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btw random observation that might be worth sharing as I'm not sure what to make of it yet but it's interessting:
On September 05 2012 13:07 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 13:00 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 05 2012 12:59 BroodKingEXE wrote:That was guy number 2 I missed him on my reread of the filters. The end of his post is scummy imo sounds like he is trying to avoid modkill as opposed to helping the town. Interested in why he thinks Matt is assasin and still votes for him. Yep, that's the main problem I would have with him. Also, from your filter, you were pretty focused on Toad. Do you still find him suspicious?? No, his response was belivable based on posts he made after his sloosh interaction. Ottox has replaced him due to the fact that he is pushing a "Matt is an assasin/townie scheme" instead of pushing his scum read toad.
On September 05 2012 23:39 marvellosity wrote:
Updated
Vote Count:
Mattchew (21): The great unwashed
Toadesstern (2): BroodkingEXE, Ottoxlol
Yet to vote: Lvdr, Mattchew, Shady Sands
Important part of the quote in red. Nothing else changed. That's it for today for me
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On September 06 2012 08:42 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:41 Bill Murray wrote:
Regardless, Toad just majorly backtracked and EBWOPed because he called ottoxlol town and encouraged a vig... he's lying, and nervous about it, imo. I feel like he knows that ottoxlol would need a vig... toad has slipped up quite a bit, but i'm not 100% on him. no I did not backtrack. I said he's either mafia or he's town and in both cases he needs to die given the situation.
So you are saying that even if he is somehow confirmed town, he still needs to die?
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On September 06 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:42 Toadesstern wrote:On September 06 2012 08:41 Bill Murray wrote:
Regardless, Toad just majorly backtracked and EBWOPed because he called ottoxlol town and encouraged a vig... he's lying, and nervous about it, imo. I feel like he knows that ottoxlol would need a vig... toad has slipped up quite a bit, but i'm not 100% on him. no I did not backtrack. I said he's either mafia or he's town and in both cases he needs to die given the situation. So you are saying that even if he is somehow confirmed town, he still needs to die?
yeah
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Can anyone please comment on my case on Maverick? Not scumhunting and inconsistencies are the biggest scum tells from what I have gathered, and I think I've identified the first one quite strongly. Does anyone think that a townie Mav would post as he is???
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Also Is there any way that DH/BC are not town?
I was around when the interplay between the two went down and the simplest explanation being the best:
BC sees matt's claim and has asked the mod already if NN are self aware. Matt is lying ergo he is scum.
DH and others do not have this information and ask BC for evidence based on something other than what he has publicly stated, which was that he was making an assumption.
After some discussion it is clear that BC pushing for a matt mislynch in this way would be incredibly short sighted and that the situation would be resolved upon confirmation of the role.
Both town reacting differently based on the different information available to them. Simplest explanation is the best.
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Alright, I was really debating posting this earlier, but held off on it because I thought I could have had confirmation bias. I was suspicious of DYH since the starting hours of the game, but I didn't know if it was a hunch from playing many games with him (meta) or objectively scummy posts. So I waited off to see what he would do.
On September 04 2012 08:41 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:36 DoYouHas wrote:On September 04 2012 08:23 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:22 DoYouHas wrote:
slOosh, my vote is neither stupid nor a throwaway. I have a friend who I consider a better player than me who has told me that getting BM out of the game quickly is always a good thing. It is meta as hell but it isn't stupid.
Toad's aggression towards you is completely null. You seem to be playing into your town meta so far, but I really won't know for sure until your first/second case. Your comment on Toad's aggression doesn't really mean much since he explained himself. What is my town meta and how am I playing to it? Your town meta from when I have played with you is to herd the rest of the town. Pointing out information (like with the 2kp thing) and taking issue with not just the content of posts but the style. You try to make the town play how YOU want them to play. The rest of your meta doesn't really come into play until cases start being made. I am making note that you just used me to defend yourself though, which I do not like. And Toad's aggression isn't null because he explained it. It is null because it is. Either alignment has plenty of cause to go after you like Toad did. Scum could want to start the mudslinging early and look aggressive and confident. Town may have just not liked what you wrote. Where did I do that? And your response to Toad's aggression is itself null for you, regardless of what it is for him. On September 06 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote:
Everyone shut up about Ottoxlol and let him cool down. There are much better targets, i.e. people who lurked the whole time after dropping their singular vote. I.e. DYH. And that maverick guy comes to mind.
Fact is (most likely) that scum got caught with their pants down and panicked. You can probably pick off some scum from the voting frenzy after Palmar's announcement. Then it would be incredibly uncomfortable to start talking about scum buddy Mattchew, so you do next best thing, which is lurk.
He is ignoring me when there is no reason to. His posting indicates that he places some value in my posting ("I think slOosh put it best" as justification for lynch) yet when I call him out like that he doesn't try to come to an agreement with me. Rather he ignores it completely. We have a history of like ~5 games together and we value each other's reads. In this game there is a clear contradiction - "slOosh has good reasoning for voting Mattchew that I agree with, but I'm going to ignore the fact that he thinks I'm scum".
The post that stuck out to me as "is it hunch or is it objective?" was his vote on Mattchew:
On September 04 2012 14:22 DoYouHas wrote:
@Hopeless - Forumite is right, if Mattchew was tracked to a night kill we would lynch him in spite of the claim. The coincidence is too high. Also, assuming we have trackers (which would be the only reliable way to verify the claim) you are spending 1-2 night actions from a valuable info-role confirming a townie (which would then have to somehow be conveyed to the rest of the town) instead of scumhunting.
A self-aware miller role claiming this early serves one function, to get the WIFOM circus rolling and possibly tie up night actions.
I don't see a blue or green role claiming nosy neighbor. It increases the chances the town will lynch you if you are blue. And as a green (whether VT or NN) you wouldn't want to tie up the town's discussion with WIFOM on the unlikely chance that later in the game you will be mis-attributed with a NK (not to mention you could claim NN then).
I'm pretty comfortable getting behind the Mattchew bandwagon.
##Unvote
##Vote: Mattchew
This came when BC was screaming that Mattchew was a liar. A liar. A liar. However he approaches it from a "does it make sense to claim as a self-aware miller?" perspective, which makes me believe that this is scum overcompensating for an otherwise very clear cut vote.
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Boson, Ottoxlol still has to respond to me how he came up with 5 red as the team size. Its not in the OP and no mod has come into thread clarifying thus it is unlikely they have decided how to respond to it yet.
Basically, as you guys all know how I caught mattchew day 1? Well until a mod comes in and clears him by saying the mafia # is something not 5 hes mafia. As of right now, the only people who have the actual mafia size # are mafia thus I believe it was an unintentional slip by him, but one that is unsurprising giving the heat he was taking.
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On September 06 2012 09:44 DarthPunk wrote:
Also Is there any way that DH/BC are not town?
I was around when the interplay between the two went down and the simplest explanation being the best:
BC sees matt's claim and has asked the mod already if NN are self aware. Matt is lying ergo he is scum.
DH and others do not have this information and ask BC for evidence based on something other than what he has publicly stated, which was that he was making an assumption.
After some discussion it is clear that BC pushing for a matt mislynch in this way would be incredibly short sighted and that the situation would be resolved upon confirmation of the role.
Both town reacting differently based on the different information available to them. Simplest explanation is the best.
I toyed with the idea and it is most likely that they are town, for if it was scum orchestrated they would have done a much, MUCH better job at capitalizing. Instead, the Mattchew claim sundered town and put immense pressure on the scum team. Could BC have gone rogue to sack his whole team in order to gain towncred? No. DH I was thinking his suspicions on BC both before the announcement and after the flip, but his general demeanor shows he cares about town and getting stuff right, making the prior stuff more likely paranoia / extra-critical thinking.
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Sloosh just said BC and Dr.H were both town
if he's red, he just pulled a mattchew. I have to read these last few pages of walls, and i'm a bit busy right now, but i'll be back shortly.
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On September 06 2012 09:46 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Boson, Ottoxlol still has to respond to me how he came up with 5 red as the team size. Its not in the OP and no mod has come into thread clarifying thus it is unlikely they have decided how to respond to it yet.
Basically, as you guys all know how I caught mattchew day 1? Well until a mod comes in and clears him by saying the mafia # is something not 5 hes mafia. As of right now, the only people who have the actual mafia size # are mafia thus I believe it was an unintentional slip by him, but one that is unsurprising giving the heat he was taking.
Holy shit, I hadn't seen this. Ok, I'm absolutely set on voting against him, should he not die. Nice catch.
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On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang.
For those who missed it the first time.
He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game.
But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers.
Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5.
Burn him with fire.
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On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire.
Damn BC you're on a roll, though that slip isn't 100% confirmed mafia but adding that with the other bs he said definitely scum.
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On September 06 2012 09:46 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Boson, Ottoxlol still has to respond to me how he came up with 5 red as the team size. Its not in the OP and no mod has come into thread clarifying thus it is unlikely they have decided how to respond to it yet.
Basically, as you guys all know how I caught mattchew day 1? Well until a mod comes in and clears him by saying the mafia # is something not 5 hes mafia. As of right now, the only people who have the actual mafia size # are mafia thus I believe it was an unintentional slip by him, but one that is unsurprising giving the heat he was taking.
Wow.
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BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
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On September 06 2012 09:55 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire. Damn BC you're on a roll, though that slip isn't 100% confirmed mafia but adding that with the other bs he said definitely scum.
Well, it isn't 100% confirmed mafia, but given that it is not information town is able to currently have it seems horrific for otto. I mean if Town are not able to have this information, why the hell did he use wording that heavily suggests he knows the #.
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On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire.
Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town.
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On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
yo smurf man, get on your smurf.
Also everything DrH has said is correct IMO on otto. Just read his posts please. I really do not feel like having to repeat things intelligent players are saying as you guys refuse to read their shit.
Given that at this point in time drH and I have done near the most to prove we are town I honestly think people should properly be reading our posts.
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On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now?
I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail.
However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make.
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On September 06 2012 09:59 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town.
Really? Matt, Hapa, Toad, +2.
I really don't understand why you are defending this guy so hard, When you have been really quick to jump all over far less scummy players IMO.
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On September 06 2012 09:59 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town.
Disagree. He clearly states defending their mates by not allowing the discussion to go on. The only person the discussion "defended" was mattchew. You nor toad were from what I read were defending a ton of people by shutting down that conversation, you were trying to stop dealing with a troll. The only person who was being defended in that entire conversation (by otto) was mattchew.
We know mattchew was red, he gave 2 people ahead 2 people behind. I honestly believe its a scumslip I could have horribly misread it and if so I am certain more than you will inform me as such, however take this and apply it to everything said about otto by players like drH. Do you honestly see him otto as town? Can you explain his behaviour at all as something a town member would do. I sure as hell can't.
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EPT
