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On December 19 2011 10:16 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:09 annul wrote:
so WBG it seems like your argument is "other games have shit balance so its okay that my game has shit balance too"
our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play.
the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. so you're saying that every standard game ever played in the TL Mafia subforum has been grossly town favored? LOL. You don't sacrifice FIVE scum to no-lynch, and I am certain every single one of your teammates would agree on that. I already know VE and sandro agree with me on that.
Ya you do. Hell Sandro was the one that "accidentally" scum slipped. That was no accident. That was my idea. Toad refined it Sandro executed it. I was the first person to quote it just to make sure everybody saw it. Good job picking it up and running with it Bum.
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On December 19 2011 10:23 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:05 Palmar wrote:On December 19 2011 06:51 prplhz wrote:Well, I was actually referring to syllogism's "You guys will never improve"-thing. It's like when Ace made that post saying "Everybody sucks" and then just left it there, I have played like 50 games and I still suck but I only really started improving after a lot of nice people started me giving some really good advice  I think people here need to listen to the people who are considered good players a lot more (one of the advice I myself was given at some point and that drastically improved my play). Learn to get a good read on them and learn how they play and then put them in the spot light, there they will either perform or they will out themselves. Learn to read the special cases that are the experienced players first and then listen to what they have to say 'cause they're often right, or they will sound stupid, then move on to start scum hunting for real yourself. Town hunting is a lot easier I'd say Also, if one good player says something and 10 not-so-good players say something else, it's usually the good player who is right. Dunno, I really shouldn't be giving advice but that's my take on this game. I was actually not entirely convinced about annul either, but I was very sure that Palmar was town and I was very sure that syllogism had shot annul, so that was two good players saying that a guy was definitely scum, and that very often means that he's scum. Also, yea Drazerk you need a break from mafia I think  You had a god damn mental break down this game. Totally contrary to how you played in XLVII which I enjoyed a lot This post, both the content, the thought process behind it, is the reason prplhz is quickly becoming one of the best players on this forum. Awesome job in your recent games as town prplhz. Jackal played a very strong scum game, pretty unsurprising I guess, he's awesome as scum. The redFF lynch was well... kinda ok scumplay, remember that I tore apart Zephirdd's case against redFF on day 2. I don't think it was terribly bad town play either, of course it was far from optimal. I think the main problem was redFF himself, he had such a bad game this time around, his reads were all way off. Happens to everyone though, he's a decent player. Refallen, you did sort of well this game. Lanaia, Mattchew, Drazerk, Vaderseven, Kingjames, Truthbringer, you all really, really need to step up your game. I'm sorry for not being clear enough with the case against annul, I really should have gotten him lynched, but having to go to sleep 5 hours before the deadline is kinda hard. I'd rate my play this game okay. Scum played "well" given the situation. Any non-retarded town would've completely smashed you guys, but you correctly read the situation and realized you could get away with this. That's very good call on your behalf, and man, Jackal is such a fucking monster as scum. I hope you all liked my video Thanks Palmar. I'm only good at scum when I don't try to make some stupid claim. I do that about half the time. And I couldn't comment on your video the way I eally felt I should have at the time I saw it. My response when I saw it was Aww dude. I'm sorry, but I'm scum. WBG the mass outing on day 4 wasn't stupid. It was brilliant. It destroyed any and all ability for town to scum hunt or analyze. xtstc tried and I jumped his ass for it immediately. Any discussion would appear scummy. Town had 5 people to lynch. Let's lynch them and then deal with the remaining scum. We discussed this in the IRQ. From the possibility to a win because of the mislynch to who should we hide if it goes down to worse case scenario of 3 vs 1. At the point we did that we gagged town. We only needed 1 wrong vote. Just 1 wrong vote. We got it. Don't call it stupid. It was intentional. It was planned. It was calculated. I wasn't completely sold on it when it went into action and I told the guys. But it was not bad play. Even if I had been immediately lynched today it was not bad play. It turned the game for us. Just 1 wrong vote man. We got it.
Just because it was intentional, doesn't make it any less stupid.
If we hadn't sped the game up it would have lasted for weeks with no actual activity.
Sure, you could have sacrificed Toad to get a no-lynch, since he was already tied to annul. You could've sacrificed sandro, since everyone thought he was scum. But sacrificing on top of that VE and Risen, is just stupid.
Again, just because it was calculated doesn't make it any less retarded. You're both acting as if this was the only way you guys could've won and anyone who actually thinks about it for half a second knows that's not true at all.
Not to mention, the only reason you guys were in that position in the first place was because annul decided to claim a hit d2. That hit claim made absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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On December 19 2011 10:25 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:16 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:09 annul wrote:
so WBG it seems like your argument is "other games have shit balance so its okay that my game has shit balance too"
our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play.
the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. so you're saying that every standard game ever played in the TL Mafia subforum has been grossly town favored? LOL. You don't sacrifice FIVE scum to no-lynch, and I am certain every single one of your teammates would agree on that. I already know VE and sandro agree with me on that. Ya you do. Hell Sandro was the one that "accidentally" scum slipped. That was no accident. That was my idea. Toad refined it Sandro executed it. I was the first person to quote it just to make sure everybody saw it. Good job picking it up and running with it Bum.
again, no you don't.
I even talked to sandro about it; the idea was to sacrifice himself to get the no-lynch, with toad and annul perhaps following after. There was no reason for VE and Risen to die.
EDIT: Anyway, I'm going to drop this here. Annul is not worth responding to, and I've made the mistake of feeding his rage.
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On December 19 2011 10:30 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:25 Jackal58 wrote:On December 19 2011 10:16 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:09 annul wrote:
so WBG it seems like your argument is "other games have shit balance so its okay that my game has shit balance too"
our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play.
the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. so you're saying that every standard game ever played in the TL Mafia subforum has been grossly town favored? LOL. You don't sacrifice FIVE scum to no-lynch, and I am certain every single one of your teammates would agree on that. I already know VE and sandro agree with me on that. Ya you do. Hell Sandro was the one that "accidentally" scum slipped. That was no accident. That was my idea. Toad refined it Sandro executed it. I was the first person to quote it just to make sure everybody saw it. Good job picking it up and running with it Bum. again, no you don't. I even talked to sandro about it; the idea was to sacrifice himself to get the no-lynch, with toad and annul perhaps following after. There was no reason for VE and Risen to die.
Dude. VE wanted to bus Sandro from day 1. Even if it meant outing himself all he wanted was to kill Sandro. I think every post Risen made was "sorry guys I've been out vote random townie" He was dead as soon as he voted for Sandro. Toad had wanted to post I AM SCUM at the beginning of all of his posts for 2 days. Annul was raging about balance. Sandroba was awol for the entire game and bussing Annul the entire time. I suggested the scum slip and they all loved it. It fucking worked. Don't tell me how stupid it was. You weren't privy to the most dysfunctional scum team ever. I deferred to Annul on kills and role blocks but most of the time I was in the IRQ telling every body to stop being stupid. To stop trying to be a hero. To forget about a perfect game. The move was fucking brilliant. It was the only time in the entire game all the cowboys were on the same page.
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On December 19 2011 10:39 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:25 Jackal58 wrote:On December 19 2011 10:16 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:09 annul wrote:
so WBG it seems like your argument is "other games have shit balance so its okay that my game has shit balance too"
our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play.
the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. so you're saying that every standard game ever played in the TL Mafia subforum has been grossly town favored? LOL. You don't sacrifice FIVE scum to no-lynch, and I am certain every single one of your teammates would agree on that. I already know VE and sandro agree with me on that. Ya you do. Hell Sandro was the one that "accidentally" scum slipped. That was no accident. That was my idea. Toad refined it Sandro executed it. I was the first person to quote it just to make sure everybody saw it. Good job picking it up and running with it Bum. again, no you don't. I even talked to sandro about it; the idea was to sacrifice himself to get the no-lynch, with toad and annul perhaps following after. There was no reason for VE and Risen to die. Dude. VE wanted to bus Sandro from day 1. Even if it meant outing himself all he wanted was to kill Sandro. I think every post Risen made was "sorry guys I've been out vote random townie" He was dead as soon as he voted for Sandro. Toad had wanted to post I AM SCUM at the beginning of all of his posts for 2 days. Annul was raging about balance. Sandroba was awol for the entire game and bussing Annul the entire time. I suggested the scum slip and they all loved it. It fucking worked. Don't tell me how stupid it was. You weren't privy to the most dysfunctional scum team ever. I deferred to Annul on kills and role blocks but most of the time I was in the IRQ telling every body to stop being stupid. To stop trying to be a hero. To forget about a perfect game. The move was fucking brilliant. It was the only time in the entire game all the cowboys were on the same page.
Okay, let's do a little bit of counting. It took 9 to lynch that day.
There were ultimately six townies on sandro. You and VE were #1 and #3, Toad was #4. You never unvoted. annul and risen were #6 and #7, respectively.
Instead you could've kept your vote on annul, and allowed annul/Toad to lead the lynch on sandro. You wouldn't even have had to unvote.
Risen and VE being incriminated because of the unvote was unnecessary. You could've stayed on annul and VE and Risen wouldn't have had to unvote. Sandro would've lived anyway.
EDIT: Another way to think about it is this: you had 3 townies on sandro until vote #8.
That's just overkill.
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My vote was on Sandro 3 hours before this started and had nothing to do with what ultimately transpired.
You really don't get what I just said do you? This team would not have lasted 3 more day/night cycles. This was the very best scenario giving us the very best opportunity to win.
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On December 19 2011 10:56 Jackal58 wrote:
My vote was on Sandro 3 hours before this started and had nothing to do with what ultimately transpired.
You really don't get what I just said do you? This team would not have lasted 3 more day/night cycles. This was the very best scenario giving us the very best opportunity to win.
I am understanding what you're saying. You're just wrong.
Annul and Risen voting at 7 and 8 was a mistake. VE unvoting was a mistake.
You want a split vote to barely reach majority so that one unvote will force a no-lynch. In that case, Risen should've just afked and annul could've thrown his vote on anyone he wanted. You and VE could blast Toad/annul for unvoting.
That's, at most, a 3 player sacrifice. Not 5.
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Toad, Risen and I wouldn't have made it through three days with out coming under heavy suspicion. I made it through 5 being able to choose who I was 3 v 1 against. Without anybody discussing anything. Scum team dream.
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On December 19 2011 10:39 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:25 Jackal58 wrote:On December 19 2011 10:16 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:09 annul wrote:
so WBG it seems like your argument is "other games have shit balance so its okay that my game has shit balance too"
our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play.
the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. so you're saying that every standard game ever played in the TL Mafia subforum has been grossly town favored? LOL. You don't sacrifice FIVE scum to no-lynch, and I am certain every single one of your teammates would agree on that. I already know VE and sandro agree with me on that. Ya you do. Hell Sandro was the one that "accidentally" scum slipped. That was no accident. That was my idea. Toad refined it Sandro executed it. I was the first person to quote it just to make sure everybody saw it. Good job picking it up and running with it Bum. again, no you don't. I even talked to sandro about it; the idea was to sacrifice himself to get the no-lynch, with toad and annul perhaps following after. There was no reason for VE and Risen to die. Dude. VE wanted to bus Sandro from day 1. Even if it meant outing himself all he wanted was to kill Sandro. I think every post Risen made was "sorry guys I've been out vote random townie" He was dead as soon as he voted for Sandro. Toad had wanted to post I AM SCUM at the beginning of all of his posts for 2 days. Annul was raging about balance. Sandroba was awol for the entire game and bussing Annul the entire time. I suggested the scum slip and they all loved it. It fucking worked. Don't tell me how stupid it was. You weren't privy to the most dysfunctional scum team ever. I deferred to Annul on kills and role blocks but most of the time I was in the IRQ telling every body to stop being stupid. To stop trying to be a hero. To forget about a perfect game. The move was fucking brilliant. It was the only time in the entire game all the cowboys were on the same page.
It was pretty funny. Someone had posted about having a final so I was like, there's my excuse for the rest of the game since I'm not confident in my scum play. Time to lurk ^^ Also, all 4 of us weren't supposed to swap off lol. Annul and I were the only ones supposed to swap initially, with VE and Toad following if they were necessary ((IIRC, if I'm wrong point it out I was laughing too hard for the majority of this))
I was actually in IRC more than anyone except maybe annul XD
On December 19 2011 10:59 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:56 Jackal58 wrote:
My vote was on Sandro 3 hours before this started and had nothing to do with what ultimately transpired.
You really don't get what I just said do you? This team would not have lasted 3 more day/night cycles. This was the very best scenario giving us the very best opportunity to win. I am understanding what you're saying. You're just wrong. Annul and Risen voting at 7 and 8 was a mistake. VE unvoting was a mistake. You want a split vote to barely reach majority so that one unvote will force a no-lynch. In that case, Risen should've just afked and annul could've thrown his vote on anyone he wanted. You and VE could blast Toad/annul for unvoting. That's, at most, a 3 player sacrifice. Not 5.
We pushed sand up to 8 because none of the townies would have swapped to sandroba without it being guaranteed that he could be lynched. It was the only way to save annul. Note that we had to push him to 8 and THEN townies swapped.
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On December 19 2011 10:49 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:39 Jackal58 wrote:On December 19 2011 10:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:25 Jackal58 wrote:On December 19 2011 10:16 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 10:09 annul wrote:
so WBG it seems like your argument is "other games have shit balance so its okay that my game has shit balance too"
our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play.
the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. so you're saying that every standard game ever played in the TL Mafia subforum has been grossly town favored? LOL. You don't sacrifice FIVE scum to no-lynch, and I am certain every single one of your teammates would agree on that. I already know VE and sandro agree with me on that. Ya you do. Hell Sandro was the one that "accidentally" scum slipped. That was no accident. That was my idea. Toad refined it Sandro executed it. I was the first person to quote it just to make sure everybody saw it. Good job picking it up and running with it Bum. again, no you don't. I even talked to sandro about it; the idea was to sacrifice himself to get the no-lynch, with toad and annul perhaps following after. There was no reason for VE and Risen to die. Dude. VE wanted to bus Sandro from day 1. Even if it meant outing himself all he wanted was to kill Sandro. I think every post Risen made was "sorry guys I've been out vote random townie" He was dead as soon as he voted for Sandro. Toad had wanted to post I AM SCUM at the beginning of all of his posts for 2 days. Annul was raging about balance. Sandroba was awol for the entire game and bussing Annul the entire time. I suggested the scum slip and they all loved it. It fucking worked. Don't tell me how stupid it was. You weren't privy to the most dysfunctional scum team ever. I deferred to Annul on kills and role blocks but most of the time I was in the IRQ telling every body to stop being stupid. To stop trying to be a hero. To forget about a perfect game. The move was fucking brilliant. It was the only time in the entire game all the cowboys were on the same page. Okay, let's do a little bit of counting. It took 9 to lynch that day. There were ultimately six townies on sandro. You and VE were #1 and #3, Toad was #4. You never unvoted. annul and risen were #6 and #7, respectively. Instead you could've kept your vote on annul, and allowed annul/Toad to lead the lynch on sandro. You wouldn't even have had to unvote.Risen and VE being incriminated because of the unvote was unnecessary. You could've stayed on annul and VE and Risen wouldn't have had to unvote. Sandro would've lived anyway. EDIT: Another way to think about it is this: you had 3 townies on sandro until vote #8. That's just overkill.
no I don't think we could have done that. The only reason we got so many people on sandro afterwards was because we got a bunch of people on him. At some point annul was at 9 and sandroba at 8 while 10 was the majority. The point was, that town was not going to get another nolynch. It was only a couple hours before the deadline and we feared that some townies might hero unvote sandroba to get back on annul just to avoid another no-lynch. That was the reason we had to get risen and VE in the boat as well.
And the mass unvote with 5 people. Yeah we discussed it and were afraid because 2 townies were watching the votes as well. We initially only wanted annul and me to unvote, once sandroba was 2 above majority risen was the next to unvote.
At some point we decided to unvote everyone except jackal because if that move of ours is not going to work in the first place we just screwed everything anyways.
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^This. The lynch was 10. KJ Drazerk and v7 were all watching it.
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So was Bumatlarge. He was our unsung hero. He did more to get townies to move to Sandro the we did.
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Not true, again.
Annul survived at 5 votes. Sandro survived at 7. That's wiggle room of 4 votes.
When Risen and annul voted sandro, annul was already safe at 8 votes (one of them being sandro's and another being Toad's). Since sandro was already being sacced, you could've just had sandro vote someone randomly, bringing annul to 7, and Toad could've voted randomly too.
At the end of the day one of the players would've had barely 9 votes. At that point just one person unvotes. That person would be Toad, annul, or sandro, depending on whose wagon it was.
EDIT: Also if lynch was actually 10 then my point is just reinforced.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=144#2877
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Ok I think the discussion about how bad the mafia actually was is enough. I think most of us do agree with the fact, that not bussing annul was a bad idea. I know I wanted to bus annul, I know sandroba said it's the only possible way as well and from what I hear from Jackal I think he thought the same way.
That move was stupid, it somehow worked and we had to roll with it the next couple of days imo. By that point annul, sandroba and I should have been 100% clear mafia. However town did not see that except for palmar and even he still thought I'm town which I just can't believe.
But the moment annul would have flipped red they would have been able to see all those connections. They would have seen that VE was defending annul the whole game, they would have seen all things I had to do with annul, they would have seen sandrobs weird play and would have lynched us all 4 the next 4 days the moment annul flipped. So yeah, from n2 on I did everything I could to prevent an annul flip.
And yes, we actually analyzed a bit about the town players, pointing out where their weaknesses are and how you can confince them of something that's just utterly retarded.
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Convinced the hell out of Palmar with a bullet. I still can't believe you guys didn't protect him.
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On December 19 2011 11:26 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok I think the discussion about how bad the mafia actually was is enough. I think most of us do agree with the fact, that not bussing annul was a bad idea. I know I wanted to bus annul, I know sandroba said it's the only possible way as well and from what I hear from Jackal I think he thought the same way.
That move was stupid, it somehow worked and we had to roll with it the next couple of days imo. By that point annul, sandroba and I should have been 100% clear mafia. However town did not see that except for palmar and even he still thought I'm town which I just can't believe.
But the moment annul would have flipped red they would have been able to see all those connections. They would have seen that VE was defending annul the whole game, they would have seen all things I had to do with annul, they would have seen sandrobs weird play and would have lynched us all 4 the next 4 days the moment annul flipped. So yeah, from n2 on I did everything I could to prevent an annul flip.
And yes, we actually analyzed a bit about the town players, pointing out where their weaknesses are and how you can confince them of something that's just utterly retarded.
This doesn't make sense, nor does it justify sacrificing VE and Risen.
Saying "they would've died anyway" doesn't justify the sacrifice, because you have no way of knowing that.
I liked sandro's play. However, annul+Risen messed it up by voting at #7 and #8. That was completely unnecessary.
The point of a split vote situation for mafia is to barely get one of the members to majority so that an unvote will save them. Everyone who stays on the wagon is indistinguishable. Only the unvoters look scum, so you want to minimize the unvoters.
It was possible to do the sacrifice with at least two less unvoters; I would argue that it would have been possible even in other ways (e.g. sacrificing Toad instead of sandro)
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We were first afraid of annul and later on about sandroba.
Annul was at 9 while at some point sandroba was 8 (or 8 vss 7?) and risen stepped in to even the votes. I'm sure of that!
Once that happened a bunch of townies jumped on sandroba as well and we started to have droubles saving him.
So those 5 votes short on annul didn't matter anymore, we had to defend sandroba at that point and that's "just" 3.
But again, the reasoning behind this was something like "well we're giving everybody away anyway, might as well just unvote everyone. No point in hiding that unvote when they can easily see that without the unvote"
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On December 19 2011 11:30 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 11:26 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok I think the discussion about how bad the mafia actually was is enough. I think most of us do agree with the fact, that not bussing annul was a bad idea. I know I wanted to bus annul, I know sandroba said it's the only possible way as well and from what I hear from Jackal I think he thought the same way.
That move was stupid, it somehow worked and we had to roll with it the next couple of days imo. By that point annul, sandroba and I should have been 100% clear mafia. However town did not see that except for palmar and even he still thought I'm town which I just can't believe.
But the moment annul would have flipped red they would have been able to see all those connections. They would have seen that VE was defending annul the whole game, they would have seen all things I had to do with annul, they would have seen sandrobs weird play and would have lynched us all 4 the next 4 days the moment annul flipped. So yeah, from n2 on I did everything I could to prevent an annul flip.
And yes, we actually analyzed a bit about the town players, pointing out where their weaknesses are and how you can confince them of something that's just utterly retarded. This doesn't make sense, nor does it justify sacrificing VE and Risen. Saying "they would've died anyway" doesn't justify the sacrifice, because you have no way of knowing that. I liked sandro's play. However, annul+Risen messed it up by voting at #7 and #8. That was completely unnecessary. The point of a split vote situation for mafia is to barely get one of the members to majority so that an unvote will save them. Everyone who stays on the wagon is indistinguishable. Only the unvoters look scum, so you want to minimize the unvoters. It was possible to do the sacrifice with at least two less unvoters; I would argue that it would have been possible even in other ways (e.g. sacrificing Toad instead of sandro)
yeah but without Risen voting sandroba sandroba was still 1 vote short and people said they don't believe we can make a voteswitch happen that late. We had to show that it's still possible because else people will just stay on annul.
The moment risen voted sandroba and it was 8-8 we got 3 additional townies voting him because of "well I guess we're still able to make it in time without the euros"
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On December 19 2011 11:32 Toadesstern wrote:
We were first afraid of annul and later on about sandroba.
Annul was at 9 while at some point sandroba was 8 (or 8 vss 7?) and risen stepped in to even the votes. I'm sure of that!
Once that happened a bunch of townies jumped on sandroba as well and we started to have droubles saving him.
So those 5 votes short on annul didn't matter anymore, we had to defend sandroba at that point and that's "just" 3.
But again, the reasoning behind this was something like "well we're giving everybody away anyway, might as well just unvote everyone. No point in hiding that unvote when they can easily see that without the unvote"
-_-
On December 04 2011 20:05 ZBot wrote:
Current votes:
sandroba (7): Jackal58, bumatlarge, VisceraEyes, Toadesstern, Mattchew, kingjames01, annul, Risen, TruthBringer, Refallen, vaderseven, -Risen, -Toadesstern, -annul, -VisceraEyes
annul (5): bumatlarge, Drazerk, Lanaia, sandroba, Mattchew, vaderseven, xsksc, hyshes, Refallen, TruthBringer, Toadesstern, -bumatlarge, -Toadesstern, -Mattchew, -TruthBringer, -Refallen, -vaderseven
hyshes (3): kingjames01, TruthBringer, annul, -annul, Risen, -TruthBringer, -kingjames01, -Risen, Risen, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes
Jackal58 (1): annul
vaderseven (0): annul, VisceraEyes, -VisceraEyes, -annul
Drazerk (0): annul, VisceraEyes, -annul, -VisceraEyes
Voting ends at December 15 2011 13:00. (It's over.)
The two votes highlighted in red were completely unnecessary, and indeed VE's unvote was unnecessary as well.
bum and mattchew unvoted annul to vote sandro early enough that it left annul with less than 9 votes and sandro with 6.
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On December 19 2011 11:34 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 11:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 19 2011 11:26 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok I think the discussion about how bad the mafia actually was is enough. I think most of us do agree with the fact, that not bussing annul was a bad idea. I know I wanted to bus annul, I know sandroba said it's the only possible way as well and from what I hear from Jackal I think he thought the same way.
That move was stupid, it somehow worked and we had to roll with it the next couple of days imo. By that point annul, sandroba and I should have been 100% clear mafia. However town did not see that except for palmar and even he still thought I'm town which I just can't believe.
But the moment annul would have flipped red they would have been able to see all those connections. They would have seen that VE was defending annul the whole game, they would have seen all things I had to do with annul, they would have seen sandrobs weird play and would have lynched us all 4 the next 4 days the moment annul flipped. So yeah, from n2 on I did everything I could to prevent an annul flip.
And yes, we actually analyzed a bit about the town players, pointing out where their weaknesses are and how you can confince them of something that's just utterly retarded. This doesn't make sense, nor does it justify sacrificing VE and Risen. Saying "they would've died anyway" doesn't justify the sacrifice, because you have no way of knowing that. I liked sandro's play. However, annul+Risen messed it up by voting at #7 and #8. That was completely unnecessary. The point of a split vote situation for mafia is to barely get one of the members to majority so that an unvote will save them. Everyone who stays on the wagon is indistinguishable. Only the unvoters look scum, so you want to minimize the unvoters. It was possible to do the sacrifice with at least two less unvoters; I would argue that it would have been possible even in other ways (e.g. sacrificing Toad instead of sandro) yeah but without Risen voting sandroba sandroba was still 1 vote short and people said they don't believe we can make a voteswitch happen that late. We had to show that it's still possible because else people will just stay on annul. The moment risen voted sandroba and it was 8-8 we got 3 additional townies voting him because of "well I guess we're still able to make it in time without the euros"
The three additional townies were completely unnecessary!
Annul had already been saved BEFORE Risen voted him, and sandro was not in danger of being lynched.
The point wasn't to bus sandro, it was to force a no-lynch. Thus, annul's and risen's votes were pointless.
Sandro was at 6 when annul+Risen voted him and annul was at 8, with sandro and you being one of the 8.
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EPT
