the thread after over 24 hours of absence he has said On September 06 2012 07:35 slOosh wrote: Cool. I think now is a good time for me to meander back into the thread and talk about good vig / lynch targets. This to me screams that he doesn't actually give a shit about this game. Meandering is a really bad word choice as its a essentially lazy movement. Given that the town Sloosh is generally a fairly hardworking and not lazy person this speaks horribly of him. He also rather than discussing ANY OF THE POSTS in the day and a bit he was gone, he wants to talk about good vig targets or future lynches.... WHY DOESNT HE GIVE HIS READS OR HIS TOP SCUM CALL WITH THIS. He was gone for long enough he should be posting gems of information but instead shows a complete lack of concern or any form of town leaning. On September 06 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote: Everyone shut up about Ottoxlol and let him cool down. There are much better targets, i.e. people who lurked the whole time after dropping their singular vote. I.e. DYH. And that maverick guy comes to mind. Fact is (most likely) that scum got caught with their pants down and panicked. You can probably pick off some scum from the voting frenzy after Palmar's announcement. Then it would be incredibly uncomfortable to start talking about scum buddy Mattchew, so you do next best thing, which is lurk. He now tells people to get off a player for no real reason, says we should look at people who lurked and dropped a vote then passes off two names. He spent enough time this game to find two people who fit this criteria yet doesn't even explain his own inactivity. Sloosh basically did the exact same thing the people he called out did. His next post is a defense post that says near nothing important. The first two posts since his return have in no way helped the town in any way. Given that I have seen him be a beast as town this is inexcusable. Sloosh for scum Ottoxlol for scum as well. Gravan for scum. | ||
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
Ottoxlol jumped on you immediately when you posted a picture like 10 seconds into the game before anything happened. On September 04 2012 07:34 Ottoxlol wrote: so many lurkers, no wonder scum is skewing the thread their way He's unreasonable and negative from the beginning. His case on Toadesstern consists of Toadesstern ignoring his questions but he did answer the questions. "Since no one made a case other than he's lying therefore scum. " This is untrue. He keeps repeating things like this that are false. Multiple people came up with other reasoning, especially me and BC. Later he lies and said I never explained my reasons even though I did, directly to him. He continues to get more and more belligerent. This is very odd behavior for someone who is simply defending "another townie". His only other attack on Toadesstern is "nice scum slip there". You think that counts as pushing? Sure, he was caught up in his argument but his argument was almost all straight up lying and ignoring people. He continues to say that no one has any reason and ignores me and BC saying over and over about Mattchew's lack of defense, lack of analysis, lack of any town actions behind his fake claim. You don't just look at a lie or a slip and lynch someone, but Mattchew had NOTHING that indicates a pro-town attitude behind it. Who gives up that quickly before the mod even confirmed the lie? Scum. It didn't make sense any other way but instead of finally responding to reasons beyond "he lied" he just ignores it and continues to say no one provided any. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:16 DoYouHas wrote: Your intuition is wrong. You should look into my past games before you make a gut read like this. It took you a day to make that giant analysis post? You had nothing to say in that entire time? Given how much you aren't posting and your previous posts in this game you posted something that looks heavily tailored. | ||
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
@DYH | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:19 BlackMamba24 wrote: So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas. Ottoxlol jumped on you immediately when you posted a picture like 10 seconds into the game before anything happened. He's unreasonable and negative from the beginning. His case on Toadesstern consists of Toadesstern ignoring his questions but he did answer the questions. "Since no one made a case other than he's lying therefore scum. " This is untrue. He keeps repeating things like this that are false. Multiple people came up with other reasoning, especially me and BC. Later he lies and said I never explained my reasons even though I did, directly to him. He continues to get more and more belligerent. This is very odd behavior for someone who is simply defending "another townie". His only other attack on Toadesstern is "nice scum slip there". You think that counts as pushing? Sure, he was caught up in his argument but his argument was almost all straight up lying and ignoring people. He continues to say that no one has any reason and ignores me and BC saying over and over about Mattchew's lack of defense, lack of analysis, lack of any town actions behind his fake claim. You don't just look at a lie or a slip and lynch someone, but Mattchew had NOTHING that indicates a pro-town attitude behind it. Who gives up that quickly before the mod even confirmed the lie? Scum. It didn't make sense any other way but instead of finally responding to reasons beyond "he lied" he just ignores it and continues to say no one provided any. We're interpreting Ottox's posts vastly differently here. Ignoring people and not reading the thread =/= scum (aren't you defending Mattchew on this basis?). Does Ottox seem like he's playing with extra information? Answer to that is no no and no. So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas. Mattchew is the definition of the playertype you criticized here: 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts ...yet you don't think he's suspicious at all? There's no sane reason for you not to find him suspicious given your own analysis. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:19 BloodyC0bbler wrote: It took you a day to make that giant analysis post? You had nothing to say in that entire time? Given how much you aren't posting and your previous posts in this game you posted something that looks heavily tailored. I've been thinking about Hopeless for a while now, but I was waiting for Matt's flip to put together the case (it wouldn't have held much water if he had flipped town). And yes, I am a slowish reader and it takes me hours to put together cases. I tailor them quite a bit. I understand you don't like me lurking. But at least address my case. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:27 DoYouHas wrote: I've been thinking about Hopeless for a while now, but I was waiting for Matt's flip to put together the case (it wouldn't have held much water if he had flipped town). And yes, I am a slowish reader and it takes me hours to put together cases. I tailor them quite a bit. I understand you don't like me lurking. But at least address my case. ? | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:27 DoYouHas wrote: I've been thinking about Hopeless for a while now, but I was waiting for Matt's flip to put together the case (it wouldn't have held much water if he had flipped town). And yes, I am a slowish reader and it takes me hours to put together cases. I tailor them quite a bit. I understand you don't like me lurking. But at least address my case. Not horrific considering I have my own reservations about him. Primarily his activity levels. However I also find it very unlikely that it took you this long to write up a case then refused to post it as you waited for mattchews flip. By admitting you tailor it alot then waited to post it for mattchews flip its almost as if you knew for certainty what he would flip and thus waited to avoid being suspicious. You also aimed for a player who has a very short filter and is incredibly easy to analyze. So the case while not bad is not good in the same light. If you keep posting and contributing my reservations on you will go away, and my view of your case far higher aside from "convenient" | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10855 Posts
Ottoxlol This guys is fairly obtuse and I am struggling to see much through the shitstorm he has created throughout day one. He seems to be fairly transparent in his claimed motivations behind defending matt. He states multiple times that he feels that there should be some discussion as to why matt is scum rather than blue/assassin and that scum were using his bandwagon as an excuse to stifle discussion day one. On September 04 2012 22:55 Ottoxlol wrote: This just provides an easy wagon to jump onto and removes d1 discussion as a whole, no town benefit from that. Just because he did not play well it doesnt mean he's scum. On September 05 2012 00:58 Ottoxlol wrote: I won't vote Matt because TL Mafia LIII. VE claimed Jailkeeper D1, I think that was the worst claim of all times. I made the first case on that, it was similar in a way that whether townVE or scumVE it was a very bad claim. We lynched him, and since almost everyone could easily vote on him without any reasoning we had no real info about anyone. Sounds familiar? On September 05 2012 09:40 Ottoxlol wrote: I can only see it as a very easy wagon. People jump on with zero discussion, zero contribution. So Ox's stated motivation behind at least Questioning the matt wagon seems plausible as town. He wants to discuss the case on Matt and stop it from being an easy wagon that scum can bus/hide on and to promote discussion. Yet his behaviour is at stark and direct opposition with his stated intention. He has absolutely crapped up the thread and actively limited discussion and scum hunting throughout day one. When I went to sleep yesterday the main topic of conversation were several people repeating themselves Ad nauseum and the direct consequence of this is that other topics of conversation have been drowned out in the noise. Now people may look at Ox and say that he is just a bad player or whatever, but when someone's stated motivations are in direct contradiction to his behaviour I see scum. His defense of mattchew was incredibly wishy-washy in that he never explicitly states that he believes him to be town. He talks in probabilities and shifts the burden of proof onto others by asking 'why is it more likely for scum to do this than town?' whilst ignoring all rational explanations for the current situation. He has been incredibly effective in making discussion of anything other than mattchew impossible whilst stating that this is what he wants to avoid. TLDR; Ox's behaviour is in direct contradiction with his stated motivations. He has crapped all over the thread in order to make any conversation but the one that was already resolved incredibly difficult. Kid is Scum. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:45 BlackMamba24 wrote: Vig ottoxlol I provided more reasoning than anybody regarding Mattchew and even reposted once or twice so he could see it but he continues to ignore all argument/reasoning and repeat the same lie that nobody ever explained why they voted for Mattchew, no one ever explained why he is scummy besides that he lied, etc. all untrue false bullshit that can be easily demonstrated Let's say you are town adn you think town is about to mislynch. What do you do? A) Repeat the same arguments, when you get answers for your questions, ignore them and attack/insult people responding to you. Vote for someone else but never really push the case. When the person flips scum continue to act as though your arguments were brilliant somehow even though you are now objectively wrong about everything. Attack everyone voting for this player. B) Explain why you think they are innocent. Find someone you think is scum and push them as much as you can. Listen to and consider the responses to your questions about the Mattchew lynch. After the lynch, try to see where your argument went wrong and reconsider your point of view. Yeah town players can be bad. They can be assholes. But there are clear scum motivations and tells in ottox's behavior. 1) Defends only by assaulting and attacking other players 2) Avoids real argument/discussion by ignoring other peoples posts, misrepresenting them (for instance, saying I never provided reasons for my vote when I was the first to do that) and insulting others. 3) Doesn't push an alternate case with any commitment. 4) Behavior/arguments have a clear conclusion that was determined beforehand and will never change. Suggests that he has objective knowledge of something or a clear agenda. There you go. That's enough. If Ottoxlol is not hit by a vigilante tonight which he should be, he is the absolute best lynch target for tomorrow. Period. Dude, what you are describing is just how a defensive crybaby player (aka SolarSail in XXIV and in DeathNote, who even managed to get modkilled) would play. Also, the bolded part just goes way too far. I don't see where how his behavior is suggestive of that at all. I've only played one game, and read a few. Defensive crybaby disruptive play does not serve as a main argument, it is mostly a side dish to go along with the main one. My stance on him is that he just says things without thinking. His defense on Matt could very well be this, and his pride won't let him back down, just as he doesn't back down from clearly flawed claims. This, along with his disruptive anti-town play is what gives me the reason for him to be the top lynch. Unlike you, however, I am not that comfortable on my vote on him. Please just go ahead and read SolarSail on XXIV and DeathNote and see why I'm hesitant to just bluntly say that OMG HE MUST DIE like you and some of you are saying. Also, this post from you is ridiculous: we should lynch doyouhas too, this is a post that was definitely posted in the scum qt a few times my intuition is flaring up like crazy over this You want to win this with intuition? How about logic. How about you tell me exactly what is scummy about this post. From my perspective, I think his points are lacking compared to some already made on other people, but he does bring something that is valid as an argument. Hopeless wasn't included in the list of "reluctant voters", and now, he might very well be. I don't think it is enough to convict someone as scum, but it is NOT more food for your suspicions on him, unless, of course, you grace us with an explanation. You want people to trust your "intuition"? And please stop begging vigi to kill someone. If you are mafia, you could be just as easily using the easiness of which it is to target Ox to make a vigi waste a shot on a townie. | ||
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