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stefftastiq
Norway205 Posts
A scum play that make sense would be kav + unichan + dementrio - one who "controls" the play and the two other which kind of lays back to watch and contribute when being told. Havent really got much to back it up right now since it was just a thought passing through - but maybe someone else thought of it too :-p | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 11 2011 23:18 prplhz wrote: Kavdragon First, what the hell Kavdragon. I think that in the beginning you played very well and townie like, good arguments no hesitation no fluff or spam, but since neither sinani206 nor OriginalName, who were up for lynch on day1, were scum a scum was free to play as townie like as he could. Then you tried to get unichan lynched on day2 but more on that later. What you have been doing since night2 though has been quite bad. First you insist on vigi shooting that night or else we would not survive. Even after both stefftastiq, me and youngminii point out that vigi can shoot later, you insist that he has to shoot that night. In the end vigi shot night2 and that was extremely good for scum. If vigi had waited until night3 it would be 4v3, which would give him 50% chance to shoot a scum, instead of 57% chance .. it is pure math. But this was a freebie for a scum since it is pure math and your defense can easily be math-noob or WIFOM. And why do I think that your defense might be WIFOM? Because you have used WIFOM extensively for your defense so far. + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2011 04:48 Kavdragon wrote: Ah crap. Sorry, forgot to preview. If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point. I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town). Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that. Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum. The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses? You need to re-read the definision of WIFOM. If I say that scum don't do "A", and I didn't do "A" it's not wifom. It's a defence. WIFOM is when you say: Scum don't do "A", but since scum know that, they might have done "A". Wifom is when you argue that someone is scum because the opposite of what scum do in an attempt to look town. Scum would have had no need to make a last minute vote switch to draw attention to themself, thus it is actually wifom to argue that I am scum because of that vote. The second quote is about medics, and is very true. If there is no medic (or if you are the medic) then you make a huge effort in thread to get a specific person to be protected, and then protect someone else, because, as Jeejee says, the scum will just hit someone other than the one in the thread. That way you can double your protection. That tactic served me well in the last game I played medic. The third quote isn't even cloes to wifom. You seem to have it confused with "i think he wouldn't be able to" or "They wouldn't do that" statements. Observations about behavior =/= wifom. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM So palpable that you even feel the need to point it out yourself. WIFOM is no way to defend yourself, just explain your actions and get on with it. Only way anybody would have to resort to WIFOM is if they do not have any reasons for their actions (noob defense), or if they don't want to disclose their actions (scum motives). JeeJee's original accusations were "gimmicky" and, as you point out yourself, actually weak. Then why do you use up all the time you have to defend yourself against terrible accusations instead quickly explaining your actions and getting to scumhunting? Are you more occupied with surviving that with nailing scum, even at lylo? Because defending myself takes about 10 min, and writing a decent analysis takes over an hour. At this point I fully expect the mafia to try with everything they can to lynch me, because it will only take one townie to vote me for mafia to win. This is what I expected as soon as I saw the Day post, and I wasn't in it. This brings me to my next point; your vote against me. Even though you have cooked up great analysis in the past you decide to bandwagon for this one. No reasons, just following Palmar's accusations, which does not have any arguments either. What the hell? How do you expect me to defend myself against nothing? Or maybe it would be better if I didn't defend myself? I really thought that you were townie from day1 but this is just crazy weird behavior from you who seemed to have played consistently well. Since this is lylo I think that it should be possible for everybody to make accusations against three guys. I'm gonna say that this JeeJee v Kavdragon thing looks a bit orchestrated, bad arguments for and even worse counter arguments, the whole thing ending up with a picture of a god damn rabbit getting pulled out of a hat. The whole thing looks like a farce to me, orchestrated so that scum has something to talk about today instead of being afraid to say something because this is getting dangerous. I think that the three scum are Kavdragon, JeeJee, and the last one is definitely not stefftastiq and I doubt that it is unichan either even though I was on his back after day2. This leaves Palmar and dementrio. Also, people get the hell posting and you absolutely have to be online tonight at deadline. Scum could do a last minute vote switch, it only takes one of us with a bad vote. I am going to need the help of three of you stefftastiq, unichan, Palmar, and dementrio because I seriously doubt that JeeJee is gonna keep his vote on Kavdragon if the guy is up for lynch when we're approaching deadline. ##Vote Kavdragon Sorry dude but you are playing terrible and I doubt that Ace coached you to use WIFOM as defense when you are townie. And I want to stress that this is not a final vote, I will be here until deadline and I want to see some proper defense Kavdragon. Now, get posting people, get posting right the hell now, we may have a lot of work to do. I'm not getting coached by Ace, btw. Your basic argument is "Played really pro-town the first two days" "Played scummy this last night" "Defends with wifom". The first part is true, the second is false, but I don't fault you for thinking it, the third is false. (Again, read the mafia-scum wiki for an explanation of wifom.) I can explain all my actions now. But in a new post. One sec. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
You can do better than that. I want to see some analysis 'cause I bet that everybody is confused right now and you're suspicious too. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
I am a veteran First day I was legitimately away, and couldn't do much. I came in and saw someone who I had suspected early on, claiming vet. The reason that vet is a great claim for mafia was one point against Sinani, but the fact that i was a vet made me extremely suspicious. So I put my vote on Sinani. Even though I couldn't be active during the day in order to make me a target, I posted my analysis of OriginalName during the night. There are people who argue against posting during the night, because it helps scum pick tier targets. This is true, and I tried to utilize it by posting as much as I could during the night. Even Ver has said that it's a bad idea to post analyses during the night unless you are sure that you are going to die, because it will make the scum focus on you. Unfortunately they went with Mataza instead. Second day I came up with a very good case for OriginalName, and waited to see what happened. It was bandwagoned heavily, and that made me doubt my original Analysis a lot, but I was still suspicious until I thought about what JeeJee was doing. My line of reasoning was this: "Jeejee is defending ON harder than he should. This must mean that JeeJee has more knowledge than I do about ON." The only two options were that JeeJee was a detective (and had checked ON), or he was mafia. Jeejee's posts looked pretty good to me (keep in mind that I thought that JeeJee was a new player at that point), then I looked at his posts during the night. He asked TONS of questions about cops, and targets. Classic new DT slip. I had found our DT. Remember when I posted "I just realized two things: This is a bandwagon, and this is not a ON bus" Well, that was prompted by my third, unmentioned realization that JeeJee was a DT, and since he was defending ON like that, he must have checked him. SO I started frantically trying to undo the bandwagon that I had started. Makes sense, right? Look at that night. I know that there are two vets, and I'm almost certain that JeeJee is a DT. There's no way that we would also have a medic, or a vig. So I call for medics o protect JeeJee (Again, because the scum wouldn't take a chance that there is a medic, this was the best protection that I could give knowing that there was no medic.) Then I called for a vig to hit Dementrio. This was another form of pressure that I've used before as town to great effect. Call for a vig hit on someone. Dementrio looked like town, but he wasn't posting at ALL, so I asked for a vig to hit him so that he would post more, and I could get a better read on him. Again, I was almost certain that there wasn't a vig because I was almost certain that there was a DT. Now, according to you, prplhz, I played a town first two days, but this past night was scummy, right? Now I've explained my play for this past night (and the rest of the game) Care to take your votes off of me? Also, I thought I posted this before, but everyone needs to realize that if any townie votes for another townie, we will lose. If any townie doesn't vote for the same scum as the rest of the townies, we lose. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 12 2011 03:09 prplhz wrote: @Palmar You can do better than that. I want to see some analysis 'cause I bet that everybody is confused right now and you're suspicious too. He may be scum, but he's right. You absolutely cannot sheep in this situation. There are three scum who will try to mislead you, and if you sheep behind this we will lose. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Steff: Analyse. It doesn't matter if you aren't good, the only way that you will get better is by trying. Read Ver's guide to Mafia XXX if you don't know where to start. Palmar: Don't sheep. Figure out who has the better arguments, and go back and read the beginning carefully now that you know who is who from the flips. Dementrio: Get in here and post more. I still think that you are town, but you really need to be more active. What are your thoughts on the lynch, who is scummy, and why? | ||
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stefftastiq
Norway205 Posts
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stefftastiq
Norway205 Posts
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 12 2011 04:44 stefftastiq wrote: so you suspect there were 2 veterans 1 vigi (and even more blues) on the town side vs 3 scum? No, I thought that there would be three blues. I KNOW that there are two vets, and I thought that the third was Jeejee (DT), but now that I know there is a vig(you), I'm certain that there are no more blue roles. Meaning that I no longer belive JeeJee to be the DT. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 12 2011 01:57 stefftastiq wrote: I think my vote is going to Kavdragon as well for the moment - even tho he has seemed to play townish, it might have been a bit too townish? - someone wrote in SNMMII that mafia is very much about what you make people believe.. Been going through the thread and I agree with the previous post - and it can seem that he has 'controlled' the game by being town - since scum dont really have to rely on lynching townies as long as we do that ourself - then they just sit back and kill the most obvious townie at night or a random - which I guess why he wanted the vigi to claim. as for now I see both JeeJee and Prplz go on Kav while Prplz also says JeeJee is scum. Ill put my vote on Kav for now - and I think i need a really good argument to change it, also a lot of the people who were suspicious about Kav in past now are dead - this might make things right ##Vote Kavdragon I've been lynched for that reason my past two games. I was town both times. The argument that "he is too townie" is retarded. I've proved it with my dead body twice, and I don't want to have to prove it again. The fact that I have, as you say "controlled" the town is only because the real town was willing to sheep behind my arguments, and since I was wrong, scum sheeped behind them too. Everyone has to contribute in this game. You cannot have one player doing all the work, or something like this happens: The leader gets stuff wrong, and then scum lynch him. Yes, mafia is about manipulating opinion, but that's true for town just as much as it is for scum. Just because I'm better at it than some doesn't mean that I'm scum. Look at the intentions behind my posts. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
2 veterans in a 12 player game, what next? brb, cue the If mafia & getting lynched, I'm 100% claiming vet. Not confirmable and have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game: "because the mafia know I am a vet" quote. I wonder who said that. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
ALSO DROPBEAR/GMARSHAL GET ON IRC | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
 anyway I'm here. When rereading, my eye caught kav's vet claim. I didn't read the rest of the post and then went back to read from the beginning of today, and caught myself thinking, wow what kav is saying actually makes sense if he is vet. All the stuff about being pretty sure there is no medic, no vig, and remembering how he was pushing for sinani and telling people to use night powers at random. I know this is what he explains in his post aswell, but the point I'm making is that I belive if kav is false claiming than he planned to do so from day 1. I am pretty confident this time that he's not fooling me into believing him just with his latest posts. Now I honestly don't know, but my guess that being randed mafia and coming into the game with the intention of acting like a vet from the start doesn't make too much sense and is unnecessarily risky. In any way occam's razor tells me that kav is more likely to be a vet than mafia. Unichan vs Palmar In the beginning I said how I thought unichan's early posts were suspicious, because as a first time player and scum, i adopted the approach he had. This approach was: [/quote]I hate this game. I have no clue how to play fucking town.[/quote] [/quote]I don't know I have absolutely nothing to base my vote on because I don't know how to play fucking town. I'm completely useless at this analysis thing.[/quote] (The quotes are from Palmar). I think this attitude is an easy way to avoid doing a citizen's job, which is to get and post reads. I don't have more clues than you have Palmar, so I'll use things like these to call you scum. I'm going to read the thread from day1 once again now, because I just realized jeejee flew completely under my radar till today. his last posts give me the same vibes youngmiini's did so I'm inclined to think town but I'll come back to that later. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
I still think unichan and prplhz are the other two mafia. I would ask for a vig shot on unichan tonight. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
On June 12 2011 06:23 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: When does this day end? ALSO DROPBEAR/GMARSHAL GET ON IRC ends 02:00 GMT that's 2h40 min from now. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
Oh lord 2 veterans in a 12 player game, what next? brb, cue the If mafia & getting lynched, I'm 100% claiming vet. Not confirmable and have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game: "because the mafia know I am a vet" quote. I wonder who said that. do you think kav would plan ahead and, as scum, intentionally post stuff that looks scummy every day so that he could claim vet and look coherent, with another vet already flipped? Claim is so ridiculous it's almost believable, but I'm sticking with sheeping after Stefftastiq. Palmar I think you're the scummiest in here now. I think the scum is palmar, unichan and prp. I'ts late night here and I'm starting to find it hard to think straight; I would vote for prplhz now but I'm afraid to. If I fall asleep and miss last minute developments, is it better for me to have voted or not? Does it even make a difference? Where is unichan? there's no possibility he is actually the vig and steff is trolling us hard I hope. Right? | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
First I want to address the main point of Kavdragon's argument; the vet claim. If he is veteran then he is 100% townie, if he is not veteran then this is a last ditch defense as he so cleverly pointed out himself earlier in the game. Now is he a vet? First point against him being vet is that that would make 6 vanilla, 2 veteran, and 1 vigi against 3 vanilla scum (since nobody claimed roleblock yet I'm gonna assume that there are no roleblockers, if you forgot to claim roleblock then maybe now is the time). This is insanely imbalanced compared to SNMMII where we were 9 vanilla townies v 2 vanilla townies and a roleblocker. And town almost won that game if they'd just stayed active until the end. It goes without saying that 2 veterans AND a vigi would make town way overpowered. Second point against him; he claims that he has played like a vet all game through. Either he has been faking this all along or he has just now made this up. Faking it all along seems crazy since there was a vet day1 and that should make vet claims less believable later. I think he just now made this up and his behavior so far only vaguely supports the idea that he has been vet all game. He tried to help town, but he never got a scum lynched and so far everybody has tried to help town. More importantly he also claims to have tried to attract hits but he didn't, scum is never gonna hit a guy who might be protected by medic and the way he's been acting I would have protected him the first two nights if I were a medic. We saw it in SNMMII where the guys hit were all people who laid low without lurking, and we've seen it so far in this game too. The guy never tried to attract hits. This vet claim is something he just made up now, he's been acting scum acting vanilla in a self destructing town all game long. Like "I called for a vig hit on dementrio because I knew he was town and I wanted him to talk and I knew there were no vigs". Well scum acting vanilla townie could have done that too, "I called for vig hit on dementrio because he was lurking and we would not get a clear read on him for day3 lynch" with the secret agenda that dementrio might just be town (just look at his posts and Hesmyrr's). I also want to point out that he's only been defending himself so far, I think this is a scumtell. He never provided any reason for the sudden vote on me. I think that he jumped on me 'cause the first guy who got a bandwagon going on him on the first two nights was lynched. But then when everything was turned around he knew that he was gonna get in trouble very soon and this is a last ditch effort to avoid getting lynched. My vote stands because of reasons previously stated though I would not mind reiterating them by request. @Palmar You don't care about stuff that happens, you just sheep stefftastiq? Either you are scum or you should get a replacement right now 'cause you are ruining this game for town, and I don't care if you are trying to make a point of sheeping or anything, you should really try to lead by example. @dementrio The guy never played veteran, most of what he explains makes perfect sense in a scum acting vanilla townie context. The more outrageous the lie the more likely it is that people will believe it and playing on townie fear of repeating a day1 mistake makes it all the more powerful. | ||
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stefftastiq
Norway205 Posts
As for the balance issues I also feel it would be overpowered with two vets and a vigi for the townside vs nothing as far as we know. But the only game I can compare with is minimafia2 - where there were none! It also seems like its mostly Kav people got opinions on - since we actually need atleast four votes to lynch its crucial that scums not in those four landed on a scum... (obvious) - Hopefully everybody is here. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
##vote: prplhz prp, My vote stands because of reasons previously stated though I would not mind reiterating them by request. please do. I am not discarding your argument just yet, in fact I won my only other game by slipping a huge scumtell that somehow got misinterpreted by the first to respond and I was able to jump on the opportunity and turn it into a perfect defense. I can only imagine kavdragon would be able to do that better. But tbh, I still think the simplest solution is that kav is actually a vet. I'll wait to see how he responds to you, and also see where unichan stands in all this. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
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