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On September 05 2012 10:37 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 10:30 Toadesstern wrote:On September 05 2012 10:26 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 05 2012 10:19 Toadesstern wrote:On September 05 2012 09:59 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 05 2012 09:48 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:47 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 05 2012 09:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 09:32 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 05 2012 09:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
[quote]
Think of it this way. It was a question never answered by Palmar in thread.
Now, most people (even if self aware miller) tend to not claim as even if they do claim people tend to not take them seriously unless a group of them does it. Now, when one person claims, you can gauge the towns reaction and then to prove that millers are self aware the scum team slowly "claims". Basically you can have an entire team or 2-3 people out themselves in this manner and be given a full get out of lynch free card should the people they visit die for a night or two. This may not seem to be much but it means later on in the game people start arguing about if the claims are legit, are only some of them legit, etc....
It makes no sense for town to fakeclaim but in an setup that was so ambiguous it would be a brilliant move if you could pull it off. My only frustration is I could have potentially snagged more than just him had I waited longer before calling him out. why would they get out of any lynch if someone they visited died? 2-3 people claim nosy. Tracker or watcher sees one of them go to someone who dies. They claimed nosy, we accepted the claim as legit. It means an entire day will be spent clusterfucked around who did what or the like. As they claim nosy, if its accepted near no tracker will check them so only a watcher will see them and if he sees 2 people visit someone who dies the non claimer will be the one killed. Even if you figure out that 1 person lied, you won't know if the others did as we have no idea on the setup numbers. As such the likelyhood of town offing them is insanely lowered unless they get bad luck by being seen by a watcher where only they visit x player. Watcher see 2 ppl over a dead body, one of them claimed noisy. lynch the other, if he flips not red vig/rb the fake noisy Which is the same thing that would happen if he was a blue fakeclaiming nosy isn't it? Unless he has a visiting role there's no reason to claim nosy neighbor like that and your scenario still applies. No one is denying that what he did was stupid but I've seen scum do much dumber things than this So we agree it was dumb. Now tell me how come everyone thinks it is a dumb scum play, not a dumb assa or blue? Don't forget he asked the other millers to claim. That can work as assassin for instance. Or baiting a scum RB to claim? IDK. All I know it gave scum a very easy D1, some ppl attacking others for defending Matt, but ignoring me. What is that about? Okay I'll try it a last time. Starting with stuff that is fast to explain and not with stuff that came first in your question: He wanted other people to claim:That's a null. That either means he's a townie and thinks claiming is the right thing to do for a NN, or he tried to lay a trap because he thinks it's the right thing to do for a NN, or he is mafia and thinks it's the right thing to do for a townie-NN. The important thing is that in ALL scenarios he thinks it's the right thing to do. All you get out of that is that Matt honestly thought it's a good move. Which isn't suprising considering that he claimed to begin with. Why not a dumb blue move:What you are suggesting is that he's a blue who is deliberately causing chaos, trying to get himself lynched and to go out with a bang with someone else, possibly a couple of cycles (at least one though) later wastomg at least 2 full cycles or if things go wrong wasting even more time while causing chaos WITHOUT actually lynching a mafia after a couple of cycles while still having ruined the discussion of multiple cycles because clearly everyone would be talking about his move only. Yeah I don't really see that happening, as already mentioned. Could he be an AssaSure, could be, however it's pretty obvious he's EITHER Assa or mafia and never ever a townie. Lynching into "either assa or mafia" seems like a good deal to me. It gave scum an easy d1So because he gave scum an incredible easy d1 you consider him more likely to be town? I don't see how that logic is working. Furthermore I don't think had an easy d1 no matter what Matt flips. We had an incredible good first half of d1. I've never seen a game start this quickly. You are so funny. It is bad for scum, it is bad for assa, it is bad for blue. It is bad. I did not asked that. I know it. You failed to answer my question (why is it more probable to do this as scum? it is bad for scum too.) for the xth time, I guess its better if you ignore me from now on, we clearly don't speak the same language. because it is bad for town in 100% of the cases. It never ends up being good. It can work for mafia and end up good or be bad. The question isn't wether or not it was good. The question is why he wanted to claim. He wanted to claim because he thought it's a good idea. That's the whole point you're ignoring. You keep on telling people "well herpa derpa but you see how horrible it went". Noone cares about it because that has nothing to do with the situation. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 01:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I could maaaaaaybe see him fakeclaim as tracker on purpose IF he knew millers are not self-aware to lure out additional fakeclaims but I don't really see that giving his answers. And if that really was the case it'd be the most stupid kind of play I've ever seen.
Nice slip there scum. Assa could have a plan to get the other assa to claim also so he checks the claims.
Well I said "maaaaaaaaybe" with a shitton of "a" in there for a reason.
It's on the same level as the dude who fakeclaimed a red-check on a mod-confirmed blue in AC as a townie. It's 100% wrong. It's 100% retarded but sadly only 99% of the people realize this and there's always this one dude who thinks it's good to play against his wincon.
That's the "maaaaaaybe" chance I'm giving him.
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On September 05 2012 10:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
can you just shut up ottox, it gets annoying to see you harping around the same obvious nonsense all thread long....
Welcome back ShiaoPi - any scumreads besides mattchew?
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On September 05 2012 10:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
can you just shut up ottox, it gets annoying to see you harping around the same obvious nonsense all thread long....
nice post, off to sleep so you can lurk in peace for a while now
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On September 05 2012 10:18 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Z-BoSoN hasn't posted since heaping suspicion on BC and from what I recall of at least the Death Note Obs QT he is quite attentive and active on TL, reading and updating himself a lot.
I'm here. Still catching up, lots of posts to go over.
Will exercise and post soon.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@Ottox: thanks, have a good night and just cut it >_>
@Hapa: Besides the ones that have been called out already (e.g. Ottox, goodkarma, Milton, all leaning scum for me, maybe with the exception of Ottox...) I do not really have some at the moment. Austin is way more inactive from the town-austin I know but that's a kind of weak meta argument right now.
Also I am still waiting on Gravan
On September 05 2012 09:38 Gravan wrote:
The post where I make my comments on the information currently present (as in, not to do with the matt bandwagon) is coming up later. I just wanted to put down somehing somewhat solid so thanI can start to develop a post hostory, watery as it might be.
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On September 05 2012 10:55 ShiaoPi wrote:@Ottox: thanks, have a good night and just cut it >_> @Hapa: Besides the ones that have been called out already (e.g. Ottox, goodkarma, Milton, all leaning scum for me, maybe with the exception of Ottox...) I do not really have some at the moment. Austin is way more inactive from the town-austin I know but that's a kind of weak meta argument right now. Also I am still waiting on Gravan Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:38 Gravan wrote:
The post where I make my comments on the information currently present (as in, not to do with the matt bandwagon) is coming up later. I just wanted to put down somehing somewhat solid so thanI can start to develop a post hostory, watery as it might be.
Surely there's one or two that stick out to you in particular?
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Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread.
Why do people fakevote, then say "lol, I never really voted!" It´s irritating. Making a vote in this thread might not count but I think it´s bad form. Similarly it´s bad to stealthvote in the other thread without confirming it here. If you want to pressurevote, do it for real.
@BM
On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote:
I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum.
With Matt looking more and more scummy, do you still accuse me of fishing for his role? Your FoS seem to rely on Matt being a townie, which he´s probably not.
On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote:
Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs. One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On September 05 2012 10:58 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 10:55 ShiaoPi wrote:@Ottox: thanks, have a good night and just cut it >_> @Hapa: Besides the ones that have been called out already (e.g. Ottox, goodkarma, Milton, all leaning scum for me, maybe with the exception of Ottox...) I do not really have some at the moment. Austin is way more inactive from the town-austin I know but that's a kind of weak meta argument right now. Also I am still waiting on Gravan On September 05 2012 09:38 Gravan wrote:
The post where I make my comments on the information currently present (as in, not to do with the matt bandwagon) is coming up later. I just wanted to put down somehing somewhat solid so thanI can start to develop a post hostory, watery as it might be. Surely there's one or two that stick out to you in particular?
Uhn, no not really at moment, also my provider is screwing with my Internet -.- cant really do any reread when I need like 10minutes to switch pages...
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@Everyone:
-First, I didn't understand the vote on Clobber. Maybe I'm "dense," as I really still don't. My understanding was Clobber's original case against Mattchew was based on his personal experience of how game mechanics worked in prior games. Then Mamba turns around and says that making a read like that based on experience is inherantly scummy and deserves a vote... This felt hasty to me, and scummy. Tbh, it still does. As scum, I don't understand what Clobber's motivation would be to accuse Mattchew as he did, as he'd be afraid of the implications if he was wrong (what he stated could be easily checked by others). It would be a risky move with no real reward. I still don't see how the vote for Clobber by Mamba was really justified...
Second, yes. I am guilty of switching grush and Gravan's names when making my post. These are both players I have never played with, and, honestly, in the back of my mind they were both lurkers with too little content to get a good read from. Hopefully you can understand how I switched names, as they are quite similar.
I have seen several semi-lurkers this game, and with a secured scum lynch (Yes, I am 100% sure Mattchew is scum.), I felt now was a good time to pressure people who hadn't been proactive already to become involved in hunting scum.
@BlackMamba:
On September 05 2012 09:51 BlackMamba24 wrote:
GoodKarma - are you going to vote for mattchew right now?
GoodKarma is scum for this reason - he says that mattchew is confirmed scum but then doesn't vote for him and tries to push suspicion onto me instead, appeals to BC (buddying up to a vet, classic newbie scum)
basically the same as treehugger or whoever in tl mafia xxx who says "yeah youngminii is scum for sure but im not gonna vote for him and instead make a case on this random dude"
I already voted for Mattchew. Maybe you should read my filter... Feel free to OMGUS me if you wish, but I really still don't follow how Clobber's early actions were clearly scum-motivated and deserved a vote.
And while it seems that "veterans" seem to have extra clout here, I will not withdraw my FoS as all I see from Mamba is an OMGUS. I still don't understand refusing to share reads. If you're not going to share them could you at least explain to me how, from a town perspective, mentioning people you have reads on and then refusing to share them is ever a good idea? I don't understand this.
And regarding Hapa:
Hapa is someone who I played with in NMM XXIII. My "meta read": he has always been the type of player who tunnels one player until he is satisfied they are either scum or town. As such, I don't have a strong read on him right now since he is playing similarly this game.
He has made what I perceive as a few "scumslips," but I try to focus on scum motivation rather than on slips as "scumslips" are a good way to get town mislynched (as both scum and town make them) whereas if you can pin scum motivation on someone you're much more likely to lynch the right guy. I don't see scum motivation behind his play right now.
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Allright, I finished going over the thread. I posted responses as I saw them, without reading further. As I kept reading I saw that a lot of people already adressed some of my points, but I've decided I'll keep them here anyways, because it strengthens the read, should you take my word that I wrote them right after reading each post.
Oxttoliol
First of all, Ox is still reluctant to conclude that Mattchew is most likely scum. He reads poorly, and spent the last 8 pages annoying us with this and trading slaps with Toad, and in my point of view, this is completely counter-productive. He has not made any other points or comments regarding anything else, at all. I don't know why he is so insistent on this, but I am not willing to dismiss him as a concerned townie rather than scum just because he is defending a probable scum. He reminds me a lot of SolarSail in his two previous games.
Milton
On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa?
Like Ox, his focus has just been nagging at hapa all game, based on a soft-defending argument that's hardly conclusive.
However, I don't agree with hapa that that's a strong indicative of scum, it looks more to me like an attempt to make a case. Now that he has finally backed off, he can surely show us that he's worried about scumhunting and will present us with other concerns.
goodkarma
Holy godamn inconsistency. Lord, I just have to extract simple quotes to show just how contradictory you are:
I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea.
##FoS: BlackMamba
And your latest post is so full of crap....
On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote:
I would agree with Hapa that Mattchew is almost a 100% scum read. He's done a good job of highlighting why.
But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2.
Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste.
On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons.
As for things that have stood out to me:
-Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum.
-BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one.
Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here:
I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town.
##FoS: BlackMamba
I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share.
Grush has made a few posts. Lvdr, on the other hand, hasn't posted at all!
Also, Hapa didn't make the case - Sloosh did.
You are also basically attacking BM because he attacks cobbler and that he's not giving us his sloosh/toad reads. Had you actually been reading, this is because there was a confusion regarding noisy neighbors' self-awareness, and it wasn't with "little reason", as far as I remember, he explained why he attacked BC.
Also, if someone doesn't give a read you ask, then he is scum? There are many better ways to find scum than this.
Granted he's actually posting three times as much as you AND the fact that you said you disagree on going after active townies, your post has been quite suspicious. You demonstrate a lack of reading and a lack of consistency.
Rewin + Gravan
ENOUGH about mattchew. We don't need anymore people saying why they think it's ok to lynch him. Can you not find a better way to participate?
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Wow, I missed it, I was looking for it on the second page. You actually voted right before I did. LOL I withdraw everything, sorry for being so careless.
Anyway, reads are useless because it doesn't lead to anything. It doesn't pressure anybody and it won't get someone lynched. Why should I make a post with just a list of people and then my best guess to their alignment? Who does that help? I think it's stupid.
Like your whole thing about Hapa is just worthless. You think maybe he's town maybe he's scum but you don't really see it either way and have no strong read. What the hell is the point of that? How does that help us lynch scum? It doesn't. Therefore it's worthless. The only reason reads would be useful would be as part of pressuring a suspected scum, you want to know what they think and find inconsistencies. I think I've made it fairly obvious what my general stance is this game without making any kind of ridiculous post full of reads and bullet points. I just don't like that.
Anyway, BloodyC0bbler just explained to you why his actions were scummy. Basically he called out a player out on a lie to start a bandwagon and failed to provide proof. This means, at least to me, that he must have had privileged information and generally people with privileged information Day 1 are scum. He kept going on and on about Mattchew but couldn't provide evidence. No one believed him, I was the only person to be aggressive about it but then I realized he just couldn't say how he knew since he knew from a mod PM and that's when I backed off. Does that make sense? I still think BC might be scum though.
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He has made what I perceive as a few "scumslips," but I try to focus on scum motivation rather than on slips as "scumslips" are a good way to get town mislynched (as both scum and town make them) whereas if you can pin scum motivation on someone you're much more likely to lynch the right guy. I don't see scum motivation behind his play right now.
Care to elaborate?
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@BM
Why do you still think he might be scum? Don't you think this will depend on the Mattchew lynch?
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I have bad spamming habits but basically my stance against reads as town is that I don't want to post anything that isn't going to provide direct pressure/focus on a single player or lead to scum slipping up or getting lynched. I'm fine defending/explaining myself but beyond that, I don't really like to come in and say "Hey here's a summary of my thoughts" because no one really needs to or should know what I'm thinking. If I post my reads prematurely, it can tip off scum to where I'm going and they can manipulate me or stop acting suspiciously if they know I'm on to them before I have a strong case.
Mafia can post their "reads" all game and blend in without ever taking a real stance of pushing anyone. People who just come in every day to say "Hey guys, all caught up now. Anyway here's my thoughts:
Player x - Has a good argument but at the same time so do other people...hmmm not really sure leaning scum/town
Player y - Leaning scum. Kinda lurky. Lurkers need to post. Blahblahblah
Player z - Has been really aggressive but could be scum disrupting but also sometimes townies are aggressive and fearless so I'm not really sure"
It's rarely as obvious as that ^ but TL towns are stupid as hell so mafia can post useless bullshit like that all day and get away with it and I want to discourage people from posting thoughtless tiny summaries of their "reads" and actually try
even though I say that I am probably the laziest player ever, I almost never reaad the rules/setup of any game I'm in and rarely look at peoples filters and I react really prematurely to stuff. I should point out that it's consistent with my town meta, mafia that know me well usually make plans to distract me by attacking me or playing badly because it throws me off so bad that i can't scumhunt well
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Also, I should have originally quoted this as it got buried, and the "I agree with Hapa" statement seems to have caused confusion. And just because I agree with Hapa here, do not assume that I feel Hapa is town. I have already stated that the Mattchew lynch was pushed by Clobber.:
On September 05 2012 06:40 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 04:18 strongandbig wrote:On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. looks like you and me in the thread, toad. You do science, right? You just sitting around taking data too? Anyway, I just reread this post. Thought it was interesting that no one had commented on it yet. I certainly agree that misrepresenting history in posts to make your cases seem stronger is a scummy trait, but I'm not sure if that by itself is enough to call him scum#2 like that. However, given that it's milton's only post, it does draw attention. I'd like to hear something from Milton: - do you still think hapa is scum? - what do you have to say about his accusation that you misrepresented the facts? - do you think he was right or wrong about darthpunk? Does that matter to your read on hapa himself? Certainly it's not a 100% scumread, but it's pretty damn close. There's literally no townie motivation to lie to cast suspicion on someone. If it was simply a bad case (poor logic, whatever), it could come from a townie no problem. However, falsifying information is a different matter, and every player I've seen do so in one of my games has flipped mafia. His relative lurkiness doesn't help his case either. He had one or two fluffposts, then immediately came in on the mattchew bandwagon whilst simultaneously accusing me of being suspicious. Looks pretty damn scummy to me. Also interesting that he ignored that post until you brought it up SnB... hmmm?
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@ GoodKarma
BM24 had voted BloodyCobbler for withholding information from the town at the time. BC was deliberately withholding his read from the town and asking other players to "see the logic". Several players (including BM24 and myself) were pretty upset at this, and BM24 voted for BC. This was wholly reasonable IMO.
Though I find it funny that you don't acknowledge the key rationale for BM24's vote on BC, then turn around and use the very same logic against BM24 - "withholding information from the town."
In fact the logic of that entire post is pretty terrible.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=29#561
tl;dr
"here are a bunch of semi-lurkers"
"I'm suspicious of BM24"
Lastly, wtf is that section on me about? I've "scumslipped" yet I'm townie? Where are my "scumslips?" What does your read even do?
Also... semantics: you switched Grush and Lvdr... NOT Grush and Gravan.
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He's not using the same logic, I think he genuinely misunderstands why I voted for BC
and new players have all been taught by other bad townies that posting a lot and posting your reads is good when it's trash so i'm not surprised
i drop the fos on him completely, goodkarma isn't scum or at least if he is he hasn't revealed himself yet
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On September 05 2012 09:28 Hapahauli wrote:
@ BM24
Does Ottoxlol's defense of Mattchew make him likely-mafia? While I consider his arguments insane (at best), I'd imagine that mafia are in full-bus mode on Mattchew no? I just don't see the mafia motive in going against the entire town to defend a guy who's basically confirmed scum.
Regarding MiltonKram - I think the key difference between his case and your case in DN Mini (tunneling you for that long was a horrible play on my part) is the presence of misleading evidence. In the DN Mini, your case wasn't good (D1 Caveats of course) but it wasn't misleading. MiltonKram not only tried to point out a third party, but used false evidence. I think there's a high chance he's mafia.
Now he could be a townie who made a bad play, but I find it unlikely given the content and timing of his suspicions. I also find it amusing that every time someone calls him out, he seems to fly into the thread, but is hush-hush otherwise.
Reading the thread im sensing a lot of doubt in the thread, Mafia could be going for some kind of lurker lynch. Its risky, but I count about two to three people with doubt and if Matt is scum + power role it would be worth it. Another thing is that one scum maybe hiding among the doubters to feed the fire. Going to look into that now.
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Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched.
What can we conclude if he flips scum or town?
In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi
Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed?
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EPT
