|
idk why hapahaui is saying im defending mattchew
i assume he means miltonkram
i just don't see what makes miltonkram so scummy. he seems like a towny/null lurker to me whereas there are very clear and obvious scum motivations and behaviors behind ottox's posts. I understand he's lurky and not particularly town looking but nothing close to ottox bad and there's nothing there besides a single slip up in his reading that makes me think "Yeah, he's scum." Stop obsessing, keep the pressure on him for a while longer when he starts posting again and then maybe something will happen.
again, regarding ottox maybe people will listen or understand this time -
1. Ignores argument/responses to his questions. Begins looking pro-town but does not acknowledge any of the many answers he is given and becomes more and more belligerent. This is the main problem. HEre's what happens:
Ottox - Why is maverick scummy?
Me/BC - Because he didn't defend himself, no scumhunting, completely inactive after being accused, etc. (I even bullet pointed the scummy things about Mattchew that were besides his lie and reposted it for ottox to read)
Ottox - No one is answering my question hurr
2. Trolls early game to give everyone a null read
3. Doesn't commit to Toadesstern. Aside from his initial case, he only calls Toadesstern out once. He doesn't commit.
4. Is behaving as though he WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. Mattchew flips red and he's still acting like we're all a bunch of idiots. This doesn't connect.
Could I be wrong and he could be a crybaby idiot town like youngminii or something? Sure. But I doubt it.
|
Ok Ottoxlol makes a better vig than DYH.
|
On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make.
the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5
|
EBWOP should say "Why is mattchew scummy" not "why is maverick scummy" earlier
|
Wait hold up guys, I don't think that's a slip.
Mind you this all occurs before the flip. At that time, Ottox doesn't think Mattchew is town (hence his vote on Toadsstern and defends of Mattchew).
He calls Me and Toad two scum, and then 2 other scum lurkers.
That's only 4 scum, and given how unlikely there are only 4 scum in a game of this size, I think it's him more not writing well than anything else.
|
@BC and Toad - I disagree. If Matt wasn't red then Hopeless' actions no longer are an attempt to divert a bandwagon on scum. At least half my case is showing that he did exactly that. If Matt was green then Hopeless' case on Forumite becomes far more innocuous.
Also, I didn't write it and then wait for the flip, then delay posting it. I didn't start writing it until after the flip.
@slOosh - IIRC getting into back and forths with you has ended up in my being lynched as townie twice. I dropped out of our discussion after I had my read on you. I know what it will take to change that read, and it doesn't involve me interacting with you. I do think it is kind of amusing that you have tried prying at me because you know what my meta is better than anyone else in this game, while I haven't bothered dealing with you because I know yours better than almost anyone.
|
On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5
I was assuming between 5 and 6 myself. The issue being its an assumption. You and I both know that word choice on information you aren't certain of but is gotten via setup types in the past or "this is how I would balance this game" or the like is something that normally carries through. Do I think it is the worst thing otto has done? No, but as grush said. Apply it to everything else he has said, apply it to when he said it (ie right after everyone started pressuring him as opposed to arguing with him) and it feels horrifically off.
Trust me, I agree with your reasoning as well I just see that as the item that puts him at guarenteed scum. Hell the guy has just ditched thread completely more or less when the pressure hit him.
|
On September 06 2012 10:04 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town. Really? Matt, Hapa, Toad, +2. I really don't understand why you are defending this guy so hard, When you have been really quick to jump all over far less scummy players IMO.
NVM I didn't read your post properly. If this was done in the context of matt being town this is far less of a sure thing than I thought it was. My bad.
|
I agree that Otto should take precedence over Hopeless. But I still think I'm right with him.
|
On September 06 2012 10:08 DoYouHas wrote:
@slOosh - IIRC getting into back and forths with you has ended up in my being lynched as townie twice. I dropped out of our discussion after I had my read on you. I know what it will take to change that read, and it doesn't involve me interacting with you. I do think it is kind of amusing that you have tried prying at me because you know what my meta is better than anyone else in this game, while I haven't bothered dealing with you because I know yours better than almost anyone.
If anything this strengthens my case. Either you think me scum or town. I infer from the posts in thread that you think I'm town. If indeed you think this, then you should be concerned that I think you are scum. There is a blaring contradiction in your words and your actions.
Now will you actually address my posts?
|
On September 06 2012 10:08 DoYouHas wrote:
@BC and Toad - I disagree. If Matt wasn't red then Hopeless' actions no longer are an attempt to divert a bandwagon on scum. At least half my case is showing that he did exactly that. If Matt was green then Hopeless' case on Forumite becomes far more innocuous.
Also, I didn't write it and then wait for the flip, then delay posting it. I didn't start writing it until after the flip.
@slOosh - IIRC getting into back and forths with you has ended up in my being lynched as townie twice. I dropped out of our discussion after I had my read on you. I know what it will take to change that read, and it doesn't involve me interacting with you. I do think it is kind of amusing that you have tried prying at me because you know what my meta is better than anyone else in this game, while I haven't bothered dealing with you because I know yours better than almost anyone.
The posts you quoted at actually insanely bad regardless of mattchews flip. You can remove the section of him trying to divert the lynch and just analyze the posts.
-Horribly inactive
-Fake voted
-has done no real analysis
-rehashed info (scum trait normally but not an indicator alone)
You remove one bit and your analysis still holds. The guy still looks bad and mattchews flip was not required.
|
On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5
Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added.
Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip".
I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717
It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play.
At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die.
|
I think Bill Murray is scum.
Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head.
This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing.
The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion).
+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this:
Matt got caught
Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot
Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list
so is gravan
you openly coached him
Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter
On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU.
Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him?
2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other)
His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig.
Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time.
|
Where is Shady? He had a 5 page filter Day One in my last game with him and loves to take a town leadership position right off the bat as town. I can understand your meta changing somewhat in a non-newbie/ game of this size. But this is a dramatic shift in style.
|
On September 06 2012 10:15 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5 Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play. At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die.
I honestly cannot see otoxlol as town. His behaviour seems like one where if he dropped it he'd be shanked instantly and his only hope was coming off as a belligerent asshole and thus left alone.
|
On September 06 2012 10:15 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5 Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play. At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die.
Also I did endorse all of what he said so drH saying I repeated it isn't a lie. I also added the bit that I see as a scumslip.
|
On September 06 2012 10:16 Gravan wrote:I think Bill Murray is scum. Show nested quote +Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing. The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion). + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this:
Matt got caught
Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me. + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list
so is gravan
you openly coached him Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter
On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU.
Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him?
2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other) His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig. Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time.
This is the worst case I've ever seen.
|
On September 06 2012 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:
Where is Shady? He had a 5 page filter Day One in my last game with him and loves to take a town leadership position right off the bat as town. I can understand your meta changing somewhat in a non-newbie/ game of this size. But this is a dramatic shift in style.
Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle.
|
On September 06 2012 10:15 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5 Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play. At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die.
I really don't see how meta analysis of other players helps derive any insight into Otto's play other than that people can be retarded. Which everyone already knows.
|
On September 06 2012 10:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:
Where is Shady? He had a 5 page filter Day One in my last game with him and loves to take a town leadership position right off the bat as town. I can understand your meta changing somewhat in a non-newbie/ game of this size. But this is a dramatic shift in style. Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle.
NMM XXIV His Filter
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
