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On June 02 2012 04:37 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:29 Unforgiven_ve wrote:This extended mayority lynch will fuck us pretty bad, mafia are theonly ones benefiting from this i think... This new case (and votes) against Ange777... i did told you mafia would come at last hours for some activity uh? She's is now on my list, but suki remains number one, specially after this On June 02 2012 01:45 suki wrote:
I feel that lynching unforgiven at this point would give us a sure mafia lynch, but from the tone of the thread it doesn't seem like it will pass. I'll put off this discussion until day two.
Ange777 already has four votes on him, and by lynching him we rid ourselves of a lurker. To guarantee a Day 1 lynch I will vote for Ange777.
##Unvote Unforgiven_ve
##Vote Ange777 Same random blind vote agains a case someone's else stated For me, suki is still number 1, if Ange777 flips red this will just convice me even more, i bet they are wishing for a NL. I will change my vote before deadline if neccesary, i still have a couple hour to burn. As always, if anyone has any question please ask Okay ... seems like I have to step back from a Unforgiven defense ... What are you implying here? That if I flipped red you would be even more convinced that Suki is scum? If you truly think both of us scum there would be no way Suki wants to vote for me. He could easily stick to his vote on you and claim that he is still 100% convinced of you being mafia. High chance for other people to vote for me anyway, so why would he have to vote for me, make himself suspicious of vote switching and bandwaggoning? Furthermore, losing a scum buddy on day 1 would be awful for him. He would indeed prefer a NL instead of my lynch and therefore NOT vote for me! You just made yourself highly suspicious! ##FoS Unforgiven
You writing posts like this makes me less and less convinced about lynching you, Ange777. If you continued like that tomorrow, it would be a huge loss if you died to this lynch. I'm willing to remove my vote from you and move it to Unforgiven_ve, who just reminded me why I was so suspicious of him initially.
##Unvote
##Vote Unforgiven_ve
The deadline is closing and we need to get 7 votes on a single suspicious player. #1 goes easily to Unforgiven_ve, since Ange777 started playing actively and Superouman hasn't done anything very suspicious (besides his lack of interest in town's win condition). Looks like Suki is absent, which might explain why he was willing to stop pursuing his best Mafia read for today's lynch. Or then he's fake-AFK and wanting to make me think that. In any case, Suki, you need to be more decisive and committing for tomorrow. I don't think you're Mafia right now, but you should improve your play and always trust in your own ability to push the discussion. Consider yourself warned.
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No, i belive what you said, you were busy, i have no read on you, for me is a flipcoin. I convinced suki is mafia, given the commodity extended mayority gives to mafia i think they can have more room to play, seeing suki have changed his vote at once just reading one post, why not doing it again if necessary? If some other estates a case against some other player, he could say "yep this is pretty convincing too" for third time at last minute
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On June 02 2012 04:53 Vivax wrote:
Don't forget that we're still waiting for O.Golden_ne, who is probably lurking in the last hours before deadline to find a breach. Just sayin'...
Sciberbia, you summarized that I'm not sure about suki.
I just went through sukis' filter, and I would STRONGLY consider him to be town.
I see his defense as valid and his efforts as sincere, that said, the people pushing the case against him are either misleaded townies or mafia.
And saying he's bandwagoning on Ange777's case is nonsense, he was among the first if not the first.
I think we should keep pushing the case against Ange777, right now she's trying to undig cases on all possible people. I understand that there might be pressure cause of the limited time, but backing off from this target now puts the town at great danger of a No-Lynch.
And frankly, who the hell would want to lynch the guy who contributed more so far (suki) as opposed to someone who comes last minute when the votes against her are out already.
Stop getting soft and let's stick to the lurker lynching policy noone opposed to at the start.
It's a real bad time for controversy.
Vivax, are you seriously coming in and trying to defend Suki without any real effort? If you have problems with my case against him, please state them and tell me, why do you believe me to be mislead.
And Suki IS bandwagoning. He was the 5th player to vote for me, I can't see how this counts as "the first".
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Xatalos: do you really think is not suspicious to come a few hours before deadline and make people belive you are that one analyst the town needs?
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On June 02 2012 05:02 Ange777 wrote:
...
And Suki IS bandwagoning. He was the 5th player to vote for me, I can't see how this counts as "the first".
twice, whitout at least posting his reasons besides "yep she0s lurking" and "omg unforgiven looks so scummy, but maybe not"
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On June 02 2012 04:59 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
No, i belive what you said, you were busy, i have no read on you, for me is a flipcoin.
On June 02 2012 05:03 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
Xatalos: do you really think is not suspicious to come a few hours before deadline and make people belive you are that one analyst the town needs?
Unforgiven ... how about sticking to your stance? Either you don't have a read on me OR I am suspicious ...
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On June 02 2012 05:05 Unforgiven_ve wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:02 Ange777 wrote:
...
And Suki IS bandwagoning. He was the 5th player to vote for me, I can't see how this counts as "the first".
twice, whitout at least posting his reasons besides "yep she0s lurking" and "omg unforgiven looks so scummy, but maybe not"
What do you mean? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
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50-50?? i dont really have a read on you because of your low activity, besides the couple post you made and the sudden activity i have no other read, thats the only thing i find suspicious. Having a FoS and a read are different things right?
and i meant he (suki) bandwagon'ed twice, me and you whitout stating any real reasons of his own
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ebwop: im not saying i have a FoS on you, just slightly suspicios for the reasons i stated
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@ Ange777
Well shit, perhaps s0Lstice was right about you. Kind of frustrating that I made that huge case against you, but I have to admit when someone has actively contributed. If you are scum, you are now far less dangerous because you've committed strongly to your suspicions and made a case against a player. We can analyze the stances you've taken later on in the game.
As for Superouman, he's made some very strange statements. I can't help but think that if he were communicating in the scum QT, they would have advised him not to make some of the confusing statements that he has. Superouman is a pure policy lynch as far as I'm concerned. Policy lurker lynches are helpful, but we don't gain nearly as much information from them.
My new top lynch candidate is suki. He's seemed very suspicious of me, but he's ignored my rebuttals against him that I've posted. Why would he do that to, from what I can tell, one of his top 2 scumreads? I think he knows that his case against me is bad. Half of it is based on misrepresenting that I haven't responded to him or that I've taken a position that I haven't actually taken. You've earned this suki. If you flip red it's going to feel so good.
##unVote: Ange777
##Vote: suki
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On June 02 2012 05:11 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
50-50?? i dont really have a read on you because of your low activity, besides the couple post you made and the sudden activity i have no other read, thats the only thing i find suspicious. Having a FoS and a read are different things right?
and i meant he (suki) bandwagon'ed twice, me and you whitout stating any real reasons of his own
Are there several definitions for FoS? From http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations
FoS: Finger of Suspicion. Used to indicate that you find someone suspicious but are not going to vote them, for whatever reason (often because you are voting for someone even more suspicious).
I might have misunderstood your post. When I put the FoS on you, I think you are scummy but I still think Suki's more scummy and therefore vote him. Especially as he doesn't answer my accusations.
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Suki, where are you when you need to defend yourself? The bandwagon on you is gathering steam, but you're nowhere to be seen. And I don't even think you're Mafia. Do a favor for everyone and show up right now.
Where are o.Golden_ne, Superouman, Heist and Eishi_Ki for that matter? This huge amount of lurking is making the game so much harder.
On June 02 2012 05:06 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:59 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
No, i belive what you said, you were busy, i have no read on you, for me is a flipcoin. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:03 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
Xatalos: do you really think is not suspicious to come a few hours before deadline and make people belive you are that one analyst the town needs? Unforgiven ... how about sticking to your stance? Either you don't have a read on me OR I am suspicious ...
I fully agree and wonder why people aren't voting for him already. He's just throwing non-committing blame around and never risking the chance of being put under real scrutiny. If you want to have a textbook Mafia style to analyze, you have one right here... Compare Unforgiven_ve and Suki with each other and tell me Suki is the Mafia of these two. It's probably not both, since they have been antagonizing each other for the whole game.
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On June 02 2012 05:02 Ange777 wrote:
And Suki IS bandwagoning. He was the 5th player to vote for me, I can't see how this counts as "the first".
You are right, I've mistaken miltons' post for sukis.
Still doesn't change my opinion after reading his filter.
Going for the lynch as opposed to a NL will always look like a bandwagon. In fact, when there aren't any decisive reads, there has to be a bandwagon. But better that than more confusion. I've also said heist shouldn't try to disrupt the voting process against you, should it be one vote away from a majority, cause then we will end up without information.
That doesn't mean I will accuse him for bandwagoning just cause he's the last to vote.
There are no proper scumreads in his posts, one of the most early scumreads is inactivity, by which you shined.
I've already compared the times of your posts in the other games with those in this one, and you didn't feel pressured to post in this one when you did in the other.
You've either set your priorities in a way that it will make you look suspicious, or you are scum.
Then this case on suki, it's just perfect for you, the contribution you are giving us concerns mostly him, and you also vote for him.
Since there is already a fair amount of people suspecting him, it's just natural you're gonna try to spin momentum away from your towards his case.
Also, you post a lot of small posts effectively diluting the thread.
Look, I'm suspicious to a bunch of people already, I am pushing the accusation against you.
Then why do you just pick sukis' case cause it's the case where you could obtain a majority and not get lynched?
Cause it's gonna be too hard for you to push a case on me, heist and Golden tried, now they're silent when it won't work.
Who defended you?Heist. Guess what, his first line regarding you was:
'Let us hear something from you. No pressure.'
He's going pretty soft on you despite being a lurker.
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im not a fan of this, but im gonna do it...
TOWN please, VOTE FOR SUKI, im pretty sure he is mafia!! I bet he is confortably sitting waiting for Ange777 to get lynched or a No Lynch at best.
Xatalos, if you arent mafia, please do this, a vigi can check me at night (if mafia dont kill me before)
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Alright guys, I'll be away for just a bit, but I'll hopefully get back before the deadline. With s0Lstice's promised vote on suki, that brings the total on him up to five. Ange's play has lessened my suspicion of her for the time being, I would suggest anyone with their vote still on her to switch to the best candidate. I think that candidate is suki, but if you disagree, please state your reasons why.
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[+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On June 02 2012 05:25 Xatalos wrote:Suki, where are you when you need to defend yourself? The bandwagon on you is gathering steam, but you're nowhere to be seen. And I don't even think you're Mafia. Do a favor for everyone and show up right now. Where are o.Golden_ne, Superouman, Heist and Eishi_Ki for that matter? This huge amount of lurking is making the game so much harder. On June 02 2012 05:06 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:59 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
No, i belive what you said, you were busy, i have no read on you, for me is a flipcoin. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:03 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
Xatalos: do you really think is not suspicious to come a few hours before deadline and make people belive you are that one analyst the town needs? Unforgiven ... how about sticking to your stance? Either you don't have a read on me OR I am suspicious ... I fully agree and wonder why people aren't voting for him already. He's just throwing non-committing blame around and never risking the chance of being put under real scrutiny. If you want to have a textbook Mafia style to analyze, you have one right here... Compare Unforgiven_ve and Suki with each other and tell me Suki is the Mafia of these two. It's probably not both, since they have been antagonizing each other for the whole game.
never risking the chance of being put under real scrutiny?? Really? in every post i say if you have questions just ask! Maybe i didnt made myself clear at beggining, i see now one should adapt to how the town plays. Unlike you i dont throw random FoS and votes "just to get the ball rolling", you can do some analysis checking the time and the way people post (i think i have said the same thing like 4 times now?)
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On June 02 2012 04:29 Unforgiven_ve wrote:Danm...i thought this language thing would not be a problem, i see im mistaken... I see my first post still is a problem for some players, i will try to summarize my response (for the last time) taking this post... Show nested quote +he states that you shouldn't use past games as a guide, yet he references two past games in the same post. He states that blue people shouldn't roleclaim, and yet they should roleclaim (as a last resort!). He states that mafia is more active during the last hours of the day, yet he slips in that he'll save his vote for the last hours as well, as if by stating it early he alleviates all suspicions on his actions later on. He's really against bandwagons, yet he asks for a town leader for people to follow. when i say "dont use past game as a guide" i mean personally, dont look for the other games some especific player has played (¿sp?), they can change their way of playing very easily. I just had played 1 game, blue roleclaiming at the end of the game is pretty obvious for me. I said i will save my vote for the last triying to show the town how is my style" of play, like i said, watching all the post, getting information, etc...but i see maybe i was wrong, one should adapt to the way the TOWN plays. When i say town leader i ment someone who are good at making indepth anaysis and posts, who could get people thinking, who can sumarize 10 pages in one post... i think i did not made it very clear, but for a mafia this would be VERY hard to do, thats what i ment when i said "structure" just one or a couple of good players, not someone we will blindly follow...i forgot im in a newbie game ;D. Now to all the new information... __________________________________________________________________________ This extended mayority lynch will fuck us pretty bad, mafia are theonly ones benefiting from this i think... This new case (and votes) against Ange777... i did told you mafia would come at last hours for some activity uh? She's is now on my list, but suki remains number one, specially after this Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 01:45 suki wrote:
I feel that lynching unforgiven at this point would give us a sure mafia lynch, but from the tone of the thread it doesn't seem like it will pass. I'll put off this discussion until day two.
Ange777 already has four votes on him, and by lynching him we rid ourselves of a lurker. To guarantee a Day 1 lynch I will vote for Ange777.
##Unvote Unforgiven_ve
##Vote Ange777 Same random blind vote agains a case someone's else started. s0Lstice: + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 02:37 s0Lstice wrote:
Xatalos asked me how I felt about Unforgiven in light of his defense.
I'm leaving my FoS where it is. When he finally had a little time to scum hunt, he pointed the finger at suki. It was a novel idea at the time, but to me it lacked effort. Look at sciberbia's post compared to his. Now, not all accusations have to have a big word count to be effective, but his effort just looks lazy. Does the reasoning he laid out really warrant a vote? Not to me.
He says Suki never pressured anyone, which is ironic because a big part of sciberbia's case is that he bandwagon pressured a lot of people. Whether he was first on the scene or not, he has pressured milton, unforgiven, vivix, and superouman. Saying he hasn't pressured anyone is just false.
His case is just 4 short points. The first I just discussed. Past that, his other points are a short filter, safe day 1 play, and some nonsense about taunting cattivik to butter him up for a day 2 vote. It's just not a lot to go on. Keep that in mind.
In his defense posts, he says we should discuss everything and nothing at the same time. Don't throw FoS around, or votes. Don't use meta arguments. What is his idea of hunting scum? Those two things are very important tools for applying pressure. He says we need structure, but never says what that is outside from some leader emerging to tell us what to do. His message remains totally unclear. Wait, be smart about scumhunting, and let people talk...but don't use half the tools in your arsenal to get them to talk.
He doesn't follow his own rules. He posts a 'meh' case on Suki and then votes right away. If he was following his own rules, I'd think he'd at least wait for a defense before throwing his vote around.
Bottom line is I like that he has started to make some effort to hunt scum, and I realize that he has had to spend a lot of time defending himself, but there are still so many inconsistencies in his play that my FoS stays put. I will keep watching.
On refresh I see there's a lot of other stuff going on right now so I'd better hurry up and post! ç Some tother time would say you are not good at reading and throw a light insult ;D but at this point of the game i (think?) know is me not knowing how to make a proper post. Im not good at writing long posts thats why i try to resume and point to the precise stuff i find scummy. Suki voted for Ange77 to enforce a day 1 lynch especially since YOU had only a single vote. For me, suki is still number 1, if Ange777 flips red this will just convice me even more, i bet they are wishing for a NL. I will change my vote before deadline if neccesary, i still have a couple hour to burn. As always, if anyone has any question please ask
You are literally going after everyone who has found you suspicious. And these are all pretty weak claims.
You start going off on Ange77 for "siding with you too strongly"? I think you are taking bandwaggoning a bit too far. She had her own analysis.
You somehow tie together both suki and ange77 as mafia scum? What???
You explicitly state that you are going to disregard Solstice and don't bother to defend yourself.
I am not completely convinced about Suki and the main accusation right now seems to refer to the switch vote to Ange77. We decided we wanted a day 1 lynch. We needed a majority. Perhaps he wanted to lay down his vote incase he missed the deadline. Bandwaggoning I find is useless accusation in and of itself. In a complete body of work it can greatly support a claim. But we need this majority for a lynch and I can completely see him changing his vote with Unforgiven's case rapidly losing steam.
My vote is currently useless. I will be changing to Unforgiven_ve. His recent behavior is really undermining my previous judgment.
##Unvote
##Vote: Unforgiven_ve
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You are literally going after everyone who has found you suspicious. And these are all pretty weak claims.
Show me my many votes or FoS for saying this please
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+ Show Spoiler +You start going off on Ange77 for "siding with you too strongly"? I think you are taking bandwaggoning a bit too far. She had her own analysis.
My exacts words were
"I forgot to put this in my last post, i also, dont like how Ange sided by me so strongly. That REALLY raised my eyebrown when i read it."
My one and onyl target has been suki, saying that thing about IF Ange777 turns red was just a random thought, a possibility we cannot discard, dont you think?
And i dont understand what are you saying here, please post what i said or ask me/show me if i wrote something weird to your eyes
You explicitly state that you are going to disregard Solstice and don't bother to defend yourself.
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On June 02 2012 05:26 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:02 Ange777 wrote:
And Suki IS bandwagoning. He was the 5th player to vote for me, I can't see how this counts as "the first".
You are right, I've mistaken miltons' post for sukis. Still doesn't change my opinion after reading his filter. Going for the lynch as opposed to a NL will always look like a bandwagon. In fact, when there aren't any decisive reads, there has to be a bandwagon. But better that than more confusion. I've also said heist shouldn't try to disrupt the voting process against you, should it be one vote away from a majority, cause then we will end up without information. That doesn't mean I will accuse him for bandwagoning just cause he's the last to vote. There are no proper scumreads in his posts, one of the most early scumreads is inactivity, by which you shined. I've already compared the times of your posts in the other games with those in this one, and you didn't feel pressured to post in this one when you did in the other. You've either set your priorities in a way that it will make you look suspicious, or you are scum. Then this case on suki, it's just perfect for you, the contribution you are giving us concerns mostly him, and you also vote for him. Since there is already a fair amount of people suspecting him, it's just natural you're gonna try to spin momentum away from your towards his case. Also, you post a lot of small posts effectively diluting the thread. Look, I'm suspicious to a bunch of people already, I am pushing the accusation against you. Then why do you just pick sukis' case cause it's the case where you could obtain a majority and not get lynched? Cause it's gonna be too hard for you to push a case on me, heist and Golden tried, now they're silent when it won't work. Who defended you?Heist. Guess what, his first line regarding you was: 'Let us hear something from you. No pressure.' He's going pretty soft on you despite being a lurker.
As I have stated several times, I understand the need to lynch. Better lynch a lurker than a NL. Everyone agrees.
I tried to explain why I posted in the other game instead of this one. Yesterday was the voting deadline for TL Mafia LV. I felt it was more important to catch up with that thread and vote there because I would have time today to contribute in our game.
While I believe that inactivity is indeed an early scumread, lurking that excessivly as I have done is just far too noticeable that I don't believe scum would actually try to follow this strategy.
The case against Suki is not based on previous suspicions from other players but on my own reasoning. There have been points that I made in my case which where not mentioned yet in the thread. If I had known that picking someone who I believe is actually scummy makes me scum ... guess I should have "picked" you as you proposed ... Why do you want me to build a case against you? I haven't yet commented on your play. Is there anything scummy I skipped that would have made a case against you better than a case against Suki?
And yes, Heist is "going soft" on me .... BECAUSE I was "only" lurking. And besides lurking there was nothing else that made me scummy.
I don't like your defense of Suki at all. Basically you try two things:
1) You try to discredit me by saying that I chose an easy case. I can only say, I am pretty convinced by my case of Suki and would have posted a similar case on anybody whom I believed to be scummy.
2) You try to say I am scummy because I lurked. Now that I unlurk don't you think that should somehow revert your judgement? Or are you saying that I am now scummy BECAUSE I unlurked?
This is not a defense at all. You only discredit ME, but you don't explain Suki's behaviour. I have stated that he had more than enough time to start a good case on Unforgiven (which I would have seconded having seen Unforgiven's latest posts) and you only repeat that you think his filter is good?
Oh yes ... and finally the biggest loop in your logic. I don't need a majority for Suki if the only thing I was concerned about was staying alive. Getting a NL would suffice if I was mafia.
Please come up with a better defense ... otherwise I will be presenting you with a FoS as well.
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EPT
