EPTwtf was Refallen doing? How do you let syllo Radfield and Palmar all die?
TL Mafia XLVIII - Page 170
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
wtf was Refallen doing? How do you let syllo Radfield and Palmar all die? | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:02 Curu wrote: lol that's a joke. If any of the capable Town players had survived (or had anyone even listened to them) Town likely had an overwhelming victory. I was talking with syllogism and we were able to establish Jackal as scum and redFF as Town in the first like 10 pages. You had Radfield and syllo pointing out how scummy Jackal was, you had Radfield AND syllo AND Palmar all telling you that annul was 100% scum. You had Toadesstern saying ridiculous shit like"I think annul is Mafia but since vaderseven said he is Town I will listen to vaderseven" which is basically CLAIMING MAFIA. The last minute switch to redFF I think is the worst play I have ever seen out of a Town in the history of Mafia games. It's hilarious how the three best players in the game all accuse annul and all die and almost the entire scum team was bussing annul when he first came under pressure and Town still refused to lynch him. I said "I think annul is a coinflip and I'm trusting v7 as long as we got another viable lynch candidate" but yeah. I have no idea how people thought I am town d2. I can understand d1 and I think for my first game as mafia I did okayish looking town but d2 people should have called me out for being retarded. I guess the only reason noone called me out for that (rad even defended me all game long) was because I'm still new and it really could be a retarded townie. However there really was no excuse for thinking I'm town d3 :p | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Perhaps it's because we had a little activity problem as well. We haven't seen Sandroba in irc for a week and people called him out for doing nothing because he was busy while a lot of people did a lot of things without telling the rest what they're about to do. So we really thought we're dead if we don't save annul because again, sandroba was about to die as well if palmar had managed to kill annul (imo). We obviously did a lot wrong. Palmar having a 100% clear case on annul d2 is not exactly helping at all while at the same time sandroba was about to die or even modkilled because we never knew if he was going to vote in time or not. I thought (before n2) that the only 3 guys not being clear mafia at this time were jackal, risen and me and thought that the rest is going to get lynched very soon. That's part of the reason I agreed to commit so much. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:17 Curu wrote: lol I just noticed too wtf was Refallen doing? How do you let syllo Radfield and Palmar all die? It was only n1. N2 he successfully protected Palmar. N3 he was roleblocked. | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:19 Toadesstern wrote: I said "I think annul is a coinflip and I'm trusting v7 as long as we got another viable lynch candidate" but yeah. I have no idea how people thought I am town d2. I can understand d1 and I think for my first game as mafia I did okayish looking town but d2 people should have called me out for being retarded. I guess the only reason noone called me out for that (rad even defended me all game long) was because I'm still new and it really could be a retarded townie. However there really was no excuse for thinking I'm town d3 :p I only remember reading that one post but it was so ridiculous. Like you have syllo/Radfield/Palmar all telling you with great clearcut cases that annul is Mafia but instead you decided to listen to vaderseven who cleared him as Town entirely because of his role. It was such a deadset scum giveaway lol, especially the way you posted it without any regards to the cases. I am really surprised no one caught onto it. Luckily the entire Town decided to listen to vaderseven as well. | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:29 wherebugsgo wrote: It was only n1. N2 he successfully protected Palmar. N3 he was roleblocked. Oh I just looked at the player list at the beginning and saw them all die before the Medic. Didn't have any idea what actually happened. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:02 Curu wrote: lol that's a joke. If any of the capable Town players had survived (or had anyone even listened to them) Town likely had an overwhelming victory. I was talking with syllogism and we were able to establish Jackal as scum and redFF as Town in the first like 10 pages. You had Radfield and syllo pointing out how scummy Jackal was, you had Radfield AND syllo AND Palmar all telling you that annul was 100% scum. You had Toadesstern saying ridiculous shit like"I think annul is Mafia but since vaderseven said he is Town I will listen to vaderseven" which is basically CLAIMING MAFIA. The last minute switch to redFF I think is the worst play I have ever seen out of a Town in the history of Mafia games. It's hilarious how the three best players in the game all accuse annul and all die and almost the entire scum team was bussing annul when he first came under pressure and Town still refused to lynch him. There is a reason Radfield, Syllo, Palmar died early. And getting redFF lynched instead of Annul is more about brilliant scum play than bad town play. Give us a little credit man. Bad town play happens when you have a very active scum team. We had a hyperactive scum team. I was the least active of us and I still outposted half the townies in the game. | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:19 Toadesstern wrote: I said "I think annul is a coinflip and I'm trusting v7 as long as we got another viable lynch candidate" but yeah. I have no idea how people thought I am town d2. I can understand d1 and I think for my first game as mafia I did okayish looking town but d2 people should have called me out for being retarded. I guess the only reason noone called me out for that (rad even defended me all game long) was because I'm still new and it really could be a retarded townie. However there really was no excuse for thinking I'm town d3 :p Your scum play was pretty good, you actually looked more like a townie in this game than in the other game I played with you. I correctly called you out as a scum medic on d3 though, it's a shame I'm terrible at persuading other townies though, I need to work on that for next time  | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:31 Curu wrote: I only remember reading that one post but it was so ridiculous. Like you have syllo/Radfield/Palmar all telling you with great clearcut cases that annul is Mafia but instead you decided to listen to vaderseven who cleared him as Town entirely because of his role. It was such a deadset scum giveaway lol, especially the way you posted it without any regards to the cases. I am really surprised no one caught onto it. Luckily the entire Town decided to listen to vaderseven as well. yeah I was suprised as well. I was literally sitting in our irc channel saying "there's no way I can not vote for annul. I can not think of a single reason I should not vote for annul..." and sheeping someone was the only thing I came up with because that's a thing people will maybe give me because I'm still new :p | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:15 annul wrote: bottom line is the 2 KP coupled with the fact we had NO offense coupled with the fact town had a full medic, 2 shot vig, JAILKEEPER, and a jack, meant it was crazy imba. we had to play perfectly to get a chance to win. we did. our last minute plans worked. we held jackal back knowing of the floridian powers that town had no idea we had. you don't know the meaning of "balance." Sorry, but the reason mafia lost 5 members was because you decided to troll town. You could've picked far better ways to get the no-lynch to work, the sacrifice of all 5 of you was completely unnecessary. Also, again, get your head out of your ass and learn about standard setups. XLIV: Setup was 30 players with KP being n/2. Town had two vigilantes, a watcher, a tracker, a sane cop, a naive cop, a veteran, and two medics. In all, 8 power roles out of 24 players, or 1/3 of the town playerbase. Scum had a roleblocker and framer, KP n/2. That was it. 1/3 of them were power roles by ratio in a game in which they comprised 20% of the total playerbase. In this game, we had 24 players total with 6 town power roles. One vig, one medic, one Jack, one parity cop (not even a reg cop), one jailkeeper (gimped medic), a Floridian (extra vote woo). Scum had 3 of the same roles and a roleblocker to match the jailkeeper's potential offensive roleblock (although in a game this size that's a fucking terrible use of the jailkeeper ability). 4/6 power roles on the scumteam; 2/3 ratio in a SMALLER game. Now compare that to XLIV. You essentially start the game with 6 free kills, and you even have an extra kill in the dayvig. Thus, your cycle 1 KP was still 3, and every cycle after that saw a reduction to 2 kp. You only get knocked down to 1 kp after losing THREE members, you don't lose KP after losing two. With 6 less townies and KP of 3 day cycle 1 you don't need n/2 to win. You've already essentially made up for 7 KP by the first night. In the XLIV equivalent, you would be even at day 7. Imbalanced my ass. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I guess I claimed mafia like 3 times without realising I just did :p | ||
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Refallen
452 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:17 Curu wrote: lol I just noticed too wtf was Refallen doing? How do you let syllo Radfield and Palmar all die? I admit I did a lot wrong and not much right. Especially night 1, since I had no idea who all these players were nor drazerk's history of fake role-claiming. Nor did I know that syllo was a super good player. And radfield died because I protected Palmar from a hit the same night. I think my problems were that though I had some scum reads which were quite accurate, I didn't make clear cases on them. Any more feedback is appreciated | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:15 annul wrote: bottom line is the 2 KP coupled with the fact we had NO offense coupled with the fact town had a full medic, 2 shot vig, JAILKEEPER, and a jack, meant it was crazy imba. we had to play perfectly to get a chance to win. we did. our last minute plans worked. we held jackal back knowing of the floridian powers that town had no idea we had. On December 19 2011 09:38 wherebugsgo wrote: you don't know the meaning of "balance." Sorry, but the reason mafia lost 5 members was because you decided to troll town. You could've picked far better ways to get the no-lynch to work, the sacrifice of all 5 of you was completely unnecessary. Also, again, get your head out of your ass and learn about standard setups. XLIV: Setup was 30 players with KP being n/2. Town had two vigilantes, a watcher, a tracker, a sane cop, a naive cop, a veteran, and two medics. In all, 8 power roles out of 24 players, or 1/3 of the town playerbase. Scum had a roleblocker and framer, KP n/2. That was it. 1/3 of them were power roles by ratio in a game in which they comprised 20% of the total playerbase. In this game, we had 24 players total with 6 town power roles. One vig, one medic, one Jack, one parity cop (not even a reg cop), one jailkeeper (gimped medic), a Floridian (extra vote woo). Scum had 3 of the same roles and a roleblocker to match the jailkeeper's potential offensive roleblock (although in a game this size that's a fucking terrible use of the jailkeeper ability). 4/6 power roles on the scumteam; 2/3 ratio in a SMALLER game. Now compare that to XLIV. You essentially start the game with 6 free kills, and you even have an extra kill in the dayvig. Thus, your cycle 1 KP was still 3, and every cycle after that saw a reduction to 2 kp. You only get knocked down to 1 kp after losing THREE members, you don't lose KP after losing two. With 6 less townies and KP of 3 day cycle 1 you don't need n/2 to win. You've already essentially made up for 7 KP by the first night. In the XLIV equivalent, you would be even at day 7. Imbalanced my ass. oh and even better: compare this game to XLV. In XLV scum started with 2.5 KP with KP being n/2 (they had a power role that had .5 KP every night) XLV was 20 players, 4 scum 16 town. This game was 25 players, 19 town 6 scum. Add 3 town, add 2 scum. Your half KP loss is balanced by the introduction of a dayvig, thus ensuring the kill gets in. Still town-favored to you? Steamship, 26 total players. 21 town, 5 scum. Compare that to this game, in which we had 19 town and 6 scum. Steamship had mafia KP of 2 and a role sniper that had to guess the role to kill it. Still imbalanced? Mafia XLIII. 21 players total, 17 town and 4 scum. Compare to this game, which had 19 town and 6 scum; Add two town, add two scum. KP was the same. Still imbalanced? Annul, you're full of shit. | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:44 Refallen wrote: I admit I did a lot wrong and not much right. Especially night 1, since I had no idea who all these players were nor drazerk's history of fake role-claiming. Nor did I know that syllo was a super good player. And radfield died because I protected Palmar from a hit the same night. I think my problems were that though I had some scum reads which were quite accurate, I didn't make clear cases on them. Any more feedback is appreciated No it wasn't your fault, looking at the actions you did what you could. It was just an initial "whoa how did Refallen not die till then and everyone else did?" reaction from me. @Jackal You were all active but almost all of you were so openly scummy with your posting. I'm confident if Rad/syllo/Palmar had survived a bit longer or people had actually listened to them the game wouldn't have been nearly so onesided. Your opening posts were so cautious and careful (whereas you are like super kamikaze man when you are Town) that I was screaming at syllo that you were scum as soon as the game started. I was going to ask him to shoot you but he went with annul instead. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22634 Posts
On December 19 2011 06:51 prplhz wrote: Well, I was actually referring to syllogism's "You guys will never improve"-thing. It's like when Ace made that post saying "Everybody sucks" and then just left it there, I have played like 50 games and I still suck but I only really started improving after a lot of nice people started me giving some really good advice I think people here need to listen to the people who are considered good players a lot more (one of the advice I myself was given at some point and that drastically improved my play). Learn to get a good read on them and learn how they play and then put them in the spot light, there they will either perform or they will out themselves. Learn to read the special cases that are the experienced players first and then listen to what they have to say 'cause they're often right, or they will sound stupid, then move on to start scum hunting for real yourself. Town hunting is a lot easier I'd say Also, if one good player says something and 10 not-so-good players say something else, it's usually the good player who is right.Dunno, I really shouldn't be giving advice but that's my take on this game. I was actually not entirely convinced about annul either, but I was very sure that Palmar was town and I was very sure that syllogism had shot annul, so that was two good players saying that a guy was definitely scum, and that very often means that he's scum. Also, yea Drazerk you need a break from mafia I think  You had a god damn mental break down this game. Totally contrary to how you played in XLVII which I enjoyed a lot This post, both the content, the thought process behind it, is the reason prplhz is quickly becoming one of the best players on this forum. Awesome job in your recent games as town prplhz. Jackal played a very strong scum game, pretty unsurprising I guess, he's awesome as scum. The redFF lynch was well... kinda ok scumplay, remember that I tore apart Zephirdd's case against redFF on day 2. I don't think it was terribly bad town play either, of course it was far from optimal. I think the main problem was redFF himself, he had such a bad game this time around, his reads were all way off. Happens to everyone though, he's a decent player. Refallen, you did sort of well this game. Lanaia, Mattchew, Drazerk, Vaderseven, Kingjames, Truthbringer, you all really, really need to step up your game. I'm sorry for not being clear enough with the case against annul, I really should have gotten him lynched, but having to go to sleep 5 hours before the deadline is kinda hard. I'd rate my play this game okay. Scum played "well" given the situation. Any non-retarded town would've completely smashed you guys, but you correctly read the situation and realized you could get away with this. That's very good call on your behalf, and man, Jackal is such a fucking monster as scum. I hope you all liked my video | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play. the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 19 2011 10:09 annul wrote: so WBG it seems like your argument is "other games have shit balance so its okay that my game has shit balance too" our sacrifice play was correct. barring 1%> chances of the correct power roles doing their shit, our day 4 play won the game, NATURALLY the miracle saves occurred, but that doesnt make the play a bad play. the fact remains that in order to even get to that position we needed perfect play. so you're saying that every standard game ever played in the TL Mafia subforum has been grossly town favored? LOL. You don't sacrifice FIVE scum to no-lynch, and I am certain every single one of your teammates would agree on that. I already know VE and sandro agree with me on that. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On December 19 2011 10:05 Palmar wrote: This post, both the content, the thought process behind it, is the reason prplhz is quickly becoming one of the best players on this forum. Awesome job in your recent games as town prplhz. Jackal played a very strong scum game, pretty unsurprising I guess, he's awesome as scum. The redFF lynch was well... kinda ok scumplay, remember that I tore apart Zephirdd's case against redFF on day 2. I don't think it was terribly bad town play either, of course it was far from optimal. I think the main problem was redFF himself, he had such a bad game this time around, his reads were all way off. Happens to everyone though, he's a decent player. Refallen, you did sort of well this game. Lanaia, Mattchew, Drazerk, Vaderseven, Kingjames, Truthbringer, you all really, really need to step up your game. I'm sorry for not being clear enough with the case against annul, I really should have gotten him lynched, but having to go to sleep 5 hours before the deadline is kinda hard. I'd rate my play this game okay. Scum played "well" given the situation. Any non-retarded town would've completely smashed you guys, but you correctly read the situation and realized you could get away with this. That's very good call on your behalf, and man, Jackal is such a fucking monster as scum. I hope you all liked my video Thanks Palmar. I'm only good at scum when I don't try to make some stupid claim. I do that about half the time. And I couldn't comment on your video the way I eally felt I should have at the time I saw it. My response when I saw it was Aww dude. I'm sorry, but I'm scum. WBG the mass outing on day 4 wasn't stupid. It was brilliant. It destroyed any and all ability for town to scum hunt or analyze. xtstc tried and I jumped his ass for it immediately. Any discussion would appear scummy. Town had 5 people to lynch. Let's lynch them and then deal with the remaining scum. We discussed this in the IRQ. From the possibility to a win because of the mislynch to who should we hide if it goes down to worse case scenario of 3 vs 1. At the point we did that we gagged town. We only needed 1 wrong vote. Just 1 wrong vote. We got it. Don't call it stupid. It was intentional. It was planned. It was calculated. I wasn't completely sold on it when it went into action and I told the guys. But it was not bad play. Even if I had been immediately lynched today it was not bad play. It turned the game for us. Just 1 wrong vote man. We got it. | ||
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