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Okay, finally home and what do I see? And bandwaggon on me :D
I agree that my lurking is awful town play and I should be far more active to prove my role as a helpful townie. Please excuse the excessive lurking as it was indeed an urgent rl matter which prevented me from posting and following the thread more closely.
I'll go through all the accusation posts by you first before trying to see if I can make a case on any player for scummy behaviour myself.
On June 01 2012 18:51 Miltonkram wrote:Second post: Show nested quote +I have been out all day and will only be back later. I'll catch up with the thread then! He only posts this after there has been several mentions of his name. If he's been out all day, how come he's back in the thread just a few hours after people have been threatening him? And to post that?
I came back home, skimmed through the thread to see if anything important happend and decided that it should be best that you guys know that I am still alive and willing to play this game seriously as opposed to having to wonder why someone just doesn't post at all. If this way generates more suspicions that I might have to reconsider on honesty and politeness ....
Third post: Show nested quote +Trying to catch up with the thread at 1:30 am is not that effective ....
Out of the three players that already got a vote Unforgiven seems the most scummy. As townie your vote is always your strongest weapon for the scumhunt. I don't say that you should random vote other players but once you have a good case it is always good to push and vote it. Until now your play seems very safe, a lot of fluffy posts.
But yes, I shouldn't be the one complaining when I am officially lurking. I even have to announce another day of lurking, but I promise some more (and BETTER!) action from me tomorrow before deadline!
He pops into the thread shortly to bandwagon a case and post some pretty fluffy advice. Next he promises action near the deadline. Let me explain why his promises of action are scummy. Town don't play the game to keep from dying, they play the game to try and kill mafia. Scum play the game to stay alive. This is the key to analysis of his play. His second post is only after people have drawn focus to him. His third is useless and with that tantalizing promise of action. His promise seems like it's there to stave off pressure so that we distract ourselves with other cases and he can continue lurking without committing any information to the game. He is trying to stave off pressure and keep himself out of people's sights, a sign that he is actively lurking.
As I mentioned it was 1:30 am for me, I was super tired but as I had promised to post I didn't want to ignore the thread at all. Trying to read through the posts was exhausting, I couldn't really analyze anything and therefore decided to focus on the poeple that already had a vote. Out of the three players with a vote at that time, I was the most suspicious of Unforgiven's play and so I said why. I can't actually comment on whether or not that was a bandwaggon as I can't recall at all if there were a lot of people voting for him or criticizing his play.
I would have to admit that of course I am trying to stave off pressure right now and I AM playing this game to keep myself from dying but not because I just want to stay alive but because I am town and I want to kill mafia.
The final and most damning piece of evidence is this, while he's been making excuses for lurking in this thread he's been active and contributing in TL Mafia LV. Seriously, check out the posting history on his profile and take a look. This is another sign that he has been actively attempting to lurk this game. If you see any flaws in my argument please point them out, but I think it's pretty ironclad.
I came back yesterday with two hours left until deadline in TL Mafia LV. Obviously I tried to catch up with that game as I considered it more important with the urgent deadline. I do admit that it might seem damning in your eyes but I only had these 2 hours and had like 20 pages to read in order to lynch the right one (and failed by killing off our vig ..... ). Afterwards my brain just shut down and as much as I had liked to, I just couldn't think straight anymore.
I am reading your accusations post by post, so it will take me a while to address all your questions and doubts.
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Also, i have to correct my first sentence. There are no proper reads possible on superouman with that behavior (or at least i can't get any), but he posted things which allow him to get exposed while the game progresses.
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It just concerned me that with ALL this talk about lurking almost no one even mentions Superouman. I definitely do favor a lynch. So if it comes down to it I will change my vote to enforce a lynch, but I'd like to give Ange77 some time to defend himself.
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@Ange77
Quite frankly at this point, after reading your defense, it basically comes down to a question of deliberate lurking=mafia vs lack of time commitment. And that's just going to devolve into a pointless "I said, you said" game. We have many hours remaining. Give us your best analysis of the town so far. I want your reads. I want you to put yourself out there if you have to.
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On June 01 2012 19:32 Vivax wrote:
I'll first tell you who I'm going to vote for now: Ange777.
He hasn't been contributing anything whatsoever, and while I think that sciberbias posting on suki was quite good, so was his defense.
If there's a majority the town can get without fear of hitting blue, it's Ange777.
It's a day 1 with lots of information from almost everybody with exception of him, and I can say for sure that this day 1 has been a fingerpointing match like it shouldn't have been for a good town. Let's at least try to finish it with something we have an agreement on: Like most of us stated, the lurkers should get lynched first unless we already have strong scumreads.
And if this guy is mafia, he doesn't have to contribute anything as of now to remain unharmed.
Okay, as I am now officially unlurking myself and your only reason to vote for me is because of lurking I would like to ask you to take back your vote.
Also, why is there no chance at all of hitting blue with me? I am NOT claiming blue right now ... I just don't know how you can ever be sure of that.
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On June 01 2012 20:00 s0Lstice wrote:
Also Milton...seriously? That huge case against a lurker? The problem with a lurker is obvious, they are lurking. Your 'most damning point' is a non-point. She (I think she is a she? sorry if I am wrong Ange) is playing two games. We even talked about it in the pre-game. She was subbed in to TL Mafia LV before this game started. Making enough time for one game is hard enough, let alone two.
This does not forgive her for lurking, she simply is choosing to favor the other game, and maybe will get lynched because of it. How you read this as purely scummy makes no sense to me.
I'd like everyone else to have a look at Milton's filter...he is climbing into scum territory on my list.
Yes, I lurked.
Yes, I am a she.
Yes, I subbed into the other game.
I actually didn't think that this game would start this fast after it felt like ages to get the player list full.
Yes, I might be lynched because of my choice.
And YES, I will definitely think twice before playing two games again.
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On June 02 2012 02:09 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 19:32 Vivax wrote:
I'll first tell you who I'm going to vote for now: Ange777.
He hasn't been contributing anything whatsoever, and while I think that sciberbias posting on suki was quite good, so was his defense.
If there's a majority the town can get without fear of hitting blue, it's Ange777.
It's a day 1 with lots of information from almost everybody with exception of him, and I can say for sure that this day 1 has been a fingerpointing match like it shouldn't have been for a good town. Let's at least try to finish it with something we have an agreement on: Like most of us stated, the lurkers should get lynched first unless we already have strong scumreads.
And if this guy is mafia, he doesn't have to contribute anything as of now to remain unharmed. Okay, as I am now officially unlurking myself and your only reason to vote for me is because of lurking I would like to ask you to take back your vote. Also, why is there no chance at all of hitting blue with me? I am NOT claiming blue right now ... I just don't know how you can ever be sure of that.
Lol what kind of argument is that: 'I might be blue'.
Sounds exactly like the type of argument someone without arguments would use, you can apply it on anyone who didn't let any 100 % obvious scumreads slip while lurking all the time.
You had the chance to set your priorities between this mafia game and the others. But until the last hours, there were no votes against you, so you didn't feel the need to be more active in this one.
Now that the guns are pointed at you, you come out swinging to defend yourself.
In my opinion one has no choice but to lynch you.
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On June 02 2012 02:06 heist wrote:
@Ange77
Quite frankly at this point, after reading your defense, it basically comes down to a question of deliberate lurking=mafia vs lack of time commitment. And that's just going to devolve into a pointless "I said, you said" game. We have many hours remaining. Give us your best analysis of the town so far. I want your reads. I want you to put yourself out there if you have to.
That's my plan.
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@ suki
On June 2 2012 00:44 suki wrote:
---snip
I've also accused Milton of backing off of Cattivik, but what sticks out to me is that he has not shown any commitment to a scum read on a player, whereas I have. If I'm suspicious for being non-commital and political, I don't see why Miltonkram isn't much higher on the suspicion list.
Really!? Have you been completely ignoring my last few posts? At this point I think you are deliberately misrepresenting me and it's really pissing me off. You're attempting to deflect pressure onto me. I've answered why I voted for sciberbia but you keep ignoring it. I just posted a case on why I think Ange777 is scum. While it is a case against a lurker I stand by it because I think it has merit.
Let me outline why your play sticks out me:
- Your defense largely consists of deflecting pressure to other players.
- You've bandwagoned as sciberbia has pointed out. It's not in and of itself a scumtell, but don't deny that you have.
- You've committed yourself to what is, in my opinion, a bad case. (Unforgiven)
For the record, I will support a lynch of any of the four following players in order from most suspicious to least: Ange777, suki, Superouman, and Vivax.
I would also like to point out suspicious players that I have not yet had time to analyze:
s0Lstice- He posted quite a few questions in his first few posts while not taking any hard stances. He's also spent a great deal of time defending other players while not committing himself to solid reads, a possible(?) attempt at buddying. His major saving grace is he started the pressure on Unforgiven.
Golden- Seems like he's just jumping on bandwagons. He did that in the last game and was green, but I can't afford not to be suspicious of his behavior based on meta.
Note: I just noticed Ange777's post, but I already had this typed up so might as well post it. I was just reading through his/her posts in TL Mafia LV and it really does look like Ange's crunched for time. Ange777, give me some solid reads and contribution and I'll consider removing my vote.
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Day 1 Votecount
Sciberbia (1): Miltonkram, Superouman
Eishi_Ki: Vivax
Unforgiven_ve: Xatalos, Suki
Suki (2): Unforgiven_ve, Sciberbia
Ange777 (5): Miltonkram, Vivax, Xatalos, Eshi_Ki, suki
Superouman (1): Heist
Remember that the lynch system is Extended Majority, which means that its 7 votes to lynch!
Submit your votes by the deadline which is in about 4.5 hours, or face toad's fury.
Votecount as of TL time 02:17
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On June 02 2012 02:17 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 02:09 Ange777 wrote:On June 01 2012 19:32 Vivax wrote:
I'll first tell you who I'm going to vote for now: Ange777.
He hasn't been contributing anything whatsoever, and while I think that sciberbias posting on suki was quite good, so was his defense.
If there's a majority the town can get without fear of hitting blue, it's Ange777.
It's a day 1 with lots of information from almost everybody with exception of him, and I can say for sure that this day 1 has been a fingerpointing match like it shouldn't have been for a good town. Let's at least try to finish it with something we have an agreement on: Like most of us stated, the lurkers should get lynched first unless we already have strong scumreads.
And if this guy is mafia, he doesn't have to contribute anything as of now to remain unharmed. Okay, as I am now officially unlurking myself and your only reason to vote for me is because of lurking I would like to ask you to take back your vote. Also, why is there no chance at all of hitting blue with me? I am NOT claiming blue right now ... I just don't know how you can ever be sure of that. Lol what kind of argument is that: ' I might be blue'. Sounds exactly like the type of argument someone without arguments would use, you can apply it on anyone who didn't let any 100 % obvious scumreads slip while lurking all the time. You had the chance to set your priorities between this mafia game and the others. But until the last hours, there were no votes against you, so you didn't feel the need to be more active in this one. Now that the guns are pointed at you, you come out swinging to defend yourself. In my opinion one has no choice but to lynch you.
Did you not read what I posted? I said I am NOT claiming blue! I only think it's odd for you to be sure that there is no way I could flip blue. If I had wanted to claim blue I would have done it.
I do admit that the timing is unfortunate and may work against me. Can't really go back in time though ...
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Xatalos asked me how I felt about Unforgiven in light of his defense.
I'm leaving my FoS where it is. When he finally had a little time to scum hunt, he pointed the finger at suki. It was a novel idea at the time, but to me it lacked effort. Look at sciberbia's post compared to his. Now, not all accusations have to have a big word count to be effective, but his effort just looks lazy. Does the reasoning he laid out really warrant a vote? Not to me.
He says Suki never pressured anyone, which is ironic because a big part of sciberbia's case is that he bandwagon pressured a lot of people. Whether he was first on the scene or not, he has pressured milton, unforgiven, vivix, and superouman. Saying he hasn't pressured anyone is just false.
His case is just 4 short points. The first I just discussed. Past that, his other points are a short filter, safe day 1 play, and some nonsense about taunting cattivik to butter him up for a day 2 vote. It's just not a lot to go on. Keep that in mind.
In his defense posts, he says we should discuss everything and nothing at the same time. Don't throw FoS around, or votes. Don't use meta arguments. What is his idea of hunting scum? Those two things are very important tools for applying pressure. He says we need structure, but never says what that is outside from some leader emerging to tell us what to do. His message remains totally unclear. Wait, be smart about scumhunting, and let people talk...but don't use half the tools in your arsenal to get them to talk.
He doesn't follow his own rules. He posts a 'meh' case on Suki and then votes right away. If he was following his own rules, I'd think he'd at least wait for a defense before throwing his vote around.
Bottom line is I like that he has started to make some effort to hunt scum, and I realize that he has had to spend a lot of time defending himself, but there are still so many inconsistencies in his play that my FoS stays put. I will keep watching.
On refresh I see there's a lot of other stuff going on right now so I'd better hurry up and post!
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Ange777,
Like heist said, the only way I think you are going to save yourself is to do some actual, hardcore analysis on the game so far. You didn't give yourself a lot of time, so the odds are against you posting something that's going to be good enough.
Stop defending yourself and hunt scum.
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Milton,
Your accusations on me are accurate. I realized earlier that I have spent too much time considering other cases, and the players they involve. In my view, helping defend someone I think is town, and lending or subtracting weight to ongoing cases corresponding to my own reads is pro-town, but I need to hit the filters and work a lot harder on finding scum. I'll share my results as soon as I can.
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on suki
On first read, I liked his defense. I'm going to thoroughly read his filter in the near future and figure out where I stand on him. I think there is a more pressing issue right now, namely the 5 votes on Ange777.
on Ange777
I've looked through the 5 votes on her, and with the possible exception of miltonkram, a major reason for voting Ange was the simple fact that she was lurking. Well, Ange has officially stopped lurking, and has given every indication that she'll contribute in future days if she is not lynched today. So, I think you all need to ask yourself if you really believe she is mafia.
Personally, I don't see her play as either particularly scummy or particularly townie, so I'd consider lynching her no more than a coin flip. 3/12. This is not something I would throw my vote behind.
Who do we lynch?
It's unfortunate, but I don't really agree with any of the popular lynch candidates right now. Since you all insist on a lynch, I'm going to go through the thread and make a post on who I think we as a group could agree on and be happy about lynching.
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Just a short note while I'm reading...
sciberbia, the issue that is causing Ange to lurk will still be there after today. She claims she will post more, but saying and doing are not the same.
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Votecount so far:
Ange777 ( 5 ): Miltonkram, Vivax, Xatalos, Eishi_KI, Suki
Suki ( 2 ): unforgiven_ve, sciberbia,
Superouman ( 1 ): heist,
sciberbia ( 1 ): Miltonkram, Superouman,
unforgiven_ve ( 0 ): Xatalos, Suki
Eishi_Ki ( 0 ): Vivax,
It's Day1. With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch!
about 3.5 hours left to vote, voting is mandatory!
People who haven't voted yet (3): s0Lstice, O.Golden_ne, Ange777
Deadline is 22:30 GMT (+00:00)
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@s0lstice
Maybe I misread, but I think there were 2 issues. One is Mafia LV and that will of course continue to be an issue. I think she also had some real-life busyness that I assume will not be as much of an issue in future.
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##Vote Ange777
I'm satisfied with a lurker lynch in light of the fact that there just aren't any other strong cases at the moment.
Ange seems capable of doing analysis, but there is no guarantee she will devote more time in the future. Could be busy townie or lurking scum.
Superouman is just a rogue vote, could be clueless towny or tricksy scum.
I wish we could lynch both at once, but Ange777 is a start.
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My top scum read right now would be Suki:
A lot has been mentioned already, the unclear stances, the mud throwing at other players without much sound reasoning, etc. ...
This is all to excusable for a first time player. What is not excusable in my opinion is the following:
On June 02 2012 01:45 suki wrote:
I feel that lynching unforgiven at this point would give us a sure mafia lynch, but from the tone of the thread it doesn't seem like it will pass. I'll put off this discussion until day two.
Ange777 already has four votes on him, and by lynching him we rid ourselves of a lurker. To guarantee a Day 1 lynch I will vote for Ange777.
##Unvote Unforgiven_ve
##Vote Ange777
Excluding the fact that he votes on me (I am NOT calling OMGUS just because of his vote), it is the lack of interest in pursuing his own case that makes me suspicious. A good case has to be argued for and you have to convince people to agree with your point of view. Instead you just take the easy way out to get a lurker kill, although you are absolutely sure that you can lynch scum with a vote on Unforgiven? How can a lurker kill be more important than a mafia kill? And we still have a few hours till the deadline so it's not like this is a last resort from your side to guarantee a day 1 lynch.
So let's have a look at this so called 100% scum Unforgiven and Suki's case:
On May 31 2012 23:51 suki wrote:
Unforgiven seems to be the hot topic of the day, for his inconsistencies. I agree that he seems really suspicious. He also hasn't even accused anyone yet, much less contributed anything other than generalities and apologize for his english.
Really scummy. For the sake of brevity, I'll keep this short, but I'm willing to expand on my thoughts on Unforgiven if asked.
##Vote Unforgiven_ve
Yeah, was mentioned and criticized before. This looks like a classic bandwaggon. But Suki did explain his vote later on ...
On June 01 2012 14:50 suki wrote:
My reasons for voting for Unforgiven:
[spoiler]
His first three posts were general advice that was confusing at worst, contradictory at best. He states that you shouldn't use past games as a guide, yet he references two past games in the same post. He states that blue people shouldn't roleclaim, and yet they should roleclaim (as a last resort!). He states that mafia is more active during the last hours of the day, yet he slips in that he'll save his vote for the last hours as well, as if by stating it early he alleviates all suspicions on his actions later on. He's really against bandwagons, yet he asks for a town leader for people to follow.
-snip-
I'm 85% sure that unforgiven hasn't even read my filter. The last 15% is that unforgiven is a REALLY BAD BLUE. I'm sorry, your only solid 'read' on me is to call me out on being wishy washy for stating the obvious (that I can change my vote if I want to), and then you add in a safety clause that I may be town?
Agreeable reasoning for an Unforgiven lynch so far. Seems very contradictory and as long as Unforgiven doesn't address the criticism these points are valid.
So here is Unforgiven's explanation:
On May 31 2012 23:17 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
At day 1 (at least for me) we have to use timing and votting patterns to our gaing, when you just throw a bunch of FoS and Votes in every post you do you are actually helping the mafia, just making townies reasoning harder whit every post you do.
I agree we have to pressure people and make them talk, but we have to do this whitout being PARANOICS, again, this just helps mafia. Raise your case, make a couple post pointing out what you belive about someones filter, keep your FoS to yourself AT LEAST FOR THE BEGGINING OF THE DAY.
On June 01 2012 09:23 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
First of all, my "contradictions"...dont use PAST games as a guide is the first one i think. Im saying this, because i see (and saw in the past game) some people talking about "meta-game", for me, when i read NEWBIE Mafia and some players triying to do indepth analysis based on a few, sometimes even ONE random post is just hilarious, i understand we have to get the ball rolling but again, i say, we have to do this in a smart way, not just throwing gazillions of FoS and votes.
Now, at this stage of the game and seeing the post count we have something to work on, still very little, but at least is something.
About the "town leader", is something that manifest for itself, i never said lets vote or something.
Which actually makes sense.
Town really does not benefit from random votes or random FoS. People have to take your vote serious. If mafia believes that your vote will switch away from them in a few hours anyway, they won't feel the pressure to defend themselves. What town needs is convincing cases/votes with good reasoning in order to have a healthy town atmosphere.
At the start I thought Unforgiven's stance suspicious as well but the more I read I get a townvibe of him. I still believe it's better to pressure people early with a vote if you have enough suspicions/proof but I can understand why he thinks he should be more carefull with his vote. (If I remember correctly, in your last game there were tons of FoS in the early game and it confused a lot of players. And NO, this is not me meta gaming Unforgiven, but I am trying to see it from his side!)
Furthermore you don't want to rely on meta game for a newbie game. This kind of argumentation works better when you have played with someone for a lot of games and know his town or mafia playstyle. (And even than it is bound to fail you from time to time!)
I think it has been stated enough times that you should not roleclaim and why. But it is common sense that roleclaiming is your last and best shot if you are otherwise gonna be lynched. Sure, you will have to face WIFOM but if you this is your last resort, it is a strategy you should definitely pursue!
The town leader thing is somehow a flawed post from Unforgiven. But that alone does not suffice for a lynch on him.
Which brings me back to Suki's last post:
On June 02 2012 01:45 suki wrote:
I feel that lynching unforgiven at this point would give us a sure mafia lynch, but from the tone of the thread it doesn't seem like it will pass. I'll put off this discussion until day two.
Ange777 already has four votes on him, and by lynching him we rid ourselves of a lurker. To guarantee a Day 1 lynch I will vote for Ange777.
##Unvote Unforgiven_ve
##Vote Ange777
So somehow Suki managed to ignore Unforgiven's entire defense and still found a way to be absolutely sure of him being mafia, when in the post before there was still a 15% chance of him being a bad blue role.
And yet he gives up on lynching the sure mafia to jump on a bandwaggon forming on me ....
##Vote Suki
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EPT
