EPT/in
World at War 2 Mafia
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Palmar
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On July 05 2011 09:01 GMarshal wrote: Oh, well then. ##Nuke: Palmar My work here is done. (seriously, I'm considering the possibility of starting the game with nuclear war. For giggles) The best part is I'm planning the same. | ||
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On July 05 2011 09:14 Kurumi wrote: You know that You'd help Conspirator win more than Yourselves? And there is the person I was planning on nuking! | ||
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GMarshal's plan is dumb, even scummy. Chaos13 makes sense. Just treat your nukes like vigi shots. | ||
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On July 05 2011 18:18 prplhz wrote: I think the whole idea that nukes can be used in a controlled way is absurd .. it may work but if it backfires it could really mean disaster and I don't think it's worth the risk. I suggest we just go about this game as if noone would have any reason to nuke ever unless they are conspirators. The whole "I think maybe we can use this many nukes before the earth self destructs" is a pretty bad gamble. Imagine if someone suggested it irl. So far I'm pretty skeptical towards sandroba and GMarshal 'cause they are quite foolishly proposing that we use nukes in a controlled way, something that can only lead to disaster. Not so much about Chaos13. Also stop talking about confirmed scum. That's a bad idea too btw. | ||
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Nukes are vigi shots. Vigi shots are a great asset to town because they cannot by influenced by mafia, and it has statistically a tiny bit higher chance of hitting mafia than lynches. Just read RTM mafia to see what independent and good vigi shots can do to a mafia team. GMs plan is soooo bad, retaliatory nuking is basically stupid. If someone launches a dumb nuke, then the absolutely worst way of tackling the problem is nuking him right back. Unless of course you think that person is scummy, then by all means nuke him. Sandroba's is slightly less bad, but still wrests control away from townies. I'm a big advocate of the "shoot early, shoot independently, shoot scum and shoot often" vigilante policy. Clearly with the radiation thing this has to be scaled back a little bit, but for the most part, it still applies, just chill a bit and think again before you shoot. So, without further ado, I introduce an alternative to all the dumb shit that's been going on. I will require every major nation in the world to sign this agreement. The Palmar Agreement: 1. Article - Nuke Scum 2. Article - Don't be an idiot 3. Article ##Vote: GMarshal | ||
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On July 05 2011 18:52 sandroba wrote: @palmar except that if this game is like the previous both scum and town have nukes. Nukes are not like vig shots because they lead to 3rd party win. Also probably have a fuckton of players with nukes and if every one "tries to hit scum" with it we are screwed. That's why I said "just chill a bit" in my text. yes, scum probably has nukes. You're working under the misconception that somehow allowing people to vote or agree on a nuke is bending to the town's will, this is incorrect. The town is, and will always be, controlled by few vocal members that are charismatic and convincing enough to lead the rest along with them on crusades. Vigilante shots (or nukes) provide a great alternative to that. If the town "council" of people who lead the town are missing something or even in worst case being messed with by scum, that's when we really need independent vigilante shots. Don't try to control town. Also, if everyone signs my agreement, then there's a clause that says "Don't be an idiot", and thus we will not have stupid or useless nukes. | ||
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On July 05 2011 19:12 sandroba wrote: @Curu Based on last game. I thought I read it in the op, but it says "night kills", so I'm probably wrong. Still all the more incentive to have double lynches every day. Vigs work well because they are hidden and can claim their shot in thread afterwards to confirm themselves etc (since they are protown in most setups). Nukes are NOTHING like that because they have to be announced in thread, which tends to generate hate and retaliation when the player flips green and turn into a chain reaction of townie deaths. Independant thinking is gonna lead us to disaster, you can mark my words (or read WaW 1). If you want to nuke a player that badly just fucking explain us why and we will vote on it. Whatever. I'm not gonna shit up the thread by discussing a bad plan, I'm going to rely on people not being dumb as fuck. But hey, if anyone wants to play your little stifling game, then all the power to you. | ||
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I read Caller's soviet game, yes it was infested with retards trying to troll the game. I'm just going to trust that people learn from mistakes and try to use critical thinking to further our cause. But hey, I adhere to my own plan though, I'm not going to nuke anyone unless I have a really good reason to, cause you know, I'm actually going to try and win this thing. You see, the plans we're arguing about are in effect quite similar, we both plan to only nuke scummy players. The difference is only the method we want to use to apply this. And of course we lynch players who launch outright stupid nukes, and preferably shoot down their nukes. The mafia already cannot use their nukes, because we will spot it immediately if it's a bad nuke, shoot it down and lynch the launcher. I just don't want it to be directed by the town council. | ||
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On July 05 2011 20:05 syllogism wrote: The OP specifically states that "Each player has a random amount of nuclear weapons (from 1-2)（unless otherwise specified） that they may shoot on any person they wish during this phase" It may be possible that there are a few special roles with no nukes, but the vast majority of players should have at least one I'll just immediately dispel that. I have no nukes. | ||
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@MiG, I don't think I personally would be more likely to hit scum, but I know a little secret I'll share with you: The best convincing people/town leaders != the best scumhunters I consider myself in the former category, I can get people lynched, but I'm not great at hunting scum. If a great scumhunter has a good case that's being ignored in a shitstorm of town discussion, then I want that player to be able to shoot his nuke without fearing to be owned. However if a terrible nuke is launched, I completely agree with shooting it down and lynching the launcher. | ||
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On July 05 2011 20:35 Mig wrote: Palmar yes it would be unfortunate if there were some great scum hunter who was shitty at arguing and couldn't get his point across but at the same time we are preventing all the people who are shitty scum hunters from firing randomly into the town. You are basically arguing it is better for everyone to work alone instead of as a team, which cannot possibly be correct. I want the option to be there. As I've said, if it's a terrible shot, we'll stop it. And for the most part, the discussion will be focused on the lynch. I don't agree, can we now drop it, as it certainly looks like no one is going to be firing their missiles like retards and we're shitting up the thread? In general terms, working as a team is the better options, but we don't know who's leading that team, there needs to be induvidual thought. But as I said, I have much less problems with the plan you've proposed than GM's original one which was basically: "Let's nuke the fuck out of everyone who lurks, and everyone who nukes too" That really bothered me. But I'll agree to disagree if you will. | ||
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I'll pretend to go with your plan at the moment, as I'm a non-factor in it anyway. I sure as hell hope that people have the balls to nuke later in the game before a mafia infested town council leads us to hell. | ||
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##Nuke: Sandroba | ||
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On July 05 2011 21:53 sandroba wrote: Night has not even started and the nuclear phase is during the day after that. This is correct  And as I said, I don't have any nukes. Anyway, I still don't agree with the plan. All the mafia has to do is to not lurk and they will be able to sway the nuke votes in the wrong direction. We already have to deal with this problem for the lynch, so why the added reliance on outspoken players? Here's an alternative, since you guys like policies. a) Don't nuke unless you're sure. b) when you nuke, you must provide detailed reasoning of why you nuked c) If deemed satisfying, we proceed normally, if not, we lynch you. This is in effect the same thing you're suggesting sandroba, it just leaves a little wiggle room for independent thought. | ||
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On July 05 2011 22:03 sandroba wrote: @Palmar LOL? If that's so any game is auto won by mafia if all they have to do is not lurk and sway the votes. How do you propose we win the game if not by lynching scum. I'm tired of arguing with you, because you are either scum or conspirator, so from now on I'll ignore your post till I can lynch you. I already have all the info I need to prove that you are not town aligned. By your logic, the only benefit of having vigilantes is the self-confirm thing. I don't agree, I think the independent shot is also excellent for town. Also, nice twisting of my words, I didn't say the scum would auto-win, all I said is that they can win like that, and you're suggesting removing one tool to counter it. Does scum win all games that are vanilla v vanilla? Hell no. Would a vigilante (and let's assume he can't confirm himself) help the town in this situation? Hell yes. And sure, your plan can lead to victory for us, this is especially true if like in RTM the outspoken and opinion-giving people are all pro-town, are you just going to assume the mafia is playing badly? | ||
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On July 05 2011 22:08 chaos13 wrote: (Your Name)'s Plan for Not Letting the Conspirator Win Nuke Policy Fire/Don't Fire under the following circumstances: Punishment This is what happens if you break the rules: Why Explanation for why this is the best plan: Support How does this plan compare to WaW 1? How could it have affected the results of that game? Other Tidbits Anything else you want to say. ##Vote: (Your Name)'s Plan Chaos13 is the one person who's not been derping so far, but I'll humour the planners and do this. Palmar's Plan for Not Letting the Conspirator Win Nuke Policy Fire only when you have a strong scum read on someone. You must in addition provide an analysis to support your launch. Remember, it's a good thing to bring up an analysis and try to get the person lynched instead, but if the town council shoots it down due to bads (like I did when people wanted to lynch VE on day 2 in RTM), then you should launch. In addition, if you're a newer player, or a bad player, you should probably not launch anyway. Leave the nuking up to the pros. There will be NO retaliatory nukes. Punishment If you provide an analysis that gets shot down because it's bad, not because the town is bad, and then you nuke anyway, the town will take swift action and lynch you. Yes, we are policy lynching dumb nukes. Why Because it gives good people free hands on nuking, essentially giving us an additional way to deal with mafia. There is a chance that the will of the town is being manipulated by a good scum, this is where good analysts have a chance to show their worth. Removing the opportunity for independent action is removing a tool from our arsenal to fight scum. In addition, the "we lynch you if your launch is bad" policy should be enough to provide deterrent from nuking badly. Support WaW1 had much more trolls and idiots than this game has. I'd like to compare it to RTM where independently working vigis and hatters provided a great service to town. Like, if we ever end up in a scenario where people are trolling, we hold our fire and lynch them all. Other Tidbits Not really, I've said what I wanted to say. ##Vote: Palmar's Plan | ||
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On July 05 2011 22:30 sandroba wrote: @Palmar It's not a council when anyone can vote. Nice try btw. ... Are you intentionally trying to be thick? You know just as well as I that the lynches are always led by some people. VE was never going to be hanged in RTM on day 2, because I was leading the town in the wrong direction. OpZ saw this, and fixed it, sparing us a fuckton of trouble. @Chaos13, what more deterrence is there than being lynched? I am proposing exactly the same plan as GMarshal and Sandroba, just removing the voting process. If you can think of a better way, I'm all ears, cause I don't want stupid people nuking. In essence, we are discussing the same plan three times, just with variable amount of agreeing by the town. I'm not saying Sandroba's plan will autolose, it's actually a pretty decent plan for what it's worth, I'm just saying we have a better alternative. | ||
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On July 05 2011 22:37 syllogism wrote: Palmar: If there's no structure, it's quite likely your nuke will be shot down, gaining us little to no information and thus wasting a nuke and an anti-nuke. Stating you should nuke despite town objections if "town is bad" and then saying you shouldn't get lynched if "town was bad" makes no sense because presumably you will get lynched if the majority of town disagreed with your nuke and the target doesn't flip red. I do not see how this is in any way pro-town. Even worse, you may get retaliated. Nukes aren't exactly like vigi shots. Palmar plan is plain bad. I'm reserving the "nuke only if town is being led astray" thing for pros and great analysts. And my plan clearly said: "No retaliatory nukes", any retaliatory nuke is auto lynch. | ||
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On July 05 2011 22:47 syllogism wrote: Another problem with your plan is that because it's not up to the majority to decide when someone gets nuked, it's impossible to tell when you should role claim. Once the nuke is in air, role claiming will cost us an anti-nuke and if done prematurely, you role claim for no reason. This is a great point, I hadn't thought of that. Like, this point is actually so good that I'm retracting everything I've said. Despite concerns of independence, allowing people to explain their roles is even more important if they're up for a lynch. Fuck me... | ||
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On July 05 2011 22:57 sandroba wrote: What you can guarantee is that the majority of the players are pro-town and while you can't guarantee that the majority will vote for a mafia, you can guarantee that we are playing skill vs skill in an extremelly town favored field. If this was true, town would win vanilla games majority of the time (they don't) But as I said, it's a non issue. Syllo actually pointed out something that none of us had thought about, and with that information in mind I retract my opinions. | ||
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On July 05 2011 23:09 sandroba wrote: Stop being silly and read what I posted. Not every game we have 2 lynches per night cycle. I also didn't claim town would win 100% of the time under those circumstances, I said it's extremelly town favored and town should win most of the time given the same skill. you sure about that in a vanilla game? I'm pretty sure the scum can easily win even if there are double lynches and no night kills. But let's drop it, your plan allows for roleclaims and mine does not, so let's roll with yours. | ||
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I'm still thinking how we can introduce the possibility for defense without launching nukes, and yet keep people thinking outside of the dominant town council. But yeah, until we have a better solution, I can go with it. As I said, it isn't terrible, it's even pretty good, just there is a flaw that I thought I could fix, but that fix apparently introduced an even bigger flaw in the fact that nukes can't be cancelled. Despite this being the plan, I plead that everyone keeps thinking individually from the loudest town players. | ||
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On July 05 2011 23:14 GMarshal wrote: I disagree. Town usually sucks at hitting scum, double lynch is situational, which is why we implemented the threshold system. Remember double lynch means LYLO comes much faster. We shouldn't be afraid to double lynch, nor should we shy away from not nuking if the situation doesn't call for it, there is no reason why we *have* to lynch if we don't have a decent target. I agree with this btw, my entire argument was based around that sometimes town just doesn't seem to get the lynches done, so an alternative resource to pull from would be good. | ||
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On July 05 2011 23:36 Ciryandor wrote: It's quite nice to read as I catch up that everyone has thought it is a good idea to do a no-nuke unless absolutely necessary AND agreed upon by town as its policy, to stifle the chances of the Conspirator winning as the town tries to take out the Mafia. While right now, I do agree with Palmar's invocation that we should keep independent thought on our targets, at the end of the day, one has to show WHY it would be a good idea to nuke someone, then as the person who proposed it, take the shot themselves if they have a nuke at hand. Could someone update me on how long there is time left before the deadline? I essentially withdrew my suggestion after syllo pointed out a flaw in it. If someone has a role that we for some reason want to keep alive (ie, can easily confirm, or we think it's a legit pro-town claim), we'd have to waste anti missiles to stop the missile heading his way. With the vote, the person can claim before the nuke launches, so we can then decide whether or not we decide to send the kill in, saving us potentially both a pro-town nuke and a pro-town anti-nuke. So yeah, at the moment the vote seems like the way to go. | ||
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On July 06 2011 01:53 JeeJee wrote: this isn't unique to WaW1. Ace's game where everybody had a gun? Same outcome. I would be very surprised if it doesn't happen here. As of now I'm considering everybody a triggerhappy idiot. Prove me wrong. I actually have far more belief in this playerbase. As you can see on my crusade against the "only nuke when it's agreed upon" idea. But yes, I really don't think we have to worry too much about random nuking in this game. With that in mind, I'm going to go completely against what I usually suggest and just throw this out there: Assumptions: a) too many nukes and we lose b) nukes become more accurate late-game Conclusion: Should we perhaps just... not nuke today? Sandroba's plan assumes the nuke is a double lynch, which is perfectly fine, but this is also a double lynch on a timer, one that ticks every time we nuke, and we can assume that every time a mafia is up against the wall he will nuke everything he can. So, how about it, I say we just ignore the nukes, for now. | ||
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On July 06 2011 02:32 youngminii wrote: /roleplay Commander GMarshal, I have an issue with your campaign for Operation Gunnerside. What is the point of destroying the Axis' nuclear weapons when we're supposed to be using them sparingly and only under our mutual consent? A nuclear strike by the Axis players will be suicide as they'll all be taken down immediately through non-nuclear means. Your two propositions in this war have been contradictory. I have my eyes on you. hi mr. conspirator | ||
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##:Operation Gunnerside | ||
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But yeah doesn't matter really, as I misunderstood the OP | ||
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FIRE ZE MISSILES ##NUKE: GMarshal | ||
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Also, did not know about the fact that duds remove extra lives... read that and was like "fuck..." Let's just pray I'm not randomly taking a life of our vet. | ||
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Players may continue to use missiles even if they do not have any nukes left but the missiles will not do any damage. | ||
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He's being nice, that's a scumtell for him. | ||
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On July 06 2011 07:57 Mig wrote: Can we lynch palmar yet? That's not very nice. | ||
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Mataza really overthinks everything as far as I know, he creates ideas out of thin air with no real thought behind them at all. But, the bandwagons... they're so tempting... ##Vote Mataza | ||
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On July 06 2011 09:18 kitaman27 wrote:? Palmar, what exactly were you trying to accomplish with your fake nuke? Seems like you need to follow your own advice. Nothing really, wouldn't have launched it if I had known that it could potentially take a life away from someone. It also confirms that I have no nukes, which seeing as I claimed it anyway, it's always good to prove that you're not lying. Just because I wanted to fire missiles, and I actually can (or thought I could) without any repercussions for town. There was a notable success in it though, I'm really suspicious of Kurumi based on his reactions to it. This really does not look like town Kurumi. I need to sleep, but he's one to keep an eye on. | ||
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On July 06 2011 09:23 Eiii wrote: Oh, and it's been said before but it bears repeating: no nukes day 1. We're NOT going to go down that path Thanks for popping in and providing good content that hasn't been discussed before. This makes you look really pro-town in my eyes. | ||
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First off I can't recall saying your plan is terrible. That notion was reserved for GMarshal's plan which involved a fuckton of nuking. I said your plan was less bad. You seem to be basing your analysis on meta against me, so you should know I am always against controlling blues as town, and always in favor of vigilantes shooting early and often. I believe that is the best way for town to win the game. I argued against people who had ideas on how to control DT checks and Vigilante shots in RTM, and the entire fiasco that happened in the pre-game is basically me defending the notion that people need to be able to think on your own. Also, I don't know why you keep doing this, you keep flat out lying to make your arguments look more convincing? The bad thing is that since I took a controversial stance people are probably going to glance over it and nod, instead of noting it. You say I don't want leadership? That's absolutely incorrect, I never said it. I firmly believe that strong leadership in town is always the way to go. You correctly identified parts of my play in RTM which involved taking lead in town, well my entire argument is based on the fact that I was wrong some of the time. That's where independent thinking helped us in that game. If you want to deprive us of individual thinking, then you better be sure that the town council is right all the time. To put it in RTM terms, since that seems to keep popping up, I'm afraid the kills on DropBear and VE would not have gone through if they had to deal with a voting process first. Now, Syllogism did point out a good point, and it's really his posting that made me change my mind on my own plan. Another staple of my argument was belief in the player-base. I still stand by the notion that this pool of players involve less trolls than the other WaW game. Difference between us is I'm approaching this from the innocent until proven guilty point, while you just assume that everyone is incompetent until proven otherwise. To summarize, your case against me is that I don't agree with your plan. Well know what? I still don't. But slowly I came to realize that my alternative was broken too. If someone comes up with a way that involves both independent thinking and the opportunity to defend, then I'm all ears. Thanks for telling us the mafia has one KP Sandroba, that'll come in handy. You want to nuke every day. And of course you're fine with leading bad lynches. Talk about a difference in meta-game, you sat back, pointed fingers, analysed and attacked in RTM, you're definitely playing the same type of Sandroba role this time around. In fact, depending on your flip in CC, I'd say you're far removed from your town meta. I'm not taking leadership the way I did in RTM, I simply don't have the time to commit to it like that anymore, I think quite a few people here know I started a new job on Monday. I'll never go down quietly as town though, because we could be lynching scum. That's a promise for this game and every game I play in. By the way, don't know if it's your plan, or the fact that I was simply correct, but look... no random nuking on day one! Maybe... maybe.... people can be sort-of trusted? That's my case for defense. Not agreeing with you is not a scumtell. I'd probably rather be looking at the people who sheeped behind your plan without a second look. I'll post the reasoning and explanation for my lynch vote later today. | ||
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I don't know if that was a joke, but I'm keeping my vote on Mataza, if he actually is trying to launch a proper nuke, then he should get lynched ASAP. | ||
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Right, that's most definitely him trying nuke, although I think that it won't land, based on the rules. Kurumi can wait until tomorrow, Mataza will nuke immediately as he has the chance. | ||
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On July 06 2011 16:49 Mig wrote: Are you sure the nuke isn't going to land palmar? Can any hosts clarify for us? I'm not, that's why I said "I think". | ||
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On July 06 2011 17:11 sandroba wrote: @Palmar I quoted the post where you called the plan bad. Nukes are not vigillante shots, for many reasons that I've stated before, yet you failed to acknowledge. I'm not preventing any blue roles from acting. Yes I want us to use controlled nuking to our advantage. 1 per day is not going to win the game for the conspirator. Period. You say no random nuking day 1 but you fucking broke your own rule and shorttened the day by 24hrs. yah, I said "less bad", not "terrible" And I still believe so, I think the plan has flaws, but at the moment it's all we got. I did throw out a missile, I didn't know it could do damage. Also, one nuke per day isn't going to win the conspirator the game, but one, plus however many retaliation nukes there are, plus random idiot nukes... I'm starting to doubt your motives sandroba. I said that we should not nuke day one, but you're fine with it, even when you know there is a timer ticking. | ||
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He nuked without voting consent, breaking Sandroba's policies. He nuked without first pushing with an analysis, breaking my policies. He should definitely be the one to hang tonight. | ||
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On July 06 2011 17:47 syllogism wrote: I'm pretty sure Mataza is town. This is the weakness of the plan; dumb townies. I still think he needs to be hanged, if we don't do it we might see scum that are not under suspicion at current do the same, and then just hide behind their good reputation. That's why it's a policy, we need to enforce it. | ||
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On July 06 2011 17:54 syllogism wrote: I'm not going to lynch someone I think is town, especially if the nuke didn't actually get launched So, first you call me out for not wanting to commit to a plan that I see flawed, but then as soon as the time comes to act on it, you pull out yourself? What's the point of the entire argument and creating policies if we're not going to follow them? We settled on a policy, I grudgingly did so and now people want me lynched for not instantly praising the policy, that might actually work in the conspirator's favor. Yes, I don't want to use a vote-nuke tomorrow either. We can do it later in the game, but Sandroba's eagerness to use nukes rubs me the wrong way. But we settled on it, if we don't lynch Mataza we've basically declared the policy worthless. The brilliant part of this is that you might even know Mataza is town, and thus when this is over, you reluctantly lynch him, but gain fuckton of town credit for "trying to stop a lynch on an innocent". I'm not going to buy this. We're lynching Mataza, and if he flips town, I'm not giving you any town credit for trying to stop it. As far as I'm concerned you're scum. I find your willingness to break policies very anti-town, it's actually worse than arguing against them, because you're basically tearing them apart at your own wish. | ||
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On July 06 2011 18:26 GMarshal wrote: Mataza nuked. Mataza dies. Alignment is irrelevant, this is a policy lynch, in fact, if the nuke phase isn't over I request permission to counternuke so that our lynch can actually generate information. I see no reason to counter-nuke him. Actually, this hardly makes any sense. Sure, lynching town is somewhat bad, but it must be done, I actually think there is a chance he's scum, so I'd be fine either way. But raising the radiation level for no reason, landing extra nukes on day one, only to take out someone who we're not even sure is scum... Nope, as far as I'm concerned we should not counter-nuke him. Remember my policies, the ones I pushed and have put me under suspicion? One of the things I said was "We nuke scum". Unless we somehow have a really strong case against Mataza out of thin air, I'm not okay with nuking him. | ||
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On July 06 2011 19:14 syllogism wrote: So with the options being lynching a scummy player (Palmar) and policy lynching a likely townie (ask yourself, is mafia ever going to be doing that on day 1 after we we had agreed to policy lynch anyone for it), why are so many of you going for the latter Ask yourself, is mafia ever going to shout foul and argue to the point I've done day 1? The mafia is definitely laughing their asses off because you mistake disagreement for scumtells. Or, quite likely, you're scum and you know we have to lynch Mataza, and this is your way of trying to gain town credit. | ||
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On July 06 2011 19:18 GMarshal wrote: Policy is policy for a reason. if we write off every random nuke as "oh, scum would NEVER do that" the then mafia is going to nuke to blend in. We are shutting down that option, now. This. | ||
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On July 06 2011 19:23 syllogism wrote: Palmar also nuked, but is that okay because it turned out to be a dud? What's the motivation for announcing you've no nukes as a townie and even demonstrating it 1. I wanted to fire ze missiles at GMarshal 2. I misunderstood sandroba and the rules, which lead to me claiming that I had no nukes. 3. I already announced that my missile was a dud, well before I launched it 4. I wanted to fire ze missiles at GMarshal 5. Since I had claimed anyway, I figured why not prove it. In addition, I'm really wary of Sandroba's plan of nuking daily, with who knows how many retaliatory and random nukes, so a shorter day where we just lynch isn't all bad. 6. I really fucking wanted to fire ze missiles at GMarshal. | ||
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On July 06 2011 20:39 syllogism wrote: Anyone wanting to lynch a townie is scum. The ones voting to lynch Mataza better believe there's at least a decent chance of him flipping red What needs to be looked at is you. I don't see any reason to believe Mataza is scum, but neither do I see why you think he's so obviously town. Firing that missile is a clearly anti-town move, but hey it's fine to ignore that when you already know he's town, right? Seriously, am I the only one who takes notice? This is scum play 101, get town credit by opposing a perfectly sensible lynch train because you have information that we don't. And aside from that, not lynching Mataza is dumb anyway, what the hell do you think happens tomorrow? or the other day? You demonstrate that the policies only apply if there is actually some sort of town agreement that the player in question is scummy, we get scum randomly nuking because they can get away with it. You can try to get me lynched tomorrow if you feel like it, but you're tearing this town apart by not following policies. If this ends in nuclear war, then you're responsible. It's such a clear contradiction, you say I'm anti-town cause I don't agree with policies, but in my book disagreement is far less scummy than outright breaking them. | ||
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On July 06 2011 23:32 syllogism wrote: So chaos13 who do you think has been scummy so far because there's a distinct lack of any finger pointing by you so far, which is quite unlike your usual play as far as I can tell Just to point it out, that's his normal town play day 1. He asks questions and acts really indecisive, I actually shot him for it in PTP, cause I thought he was scum. | ||
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I love it. | ||
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We kill Mataza, there is no deterrence in a policy if people don't follow the policy. This has the nasty side-effect of clogging our lynch today, but we just have to deal with it. Generally mafia games seem to be balance in such a way that the town can mislynch approximately as often as there are mafia in the game. For example in a 12 player setup with 3 mafia, there town loses if they mislynch 3 times and wins if they lynch correctly 3 times. Obviously every lynch changes, this, but best case and worst case are generally like this. Why am I talking about this? Because it has a direct influence on our situation. We have a conspirator in the game that likes radiation (Hi Sandroba). Even if (and I'm not even sure it is) the Mataza lynch is a mislynch, we can always make up for that with a nuke on day 4. The difference is that the longer we wait with nuking, the more accurate the nukes become. Sending a nuke after a possible townie is even worse than lynching one. It's a shitty situation, ideally we wouldn't have to kill Mataza because he didn't decide to troll the game, but it's one we have to deal with. The sensible thing is to do just that and then resume on day 2. Chaos13 called me out for creating town order, well I think I've been doing just that. While people like Syllo and Sandroba are tunneling me, the best thing I can do is to make sure they don't lynch me, while keeping the discussion alive. I don't have the same kind of time available in this game as in RTM, so don't expect me to spam as much, although I am always quite active. We cannot achieve town order if we so blatantly go back on our policies. I will not be pushing an alternative lynch today because if Mataza gets away with it, I think we're about to turn this game into armageddon. I will start pushing for another lynch as soon as day breaks. | ||
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On July 07 2011 00:56 syllogism wrote: Doesn's day end in like 10 minutes? I think the day gets extended for the duration of the nuke flight, not sure though. | ||
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On July 07 2011 01:14 TheAwesomeAll wrote: dont you think nuking is better, since thats the only way to get a proper lynch? Mafia will try to stay out of the spotlight as much as possible so if we force them to do a meaningful vote we get some good slips. for example skim through XL where the votes were basicly lists of mafia members if you combined them, now in this situation the votes will give just a list of townies, with mafia blend in. No, not really, as I see it we have two bad options. a) follow town policy at the cost of a possible bad lynch. It will take us a correct lynch to recover b) break town policy at the cost of radiation and the policy itself. I'm not quite sure what it will take us to recover Towns have recovered from bad day 1 lynches, the nuclear holocaust that could (or could not) happen with option b seems like the worse alternative. I'm not even sure Mataza is town, as nuking without reason is so anti-town that I can hardly believe anyone trying to play to their win condition would do it. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9bC1j.png) | ||
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On July 07 2011 02:33 youngminii wrote: okay mataza if you nuke anyone, i WILL intercept it however, that is forcing me to waste a valuable resource that is priceless for town hence, if you do nuke, you are undoubtedly going against your win condition as a townie unless you're the scum and not him | ||
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On July 07 2011 02:36 youngminii wrote: ask me anything i'm being as transparent as i can who is scum, and why? | ||
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On July 07 2011 02:39 JeeJee wrote: The fact that minii anti-nuked sandroba I think is a little bit odd. Think about what happened in WaW1, the only nukes that were shot down were aimed at mafia members (and I believe a mason). Why? If you're a townie, you don't know anything about anyone, and if you have any anti-nukes, they're in very limited supply. Why would you use them to save someone that you don't know is townie, when instead you can use them as self-defence, on someone you know is townie (yourself). Obviously mafia and masons can (and did) do so, because they know that they're saving a teammate. Just a thought... Someone who already randomly claimed out of nowhere information about the mafia KP that isn't in the OP. | ||
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On July 07 2011 02:42 TheAwesomeAll wrote: he bases everything on WaW1 which is a pretty good source i would say, also that is some pretty important information. However i think YM is being pro town with his nuking/ antiing. Sandy is obv no scum and the nuke was very uncalled for. it Had to be antied imo How the hell is sandroba obviously pro-town, to the point it warrants a save? | ||
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At this point I'm ready to lynch YM or Sandroba. | ||
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I don't trust YM one bit, no one has such a fucking foolproof town-read on day 1 that he wastes such an important resource on it, and I also think he's far less useful scum-hunting than his usual town play. But to be honest, GM flipping isn't a bad thing, he made a terrible plan at the start of the game, and hasn't contributed or scumhunted since. | ||
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On July 07 2011 03:21 youngminii wrote: when did i say i thought sandroba was 100% town i'm curious, is that why you think i'm scum? yes, you saved Sandroba. Sandroba who scumslipped the mafia 1kp thing. It may have just been a mistake, but he's been on my watchlist ever since. Also he keeps fucking repeating how obviously pro-town he is when he is far from being confirmed town. Then he derps some "HUGE analysis" which is worth about as much as my butt, and is all just random meta and based on the fact that I disagreed with his plan. Then he breaks his own fucking plan. Seriously, this is just retarded, I wish you had let that nuke land. | ||
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And for some reason he keeps linking German music with it. | ||
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On July 07 2011 03:39 youngminii wrote: as an australian i don't understand It's fine, keep shooting down missiles aimed at scum. | ||
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But hey, I probably don't know what I'm saying, as you were... blowing up the world. | ||
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On July 07 2011 03:47 GMarshal wrote: Remember what I said about overestimating the town? Yeah, I think I'm as guilty of that as you are. Can you imagine if we followed your plan though? Hmm... My plan would've done exactly the same as sandroba's. We'd have policy lynched Mataza and proceeded. But hey, TAA and YM don't need to follow no fucking plan, just nuke nuke nuke. And for the big finale, we have fucking Sandroba come in and randomly nuke into town, CAUSE IT'S SCUMMY TO DISAGREE WITH HIS POLICY, BUT PRO-TOWN TO BREAK IT AND NUKE TOWN. | ||
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On July 07 2011 03:53 GMarshal wrote: Yep, fully agree, when I flip green kill sand. Hell nuke him if you want, people have all pretty much decided that playing to win is less fun than NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST. Because NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST is hilarious, as is nuking people. I should have chosen the extra nukes rather than the extra life (which palmar shot out from under me) and the counter nuke, Imagine the fun I'd be having right now. Sorry about that, that really should've been in the rules. They even specifically stated that duds do no damage. But yeah, go for sandroba once I flip town and GM probably flips town too. | ||
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Youngminii is either scum or behaving strangely YM likes to play day 1 very aggressively, pointing fingers and attacking people, when he's town. This game he's been far more reserved and not really done anything except sheep after sand's analysis and TAA's request to nuke Mataza. Seriously, we almost managed to get through day 1 in an orderly fashion, we just had to lynch Mataza, prove that our policies were worth more than sandroba's analysis and proceed one day behind. But no, in comes the idiot train and fucking starts nuking and advocating nukes. Here are some interesting tidbits. On July 06 2011 02:32 youngminii wrote: /roleplay Commander GMarshal, I have an issue with your campaign for Operation Gunnerside. What is the point of destroying the Axis' nuclear weapons when we're supposed to be using them sparingly and only under our mutual consent? A nuclear strike by the Axis players will be suicide as they'll all be taken down immediately through non-nuclear means. Your two propositions in this war have been contradictory. I have my eyes on you. YM uses the fact that GMarshal is suggesting removing weapons to pin him as scum. Really? Do you not think smashing nukes is a good thing now? This is clearly in contradiction with YM's later actions of just randomly nuking. On July 06 2011 14:59 youngminii wrote: i don't know who to vote for you guys are all playing like maniacs ##Vote: Palmar His biggest analysis in game. And here is my analysis of YM On July 07 2011 01:55 Palmar wrote: here's a pic I drew you about YM's performance in this game. And finally, the most interesting tidbit is a little piece written by JeeJee, I completely agree with this by the way: On July 07 2011 02:39 JeeJee wrote: The fact that minii anti-nuked sandroba I think is a little bit odd. Think about what happened in WaW1, the only nukes that were shot down were aimed at mafia members (and I believe a mason). Why? If you're a townie, you don't know anything about anyone, and if you have any anti-nukes, they're in very limited supply. Why would you use them to save someone that you don't know is townie, when instead you can use them as self-defence, on someone you know is townie (yourself). Obviously mafia and masons can (and did) do so, because they know that they're saving a teammate. Just a thought... Now, when you're done blowing yourselves up and lynching townies, can you go back and kill youngminii? YM is scum | ||
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On July 07 2011 04:22 Mig wrote: Hey palmar this is why you don't trust the town to not be a bunch of idiots. If you give everyone a gun it turns them into retards. I just hope there is enough townies left after all these land for us to try and salvage this clusterfuck. I tried man, I tried. | ||
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Someone just nuke me and then you can nuke as much as you fucking want to as I'm the conspirator. | ||
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On July 07 2011 04:49 sandroba wrote: LOL. Or you are scum. Or conspirator imune to nukes. I'd rather lynch you TYVM. Yeah sure, I don't mind. | ||
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On July 07 2011 04:50 GMarshal wrote: Nope, when we hit the radiation limit we *still* die. and then... no one wins? or what? | ||
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I can win if I'm dead? I don't think so, but if I can, even more fun! | ||
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I wasn't about to die, I had like 5 votes on me, I just didn't want people to hold back the fun because of me. | ||
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On July 07 2011 04:54 youngminii wrote: if in your role pm it doesn't say "must be alive to win" then yes you'll win if you're dead same way you win when you're a dead townie and the town wins anyway meet your win conditions = win re-checked: Even if you die you win as long as the world ends. lol whatever I have no nukes, as I already proved, I have no resistances to anything. I just basically chill back and hope the town tears itself apart. | ||
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On July 07 2011 05:01 sandroba wrote: @JeeJee Well you might be right. Maybe his only goal to stay alive is to provoke people for nuking. Now he says that he doesn't want to ruin the fun, but what he really wants is for people to think they can freely nuke and still meet his wincon. He could still be scum, though, I don't feel confortable letting him leave. Caller, can the conspirator still win after dead? answered that for you btw, yes I can still win if you guys bring armageddon. | ||
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On July 07 2011 05:10 Curu wrote: Alright you know what. I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm just going to go with my own scum signals. You're either full of shit and detracting from Town or you're scum. Fire a nuke at me then. But if you have even a shred of your original intentions left do it with reasoning and because you think I am scum. WHY ARE YOU STILL CALLING YOURSELF OBVTOWN? You are NOT obvtown to me. The only thing you claim makes you so obvtown is because no one contradicted a country leader name claim. We AGREED to not put too much weight on role and name claims. But you must not care, you don't even care about your own policy. Just nuke him bro. He's scum | ||
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On July 07 2011 05:12 Curu wrote: No I'm not going to nuke him. I'm not at that "awwww shiet let's just do whatever" stage that everyone seems to be at. Hey people. You have a LYNCH too. Let's stop nuking everyone we find suspicious and instead present an argument and USE THE LYNCH. Nah screw that. Nuke him | ||
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On July 07 2011 05:16 Mig wrote: I seriously hate everyone. Especially sinani/sandroba/gm/palmar. You know a game is completely screwed when fucking kurumi is the voice of reason. That's not very nice. I'll draw more pictures as long as I'm in the game! And it doesn't matter for my win condition if I'm alive and dead, but I want to post random drawings and troll the thread. | ||
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On July 07 2011 05:20 Mig wrote: syllo how is that role powerful? And why the fuck do we care about it at all? He has no kp and he doesn't care which side wins. Just let him sit there. He wants to kill me, fuck that. Lynch him I'm voting for him. | ||
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On July 07 2011 05:24 Drazerk wrote: CONSPIRATOR SCUM! Caller help me vanquish him with your strength Don't let that monk fool you. Also, global warming and nuclear winters are both myth. | ||
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On July 07 2011 05:24 Cthsazsa wrote: Palmar claimed assassin when he was about to die in PTP.. Lol. Good times! | ||
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The available products are. 1. Picture The highest bidder will be able to select one other player in the game, whose performance and personality I will then analyse, and draw a picture accordingly. 2. Vote The highest bidder will tell me who I'm voting for, cause I don't give a shit as long as the world ends. 3. Full scale analysis The highest bidder selects a person for me to analyse. I will go through every post and point made by that person and try to honestly analyse if they are part of the scumteam or not. This will not be trolling, as I just see it as a way of practicing scumhunting, so it will be completely honest! 4. Fire a dud nuke The highest bidder will select a person for me to shoot a dud nuke at. That'll be funny cause I say so, and also funny if the person happens to be a veteran or something. And here is the money you're getting: Not everyone gets money, cause not everyone deserves money. Sandroba: 5000$ for being scum in CC Kurumi: 3000$ for being Kurumi Youngminii: 5000$ for furthering my objectives GMarshal: 5000$ for being funny Deconduo: 2000$ for hosting PTP Sinani206: 3000$ for furthering my objectives Syllo: 2000$ for being an angry, naked, sauna-bathing, vodka-drinking Fin Drazerk: 7000$ for massive role-claim-trolling and randomly self-implementing a post restriction OpZ: 5000$ for actually being good at this game chaos13: 3000$ for always trying Mataza: 3000$ because wtf? prplhz: 2000$ for hanging out on IRC JeeJee: 2000$ for being funny TAA: 2000$ because I feel like it Cthsazsa: 3000$ cause you're nice and I can't spell your name Mig: 3000$ for not giving up in RTM The rest of you are lurkers or people I haven't played with before, so you're not getting anything. Maybe next time. Enjoy. Spend it well, the Vote will be sold at 09:00 KST The rest will all be sold after the first night. | ||
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lol, screw you. Not doing that, I want to sell more shit tomorrow. | ||
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rest will be hammered at daybreak. | ||
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On July 07 2011 06:24 Coagulation wrote: palmer your scummy as fuck. you're just mad cause I didn't give you any money. | ||
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On July 07 2011 06:30 Mataza wrote: 3000$ everything I´ve got. Make a picture of me and what I did. You like to copy from Ace, don´tcha? Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal | ||
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Vote still for sale, 2.5 hours till it gets hammered. | ||
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I don't condone violence, but someone should probably nuke that Drazerk guy | ||
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On July 07 2011 08:05 Drazerk wrote: Please don't Radiation levels are already too high, let them be mod killed. Shut up you. GMarshal, you should totally shoot a nuke at a lurker, that's clearly the way forward. By the way, 1 hour left, no one has actually bid on my vote yet. | ||
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I am excluded, you bastard. | ||
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On July 07 2011 08:20 Eiii wrote: so what you're saying is I should get my nukes out now I think that's the only way to proceed for you. | ||
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Chaos13/GMarshal, 3500$ for TAA | ||
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Those will be sold at daybreak, you have all the night to bid on those. | ||
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GM trolling this thread so hard | ||
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I'm not staying up for a game where it doesn't even matter if I live or die, lol. | ||
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On July 07 2011 09:03 Drazerk wrote: I may follow suit I still expect a picture. Vote watchtowe or we all lose etc etc etc lol, like I give a shit Anyway, Chaos13 and GMarshal jointly bought my vote. Current money: Sandroba: 5000$ Kurumi: 3000$ Youngminii: 5000$ GMarshal: 4500$ Deconduo: 2000$ Sinani206: 3000$ Syllo: 2000$ Drazerk: 7000$ OpZ: 5000$ chaos13: 0$ Mataza: 3000$ prplhz: 2000$ JeeJee: 2000$ TAA: 2000$ Cthsazsa: 3000$ Mig: 3000$ Feel free to bid on the picture, the analysis and the dud nuke during the rest of the day and night. ##Vote TheAwesomeAll | ||
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On July 07 2011 09:09 Coagulation wrote: GMarshal IF U DIE and flip GREEN Who would be good nuke targets? Everyone. | ||
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me! | ||
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Seriously, I did not read through the entire role description when I started. It feels kind of weird that it really, really doesn't matter if I'm living or dead, claimed or unclaimed. I guess I could be working to ensure as much nuking goes on as possible, if I hadn't claimed, but really, I'd have to work so hard pushing nukes while establishing innocence that it'd have been a really thin line to walk. The alternative is to just roleclaim and have a bit of fun with the game, as it really doesn't matter if I live or die, whenever people get bored of me... derp derp to the gallows! Anyway, good night | ||
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By the way, I'd take a look at the people who are pushing for my lynch, killing a third party that really doesn't matter if it lives or dies is basically pushing mafia objectives. No information, everyone agrees, no gain and no one has a clue what's going on. It's the same argument as killing a bad townie (as for all intents and purposes, I am one). But hey, well done mafia, this game is basically 100% shitstorm, I'll enjoy it from the sideline and hope you guys win it for me anyway! | ||
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May I recommend that you just nuke everything into armageddon tomorrow? | ||
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On July 07 2011 17:27 sandroba wrote: Yo Palmar, you owe me and analysis on prplhz before you die. I paid good money for it! As said in the contract, it will be delivered at daybreak. But I don't think I'll be alive then. Sorry, I'm at work right now so I can't do it. It'd actually be kinda fun cause I have probably more information on prplhz's meta than anyone else in this game. But not at work, sorry  | ||
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On July 07 2011 17:57 Mataza wrote: That is just a cop out to ensure your survival. Tell me, if it doesn´t matter whether you live or die, why try to blackmail town into letting you live? Do you know what I would claim if I was conspirator? I would tell people it doesn´t matter if I live or die, so they would just let me live. Now, if it ACTUALLY didn´t matter whether you live or die, I would roll over and die, as any lynch against non scum is an incentive to catch up with use of nukes. But since you are not doing this, I resume there are very negative effects taking place when you die. Doesn´t matter though, since your death is hammered already. Yah, I'm not blackmailing, I just said it, at work. Writing a 10 line post takes 30 seconds, writing an analysis takes 30 minutes It actually kind of matters, if I survive until late-game I get access to a nuke, need to eliminate a whole country first. Trying that is hardly worth the shitstorm that is this thread. Now, just so the town knows, there are going to be some people going "hah, I told you so, he'd have gotten nukes on day 4 or something". You really should be going after the people who were pushing a useless lynch on day 1. | ||
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I know I'm 3rd party, so you're not going to believe it, but I'd have argued exactly the same points as town. Just relax, not nuke unless it's almost guaranteed scum, and policy lynching people who break the rules. | ||
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I should probably just have supported that and enjoyed the show. But I'm sitting on the bench, can still win from there, lol | ||
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On July 07 2011 18:28 sandroba wrote: If it's voted for it's not random don't you agree? Also don't tell me you didn't play to your winconditions. If you were so much against my plan that means it would fuck your chances of winning. And if you tried to push "nuke who you think is scum" you know it would turn into a nuke fest. hmm I tried to oppose your plan to gain town cred, I actually thought your plan was better for my win condition than mine. | ||
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On July 07 2011 18:39 sandroba wrote: I bet you did, since oposing my plan was clearly a pro-town move that would get you tons of town cred. Sigh. Yah man, but since the town didn't trust me, it was pointless. I put way too much faith in people. | ||
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But people are really fucking afraid of anarchy nukes, so they saw me as anti-town, but they never realized that really, we were proposing the same plan, except you added the voting process. | ||
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On July 07 2011 18:38 syllogism wrote: Still better than policy lynching people who you think are townies I actually think it'd have benefitted town to go through with that. Compared to the complete shitfest that is this game now! | ||
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On July 07 2011 18:51 sandroba wrote: Nope. What you sugested did not limit nukes to one per day AND did not provided town twice the info as a normal day. Anyway it's kinda pointless for me to argue with you now =P. yah, I'll agree to disagree. It's basically arguing about whether a forced double lynch is beneficial for town or not. I don't think it is until you have legitimate targets for the town to lynch, which is generally on day 3 or later. It's actually an interesting question from game-design/balancing point of view. Can you in theory replace a vigilante by allowing double lynches? Is that beneficial for town? | ||
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On July 07 2011 19:07 syllogism wrote: They aren't like vigis because even if you happen to hit scum, he can nuke 2 townies in retaliation, there's a radiation cap and nukes can be shot down by both town and mafia and it's not immediately clear whether the one who shot the nuke is town or not Well yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. in a normal game, I'd always say vigi should shoot every night, and we should lynch every night. But in this specific case, town should not nuke day 1 and possibly day 2 because of additional restraints. | ||
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On July 07 2011 19:06 sandroba wrote: Well I can prove it is for you in private sometime. yah, I'm interested (I'm actually a game-balance/design fanatic) | ||
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On July 07 2011 20:09 Drazerk wrote: Palmar - You still owe me a picture regardless you fuckers hanged me! But maybe... maybe. | ||
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On July 07 2011 21:22 Misder wrote: Wow, I completely forgot about being in this game x.x' and now there are 50 pages to read lol.I'll catch up today. I can summarize them as derp. Town nuked the fuck out of each other and hanged the conspirator. | ||
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gg. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rQqeU.png) Don't mind me guys! | ||
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On July 13 2011 00:33 Curu wrote: And that Palmar won simply because Caller lied to us in the thread about no radiation confirmation. Sigh. u mad? | ||
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