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I just realized I'm procrastinating again...LOL
god damn I'm terrible at this homework thing.
so: why I don't think BC is scum
The most important thing to note is that his town play in general is not well-known for being good. In fact, I would say it's rather bad in comparison to his scum play (no offense BC). I'm sure players like syllo and Jackal and kita, who have played here much longer than I, can attest to this as well.
Second, in the massive game where we lynched Youngminii day 1, I recall BC not even having a proper lynch target despite being a mayoral candidate day 1. I remember that part of my frustration day 1 in trying to get a read on BC (the first game I'd ever played with him) was that he just seemed so damn lazy. He was town that game, and yet really didn't do anything except mention his DT plan and then make a few posts about the mayoral candidacy before day 2. Once Ace arrived in the game I think he started doing more, but that was already at least a day in.
Third, from what I remember about the massive game, where he tunneled Palmar relentlessly, and L where he kept wondering whether people actually read his posts, BC HATES play that is in eyes, stupid or just doesn't make sense. He rightfully called out Palmar that game for not playing as well as he should have, but ultimately I didn't agree with the case on Palmar that game. Clearly, he was wrong about Palmar's alignment (as was Ace, if you guys remember.) In addition, both of those games I've played with BC he also got suspicion for being scary as scum, which I found hilarious. I myself took what BC was doing in XLVII as scummy and I pushed him hard day 2 for being so retardedly stubborn about Palmar. I was wrong though, and I saw why. People have this inherent fear of good mafia players, so they're predisposed to thinking that anything they do that's slightly out of line is indicative of them being scum. This is just a fear mechanism though; it's not logical and it rarely is effective.
Based on that, when BC agreed with me about redFF and voted him I was not in the least bit surprised because I fully expected him to jump on the play. This didn't make me for sure convinced that he was town, but I wanted to see what he would post in the coming days if I was right or not.
Another thing is his attack of risk.nuke. That makes sense to me from a town perspective as well because of how dumb what risk.nuke said is.
On February 24 2012 09:22 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Following it up with the "don't lynch someone who claimed tracker day 1" is also very very suspect to me as well. I say this because by allowing someone to claim a role day 1 that is not confirmable via action day 1 only opens them up to potential role tampering. You could get roleblocked, your target always seems to die, your checks mysteriously are wrong, etc.. In these cases said player would ultimately die to town regardless of alignment.
It also opens a level of credibility the player does not deserve. People instantly see a role that is normally a pro town role and instantly assume that player is town. If the claim is fake, or the role is in mafia hands this leads to a player being "confirmed" when they in fact are not. Obviously a player could be the role they claimed, but given that you will never be able to confirm their role / alignment without outing another role or killing said player it is never ideal to let them stay alive.
Both of the posts I mentioned are extremely suspect in my eyes for reasons I posted, he also has alot of what I would deem fluff posts which are not really helpful in any way.
As of now I will say most likely scum and will cement my read as he continues to post.
Anyone recall what the BC role in the PYP series is? It's a fucking vig that only shoots roleclaimers.
BC as town hates roleclaimers. With that in mind, reread the quote above where BC talks about risk.nuke's retardedness in regard to day 1 claimers not getting lynched.
Lastly, and this is most important, look at the voting pattern yesterday. When the redFF lynch caught steam so did BC's wagon. There was little, if any resistance, to the BC lynch. If BC was actually scum I seriously doubt he'd be in a position where he'd almost get lynched day 1. I think such a revered scum player such as BC would have at least the pride to prevent such an occurrence, and indeed I think his scumteam would realize how valuable BC as a player is and would take steps to prevent that as well.
I think based on the activity it's far more likely that BC is town and was getting pushed as an alternative to the redFF lynch. Regardless of redFF's alignment it would clearly be better for scum to lynch a town BC. If redFF was scum, it would mean they could save redFF and kill BC. If redFF was town, they could kill a "better" townie, so-to-speak.
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On February 24 2012 14:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:@WBG Show nested quote +I never even read Doctor H's case on you, because quite honestly I stopped paying attention to Dr. H after I stopped pressuring him at the end of the night phase.
Show nested quote +I'm not very sure on his alignment and many of the things he said recently (particularly what he pointed out about RoL's stance on BC and his agreement with me about VE) make sense. Doesn't this imply the opposite? I don't like that you brought up LotR mafia either. That isn't any good reason to say I'm 100% scum if you die. Especially if we are both town, scum now has a higher incentive to hit you just to push my lynch. You tunneled me pretty hard in that game if i recall barely since I quit after the first Day.
There's only two times I've ever died n1 in a game:
Swedish House where I was the traitor and scum couldn't aim at players, they aimed at traits. First ever game.
LoTR, where you were scum and I pushed you super hard day 1.
Granted, this game I didn't push you as hard because I wasn't as confident. I'm still not completely confident on my read of you but I think I've got one that's correct. However, if I died n1 after pressuring you I would want the town to lynch you, that's only logical. I have no idea why kita would say to kill jackal if he died, but I'm sure he has his reasons as well.
Also, I was exaggerating; I read everything but honestly I find your posts harder to read through than anyone else's. I have no idea why, but often I find myself questioning whether I actually understood what you were saying I finish reading.
I'll likely be voting for VE or RoL this day though. VE you act so damn arrogant and then when it comes time for you to actually make your statements you're getting picked apart, lose confidence, and back away. You want to call WBG scum but you don't want to commit to the vote. Why not? Why would you change your vote to BH the person that your #1 scumread is bandwagoning? Why would you assume WBG is just scum giving you BH to survive? He is certainly capable of arguing against you and any bandwagon that would exist on WBG has zero traction at the time being, this is the only reason I could think of for switching your vote.
The fact that you're being so dramatic in this game leads me to believe you're putting on an act. All the UGH's and NOOO's and emoticons and all this shit, I might take another look through your responsibility filter but it seems you were pretty on point by then. It seems like you're trying to please everybody and lay suspicion at the same time, I guess. That's the best way I can put it.
While some of these are good points, VE tends to be dramatic regardless of his alignment.
Not quite sure that's a tell in either direction tbh
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So, why didn't his wagon pick up steam? You are saying that regardless of redFF's alignment, BloodyC0bbler would be a better lynch for scum unless he was scum. Furthermore, scum could avoid a huge deal of the fallout from a BloodyC0bbler mislynch by hiding the flip as it appears that they did. Your defense of BloodyC0bbler is primarily based on meta, something that the bulk of players in this game does not have. Do you think that Blazinghand is a scum who tried to get a town BloodyC0bbler lynched? He switched from redFF to BloodyC0bbler on shitty out-of-character reasonable at a crucial moment.
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On February 24 2012 14:43 prplhz wrote:
So, why didn't his wagon pick up steam? You are saying that regardless of redFF's alignment, BloodyC0bbler would be a better lynch for scum unless he was scum. Furthermore, scum could avoid a huge deal of the fallout from a BloodyC0bbler mislynch by hiding the flip as it appears that they did. Your defense of BloodyC0bbler is primarily based on meta, something that the bulk of players in this game does not have. Do you think that Blazinghand is a scum who tried to get a town BloodyC0bbler lynched? He switched from redFF to BloodyC0bbler on shitty out-of-character reasonable at a crucial moment.
yes, that is actually precisely what I think.
It's supported 100% by the fact that BH unvoted BC today as soon as BC made ONE post defending himself. I'm not even sure he managed to read all of it, because the unvote came so quickly after BC posted.
Also, I disagree with you completely that meta is unavailable to the bulk of players in this game. They can go ahead and read BC's filters from those games an compare the posts to this game. It's not hard.
In fact, as you played in those games I don't see why you aren't using those resources yourself.
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and actually his wagon did pick up steam; at one point I'm pretty sure BC and redFF were only one vote apart.
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Any further discussion on what I would/wouldn't do if I'm scum and you're town is WIFOM anyway. I could go for not hitting you to get town cred since you're unsure, I can hit you and then say that scum hit you to push my lynch, all are viable.
If I'm town you've just given scum a reason to kill you now, in a sense.
When you say you're not paying attention to me when you're done pressuring it sounds worrying. This sounds like "My bandwagon didn't go anywhere so I moved on." If you really thought I was scum or had suspicion there's no reason to stop paying attention. If you are scum looking for a fake bandwagon to start that sort of reasoning makes a lot of sense. If you can't keep up pressure without drawing heat on yourself then you have no real reason to take an interest in what I'm doing. I'm being very nitpicky but I want to be careful, carelessness in AC and other games has caused me to drop a lot of very good reads and miss details. I feel it's likely you just worded that badly but I'm not sold on you.
And what's so doubtful about his presence in this game? It's not much unlike his presence in AC really, it makes sense he would be posting more this time around. I pointed out what I saw as the differences in his metagame. If that is holding you back I suggest you go back to my post on RoL/Dirk/VE and read that part.
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On February 24 2012 14:43 prplhz wrote:
So, why didn't his wagon pick up steam? You are saying that regardless of redFF's alignment, BloodyC0bbler would be a better lynch for scum unless he was scum. Furthermore, scum could avoid a huge deal of the fallout from a BloodyC0bbler mislynch by hiding the flip as it appears that they did. Your defense of BloodyC0bbler is primarily based on meta, something that the bulk of players in this game does not have. Do you think that Blazinghand is a scum who tried to get a town BloodyC0bbler lynched? He switched from redFF to BloodyC0bbler on shitty out-of-character reasonable at a crucial moment.
It picked up enough steam that it was within like 1-2 votes until I changed right? It's not like scum can 100% decide a lynch anyway, the way your post is phrased makes it sound like mafia just choose whoever gets lynched every time.
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On February 24 2012 14:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Any further discussion on what I would/wouldn't do if I'm scum and you're town is WIFOM anyway. I could go for not hitting you to get town cred since you're unsure, I can hit you and then say that scum hit you to push my lynch, all are viable.
If I'm town you've just given scum a reason to kill you now, in a sense.
When you say you're not paying attention to me when you're done pressuring it sounds worrying. This sounds like "My bandwagon didn't go anywhere so I moved on." If you really thought I was scum or had suspicion there's no reason to stop paying attention. If you are scum looking for a fake bandwagon to start that sort of reasoning makes a lot of sense. If you can't keep up pressure without drawing heat on yourself then you have no real reason to take an interest in what I'm doing. I'm being very nitpicky but I want to be careful, carelessness in AC and other games has caused me to drop a lot of very good reads and miss details. I feel it's likely you just worded that badly but I'm not sold on you.
And what's so doubtful about his presence in this game? It's not much unlike his presence in AC really, it makes sense he would be posting more this time around. I pointed out what I saw as the differences in his metagame. If that is holding you back I suggest you go back to my post on RoL/Dirk/VE and read that part.
I sense there's some sort of disconnect here.
Have you noticed that I've been responding differently to you in the last couple of pages?
Since you're not stupid, don't you think you can infer why?
+ Show Spoiler +hint: it's the same reason I stopped pressuring you. + Show Spoiler +super hint: there's actually a really good reason why you should stop pressuring someone. + Show Spoiler + answer: GASP it's because I don't actually think you're scum anymore
Normally I don't spell it out to people, since they breathe a sigh of relief once I switch targets. But you, it's almost like you WANT to get tunneled!
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I noticed that a long time ago and when I pointed it out you started calling me scum again so I just assumed you hadn't changed your mind
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Because I'm bad. I remember you pointed this exact same thing out in Responsibility Mafia! too. While the meta is available to everybody, not everybody has it readily available to them in their memory. You don't seriously expect everybody to go read everybody else's old games when they join a game? Only a few people do that. My point is that it's a pretty valid excuse "BloodyC0bbler looks scum, and I didn't have the meta that would allow me to see that he often just looks scum as town". I'm surprised not any more scum switched to him.
While you're right that the BloodyC0bbler train picked up more steam, I don't think syllogism is scum, I think DoctorHelvetica is actually putting a ton of effort into this game, I'm not very scum, VisceraEyes looks pretty town to me. That leaves risk.nuke and Blazinghand to get the votes to 6 which BloodyC0bbler had at his wagon's highest point, also making these two scum. I've already said they both look bad and I'd be up for lynching either of them today.
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by the way VE I'm just curious
what purpose would a "lynch list" ever serve a town player to post in a million years
i'm trying to think of things more useless and i'm not coming up with much
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On February 24 2012 14:54 prplhz wrote:
Because I'm bad. I remember you pointed this exact same thing out in Responsibility Mafia! too. While the meta is available to everybody, not everybody has it readily available to them in their memory. You don't seriously expect everybody to go read everybody else's old games when they join a game? Only a few people do that. My point is that it's a pretty valid excuse "BloodyC0bbler looks scum, and I didn't have the meta that would allow me to see that he often just looks scum as town". I'm surprised not any more scum switched to him.
While you're right that the BloodyC0bbler train picked up more steam, I don't think syllogism is scum, I think DoctorHelvetica is actually putting a ton of effort into this game, I'm not very scum, VisceraEyes looks pretty town to me. That leaves risk.nuke and Blazinghand to get the votes to 6 which BloodyC0bbler had at his wagon's highest point, also making these two scum. I've already said they both look bad and I'd be up for lynching either of them today.
Sounds kinda slippy
He really was almost lynched. If it weren't for people yelling about BH and me switching my vote BC could well have won. How do you know scum didn't pile onto BC? There are likely, what 4 or 5 mafia in this game? You think they're all going to vote unanimously for the same person? You think every single one of them was available to change their vote an hour or two before the deadline?
Do you know something we don't? You have, as town, no way of knowing off the bat who voted for who especially since there wasn't even a flip it's difficult to even speculate on.
The bandwagon definitely gained steam a lot of steam, good job ditching your original point (the one that brought you to the conclusion that BC is scum) but not the conclusion that came off of it. Just because BC wasn't lynched does not mean he is town. How does VE look town to you?
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On February 24 2012 15:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
by the way VE I'm just curious
what purpose would a "lynch list" ever serve a town player to post in a million years
i'm trying to think of things more useless and i'm not coming up with much
Do what you gotta do Doc. What do you think about Blazinghand?
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Hey DoctorHelvetica
Do you want to say something?
You're like constantly on my back.
Yesterday you promised an analysis on me and said I should be lynched today.
Instead you made analysis on 4 other players.
You're still on my back all the time for "slippy" shit that really looks like you're grasping stuff out of the thin air.
Do you want to say something?
wherebugsgo just said that there are only 4 scum which is totally true, no matter the factors making a BloodyC0bbler mislynch easier (the case on BloodyC0bbler should look alright for people who don't have meta with BloodyC0bbler, the hidden flip). Blazinghand and risk.nuke as scum, maybe you but you're putting a ton of effort in this game, looks plausible and that would be 2 scum and that's a huge deal, I kinda realize that now.
I have played like 50 games with VisceraEyes and he's always one of the players I take notice of because we joined this sub forum at the same time. Last time he was scum in Hammer Mini Mafia I took notice of it, same with XLVIII. He has a somewhat bad habit of claiming scum when he's scum and I didn't see that yet. He's talking to everybody and being hugely transparent and active and that's not only objectively townie, it's also his town meta.
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Dodge my question with a question that I've already answered multiple times, good going
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The lynch list serves to let town know who I'm willing to lynch. I changed my mind on RoL, but my vote was ultimately on BC. Where are you going with this?
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On February 24 2012 15:17 prplhz wrote:
Hey DoctorHelvetica
Do you want to say something?
You're like constantly on my back.
Yesterday you promised an analysis on me and said I should be lynched today.
Instead you made analysis on 4 other players.
You're still on my back all the time for "slippy" shit that really looks like you're grasping stuff out of the thin air.
Do you want to say something?
wherebugsgo just said that there are only 4 scum which is totally true, no matter the factors making a BloodyC0bbler mislynch easier (the case on BloodyC0bbler should look alright for people who don't have meta with BloodyC0bbler, the hidden flip). Blazinghand and risk.nuke as scum, maybe you but you're putting a ton of effort in this game, looks plausible and that would be 2 scum and that's a huge deal, I kinda realize that now.
I have played like 50 games with VisceraEyes and he's always one of the players I take notice of because we joined this sub forum at the same time. Last time he was scum in Hammer Mini Mafia I took notice of it, same with XLVIII. He has a somewhat bad habit of claiming scum when he's scum and I didn't see that yet. He's talking to everybody and being hugely transparent and active and that's not only objectively townie, it's also his town meta.
I looked through your filter and didn't find it as suspicious as I had expected based on a couple of your posts that tipped me off later in the day. I'm hardly constantly on your back, I've been pressuring you for all of what two or three posts now? Defensive and paranoid much? Scum shit right there.
I have no idea what you're saying in this paragraph. I want to understand it but I don't. Where are you getting the idea that exactly 2 scum must have voted for BC? Is that even what you're saying? It's probable that scum spread their votes out to some degree but I don't know exactly how they did it or even why and there wasn't even a flip on the first day. If you can explain clearly your point about the Day 1 votes and what information you seem to think it gives you then I'd like that. It's difficult when I can't even comprehend what you are writing.
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You know, you come off as a hell of a lot more arrogant than I do. Why did you even include that in your post? If you think I'm not making any sense say so, but I'm in agreement with you on a lot of things, so whatever sir. If you want to vote for me, do it. I'm voting for who I think is scum.
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On February 24 2012 15:19 VisceraEyes wrote:
The lynch list serves to let town know who I'm willing to lynch. I changed my mind on RoL, but my vote was ultimately on BC. Where are you going with this?
Seems scummy to me. Absolutely useless fluff, makes you look kinda pro-town while you run around asking questions and poking/prodding people without ever making serious commitments and cases. You format some of your trash pretty nicely though, maybe later you'll do that with some real content or a case ?
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On February 24 2012 15:23 VisceraEyes wrote:
You know, you come off as a hell of a lot more arrogant than I do. Why did you even include that in your post? If you think I'm not making any sense say so, but I'm in agreement with you on a lot of things, so whatever sir. If you want to vote for me, do it. I'm voting for who I think is scum.
You're posting a shitton and aren't reading closely enough to know what I've said about BH when I said it many times and you wrote me off and just asked this dumb question instead of making a real response right away
I never told you who or what to vote for so I don't even know what this post is trying to do it's just whiny
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EPT
