Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
Rules:
Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. 2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. 3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 5. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 6. Posting any PM you receive from a host. 7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. 8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting:
Mod Font: This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font: This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity: You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote: Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam: Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here.
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything
Inappropriate posts: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Play to win.
You have been warned.
Voting rules:
1. Voting is done in this thread. Please keep votes there, and only vote there. Do not PM me your vote. 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance. 3. No conditional voting. 4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. 5. In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses). 6. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Signups:
This game is open to anyone with preference for those who are ineligible to play in Mafia XL. Signups will remain open until all 12 spots have been filled.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Qatol or post in the Ban List.
Clues: There are no clues.
PMs PMs are NOT allowed in this game.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a 24 hour night/48 hour day cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is 02:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Credits: Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer. Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
An additional rule on sign ups, you may be playing in a maximum of one other mafia game at the same time.
This is a semi-open setup. All roles will be disclosed, but role counts will remain hidden. Read this section carefully, it may be subject to change.
The roles below may not all appear in the game, but there will be no roles that aren't on this list.
Townie You are a townie! You may not have a special role, but you are the base of the town and have the power to bring wrongdoers to justice. Your job is to use teamwork and analysis to hunt down and lynch the mafia.
Miller You're an innocent townie, but you have a tendency to act a little creepy and always seem to show up at the wrong place at the wrong time. Any detective checks on you will return Mafia Goon.
Detective You are a detective! Your job is to use your sleuthing skills to determine the true nature of players friend and foe. Every night, you may check a player to find their alignment and role.
Medic You are a medic! You can use your medical expertise to protect your fellow players. Every night, you may select a player to protect from a night hit. You may not protect yourself. If you save a player from a hit, you will both be notified of your success (you will be kept anonymous). Each medic protection is the equivalent of one hit – if a player takes two hits while being protected by one medic, they will die. If you protect a veteran, your ability takes precedence over theirs.
Vigilante You are a vigilante! You are willing to take the law into your own hands. Once per game starting after night 1, you may PM me a player to be killed. If your kill overlaps with a mafia hit, your ability will not be used (unless the player has some form of protection). If your kill overlaps with another vigilante, the first hit sent in will take precedence (again, unless the targeted player has protection).
Veteran You are a veteran! Your military experience gives you a second life. It takes two successful hits to take you down. You will be informed if you lose one of your lives.
Mafia Goon You are scum! Your goal in this game is to deceive and destroy the town. You win when you outnumber or equal the town-aligned players. Mafia have a fixed KP of 1!
Mafia Roleblocker You are a mafia roleblocker! Every night, you may choose a player whose active night action you will prevent. Players will be informed that they were roleblocked regardless of whether or not an ability was actually prevented. Passive abilities, such as the veteran's extra life, are affected. Blocked vigilantes, if they chose to shoot on the night they were blocked, will retain the ability to shoot another night
Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will (will not) go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Qatol or post in the Ban List.
If you are modkilled, your punishment will (will not) go beyond being eliminated from this game.
On June 01 2011 23:20 Munk-E wrote: Am I allowed in this one if i signed up fo mafia XL?
As long as thats the only one you are signed up for, and if you belive you can keep your activity up its fine by me. You should probably ask mepak too though
Hi I just died in PTP because apparently I played terrible
I just hope this game will move a bit slower.
This game has 12 players instead of 30 and is a more standard setup. I'd be surprised if it breaks 50 pages, just because there's less to discuss and argue about and less people to discuss and argue with.
Fack LOL I'm going to be at a math competition for Friday + Saturday (I get back at like 11 PM EST) so I won't be able to post very much then, but after that definitely >_<. I hope that's okay~
On June 03 2011 13:05 unichan wrote: Fack LOL I'm going to be at a math competition for Friday + Saturday (I get back at like 11 PM EST) so I won't be able to post very much then, but after that definitely >_<. I hope that's okay~
As long as you post above the modkill threshold you should be ok. And as long as you keep your activity levels up after that. As SNMMII should have taught people, only reading the thread and voting two hours before the deadline leads to a very dead town, and a very boring game.
It is a time of great uncertainty and social unrest. The gangs have been moving in to consolidate their power in cities all over the land. Only in the poorest districts, where there is no wealth or power for the gangs to usurp for their own, can people live in peace.
That was until today.
GMarshal the Mafia Shaman surveyed the slum village on the outskirts of the city. It was a disgusting place, far more pungent than even the least salubrious opium dens and brothels he had frequented in the past. The simple villagers did not bathe for the only water source other than their crude well was the open sewers, which reeked of every variety of excrement. Dirty pigs happily wallowed in the mud that formed the town square and scrawny chickens bickered over trash. Mangy dogs lay wherever they could find shade, the blistering sun preventing them from frolicking with the ragged children. The stalls and shops were smeared with tar but sturdy. The wares were well-built and functional but nothing here was of quality to rival the superlative products of the opulent, boutique establishments in the city centre where the Mafia normally operated.
At first glance it would have appeared that there was nothing important here at all, but the all-powerful Shaman knew otherwise. “This is the place.”
The villagers looked up from their work to stare at the handful of strangers strutting into their quiet village. Travellers were rare in these parts and tended to attract attention. GMarshal sneered at the gathering crowd. His chief lieutenant CubEdln addressed them. “Hand over everything you own and leave this place. It belongs to us now. Do this and we might let you live.”
The villagers cried out in indignation. “Who the hell do you think you are? We live here. Get lost.” “SILENCE!” yelled GMarshal. You cretins obviously do not recognise us. We are the Mafia and WE DO NOT PLAY GAMES!” He whistled and hundred men in suits armed with axes came rushing into the square. Violently they clubbed at those nearby with their axe handles, beating them into submission until the villagers formed a frightened knot in the centre of the square. The Mafia formed up around them so they could not escape. “You WILL do as we say, or you will die!” CubEdln looked around and spied DropBear, the simpleton, staring at the sky with an open mouth and an alarmingly vacant look in his eyes, either unaware or unworried about the situation. He grinned viciously and went over to him. He roughly grabbed the young man and dragged him to the centre of the square. “Surrender your possessions or die. This fool will be the first to realise we are serious.” The lieutenant raised his axe.
“Enough!” The old shepherd, who rarely spoke, stood up. Everyone turned to stare at him in astonishment. He was an old man, his face wrinkled and weather-beaten. He bore a long white staff, with intricate, incomprehensible patterns carved on its surface. His long white hair was tied together at the waist with a simple thread of wool. He was short and lean and surely more than four-score years of age, but there was glint of steel in his eye and he moved with great purpose through the crowd to the front. “These people are innocents. You demand excise but they have nothing to offer you. Your cruelty will not bring forth riches. You must leave, or you will regret it. There is nothing for you here. Begone.” Foolishness defiantly stared down the aggressors.
“HAHA! Who are you to issue ultimatums old man? You are older than the dirt that at our feet, more feeble than a newborn baby and more foolish than a gambler betting his house on a lame horse. Come here so I can teach you a lesson!” CubEdln shoved DropBear’s face into the dirt and advanced on the old man. Foolishness grinned. “So be it.” With a rapid swing the shepherd raised his staff and struck CubEdln a massive blow to the head. The lieutenant staggered and roared with rage as he felt his lifeblood trickle down his brow. A hissing noise came as Foolishness pulled an ancient looking blade from the solid butt of the staff. With one smooth stroke, CubEdln’s head was sent spinning into the air. It landed with his face staring back at the Mafia, screaming silently in horror at his comrades.
GMarshal quickly began muttering in a foreign, gutteral tongue. With a wave of his axe and a sharp exclamation, the headless corpse of CubEdln slithered to its feet. It picked up its severed head and placed it back on its shoulders, the face leering grotesquely. A chill covered the ground nearby. “I’m back,” it proclaimed. Foolishness was momentarily stunned. “What foul sorcery is this? This man is dead!” The shepherd tried to cut him down again but to no avail, GMarshal reanimated him immediately. It was clear that for CubEdln to stop coming back to life the shaman had to be eliminated.
Foolishness looked to the sky. The birds were circling above him, as they often did while he was in the fields. He had spent much time with the birds, fed them and listened to their song. This time however they were not chattering or warbling, they were squawking angrily. The shepherd smiled and raised his blade, then thrust it violently in the direction of the shaman. The birds formed up and dove directly at GMarshal, pecking, scratching. He cried out as his they rent his face with their talons and broke his concentration for one final, fatal moment. The time was now. Gripping the blade with both hands Foolishness thrust with all his might into the torso of his enemy. The piercing scream that burst forth from him shattered windows around the village. It was a terrible sound, one of pure hatred and anger. As the shaman was dying, the spell animating CubEdln’s corpse was broken and it crumbled to the floor. The bloodied head landed, once again fixing the mob with a hideous stare. The lieutenant would not be getting up again this time. The remaining Mafia members looked at each other, wild-eyed in fear and consternation. The wily old man had torn down the best of them. How could they, mere mortals, defeat this unlikely blademaster?
Meanwhile DropBear had been watching wild-eyed and with the fall of the Mafia shaman, he finally knew what he had to do. It was obvious the nice men in suits with the axes belted at their sides were good people. He ran up and stabbed Foolishness in the back, screeching insanely. The shepherd groaned sharply with pain and then disappointment; he had fought off the most dangerous threat the village had ever faced only to be felled by one of those he had risked everything to protect. The Mafia smelled blood and moved in, but they could not break the old shepherd. His blade dancing, they fell in waves before him, their savage war cries punctuated by screams as crimson blood and severed limbs flew in all directions. Seeing him in danger, the villagers finally sprang into action, picking up whatever implements they found close at hand and joined the fray. As more and more of them came to battle they rapidly began to outnumber the invaders. The air was filled with the clash of steel on steel, wood and stone. Finally there came a great cry and the remaining Mafia turned and fled. A great cheer rose up amongst the villagers, only to be abruptly silenced as the old shepherd tottered and fell to the ground. The earth and heavens shuddered with his fall.
The red sun set. The infirmary was bursting with the injured, graves were dug on both sides. Children cried over lost parents, dogs howled, the birds were silent and even the pigs were not their usual happy grunting selves. Foolishness, the town hero, had sustained terrible wounds from the fight and could not hold on. He had taken many enemies with him and saved many lives that day. The sobs echoed through the gathering darkness as he spoke his last words. “Do not give up. Even the smallest villager can make a difference. Stay active and stand together. Fight for what you know is right and you cannot fail.” The old shepherd closed his eyes for the final time. For now, his sheep would have to guide themselves.
At dusk the remaining Mafia gathered to lick their wounds and attempt to restore their damaged pride. The embarrassing capitulation that day had only hardened their resolve. Their shaman must have led them to this place for a reason. Hidden power lay in this village and they would not cease until it was overcome or enslaved. No pathetic town could stand in their way! If brute strength failed, they would use subterfuge. The town would fear them again.
The villagers knew that the Mafia would return in the morning. To spit in the faces of the gangs invited retribution. The tales they had heard of those who had defied the Mafia were chilling, whispered by gossiping housewives to naughty children to get them to sleep at night. Yet here the Mafia were, on the doorstep. The most courageous among them was gone. They were afraid. But they had to stand firm. As rude and simple as it was, they had built their lives in this place, their families, their possessions, their memories. They would give not give them up without a fight.
GMarshal the Mafia Shaman is dead. CubEdln the Animated Skeleton is dead. Foolishness the Silent Guardian is dead. DropBear the Verbose Village Idiot is dead.
Who amongst the village will stand against the tide? Is the chosen one hiding in your midst, unbeknown even to themselves?
Who amongst the Mafia will rain horrors upon these pathetic wretches who dare oppose you? Is the chance at revenge and the promise of glory, riches and women enough to spur you to domination?
It is now day 1! You have 48 hours to vote for who is to be lynched! Thank DropBear for the epic day post
Baller daypost. So a lot of fresh faces here today and a couple familiar ones too. I am going to bed right now. Would be nice if everybody could say hi so we don't have to wait until 1 hour before deadline before seeing you guys.
Also this is gonna be a first but ..
Are you going to post a list of different setups like you did for SNMMII or are we left in the dark about that?
Baller daypost. So a lot of fresh faces here today and a couple familiar ones too. I am going to bed right now. Would be nice if everybody could say hi so we don't have to wait until 1 hour before deadline before seeing you guys.
Also this is gonna be a first but ..
Are you going to post a list of different setups like you did for SNMMII or are we left in the dark about that?
More roles on list, many many more variations. I'm going to guess no. This is a more complex setup.
What do you guys think should be a good policy for lurkers? Pressure day 1, or make a note for later while we scumhunt?
I've found that day 1 scumhunting is often very hit and miss, and finding a scummy player day 1 is rare. The earlier we weed out the inactive players, the better off we'll be, I think. I've seen too many games that start off great for town but wimper and die once the active townies are all dead, and all we've got left is lurkers and scum. I'd like to avoid this, If possible.
Baller daypost. So a lot of fresh faces here today and a couple familiar ones too. I am going to bed right now. Would be nice if everybody could say hi so we don't have to wait until 1 hour before deadline before seeing you guys.
Also this is gonna be a first but ..
Are you going to post a list of different setups like you did for SNMMII or are we left in the dark about that?
More roles on list, many many more variations. I'm going to guess no. This is a more complex setup.
What do you guys think should be a good policy for lurkers? Pressure day 1, or make a note for later while we scumhunt?
I've found that day 1 scumhunting is often very hit and miss, and finding an actual mafia member day 1 is rare. The earlier we weed out the inactive players, the better off we'll be, I think. I've seen too many games that start off great for town but wimper and die once the active townies are all dead, and all we've got left is lurkers and scum. I'd like to avoid this, If possible.
Let everyone chase their own lurker policies; by focusing on single aspect of players there might be risk of letting another sort of scummy players skirt by unnoticed. Boundary between 'lurking' and 'scummy' are really vague anyway. If a guy only tries to meet the minimal posting standard throughout the game, he'll have really difficult time getting hit off their back.
Yeah but a day one lynch based on slightly scummy posting is too risky. Even though we have a chance to kill Mafia (8.3%), we know at least 95% that inactive players will be detrimental to town.
Where did you pull 8.3% from? 3/12=25%, and I hope we aren't fail at scum hunting so much that our lynch is not going to be no more than random lynch. The fallacy of focusing on inactive over suspect d1 is that... well, d2 is the new d1 (besides the death & DT check). At least talking now will give us more material to work with next day.
Also we are talking about lurking, which is in itself scummy behaviour. We'll just treat them as suspects instead of putting them into new prominent sub-category. Truly inactive will take care of themselves via mod-killed & replacement. Lurkers, well, like I said if they make as least post as they can during the period of d1~d2 that is excellent reason for lynch. I mean the scumminess of lurker will increase proportionally over time.
What I want to say is if at the end of day 1 there are one non-mod-kill eligible lurker and one scummy player, we'd get more discussion out of talking about who to lynch rather than gogo irradiate.
He's saying that we'd be better off lynching a scummy player and then looking at who defended/pushed for his lynch depending on his flip than we'd be if we just offed a lurker.
At this point, I'm tending to agree. I'm currently planning on putting some pressure on the lurkers early on, then focusing on who's actually scummy when there's more to analyze.
We'll decide what to do depending on the situation. It's generally accepted that talking about our lynch options is better than automatically resorting to policy lynch. If it's 'gogo irradiate' part you were confused about, IRRADIATE -> dead lurker X.X
Yes I completely agree, but if we don't have any outstandingly scummy players there is no point in choosing the scummiest player (who might not be very scummy at all) over a player with one post and an unexplained vote.
On June 04 2011 12:27 Varpulis wrote: He's saying that we'd be better off lynching a scummy player and then looking at who defended/pushed for his lynch depending on his flip than we'd be if we just offed a lurker.
At this point, I'm tending to agree. I'm currently planning on putting some pressure on the lurkers early on, then focusing on who's actually scummy when there's more to analyze.
At the same time somebody who defends him or pushes said person could be just a bad townie, so once again we come to the conclusion that most D1 lynches are dumb luck.
Yeah, but we gain valuable information by looking at who defended who and other connections between players. We're not going to insta lynch whoever pushed for a lynch on a townie, but I'd certainly look into his posting, as would i look into the posting of somebody who hardcore defended scum.
We don't get any of that information if we lynch a lurker with only 2 posts in the thread.
I agree with lynching lurkers. It will help us in many ways beyond simply eliminating a useless player, and we will gain much information by it. That being said, I'm going to be really busy this weekend and don't expect to really get into this till Monday. I'll not be lurking, but I won't be my usual super active day 1.
I'll get you lynched for that yet! You just made yourself a nemesis. Even if I can only be slightly annoying, I'll still do what I can to get you lynched. Even if I have to settle for lynching your effigy.
If you're a Veteran you should claim now. The mafia doesn't have anything to frame or set up our cop, so all we have to do is to check you on night1 and we have a confirmed veteran townie, along with a lot of useful information. The mafia would have to use two nights if they wanted to get rid of him, and it doesn't even provide a target for the roleblocker to stop.
If we only have one claim for a veteran we don't even need to waste a cop night action on the guy. If he looks scummy we can always just lynch him later on. Main thing is that we get a ton of information from a veteran claim.
Lynching Kavdragon day1 seems to be very popular....
I don´t really know where to begin. The last SNMM was lost partially because we lynched active over inactive people(Mafia were active too, so you could say we just had 3 players less) and partially because of my own mistakes. As for that:
I will not get up in any mad day1 witch hunt. Day1 lynch is mostly a crap shoot and if I don´t feel any candidate is scummy, don´t hate me for it.
Do not softclaim your roles. If you drop hints and other things, mafia will read them too. Also I will call you out on this stuff, because I could have won another game if I had done it. At that point I don´t care if your Doctor or Mahatma Ghandi.
Also do not claim openly(obviously). If there would be PMs allowed, there would be a scenario were its useful. But its not, and there is not. If you get a guilty report as cop, go ahead and make a normal case like everyone else. If you ever die we will look back at your actions and try to deduce your reports.
With that said, I am advocating something I advocated in SNMM2: Let´s play like we are all delicious Vanilla.
Since Palmar's plan is the only real thing that has happened in this game so far I'll try to talk about that. This setup is quite complex since it has a bunch of roles but I assume that it is somewhat balanced, which means that people aren't ALL blues (probably one or two blues as there were in SNMMII) and there are probably no duplicate roles.
Veteran claims: He's not gonna get night killed so he will not soak any hits. If town has a cop and he confirms veteran on day2 then he will get instantly targetted by scum. This will leave town with one confirmed veteran at day3 but he will be avoided by scum, one dead cop, another nightkill and two people lynched. I don't know if this is a great idea.
If town does not have a cop, then no cop will confirm on day2. This will leave us with a dude who is probably town anyway as I doubt scum will run the risk of claiming and attracting so much attention. If some other dude claims anyway, then he'd get targetted by scum so I don't see why anybody would fake-claim cop to hail-mary-confirm a veteran who is already semi-confirmed as town alignment just by his claim.
If there is a medic, he could claim veteran too. If there is a cop he could confirm veteran on day2 and leave the medic and cop knowing each other's alignment. This would be great for town as it would most likely guarantee cop/medic duo survival until late game. If there isn't a cop, some dude could hail-mary-confirm veteran on day2 and if the medic falls for that thinking it's a cop, that would not be too great, but it wouldn't be that beneficial for the fake-cop either so I don't see why anybody would do this no matter what alignment. Also, the medic might not trust the dude who claimed veteran and himself claim townie and push a lynch for the cop fake-confirming veteran which might lead us to lynch a cop. But then, this would be a risky plan by the medic and blues are supposed to be more careful I think.
Also if there is a mafia roleblocker then he could be used to break up a potential vet/cop or med/cop pair. If some dude confirms day2 then roleblocker could just block the dude who confirms as there is no reason for people to fake-confirm really, and then they could target other townies with night kill.
All in all I don't know if this is a great plan. I don't know why Palmar would even propose it, shouldn't blues be able to figure out stuff like this by themselves? Now in the two games I've been in (and Palmar has been in those two so he knows) we've had people propose mediocre plans and it never ended well for them, Mataza in SNMMII and sandroba in PTP. I don't know what to think about that but Palmar sure is starting this game out by trying to attract a lot of attention.
I'm awake! - imba Daypost! Day1 always seem to be a bit random - Cant say I have any excellent ideas of finding the scum - but I noted down what I thought while reading up :D
@ace @kevdragon @palmar
some internal joke about caprio I didnt get? why the lynch ?
@Mataza
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
@sinani I see you name me in your not posted anything yet thread - I posted just before the game started that I was going to sleep.
altho, is a list like this commonly made to lead attention away from 'yourself' ? since ofcourse you never would be named in the list
On June 04 2011 13:58 sinani206 wrote: Varpulis, why did you change your mind so quickly after Hesmyrr posted?
I didn't, really. I'd like to eliminate lurkers before we get into the late game so that town doesn't die a painful death like in SNMM II. I was asking you guys the best way you thought to go about that. Hesmyrr's argument made the most sense to me.
If we can't get a reasonable read on scum, lynching a lurker is probably the way to go. I'm just being optimistic, i guess, that we'll have a scum read by the end of day 1, and some discussion about it that we could go back and analyze later.
On June 04 2011 18:23 Palmar wrote: Here we go.
If you're a Veteran you should claim now. The mafia doesn't have anything to frame or set up our cop, so all we have to do is to check you on night1 and we have a confirmed veteran townie, along with a lot of useful information. The mafia would have to use two nights if they wanted to get rid of him, and it doesn't even provide a target for the roleblocker to stop.
If we only have one claim for a veteran we don't even need to waste a cop night action on the guy. If he looks scummy we can always just lynch him later on. Main thing is that we get a ton of information from a veteran claim.
no. don't claim veteran. We'd like the veterans to absorb mafia night kills. A claimed veteran doesn't really do that. He won't be confirmed anyways unless the cop claims, and we'd eventually wind up with a dead cop.
how exactly does vet claiming give us tons of information?
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
Yes, it´s quite sensible really. With my normal start I was widely perceived as random and scummy, which is not good for my play whatsoever. I could of course say it´s only good for my town play, but that would be deceiving you. As Scum, lynching me is obviously what I don´t want. As Town, lynching me would be a mislynch and that´s also bad for town.
Also Prplhz get a grip on yourself. Since this setup has no PMs, claims are just a bad play. I only advocated claims in SNM2 because we could deduce the exact setup. Here, we have to do it by plain old scumhunting.
For example tomorrow we know the kill of night 1. Now for example if I would drop dead, it would make Palmar a suspect. Then again you can go by the fact that Palmar wouldn´t be that straightforward and look for someone who furthered an argument between us 2 without getting himself involved. Just like Giygas badly tried to play me and Viscera against each other in SNM2.
Vanilla vs Vanilla as working assumption, all in favor?
@prplhz, your post was long and useless. It was a bunch of hypothetical situations and ramblings, ending with "this is not so great a plan."
Don't make long posts that don't need to be so long. It just makes it more difficult to figure out what you're saying, and makes it seem like you're just posing fluff.
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
Yes, it´s quite sensible really. With my normal start I was widely perceived as random and scummy, which is not good for my play whatsoever. I could of course say it´s only good for my town play, but that would be deceiving you. As Scum, lynching me is obviously what I don´t want. As Town, lynching me would be a mislynch and that´s also bad for town.
Also Prplhz get a grip on yourself. Since this setup has no PMs, claims are just a bad play. I only advocated claims in SNM2 because we could deduce the exact setup. Here, we have to do it by plain old scumhunting.
For example tomorrow we know the kill of night 1. Now for example if I would drop dead, it would make Palmar a suspect. Then again you can go by the fact that Palmar wouldn´t be that straightforward and look for someone who furthered an argument between us 2 without getting himself involved. Just like Giygas badly tried to play me and Viscera against each other in SNM2.
Vanilla vs Vanilla as working assumption, all in favor?
So your trying to meta based off one game AND WIFOMing what will happen in 48 hours. What exactly are you trying to contribute here. Your getting defensive really fast, its the first 12 hours chill out and let things play out.
Regarding the plan, just in case some people didn't know (Regarding Roleblocker):
Passive abilities, such as the veteran's extra life, are affected.
so mafia don't even have to two-shot to kill the guy.
Well, time to stir up some shit (if you guys never saw my formatting all indented names are hotlinked to post in question).
Mataza [Page 4] Offering generic advices one of which he immediately withdraws in order to agree with Palmar. Normally roles list are first thing I pay attention to when thinking about which game to sign up, and considering this isn't even a flavour game with unique roles and huge player roster, statement "forgot we had Millers and Veterans possible" feels wrong.
However, the thing truly scummy is
(Mafia were active too, so you could say we just had 3 players less)
I will not get up in any mad day1 witch hunt.
Lynching Kavdragon day1 seems to be very popular...
WTF? Did you just acknowledge there are no guarantee lurker are maf, yet you will go along with lurker bandwagon without scumhunting yourself?
Note the third quote. This feels really pre-emptive to me. First, sentence is passive. He just states Kavdragon lynch is occuring instead of giving out his opinion ("I think/don't think lynching Kavdragon day1 is good idea").
Second, it feels rushed. Only three posts were made after Kavdragon announced he might be afk, with Palmar and youngminii talking about his lynch. I don't know about Palmar, but it was pretty obvious that youngminii was hardly serious? The discussion about Kavdragon hadn't really started and yet you sprinted ahead to state that town seriously considered lynching of Kavdragon.
This overall reeks of scum paving the ground so when he votes for Kavdragon later on people will pay less attention to him. If this guy still refuse to engage in "mad day1 witch hunt", I know where my vote is going.
prplhz [Page4] Refer to my first paragraph. If there is no more than one veteran claim, scum have good reason to spend KP & RB on the claimee to eliminate highly confirmed Townie. A.K.A. encouraging to cop and medic is terrible idea.
It isn't your suggestion that concerns me though. It is your: 1) rambling narrative, 2) ambiguity, and 3) mediocre fingerpointing. Three classic scumtells in one? holy mackarels! ##Vote prplhz. You better start contributing or die.
By mediocre fingerpointing I mean
I don't know why Palmar would even propose it ... I don't know what to think about that but Palmar sure is starting this game out by trying to attract a lot of attention.
Perhaps the argument is valid, and indeed I woudn't have given much thought about your last paragraph if you just straightout said "Palmar is suspicious". But "I don't know what to think about that but Palmar sure is starting this game out by trying to attract a lot of attention"?
@ace @kevdragon @palmar some internal joke about caprio I didnt get? why the lynch ?
Was extremely critical of this as 'asking useless question in order to create facade of activity', but reading back over those posts I am slightly less critical. I think Palmar post had more to do with "That being said, I'm going to be really busy this weekend ... I won't be my usual super active day 1" rather than Ace.
@Mataza Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
Null tell.
@sinani I see you name me in your not posted anything yet thread - I posted just before the game started that I was going to sleep.
And why bother pointing that out? After all you just make one good post and poof your name goes off the list. Unless if you were scum, in which case you at least have reason to be feel threatened about that list & try to justify it unnaturally.
Also people, have more guts jesus christ. Enough of this "I shall so meekly, weakly make a suggestive sentence that may cause people to treat people X suspiciously without me coming off with active fos" bullshit. You too earn yummy scum points.
OriginalName, read. I said EXAMPLE, because I wanted to explain how scumhunting works to someone who has no clue. I could have said Palmar dies and then I get suspicious. Seriously read plz.
Lynching Kavdragon day1 seems to be very popular...
WTF? Did you just acknowledge there are no guarantee lurker are maf, yet you will go along with lurker bandwagon without scumhunting yourself?
Do I really need to put [sarcasm] Lynching kavdragon seems to be popular....[/sarcasm] ?
That´s exactly why I intended to not talk much day1. People create cases out of jokes, references to inside information and the fact that I am not good at wording english sentences.
OriginalName, read. I said EXAMPLE, because I wanted to explain how scumhunting works to someone who has no clue. I could have said Palmar dies and then I get suspicious. Seriously read plz.
yet your example made no sense whatsoever, and is almost entirely WifoM. That's not how scumhunting works. What hesmyrr is doing is how scumhunting works. Analyzing posting and content, not blindly looking at who died and who was talking about them. That can lead you to scum, but does not help identify them.
The argument "he died so she is suspicious" is terrible.
And it leads to clarification. Done. Better than keeping misunderstanding throughout the game. Also you are misreading my quotes and argument.
(Mafia were active too, so you could say we just had 3 players less) and I will not get up in any mad day1 witch hunt. goes with my first paragraph you talked about.
Lynching Kavdragon day1 seems to be very popular... have more to do with the rest, though I can understand it could be interpreted otherwise either.
How otherwise shall I scumhunt? I'm not asking you to craft eloquent sentence or anything (or everyone else for that matter). I am just stating people to make clear accusations. In fact, I'm willing to scratch all of my attacks above if you and other two become proactive scum hunters, because after all, net behaviour of the player can be just as telling as the single critical scum tell.
I said X died and that would make y suspicous because they argued earlier. Then you can examine who influenced that argument.
Fine, lynch me. Palmar brought nothing forward and I intended to wait for him to bring a reason up, before I put my FoS on him for that.
I am not here to explain to people what I wrote, because they are unable to read beyond what they want to find. Also if you want to have clueless people in the game, not my problem.
Hai sry i havent been able to post yet luke i said earlier im at a math comp. Ill be back in about ten hrs though. I borrowed my friends phone judt so i could maje a post to ley u guys know y i havent postef. I tried to read thru the posts so far byt tbh its hard to maje sense of anythinh on tjis tiny screen and if u havent noticed typing here is a real pita also t.t. Be here sioon tho!
On June 04 2011 12:27 Varpulis wrote: He's saying that we'd be better off lynching a scummy player and then looking at who defended/pushed for his lynch depending on his flip than we'd be if we just offed a lurker.
At this point, I'm tending to agree. I'm currently planning on putting some pressure on the lurkers early on, then focusing on who's actually scummy when there's more to analyze.
... that to bandwagoning Mataza with Palmar? There are plenty of lurkers around who have posted absolutely nothing of value (sinani206 who only has lists and bad math, stefftastiq who has one useless post, youngminii) yet you're going at Mataza who is somewhat of an easy target due to his propensity to "put a foot in his mouth" as one of our great hosts GMarshal so aptly said it in PTP.
@Palmar
I'm gonna echo Hesmyrr's request: explain ... what ton of information we get from vet claiming? It's a bad plan especially when roleblockers can block vet extra life, I can't possibly see what town would gain from vet-claim.
I'm gonna echo Hesmyrr's request: explain ... what ton of information we get from vet claiming? It's a bad plan especially when roleblockers can block vet extra life, I can't possibly see what town would gain from vet-claim.
I think I can answer this instead of Palmer.
1. We get none, we have a free target for scum to avoid ASSUMING WE HAVE A VET.
2. Said "confirmed" townie could be scum trying to control us and avoid his lynch. We also could have no vet making counterclaiming irrelevant furthering his position.
3. It creates more Wifom (see 2)
4. Claiming in a closed setup unless about to be lynched is a pointless undertaking. We have no way of confirmed outside of death and a sane DT who could also be fakeclaiming.
------
On June 05 2011 01:20 Mataza wrote: LOL.
OriginalName, read. I said EXAMPLE, because I wanted to explain how scumhunting works to someone who has no clue. I could have said Palmar dies and then I get suspicious. Seriously read plz.
I'd love to post more, but the only thing I can think of right now that's relevant to discussion is that the mataza lynch is a little hasty, I mean fair enough you can pressure people and I fully support that but it's not like he's responded to the pressure in a scummy way. I'm still for lynching inactives (if I become inactive I have no problem with you guys lynching me, but dw I won't) rather than going for a random lynching on mataza .
I'd think it's very unscummy that he declared so strongly about not joining any witch hunts. If I were mafia, I'd leave that option available just in case I could get an easy bandwagon.
my2c
I'm still for an inactive vote, but I have a suspicious finger towards palmar a little. I want to see his response to the pressure being put on him.
Originalname you shouldn't be speaking for palmar. Let him speak for himself and we'll judge how scummy his actions/response is. I mean by speaking for him it kind of looks like you're helping him, and it's way too early to be defending people, considering we have almost no information.
As for the vet claiming, I'm all for it if the entire town can get behind it. If the vet is a liar, I think we'll figure it out eventually as the days go on. If the vet dies first night because of a roleblock + hit, then we'll know that there is a roleblocker in the game. I don't see the downsides outweighing the advantages to this.
Already some serious mudslinging going on, mataza you don't need to be so defensive and martyring yourself, I hate it when people do that. It makes analysis post deaths a lot more difficult if someone attacks person A, and instead of pointing out the flaws in their attack, A just goes "fine lynch me noob, see what i flip".
Point out the flaws in Varp's attack instead. His whole attack is based on your shitty hypothetical wifom argument and is just a way to say "i dont like this type of argument". Correct me if I'm wrong varp
Also, why the hell would someone claim vet? Dumbest thing I've ever read. Claim you're vet if you've lost one life, fine. Not right up front.
On June 05 2011 03:31 JeeJee wrote: G'mornin chaps
Already some serious mudslinging going on, mataza you don't need to be so defensive and martyring yourself, I hate it when people do that. It makes analysis post deaths a lot more difficult if someone attacks person A, and instead of pointing out the flaws in their attack, A just goes "fine lynch me noob, see what i flip".
Point out the flaws in Varp's attack instead. His whole attack is based on your shitty hypothetical wifom argument and is just a way to say "i dont like this type of argument". Correct me if I'm wrong varp
Also, why the hell would someone claim vet? Dumbest thing I've ever read. Claim you're vet if you've lost one life, fine. Not right up front.
Vets are probably the strongest role in that they can fill in the role as town leader/coordinator. If the mafia want to kill him, they have to use 2KP or roleblock+hit (which not only reveals that there is a roleblocker, it uses both at once). Since the vet has a lower priority for mafia night killing, as long as the town are always cautious, the vet can act as the town pillar.
As for day1 strat, I don't really like lynching lurkers despite it being quite popular. I've just never seen it work, that's all. In fact, I much prefer seeing how people react to being put up as a candidate
Youngminii, you don't see the downsides outweighing advantages of vet claim d1? ok, what are the advantages?
2 is in fact a bad situation because, fine, we know there's a rb in the game. However, without the vet claim, if mafia decides to roleblock someone, we'd know anyway (and chances are, they would have wasted their roleblock instead of using it well). Because let's face it, if you are roleblocked, you better be telling us this asap.
1 isn't even a good situation either, because mafia won't be potentially wasting a hit on a vet. if they hit a vet unexpectedly, the vet can claim then (by "i was hit last night", not necessarily by anything specific). At that point, that person is basically a confirmed townie, and mafia will have to think about whether they should hit them again since there may be a doc on them now. And now we have your 'pillar' and we have a day's advantage
Advantage: Town gets a centralised 'voice' that can help coordinate us. Less confusion for us.
Disadvantage: None really. It's the best way to utilise the vet role, and the only flaw that there could be is if someone lied about it, but the lie should become obvious eventually.
But if you don't want to then I'm not going to argue, I think there's plenty of other/better discussion that could be happening instead of us arguing over something that you won't agree to. Better to have the palmar/mataza stuff going if this just isn't going to happen.
If someone claims veteran he will not be "confirmed" he will be confirmed. Also your "counterclaim" makes no sense, why can't there be two veterans? We don't know the setup. Your analysis of Palmar's plan is not very good.
Also ... FoS on youngminii. All he's done this game is claim noob, joke around, and then this bout of activity when I pointed out that he was lurking. His recent activity hasn't been useful either, he's trying to defend Mataza and then arguing with whoever is around about Palmar's plan, which is a bad plan. I don't see how this will get us anywhere and seems like he is just posting for the sake of posting.
On June 05 2011 02:58 prplhz wrote: I'm gonna echo Hesmyrr's request: explain ... what ton of information we get from vet claiming? It's a bad plan especially when roleblockers can block vet extra life, I can't possibly see what town would gain from vet-claim.
I was talking more about why he voted for Mataza. At least it isn't something someone else can answer for him. Possible buddying and misdirection, though first half of his post is actually pretty good.
On June 05 2011 03:25 youngminii wrote: I'd love to post more, but the only thing I can think of right now that's relevant to discussion is that the mataza lynch is a little hasty ... I'd think it's very unscummy that he declared so strongly about not joining any witch hunts. If I were mafia, I'd leave that option available just in case I could get an easy bandwagon.
12 players, and 7 people required to lynch. I don't particularly sense that the town is particularly boiling for the murder of Mataza yet, let alone anyone. What particularly gave you such impression?
Also WIFOM. I might as well argue right now that all mafia are active, and Mataza stated he won't deviate from the lurker lynch in order to create valid reasoning against team-kill. I'm bad with explanation, so I'll give you example:
All mafia agree to be active. Mafia A states he will only vote for lurkers and does so. Mafia A therefore does not have to attack nor vote his active team-mates. When people later criticize him for it, Mafia A can protect his behaviour by stating he followed his principles.
See? It's all useless. You were in TL Mafia for a while so you really should know this. I'll have to treat your post with minor suspicion as you might be trying to gain some sort of town rep. Also
I'm still for an inactive vote, but I have a suspicious finger towards palmar a little. I want to see his response to the pressure being put on him.
No vote, not even an explanation why you are suspicious/putting pressure so palmar can respond in some way? That's a pretty weaksauce pressure.
FoS on youngminii. All he's done this game is claim noob, joke around, and then this bout of activity when I pointed out that he was lurking. His recent activity hasn't been useful either, he's trying to defend Mataza and then arguing with whoever is around about Palmar's plan, which is a bad plan. I don't see how this will get us anywhere and seems like he is just posting for the sake of pos
Kinda negated considering his last paragraph. Speaking of the roleclaim discussion, wouldn't it be good idea to just let the vet decide? No matter how much argue if he doesn't claim/does claim then we are forced to work with what we have anyway.
Firstly, having a vet claim so that he can get checked by a cop is an incredibly pro-mafia plan. The only way that the town will know that he has been cleared by the cop is if the cop claims, and then we will lose the cop. Even if there is no counter claim, and they are accepted as innocent, people will start to follow that one person.
How many times must it be said. The town CANNOT rely on blue roles. In addition, Town CANNOT rely on confirmed townies being correct. I'm honestly confused how this got this far, or why Youngmini, an experienced player, is advocating it.
"But we will get someone who can lead the town!" you say? Wrong. This is a terrible idea. We cannot rely on a small group of people to do the work. This has been said time and time again in post game discussion. You cannot give all the responsibility to a small group of people, confirmed or not. What happens when the mafia kill off the head, and we are left with nothing to analyse because no one else has been putting any effort into scum hunting? Everyone must be working together to find scum.
Also, on the lynch, Mataza is a poor lynch. We focus on lurkers today.
Mataza is active enough with his posting that we will be able to analyse him fully later, but lurkers will give us very little to analyse. I've shown with my dead body more than once, that it is a bad idea to lynch active people day one. Let's not make someone else prove it.
On June 05 2011 03:44 youngminii wrote: Advantage: Town gets a centralised 'voice' that can help coordinate us. Less confusion for us.
Disadvantage: None really. It's the best way to utilise the vet role, and the only flaw that there could be is if someone lied about it, but the lie should become obvious eventually.
But if you don't want to then I'm not going to argue, I think there's plenty of other/better discussion that could be happening instead of us arguing over something that you won't agree to. Better to have the palmar/mataza stuff going if this just isn't going to happen.
I strongly disagree. I think it's a terrible way to use a vet, because either he's dead (and a guaranteed good use for the roleblock instead of a chance of wasting it) or he's a confirmed townie (something he would have been anyway except with a day's advantage if he got hit). Both of these situations are made worse due to the claim. If he doesn't get hit, in either case, he's just a townie, wasting his potential.
I don't understand how you can possibly think it's a good idea for the town, and your explanation of "centralised voice for the town" doesn't cut it given what I wrote above, and in my previous post.
FoS on youngminii. All he's done this game is claim noob, joke around, and then this bout of activity when I pointed out that he was lurking. His recent activity hasn't been useful either, he's trying to defend Mataza and then arguing with whoever is around about Palmar's plan, which is a bad plan. I don't see how this will get us anywhere and seems like he is just posting for the sake of pos
Kinda negated considering his last paragraph. Speaking of the roleclaim discussion, wouldn't it be good idea to just let the vet decide? No matter how much argue if he doesn't claim/does claim then we are forced to work with what we have anyway.
By that logic, we shouldn't discuss good prot targets for docs, potential vigi targets, investigation targets for cops etc, since we'll just have to work with what the power roles decide to do. Of course the final decision is on the vet/doc/cop/vigi/whatever, but we should discuss potential approaches so that they can make the best decision, and don't accidentally forget an aspect/potential result of a decision
I did say I won't be pushing for it but ok if thinking a plan is good makes me suspicious then lol I don't really know how to defend against that. I still think vet claiming is the best idea btw but as I said I'll let it be.
Hesmyrr, I never said my pressure.
In any case I did say I was an advocate of lynching the inactives.
Guys, my vote on mataza is pressure. His posting seemed a little off, and I wanted to see how he reacted to the votes. His reaction so far has been alright, though "go ahead an lynch me" isn't a good attitude. He still needs to step up his posting, but i don't have a read on him yet.
Back to the lurkers! This is stefftasiq's only post this game. He was sleeping when the day post came, I get that, but he hasn't posted again since.
He says that mataza playing differently is "interesting" and that sinani's "have not posted" list (which he was on) could be a way to divert attention from sinani. It's a bad post with very little content.
On June 05 2011 05:55 Palmar wrote: The roleclaim shit was just some bullshit I made up to start discussion, feel free to ignore the idea now, it's terrible anyway.
Also, Mataza is scum.
You bring up a plan to create discussion while knowing it was completely bullshit, then you tell everyone to ignore the idea (making the discussion null and void anyway)?
That's completely retarded, big FoS, if all the inactives come back before the end of the day my vote goes to you.
On June 05 2011 05:18 youngminii wrote: I did say I won't be pushing for it but ok if thinking a plan is good makes me suspicious then lol I don't really know how to defend against that. I still think vet claiming is the best idea btw but as I said I'll let it be.
Hesmyrr, I never said my pressure.
In any case I did say I was an advocate of lynching the inactives.
##Vote: unichan
It's entirely dependent on the plan. If you supported a plan where we no-lynch for the rest of the game, you are obviously supporting scum. Obviously you are not supporting something so obviously pro-scum, but you bet I'm going to call out people who are supporting pro-mafia plans. (Note: Bad plan !(necessarily)= pro-mafia plan. Pro mafia plan = Bad plan.)
On June 05 2011 05:55 Palmar wrote: The roleclaim shit was just some bullshit I made up to start discussion, feel free to ignore the idea now, it's terrible anyway.
Also, Mataza is scum.
You bring up a plan to create discussion while knowing it was completely bullshit, then you tell everyone to ignore the idea (making the discussion null and void anyway)?
That's completely retarded, big FoS, if all the inactives come back before the end of the day my vote goes to you.
I'm putting a bigger FoS on you, because I feel like it.
If you're trying to tunnel Mataza, it isn't really working. You've posted no reasons, yet stated with almost every post that he's scum. I'd rather you contribute meaningfully than tunnel blindly, thanks.
Palmar trust me when I say this, and I say this from experience, blindly pushing for a lynch based on a hunch especially without giving any real evidence just doesn't work. You need to support your lynches with reasoning otherwise you just end up being a sore thumb for the rest of the town to deal with.
Palmar, please stop fucking around. If you don't, I'm going to proceed with the assumption that you are scum trying to divert the town's attention and derail our discussion.
I'm gonna have to agree with Varpulis. If you can't handle two games at the same time maybe you could call for a replacement or something. As it is right now you're actively working against town even though I kinda doubt that you're scum. You have displayed much more refined scum play in SNMMII.
It's cool that you're trying to do some new shit but this is just silly. I'm looking forward to your post tomorrow where you will dissect everybody and provide awesome insight.
On June 05 2011 08:15 Varpulis wrote: Palmar, please stop fucking around. If you don't, I'm going to proceed with the assumption that you are scum trying to divert the town's attention and derail our discussion.
Or hes Village Idiot and GMarshal is fucking with us.
Okay I'm gonna see if I can do two things at the same time and get both a lurker and a scum.
sinani206 The guy has had 7 posts so far one "hi" post, two posts listing inactive people, two math posts, one posts where he says he's rather lynch lurkers over the scummiest player and then one single post that has any content at all; one where he asks Varpulis if he didn't change his mind rather fast.
7 posts, no content at all. This is a guy desperately trying to be active while desperately not trying to attract any attention at all. This is scum.
Interesting you say that when steff has literally 1 post and is a much better candidate for inactive lynch. It's also interesting how your two sentence analysis ends with "this is scum".
On June 05 2011 10:21 prplhz wrote: Okay I'm gonna see if I can do two things at the same time and get both a lurker and a scum.
sinani206 The guy has had 7 posts so far one "hi" post, two posts listing inactive people, two math posts, one posts where he says he's rather lynch lurkers over the scummiest player and then one single post that has any content at all; one where he asks Varpulis if he didn't change his mind rather fast.
7 posts, no content at all. This is a guy desperately trying to be active while desperately not trying to attract any attention at all. This is scum.
##Vote sinani206
Not damning evidence by any means. At least he's sharing his opinion and his reasons why. Does seem a bit sheepy though. Not sure how you came to the conclusion "this is scum" with that analysis.
Frankly, there's not enough information on the table to properly identify scum, i think. You could say that half the players in this game are trying to be active without content. It seems to me that you really wanted to find somebody scummy, so you picked a person and figured out how is posts could be interpreted as scummy.
Lynching an inactive is good and all, but it's better to lynch the one in that group that's the least active, rather than one that's just posting fluff. We can leave them for later.
OKAY OKAY I am back. I see that some people have already tagged me as the lurker, but I just happened to luck into not having internet access for the first 24 hours of the game. Day one lynches seem to be out of the blue too, so any evidence we use is going to be a huge stretch. So far I don't see anything suspicious enough to warrant me identifying them as scum, but as time draws to a close I suppose I'll have to make a final decision. This is my first game though, and I'm not 100% sure what to look out for =(
I agree with the guy above, most first day posts might seem to look like fluff posts simply because there isn't that much to talk about
On June 05 2011 05:55 Palmar wrote: The roleclaim shit was just some bullshit I made up to start discussion, feel free to ignore the idea now, it's terrible anyway.
Also, Mataza is scum.
You bring up a plan to create discussion while knowing it was completely bullshit, then you tell everyone to ignore the idea (making the discussion null and void anyway)?
That's completely retarded, big FoS, if all the inactives come back before the end of the day my vote goes to you.
Whoa whoa whoa. The discussion is definitely not null and void. How did you come to that conclusion?
Yeah he made up a deliberately shitty plan to see who would argue for/against it. I think it's actually pretty smart move by Palmar, since people who jump on supporting this proposed plan would be either eager mafia or careless townies. Which I'm sorry to say, you fall into one of those categories.
@unichan, puppy-eyes-i'm-new-to-this and lack of commitment to a decision are actually commonly perceived as scumtells. How about you go through the thread, and pick one person that you think is most likely to be scum. Look for stuff that stands out, something that just doesn't seem right, any deliberate flaws in logic, and so on. Yeah it's day one so you're not going to be particularly sure (you almost never are), but how they react to your voting, perhaps explaining their actions in further detail is extremely helpful now and down the line as well. (don't just say "I vote:X" as that's useless, but outline your reasoning as well i.e. "I vote:X because of ZY")
Okay, thanks for the advice. Palmar seems kind of weird - he starts out by asking for a veteran claim, which doesn't seem like such a good idea to me. (reasons for this have been posted previously) Also, Mataza posts something to refute him right after that and Palmar is immediately like LYNCH HIM and is all over him, which seems funny to me. Mataza doesn't seem too scummy to me from his posts so far, Palmar is a better bet in this situation IMO
Actually, I'd appreciate everybody to do that. Pick somebody who you think has been acting scummy, or whose posts aren't town friendly. Give reasons, too. We need to start some actual discussion, and everybody needs to contribute. I'll start.
Currently i'm suspicious of Palmar. -he made a bad plan early on, then tried to shrug it off as a discussion starter -he's blindly tunneling Mataza. -Random unexplained OMGUS vote on Youngminii -absolutely zero contribution, barring the terrible plan "discussion starter"
He needs to prove to us that he's on our side by making posts that say more than
On June 04 2011 20:40 Palmar wrote: you're scum.
On June 04 2011 23:43 Palmar wrote: I'm in favor of lynching you.
On June 05 2011 05:55 Palmar wrote: Also, Mataza is scum.
On June 05 2011 07:07 Palmar wrote: Not changing my vote though, cause Mataza is scum.
EBWOP: ninja'd by unichan's response. My post was in response to
How about you go through the thread, and pick one person that you think is most likely to be scum. Look for stuff that stands out, something that just doesn't seem right, any deliberate flaws in logic, and so on.
On June 04 2011 21:49 stefftastiq wrote: I'm awake! - imba Daypost! Day1 always seem to be a bit random - Cant say I have any excellent ideas of finding the scum - but I noted down what I thought while reading up :D
@ace @kevdragon @palmar
some internal joke about caprio I didnt get? why the lynch ?
@Mataza
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
@sinani I see you name me in your not posted anything yet thread - I posted just before the game started that I was going to sleep.
altho, is a list like this commonly made to lead attention away from 'yourself' ? since ofcourse you never would be named in the list
He only responds to people and does not contribute to the discussion at all. He talks about some joke that obviously does not have to do with the current game, and then asks me and Mataza some silly questions. There had not been too much wrong with Mataza's play at this point in time, so I don't see why he begins metagaming with his first post. His question toward me was particularly pointless, because I specifically stated that it was a list of players who had not posted since the Day 1 post. I obviously could not name myself in the list because by posting the list I myself would be posting. Silly filler questions to help his active lurking regimen.
oh shiiiiiet! - sorry, my post was when i first woke up - its been "day of music" in trondheim with concerts everywhere and drinking included :D
ok - i have not tried to defend anyone or either tried to mislead anything, i just asked questions to the posts which I read during breakfast.
right now im pretty drunk and have to read up a bit about how to clear your suspicion against me - but as i know im not scum i would point out that three people as far as i can count pretty fast changed vote to me - i guess scums can coordinate voteadressing like this?
i can promise a higher activity level later today as i will be hungover and watch mlg all day long
right now i dont have the name of who was suspicous of me - but i can ensure you im no harm !
I can sympathize with stefftastiq atm since I was gone too for most of the day and my first post was rife with misspellings and such, and my second wasn't all that helpful eitehr. I'll give him a chance, since he just seems to be getting acquainted and doesn't scream scum just yet. Sticking with Palmar who has several reasons against him other than "is unhelpful"
@Varpulis yeah - im more suspicious of the three voting for me - im obviously an easy target for scum to try to start a bandwagon
and it might be easier to try to see a pattern between your posts/votes than it is to base your suspicious on just that one post :-p yes i have been a bit inactive - but my questions arent really scummy, they are just questions i noted while reading through the thread - and in this game, im suspicious about everybody - and asking questions are bringing back some answers
but as i mentioned earlier, ill be back after some sleep - if you still really feel im scummy - ill try to prove im town, if its really needed - and i can guarantee you that you are on the wrong track
just by looking by the votingrecordpattern you can tell that varpulis and palmar first voted for mataza, then both changed to me.. i might be an easier target for a first day lynch !
alright, stefftastiq's at least making an effort now. I'd be interested to see his posts when he's not drunk and tired. Get some rest steff! If you don't contribute tomorrow this vote's right back on you.
It seems that we're out of lurkers. Everybody has at least posted something. Once more time passes we'll see who isn't super active, but for now it's back to pressuring.
RL issues came up, I think I am going to be busy for two to three days. At very least I cannot guarantee I'll have enough time to play this. So I'll have to back out of this game again. Sincere apologizes, having not played mafia for a while I must have forgotten how much time commitment this game takes.
Right, I will split this into two posts, for readability.
Let's do this, we do not have much discussion, but at least we have something and almost everyone has by this point contributed a post or two that can be analysed.
Youngminii is giving me town vibes. Even if he agreed with a plan that's bad, he seemed to be doing it for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. He's active, although I would've liked him to just actually cast a vote against me instead of doing the whole "FoS" thing. I like aggressive town behavior, cause I feel it puts people on the ropes faster. I think we ought to not lynch him tonight.
Hesmyrr is another guy I feel I need to talk about. He seems pro-town, but with his replacement, he becomes infinitely harder to read. This is a good target for a cop check, I think. Again, not a good lynch target.
Mataza is weird this game. This observation is purely based on meta, but normally Mataza is both aggressive and borderline crazy. He suggest crazy plans, draws weird logic conclusions and attacks people left and right. This game he has been playing very carefully, to the point where he's using meta to defend himself, see here:
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
Yes, it´s quite sensible really. With my normal start I was widely perceived as random and scummy, which is not good for my play whatsoever. I could of course say it´s only good for my town play, but that would be deceiving you. As Scum, lynching me is obviously what I don´t want. As Town, lynching me would be a mislynch and that´s also bad for town.
Also Prplhz get a grip on yourself. Since this setup has no PMs, claims are just a bad play. I only advocated claims in SNM2 because we could deduce the exact setup. Here, we have to do it by plain old scumhunting.
For example tomorrow we know the kill of night 1. Now for example if I would drop dead, it would make Palmar a suspect. Then again you can go by the fact that Palmar wouldn´t be that straightforward and look for someone who furthered an argument between us 2 without getting himself involved. Just like Giygas badly tried to play me and Viscera against each other in SNM2.
Vanilla vs Vanilla as working assumption, all in favor?
I think Mataza might be a good lynch target tonight, but there's one other I'd rather lynch
I mean, it is only his third game, so one could argue that this is just him trying to step up his game, but this is also mine, stefftastiq's and prplhz's third game.
Which brings me to stefftastiq and prplhz. I feel really uneasy about both of them. Stefftastiq is once again, very careful, something I know he does as town, but I would assume that at some point he would step up his game.
prplhz seems less useful than I'd expect of him, but maybe he was doing the same thing as me and waiting to post some analysis today, now that we've got information. Also, he suspects my prime suspect, so that helps him
Last person I wanna talk about is sinani206. He has contributed almost absolutely nothing to this game. He created a damn list of post-counts, and he's updating us with vote-counts. This is the lamest excuse for activity I have ever seen. My previous attitude of randomly calling out people for lynching was even more useful than those damn lists.
I'm not going to include his lists in this.
On June 04 2011 12:48 sinani206 wrote: Yes I completely agree, but if we don't have any outstandingly scummy players there is no point in choosing the scummiest player (who might not be very scummy at all) over a player with one post and an unexplained vote.
Wanting to lynch inactive players is a terrible way to play day 1. Wanting to push inactive or useless people, like has been done to me and stefftastiq is a good way to play. You never want to end up lynching the inactive, cause it's almost guaranteed that you'll end up killing a bored townie.
The end vote should much rather go to someone who is actively lurking, but not contributing. Do you know who I'm talking about?
On June 04 2011 13:58 sinani206 wrote: Varpulis, why did you change your mind so quickly after Hesmyrr posted?
On June 04 2011 21:49 stefftastiq wrote: I'm awake! - imba Daypost! Day1 always seem to be a bit random - Cant say I have any excellent ideas of finding the scum - but I noted down what I thought while reading up :D
@ace @kevdragon @palmar
some internal joke about caprio I didnt get? why the lynch ?
@Mataza
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
@sinani I see you name me in your not posted anything yet thread - I posted just before the game started that I was going to sleep.
altho, is a list like this commonly made to lead attention away from 'yourself' ? since ofcourse you never would be named in the list
He only responds to people and does not contribute to the discussion at all. He talks about some joke that obviously does not have to do with the current game, and then asks me and Mataza some silly questions. There had not been too much wrong with Mataza's play at this point in time, so I don't see why he begins metagaming with his first post. His question toward me was particularly pointless, because I specifically stated that it was a list of players who had not posted since the Day 1 post. I obviously could not name myself in the list because by posting the list I myself would be posting. Silly filler questions to help his active lurking regimen.
##Vote stefftastiq
I don't really understand your motives here. You are much more of an active lurker than Stefftastiq, and you actually have a good history of being useful as town, so I'm very suspicious of you. Stefftastiq's meta suggests that he's very careful even when he's town, so while that doesn't clear him by any stretch of the imagination, it certainly pushes my suspicion rather towards you, seeing I know you're capable of very strong town play.
And that's it. Sinani206 pointed out that he has a lot of posts, as that would somehow absolve him of suspicion, but it's just bullshit. He's posting a ton, pushing for lynch on people that don't post, but nothing he's posting has any content at all.
I don't think he would've changed his posting habits if someone hadn't pushed him hard like I'm doing now. We will probably get a "useful" post from him in wake of this. Let's see just how useful it is.
On June 05 2011 03:31 JeeJee wrote: G'mornin chaps
Already some serious mudslinging going on, mataza you don't need to be so defensive and martyring yourself, I hate it when people do that. It makes analysis post deaths a lot more difficult if someone attacks person A, and instead of pointing out the flaws in their attack, A just goes "fine lynch me noob, see what i flip".
Point out the flaws in Varp's attack instead. His whole attack is based on your shitty hypothetical wifom argument and is just a way to say "i dont like this type of argument". Correct me if I'm wrong varp
Also, why the hell would someone claim vet? Dumbest thing I've ever read. Claim you're vet if you've lost one life, fine. Not right up front.
Vets are probably the strongest role in that they can fill in the role as town leader/coordinator. If the mafia want to kill him, they have to use 2KP or roleblock+hit (which not only reveals that there is a roleblocker, it uses both at once). Since the vet has a lower priority for mafia night killing, as long as the town are always cautious, the vet can act as the town pillar.
Bolded for reference.
I don´t know what good a designated town leader/coordinator does in a game without PMs. Since everything he says is in the open, he cannot coordinate night actions without letting the scum know it. That leaves analysis and scumhunting, for which we don´t need a leader. Actually a single, declared leader is detrimental, as it can devolve into "follow the leader" and scum sucking up to him.
And Palmar: Me trying to improve my playstyle so that I have a little more credibility is apparently a bad thing now? No use going further into this as meta reads are circumstantial evidences. Only meta behavior alone is an awful way of playing mafia. That´s exactly the type of witch hunt I don´t want to be part of.
On other issues: I didn´t know that it´s common for Veterans second life to be roleblockable. That is probably good for town, because it can force the mafia to put nk and rb on the same person, or they risk not getting the kill they want.
And Sinani did only awful list posts so far. He didn´t do that any other game I was in with him. Although I get the feeling I greatly overestimate the people I played with, this is far beyond what is acceptable.
##vote Sinani Your time is lapsing. Step it up.
And is this normal for youngminii to vote with sheeped reasons? For all the hype people in this forum bring towards experienced players, many of those are sure no role models for how to play.
Hello everyone, my name is dementrio and I am a citizen. Sorry for being late to the party but I needed some time to catch up and read the thread a couple times.
This is my first game of mafia (played werewolf once before) and I don't have enough experience to know whether the vet claiming or defaulting to lynching the least active player D1 are good policies, I won't comment on that. I think the best I can do is trying to identify the players I think act the scummiest or towniest.
So far the one that caught my attention is sinani206. He started out with a list of inactives 8 posts into the day and I was especially perplexed by this comment
Varpulis, why did you change your mind so quickly after Hesmyrr posted?
where to me it seemed varpulis was just trying to clarify to sinani himself what the lurker discussion was about. He had no change of mind at all and this struck me as an unnecessarily aggressive remark that can lead to no helpful discussion. I know that this is no proof, hardly everything is in this game, but I was taught that it's always a good idea to lynch someone who acts scummy, even when a mafioso would be less obvious, because a townie who plays like that hurts the town anyway. The rests of his contributions where updates on who posted less. So far I'm inclined to vote for sinani.
My thoughts on other players:
prplhz -
FoS on youngminii. All he's done this game is claim noob, joke around, and then this bout of activity when I pointed out that he was lurking. His recent activity hasn't been useful either, he's trying to defend Mataza and then arguing with whoever is around about Palmar's plan, which is a bad plan. I don't see how this will get us anywhere and seems like he is just posting for the sake of posting.
when he wrote this youngmiini had not claimed noob, and contributed more than prp did, although both about the somewhat fruitless vet claiming discussion. Prplhz made an easy list of "inactive players" and youngmiini happened to be the first to talk a bit after that, with prplhz immediately jumping on him and using this as the argument for his guilt, which is an incredibly weak argument if you ask me. I lean scum on him.
Varpulis - I think he is town. He seems suspicious of everyone yet reluctant to condemn anyone, which is the only sensible approach town can have on d1 imo. His accusational posts also have a towny feeling to them, saying things like "please be more helpful" instead of "you are scum".
Palmar - he spent the day coming up with the claim idea, calling everyone scum, then tossing his own idea as a terrible one and just a "conversation starter". Until he actually made some meaningful contributions in his lasts two posts. I think the way he acted for most of the day was so anti-town that he would deserve to be lynched just for that, but as I am writing this he might be the only one who actually posted his thoughts and arguments on players which is the only thing we really need right now. He might have done so just in response to pressure, but I will hold my judgement on him, I think he would be a bad d1 lynch because he's one of the few who actually wrote useful posts.
jeejee - he told unichan he should try to pick people who he thinks are scum and explain why. This is solid advice, so much so that I would like to hear jeejee do it himself.
youngmiini - I have no idea where he stands, not because of lack of contributions but rather because I can't lean him on one side yet.
unichan - in my first and only werewolf game i was randed wolf and I acted like he is doing now, hiding behind inexperience and expressing timid remarks about how something can be vaguely towny or scummy in dire fear of doing a wrong step. However i don't know how a newbie town would act and in my first game everyone actually thought my attitude was very villagery and I won by being the last wolf standing :\ I think we need to see what he has to say when he gains confidence.
Mataza - all he has done is talking about metagame and game mechanics, sneaking in a bandwagon vote in the very last post. I lean scum on him.
Kavdragon, stefftastiq and Originalname made no meaningful contribution in my opinion. I need to hear more from them.
While I was writing this it seems that sinani has become the bandwagon; I think he's a good one but I would also like to hear from the other suspects / inactives, so
#Vote prplhz
p.s. is there a handy way to make multiquote posts like this with links to the various quoted posts, or do I have to copypaste each link manually?
Palmar your posts have been extremely disgusting and illogical up to this point. You recent posts have been better but your accusation against sinani is completely misguided. He decided to go for a policy (inactive) lynch and all his actions thus far have been in line with that line of reasoning. You on the other hand, have repeatedly posted crap after crap until finally posting a flawed 'analysis' on someone who already has a vote for the same reason you posted AND the person who seems like the easiest to lynch, based on the town's 'policy'.
While I am remaining suspicious of sinani and steff for their inactivity, you have repeatedly shown throughout your posts that you are one of the following: A. Scum B. Unfit for town C. Village Idiot
Also I'm unvoting Steff because he's put in an effort, as little as it may be. You still have to step it up Steff.
The analysis isn't flawed. Policy lynching inactive people is stupid, and will never hit a scum. I may be wrong, but my reasons are certainly valid enough. Lynching people who you think are unfit for town is also stupid, cause that means you're not hitting scum.
I'm glad you actually stuck a vote on me this time though, even if the thought process behind it is flawed, at least you're aggressive enough this time to at least have a hope of creating discussion. Congratulations.
The reason you want to hit people is because they behave in a way that scum should behave. The thought process you should be going through is "If I were scum, would I be posting this". Only Mataza and Sinani206 fit my bill when I went through the thread. I would try to play somewhat like them if I was the scum.
Now, you may not agree with my methods to the point you're willing to vote me off for them, but can you honestly go through my posts and say "this is how I'd post if I was scum".
Palmar's back and posting well. good. Most of his points make sense to me. Sinani needs to step it up as well. He has 13 posts since the game began, and only 1 with real content, and that was joining the bandwagon on stefftastiq and parroting what the rest of us gave as reasons. My vote ends up on him at the end of today if he doesn't start posting better.
Meanwhile, i found another lurker. Kavdragon has yet to post his opinion about anybody. He advocates lynching lurkers to the extent that we should "focus on lurkers" today instead of pressure and discuss. The only thing going for him is that he shot down the discussion starter vet claim plan.
He said that he won't be lurking, I'd like him to prove it.
What I was thinking about when I said "claim noob" wasn't him saying "I claim noob" but him throwing out some excuse for his poor play, even before we had begun as evident in his first post:
On June 04 2011 16:14 youngminii wrote: Reporting in.
I haven't played mafia in a long time so hopefully I don't screw town over too hard.
@Varpulis: I'd rather lynch a lurker than do a random lynch.
Also I never said that youngminii was guilty of ANYTHING. I simply FoS'ed him because I thought that his play was not very good. I didn't get the same scummy feeling reading his posts but I thought that it was weird how he contributed nothing, and then totally tried to change his behavior once the slightest pressure was put on him, and I really mean the slightest pressure 'cause he had been mentioned only twice in the entire game, sinani206's list and me when I pointed out his inactivity because I wanted to put some pressure on Varpulis. And then he made another 9 posts, 4 within half an hour, mostly talking nonsense about a bad plan.
Sudden change in behavior when pressure is applied is not townie.
Everything aside I don't currently think that youngminii is scummier than sinani206 but his defense of sinani206 is quite bad and if it turns out siani206 flips scum then youngminii will have some explaining to do. Also this vote on Palmar is pretty weird but less weird considering that he probably doesn't know Palmar's meta.
Palmar The guy has been creating most of the drama so far and while it did make people talk I don't think it was good for town. His first posts only served to put pressure on Mataza, very light pressure as there were no arguments at all but pressure nonetheless.
I think his last two posts with analysis have made him a lot less dangerous to have around and. I also don't like the idea of lynching one of the more active and powerful assets this town could have on day1, we should keep him around and get a better read on him, we can always lynch in case he gets too scummy.
Mataza The dude has mostly reacted to the pressure that was put on him in the beginning and he didn't do that too gracefully ("Fine, lynch me."). His most recent post was a bit more defense and a bandwagon vote for sinani206. I think you need to put more out there and be more active in scum hunting 'cause I know you know how to apply pressure. Just don't lose yourself in some silly crusade.
sinani206 His activity after my initial vote and analysis has been more lists, a bandwagon on stefftastiq (sinani206's vote put him to 3 votes total at the time even though he's down to one now). Then he has a lot of spammy edits with no content after that. I don't see any reason to change my vote. You can do better than that sinani206.
OriginalName The guy has posted surprisingly little so far. I'd like to see more from you as I don't believe you have posted an excuse for your relative inactivity either. Who do you think is scummy and are any of those scummy enough that we should lynch them instead of going for an information lynch?
Also I'd like if we started organizing votes a little more. It's all over the place, half of us are being voted for right now. Candidates right now as I see them are:
sinani206 for scummy behavior OriginalName/stefftastiq/unichan for relative inactivity, I'd pick stefftastiq out of these 'cause with meta and all I think he's the one who will be least useful for town in the long run If you want a candidate for active scum/information lynch then you'll have to go somewhere else 'cause I don't like the idea of lynching an active player day1.
How you people like these candidates?
Oh Varpulis just posted: Kavdragon said here that he'd be somewhat inactive for day1 so I doubt your pressure is gonna work.
On June 05 2011 23:06 Palmar wrote: The analysis isn't flawed. Policy lynching inactive people is stupid, and will never hit a scum. I may be wrong, but my reasons are certainly valid enough. Lynching people who you think are unfit for town is also stupid, cause that means you're not hitting scum.
I'm glad you actually stuck a vote on me this time though, even if the thought process behind it is flawed, at least you're aggressive enough this time to at least have a hope of creating discussion. Congratulations.
The reason you want to hit people is because they behave in a way that scum should behave. The thought process you should be going through is "If I were scum, would I be posting this". Only Mataza and Sinani206 fit my bill when I went through the thread. I would try to play somewhat like them if I was the scum.
Now, you may not agree with my methods to the point you're willing to vote me off for them, but can you honestly go through my posts and say "this is how I'd post if I was scum".
If you can, then keep doing your thing man.
... what is this really
I'm gunning for you because your reasoning/play has been scummy so far, it doesn't have anything to do with whether I agree or disagree with your 'methods'.
Also, less belittlement please.
Basically your post had no real content. You reaffirm your belief that lynching inactives is stupid, yet you never disagreed with anyone about it earlier. There are plenty of people other than sinani advocating the inactive lynch, including myself, yet you don't even consider this in your crusade against sinani.
Then you go on and post a bunch of bullshit for the sake of content.
No, you are definitely the scummiest in this town.
Disclaimer: My vote stays on originalname until he shows up or it becomes clear that he's not going to. My next vote will go to the person that i think we should lynch today. I've pressured enough, it's time to be decisive. As of now, I've got a few town reads, a few scum reads, and a couple of null reads. they are as follows:
Town
Varpulis -You think I'd put myself anywhere else?
hesmyrr dementrio -hessmyr was contributing well and being critical before he had to sub out. I hope that dementrio can do the same, because his replacee was quite pro town. Further reads will be tough though, so I'm going to treat him as a new player from this point on.
Mataza -not the best start, but I'm liking his most recent posting. It's logical and straightforward.
JeeJee -Logical, helpful, and critical. His posting gives me town vibes, and I agree with his arguments.
Palmar -retarded posting early, recent posts are good. For now, I'll tentatively call him green, though i'm less confident on him.
Prplhz -town vibe. much like JeeJee, his posting is quite good, except for this one, which is fluff.
Null reads
Unichan Kavdragon OriginalName stefftastiq
Scum
Youngminii -supported a terrible mafia favored plan with terrible logic. References experience but isn't showing strong play. Votes Palmar for an analysis that he doesn't agree with.
Sinani206 -Actively lurking, not providing opinion, posting lists in order to seem like he's contributing.
My vote goes on Sinani at the end of the day if he doesn't step up his posting.
On June 06 2011 00:18 prplhz wrote: Palmar The guy has been creating most of the drama so far and while it did make people talk I don't think it was good for town. His first posts only served to put pressure on Mataza, very light pressure as there were no arguments at all but pressure nonetheless.
This line really stands out as odd to me.. Making people talk is just about the most pro-town thing you can do, especially on day 1.
In general, I'm getting a pretty pro-town vibe from palmar actually, he started off day1 firing in 2 ways, tunneling on one person and shitty plan bait, this raised great discussion imho as a result of both of these, and is a very pro-town move on day1 where discussion is hard to find unless you force it in such a way ==> I am not sure why there's votes on him (for the record, whoever's been keeping the vote counts, they've been quite wrong. plus it's kind of pointless to arrange them by the voters rather than the "votees"). I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see minii doing what he does though =/ My suspicion of him isn't abating as he posts more, /shrug
At the mo, I'm happy to keep my vote on minii; although searching for sinani's posts, and seeing that they are quite exclusively based on vote lists (and earlier on inactive lists), does make me frown. He did have a part of a post address steff, but if you ask me, that's not enough. Actually I want his stance on the main people that are talking* right now: palmar, minii, varp, myself if you feel so inclined.
*talking with substance I mean, sorry but keeping lists doesn't count. only time I'd bring lists into the discussion is if someone is at L-2 or L-1 to make sure that everyone knows the importance of votes at that time
On June 06 2011 01:41 Varpulis wrote: Disclaimer: My vote stays on originalname until he shows up or it becomes clear that he's not going to. My next vote will go to the person that i think we should lynch today. I've pressured enough, it's time to be decisive. As of now, I've got a few town reads, a few scum reads, and a couple of null reads. they are as follows:
Town
Varpulis -You think I'd put myself anywhere else?
hesmyrr dementrio -hessmyr was contributing well and being critical before he had to sub out. I hope that dementrio can do the same, because his replacee was quite pro town. Further reads will be tough though, so I'm going to treat him as a new player from this point on.
Mataza -not the best start, but I'm liking his most recent posting. It's logical and straightforward.
JeeJee -Logical, helpful, and critical. His posting gives me town vibes, and I agree with his arguments.
Palmar -retarded posting early, recent posts are good. For now, I'll tentatively call him green, though i'm less confident on him.
Prplhz -town vibe. much like JeeJee, his posting is quite good, except for this one, which is fluff.
Null reads
Unichan Kavdragon OriginalName stefftastiq
Scum
Youngminii -supported a terrible mafia favored plan with terrible logic. References experience but isn't showing strong play. Votes Palmar for an analysis that he doesn't agree with.
Sinani206 -Actively lurking, not providing opinion, posting lists in order to seem like he's contributing.
My vote goes on Sinani at the end of the day if he doesn't step up his posting.
Sorry I'm teenager who was just sleeping in. Just catching up will post in abit.
On June 05 2011 23:06 Palmar wrote: The analysis isn't flawed. Policy lynching inactive people is stupid, and will never hit a scum. I may be wrong, but my reasons are certainly valid enough. Lynching people who you think are unfit for town is also stupid, cause that means you're not hitting scum.
I'm glad you actually stuck a vote on me this time though, even if the thought process behind it is flawed, at least you're aggressive enough this time to at least have a hope of creating discussion. Congratulations.
The reason you want to hit people is because they behave in a way that scum should behave. The thought process you should be going through is "If I were scum, would I be posting this". Only Mataza and Sinani206 fit my bill when I went through the thread. I would try to play somewhat like them if I was the scum.
Now, you may not agree with my methods to the point you're willing to vote me off for them, but can you honestly go through my posts and say "this is how I'd post if I was scum".
If you can, then keep doing your thing man.
... what is this really
I'm gunning for you because your reasoning/play has been scummy so far, it doesn't have anything to do with whether I agree or disagree with your 'methods'.
Also, less belittlement please.
Basically your post had no real content. You reaffirm your belief that lynching inactives is stupid, yet you never disagreed with anyone about it earlier. There are plenty of people other than sinani advocating the inactive lynch, including myself, yet you don't even consider this in your crusade against sinani.
Then you go on and post a bunch of bullshit for the sake of content.
No, you are definitely the scummiest in this town.
killing the most inactive player is stupid. if you had actually bothered to read my analysis you'd see the main foundation is sinani's useless non-content posts and his active lurking.
feel free to provide an alternative, but at least man up and base your accusation on something other than "you're scummy".
At the Moment most of my opinions from yesterday still stand.
The only really new thing I have to bring to the table is i'm going to push stefftastiq harder as in anycase lynching lurkers now is better than having them at Lylo, and considering this is a mini game this is going to come much much sooner than we want. I highly suggest lynching him today unless he really steps up.
On June 06 2011 02:46 OriginalName wrote: At the Moment most of my opinions from yesterday still stand.
The only really new thing I have to bring to the table is i'm going to push stefftastiq harder as in anycase lynching lurkers now is better than having them at Lylo, and considering this is a mini game this is going to come much much sooner than we want. I highly suggest lynching him today unless he really steps up.
##Vote Stefftastiq
Thanks for the contribution. You know that you're doing exactly what scum would do, right? Hiding behind voting for a lurker instead of discussing who you actually think is scummy.
I'd like a real contribution, please. What do you think of Palmar, Youngminii, myself, or Mataza?
Who do you think is the scummiest player in this game? Even if you want to lynch a lurker, you need to be talking about scum, or else we accomplish nothing today.
... What opinions exactly? The only real opinion I can find is you saying 2.5 hours into day1 that day1 lynches are mostly dumb luck. And now you're trying to lynch a lurker who doesn't really appear to be scummy, just because he is inactive? Something that you are too. I agree with Varpulis here, this is really weak from you.
@Varpulis
Maybe your pressure of the lesser active people in this game would work better if you didn't clearly state that you are not going to press for a lynch and that you are going to vote sinani206 later.
@JeeJee
I don't think it's good for town to discuss a poor plan laid forward by a guy who also didn't really mean it. I think maybe town could have done something more useful with our time. But you are right, it really did get people talking and that's good I think I said that in my post too.
Yep, I voted for Palmar to see how he would react to it - and I'd say he did pretty well. However his crazy Mataza crusade at the beginning is still sticking with me, and probably will for a while
youngminii -
Basically your post had no real content. You reaffirm your belief that lynching inactives is stupid, yet you never disagreed with anyone about it earlier. There are plenty of people other than sinani advocating the inactive lynch, including myself, yet you don't even consider this in your crusade against sinani.
Then you go on and post a bunch of bullshit for the sake of content.
No, you are definitely the scummiest in this town.
His posts weren't bullshit, they were him reacting to people questioning his claims, and pressure put on due to votes. Why are you still ripping on him, even though he wasn't going after you? Trying to keep this bandwagon alive?
sinani206 - All this guy has been posting are statistics, seems like he wants to look useful to get people off his back while not actually being helpful at all.
On June 05 2011 21:03 dementrio wrote: unichan - in my first and only werewolf game i was randed wolf and I acted like he is doing now, hiding behind inexperience and expressing timid remarks about how something can be vaguely towny or scummy in dire fear of doing a wrong step. However i don't know how a newbie town would act and in my first game everyone actually thought my attitude was very villagery and I won by being the last wolf standing :\ I think we need to see what he has to say when he gains confidence.
I'm a shy poster generally, not just here - this is my first game and I really haven't found my comfort zone yet, as usual I'm scared of saying something retarded and people jumping on me
Anyways, Palmar has proven himself to me enough, for the time being my suspicions have shifted to youngminii and sinani. My stance on lurkers/unhelpful posters atm is neutral, there's still enough time left in the day for them to come forward with something useful.
Maybe your pressure of the lesser active people in this game would work better if you didn't clearly state that you are not going to press for a lynch and that you are going to vote sinani206 later.
right. I'm not switching my vote until I see content. He's shown up, but he hasn't posted anything of value. My vote stays until he seems less scummy than sinani, which isn't yet the case.
Sinani gets my vote if it becomes clear that a vote on a lurker/somebody else won't accomplish much. Right now, I like my vote where it is.
what would benefit the town would probably be to try to separate who are voting based on good arguments, and who are taking "shortcuts"
it seems like quite a few players just are cycling their votes to target other people which are either "inactive" "lurking" which are pretty vague things to suspect scum of - atleast thats what i think.
i saw some posts about picking the player that seems most scummy - and post your thoughts on him - i feel its kinda hard, but i see if i can post a few thoughts on the ones i feel point out for now.
@youngminii are you just trying to push everybody? i swapped your vote from unichan to me without any reason at all - maybe you need a little push yourself, make me think you are not scum - didnt you suggest a plan for the vet to claim his role? isnt that kinda ruining for town play?
@Varpulis What im not suspicious about is why you voted for me (lurkyness, ok) - ive cleared that. But what is suspicious is that you and palmar both first pushed mataza - then me, without really discussing it together in the thread as far as i noticed?
@sinani sinani is probably the guy im most suspicious about right now - probably because he has posted less content than me, but still "claim to be a bigger part of the game" or something like that - its hard to read scummyness out of his few posts, but it seems like he just tryes to push for someone else than himself.
@originalname you actually just have some thoughts about mataza to easy on defending himself - and then after doing some lurking/inactivity of your own you actually change your vote to me and your reason being me beeing inactive while you were actually just as inactive yourself... it doesnt compute!
Have to read up a bit more on the rest of you guys! still some hours left
as I've learned Palmar can play many roles - both being hardass with pointy fingers voting to pressure - but also playing strategicly by maybe not pointing the fingers at the people he "actually targets" - if he is town - this is ofcourse a good thing, if hes scum, its scary as hell!
@sinani you should really reveal your true reasons for voting for me - you type "as stated earlier" - but what is it really? just by staying so hardcore on voting for me for asking questions about what other players write makes you a bit scummy too me - I think you are trying to form a bandwagon - but fail.
@Varpulis Yeah - i know - but your votes still followed the same pattern - its loose, I know! But i know Palmars style of play a bit - and in this game its possible to play on a team without it seeming so in public - have to be suspicious!
its still day 1 - these were just my thoughts - you replied, thumbs up!
On June 04 2011 21:49 stefftastiq wrote: I'm awake! - imba Daypost! Day1 always seem to be a bit random - Cant say I have any excellent ideas of finding the scum - but I noted down what I thought while reading up :D
@ace @kevdragon @palmar
some internal joke about caprio I didnt get? why the lynch ?
@Mataza
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
@sinani I see you name me in your not posted anything yet thread - I posted just before the game started that I was going to sleep.
altho, is a list like this commonly made to lead attention away from 'yourself' ? since ofcourse you never would be named in the list
He only responds to people and does not contribute to the discussion at all. He talks about some joke that obviously does not have to do with the current game, and then asks me and Mataza some silly questions. There had not been too much wrong with Mataza's play at this point in time, so I don't see why he begins metagaming with his first post. His question toward me was particularly pointless, because I specifically stated that it was a list of players who had not posted since the Day 1 post. I obviously could not name myself in the list because by posting the list I myself would be posting. Silly filler questions to help his active lurking regimen.
##Vote stefftastiq
@Palmar - i honestly didnt see that vote myself, but sinani posted his votingcount... which included you so I thought it was legit, it obviously wasnt (maybe even that was done to make people vote in his direction...."
Sinani claimed it was an error in copying from his excel spreadsheet, iirc. Palmar started on Mataza, switched to youngminii, hasn't changed his vote since.
On June 06 2011 06:00 Varpulis wrote: Sinani claimed it was an error in copying from his excel spreadsheet, iirc. Palmar started on Mataza, switched to youngminii, hasn't changed his vote since.
Incorrect. Following my actual analysis on sinani206, I switched my vote to him.
I think youngminii is town, but I can't be sure. I still think Mataza is acting kinda scummy, but sinani feels like the right thing at the moment, we don't need a town accountant to tell us vote scores and keep a list of inactive players.
this is scary - ive got the two "most scummy" guys voting for me - seein as there could be more scum they could probably coordinate a lynch for me if two more move their votes to me, which would be catastrophic! :p
but if they do - atleast they reveal themself as scum
On June 06 2011 06:00 Varpulis wrote: Sinani claimed it was an error in copying from his excel spreadsheet, iirc. Palmar started on Mataza, switched to youngminii, hasn't changed his vote since.
Incorrect. Following my actual analysis on sinani206, I switched my vote to him.
I think youngminii is town, but I can't be sure. I still think Mataza is acting kinda scummy, but sinani feels like the right thing at the moment, we don't need a town accountant to tell us vote scores and keep a list of inactive players.
Alright, my vote on OriginalName is accomplishing nothing at this point. He needs to step up his posting or I'll be gunning for him later. [red]sinani206[/red
On June 06 2011 05:31 sinani206 wrote: OK, now that that's settled, I am staying with my vote on stefftastiq for reasons that I have already stated. What else do you want me to say?
In this post, he pretends that he doesn't know what he was expected to post. I call bullshit. He's avoiding posting an opinion and hiding behind his lurker vote. At this point, he's playing to a scum objective, by lurking actively and not giving us quality posts to analyze.
##unvote OriginalName ##vote sinani206 As an aside, i've got a major noobtown read on stefftastiq atm.
On June 06 2011 06:19 Varpulis wrote: Alright, my vote on OriginalName is accomplishing nothing at this point. He needs to step up his posting or I'll be gunning for him later. sinani206
On June 06 2011 05:31 sinani206 wrote: OK, now that that's settled, I am staying with my vote on stefftastiq for reasons that I have already stated. What else do you want me to say?
In this post, he pretends that he doesn't know what he was expected to post. I call bullshit. He's avoiding posting an opinion and hiding behind his lurker vote. At this point, he's playing to a scum objective, by lurking actively and not giving us quality posts to analyze.
##unvote OriginalName ##vote sinani206 As an aside, i've got a major noobtown read on stefftastiq atm.
fixing failed formatting. Also, I forgot to mention that he posted
On June 06 2011 04:43 sinani206 wrote: Does a lynch kill a veteran
out of the blue. I can't seem to figure out why exactly he posted that. Curiosity maybe? Has no connection to stefftastiq, or the decision to lynch him, at least that I can see.
On June 06 2011 05:39 Varpulis wrote: If you would be so kind, please tell us
who you think is town, and why
who you think is mafia, and why
If you had to lynch somebody other than stefftastiq, who would it be and why
OriginalName Postlist:
points out the obvious
"chill" post
answers a question that doesn't have to do with him
joke
sleeping in excuse post
votes for stefftastiq
What we may have here is a scum trying to hid among the actives with 6 contentless posts since the Day 1 post.
youngminii Much like ON until he votes for Palmar. I'm not really sure what to make of him.
Mataza He switches from his usual townie style after being accused and then not a lot of content after that. Not much more to say.
JeeJee He has been quite town-friendly. Good content, especially in his later posts.
unichan Lurks, votes for Palmar, and then unvotes, saying it was just to see how Palmar would react. This is a scummy excuse because he didn't say he was doing it for a reaction when he voted.
Palmar Confusing.
Kavdragon Says to focus on lurkers then lurks.
dementrio Hesmyrr was very active and town-friendly and dementrio's first post seems to continue this trend.
Varpulis Most active, but sometimes this is what the mafia try to do. 75% town.
prplhz Medium activity, tries his hardest.
stefftastiq I am sticking with him unless one of the other players I marked red surprises me.
If I couldn't vote for stefftastiq, I would vote for Kavdragon, because he is a lurker and scummy.
##Unvote Stephfftastiq - ok yeah im a hypocrite but thats life.
Im sorry if I didnt make it clear that I didnt like Mataza and Palmer that much, however since neither of them are likely to be lynched (and Palmer somewhat improving) I'd still like to point out that most of Mataza's posts are fairly useless and absurd fluff.
On a side note, using Meta to defend oneself is nearly pointless as you could theoreticaly came in with a much different playstyle to being with.
Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless rather then just somewhat so like others [spoiler][yes including myself -_-/spoiler].
While lists can organize data postcount really doesnt matter as you could have someone with 10 long content filled posts or, 20 short spam notes just flip flopping your vote around pressuring others while making you seem pro-town while you don't do much else.
I will go along with a Sinani lynch for now but I would like to consider elsewhere as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus, he also thinks practically everyone is scummy.
I don't understand why everyone is voting for me. I've tried my hardest. Let's actually lynch a mafia and then vigilante can kill me if he wants. I also don't understand why everyone is unvoting steff. All he did was OMGUS vote me.
@Sinani Yaah, OMGUS vote - well - you arent giving me something to work with - I am actually afraid that you are a townie being lynched for overacting and pointing to much fingers - but I still find you way to scummy to vote for someone else right now? just your behaviour to try to pin votes on me was a scummy kind of way to do it - its ok to say inactivity, but when that argument isnt valid anymore - you should really try to find something else that atleast might put me in a scummy light? or maybe change opinion and try to work out whats best for town and find someone who actually is scum. but you wont....
also what you bring to the thread is like its pointed out in originalnames post, pretty thin - and now that you are "in the chair" - it doesnt really look like you try to step it up to do something.
theres 4 hours untill the voting ends - and you say its like "OMGUS" vote for me to vote for you - im not just basing my vote on you because you are voting for me, theres the pattern of all your behaviour - and that is kind of my point...
Also you have convinced me steff. You are probably just a townie defending himself. I am sorry. I will vote for Kavdragon instead for the reasons stated in my above overall analysis.
On June 06 2011 07:16 sinani206 wrote: Also you have convinced me steff. You are probably just a townie defending himself. I am sorry. I will vote for Kavdragon instead for the reasons stated in my above overall analysis.
Youngminii tried to defend him, but it didn't work at all because the defense sucked and looked scummy in itself.
At this point, he's our best bet. He's been the center of discussion for a while, and looking through what everybody said about him once he flips will be quite useful, regardless of what he flips.
it's interesting how he doesn't have a confident read on three of the higher profile players in this game (Palmar, myself, Youngminii) I'm not sure what to make of that.
his vote on Kavdragon is bad. It accomplishes nothing and just spreads the vote out. There isn't much to discuss right now, it seems.
At this point, I'd be willing to force mafia to waste kp and/or roleblocking to get rid of him. Anybody else? It seems that we're forced into a situation similar to what Palmar suggested earlier...
Plan: Cops check sinani. DON'T CLAIM COP If he's scum, find another way to communicate it. Call his claim under scrutiny later, and analyze his posting to show that he's scum. Claim only if you think you're going to die.
We proceed to lynch OriginalName, for lurking and not posting content. He has joined all the major bandwagons and posted only his opinion of those players that he's voting for, basically just repeating what everybody else is saying.
On June 06 2011 09:34 Varpulis wrote: Plan: Cops check sinani. DON'T CLAIM COP If he's scum, find another way to communicate it. Call his claim under scrutiny later, and analyze his posting to show that he's scum. Claim only if you think you're going to die.
We proceed to lynch OriginalName, for lurking and not posting content. He has joined all the major bandwagons and posted only his opinion of those players that he's voting for, basically just repeating what everybody else is saying.
Thoughts?
Or hes bullshitting us to try to lynch someone else, its D1 just let it roll
Or your trying to save a scumbuddy in a last ditch effort.
On June 06 2011 09:34 Varpulis wrote: Plan: Cops check sinani. DON'T CLAIM COP If he's scum, find another way to communicate it. Call his claim under scrutiny later, and analyze his posting to show that he's scum. Claim only if you think you're going to die.
We proceed to lynch OriginalName, for lurking and not posting content. He has joined all the major bandwagons and posted only his opinion of those players that he's voting for, basically just repeating what everybody else is saying.
Thoughts?
Or hes bullshitting us to try to lynch someone else, its D1 just let it roll
Or your trying to save a scumbuddy in a last ditch effort.
EBWOP:
Claiming Vet is also a really dumb claim as the only way to figure it out is to actually kill him and I'm not bloody wasting a cop check on sinani if anyone should be checked its you and your pushy wishy-washy buttocks.
If you're scum then you played bad, if you're veteran your play has been abysmal. Why didn't you defend yourself with something that wasn't mindless discussion with stefftastiq, misplaced votes at inactives and one liner analysis. You are capable of much more as I saw in SNMMII where you posted full analysis of people after joining in the middle of the game, and your current place in the spotlight with everybody attacking you should have allowed you to do a lot better with your analysis.
Sorry if I'm getting a bit carried away but townies rolling over were the reason town lost in SNMMII and there's nothing anybody can do about it. You had your chance to defend yourself. My vote stands.
I like idea of a plan to switch votes from sinani206 though, it will never amount to anything but the idea will make for some discussion. I have a couple of people in mind, OriginalName being one of them, JeeJee being another.
OriginalName is pretty much guilty of the same thing as sinani206 but I think he has displayed pro-town behavior too and I'd like to keep him around for better reads.
JeeJee has not been talked about a lot. He threw an early vote at youngminii because youngmini didn't discard Palmar's plan as terrible. Then after that he's been acting like "phew, I'm glad that vote was over with" and he's pretty much just been taking random stabs at people. He only very weakly commented on this whole sinani206 thing but nothing beyond what appears to be popular opinion (more content, less lists). Overall he does post content and display pro-town behavior and I'd like to see him around for day2, even though I think his vote on youngminii was rash and he hasn't really done too much to get other people on board with it.
On June 06 2011 09:34 Varpulis wrote: Plan: Cops check sinani. DON'T CLAIM COP If he's scum, find another way to communicate it. Call his claim under scrutiny later, and analyze his posting to show that he's scum. Claim only if you think you're going to die.
We proceed to lynch OriginalName, for lurking and not posting content. He has joined all the major bandwagons and posted only his opinion of those players that he's voting for, basically just repeating what everybody else is saying.
Thoughts?
Probably the best idea so far.
I'm surprised you all bandwagon'd on Sinani though, the case against him really wasn't that strong. And if you think really, really carefully, you'll realise that my argument did make sense. He seriously just isn't playing like a scum at all.
Although if we are going to go for a policy lynch, I suggest Kav. He's the best candidate seeing as he's virtually only said "lynch lurkers" then disappeared.
By the way, when you say "seems like a last ditch effort to save himself", that's REALLY not a good argument. If he's vet then that's exactly what he should do, claim before he gets lynched. OriginalName falling apart in logic, but I don't know what to make of him so..
Kav or Palmar would be my best lynch candidates for today.
Guys if you won't listen to logic, can you at least listen to math? IF, IF Sinani is vet, then we will be losing a pretty big town power role. Honestly, do you really want to risk that instead of waiting one more day for a confirmation?
Most, if not all, of the mafia would definitely agree with the lynch on Sinani (assuming he is vet). Don't get caught up in the bandwagoning imo.
man if sinani ends up being scum i'm never gonna play mafia ever again
I stopped trying because I thought not enough people would be here for the lynch. Anyway. I'm just gonna vote for OriginalName ##Unvote ##Vote: OriginalName
On June 06 2011 10:28 youngminii wrote: Guys if you won't listen to logic, can you at least listen to math? IF, IF Sinani is vet, then we will be losing a pretty big town power role. Honestly, do you really want to risk that instead of waiting one more day for a confirmation?
Most, if not all, of the mafia would definitely agree with the lynch on Sinani (assuming he is vet). Don't get caught up in the bandwagoning imo.
man if sinani ends up being scum i'm never gonna play mafia ever again
Just saying, he was an aybsmal vet in the first place, what scum in his right mind would shoot him. A Vet who is not shot is just a vanilla townie. It's not a huge loss in the end.
If anyone's still there, I'm sorry for not posting since 9:00 KST because I had a piano lesson. I brought this upon myself. If you are there, please switch your votes.
On June 06 2011 10:28 youngminii wrote: Guys if you won't listen to logic, can you at least listen to math? IF, IF Sinani is vet, then we will be losing a pretty big town power role. Honestly, do you really want to risk that instead of waiting one more day for a confirmation?
Most, if not all, of the mafia would definitely agree with the lynch on Sinani (assuming he is vet). Don't get caught up in the bandwagoning imo.
man if sinani ends up being scum i'm never gonna play mafia ever again
Just saying, he was an aybsmal vet in the first place, what scum in his right mind would shoot him. A Vet who is not shot is just a vanilla townie. It's not a huge loss in the end.
You're all on my huge FoS list if Sinani flips non-red. I can't think of any reason why you all have such a strong opinion about lynching him. His actions are very non-scummy. If he had mafia friends I'd assume they'd try to change discussion to something else other than lynching him. Basically makes half the players <.<
Also, Varpulis jumping around with his voting pattern, basically accusing everyone. Don't know what to make of that, just noting it.
As for my vote, I'm basically defending Sinani now and I agree with Varpulis' plan. Also:
Just saying, he was an aybsmal townie in the first place. It's not a huge loss in the end.
Town should never rely on blues like that. What is this confirmation we can get on day2 that you are talking about?
And if we were going to lynch somebody else who would you suggest? Kavdragon and Palmar? And why do you think they would be better lynches?
But yea I'm also beginning to have doubts about sinani206's scummyness but I don't see anybody else with a strong case against them and with so little potential for doing something good for town on day2.
Right so, First off I've not had a connection for the past day, so let me run through a few responses. (I'm writing this offline, so pardon the lack of actual quotes.)
The discussion today went well imo. There was pressure, people who weren't posting started, and the people that I felt were scumiest from early in the day got looked at. (sinani for posting completely out of place post count lists.)
I know this is a bit late in the day, but let me make my opinions on the day 1 lynch clear: Lynching a lurker day 1 is good. This is why: First, it pressures people to stop lurking. We we only "pressure" without actually being willing to lynch, then the pressure is a facade, and people can safely lurk all they want. Second, lurkers cannot be analysed later because there will be little to no information that we can use to analyse them by.
Beyond that, we have several newer players in this game, and as is well known new scum players tend to lurk. (Not every new scum player, but the majority). This means that are more likly to find a player amongst the lurkers than we are amongst the more vocal people in the town. For this reason, untill we are able to look at more information (i.e. day 2) I suggest we lynch a lurker.
Now, I think that I need to clarify what I mean by a lurker: A lurker is someone who is not posting much, but more importantly is someone who is putting very little content in thier posts. (Content being original ideas, opinions, and reads)
Simply lynching the person who is the most inactive as a policy lynch isn't a great idea, i agree. However, there's no way that the town would ever simply pick the most inactive person so I think that your dissagreement is misplaced. There is a group of inactive players atm, and out of that group we should pick the scumiest. Should we be gunning for sucm? Absolutely, but we have to think ahead also. Day 1 lynch is natoriously hard to get right, so let's do two things to make sure we come out on top at the end of it: 1 If it's we lynch a townie, then let's make sure it's one of the useless townies. If we aren't too sure who is scum, let's shoot into the group that statistically will have a higher percentage of scum in it: Lurkers.
Keeping all that in mind, we scum hunt as usual, but we keep the spotlight on that group. I'm not saying that we shouldn't pressure people, we shouldn't discuss, we shouldn't hunt. We should do all of those things. But at the end of the day, we play it safe and lynch someone who is not contributing, and soneone who will be hard to analyse later. All in all it's the best choice to make unless someone makes a big scum slip.
Discuss who is scummy. Pressure people. Lynch a lurker. They are not mutually exclusive.
I don´t know what good a designated town leader/coordinator does in a game without PMs. Since everything he says is in the open, he cannot coordinate night actions without letting the scum know it. That leaves analysis and scumhunting, for which we don´t need a leader. Actually a single, declared leader is detrimental, as it can devolve into "follow the leader" and scum sucking up to him.
This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier. A leader does us no good in this game. It only puts a bigger target on our most valuable player. If we all contribute then it doesn't matter who dies, the rest of the town caries on. If we leave it up to a few leaders the mafia can snipe them and then roflstomp the rest of the inactive town. In anycase, I think the point has been made, and it's up to the vet to decide to do the right thing and remain annonomous.
------------------------- Reading up now, will respond to current events (the vet claim)
So I'll be honest here. I saw giant bandwagon on a player who had no one really defending them. That is a town tell for me. Don't get me wrong, I think that sinari looks scummy, but that big of a landslide of votes is not going to happen to a mafia player.
So I was going to press for Original Name, becaues he was lurking back and not posting much other than defence.
This claim (which sinani's been painfully obviously hinting at for the since he asked if a vet could be lynched) is changing things. If I were mafia, and I was about to be lynched, I would 100% claim vet. It's not confirmable unless you are shot, and obviously the mafia isn't going to shoot their own member. After they claim vet they have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game "Because the mafia know that I am a vet".
In short, the vet claim makes me think more than anything that Sinani is scum. I think I think that the vet claim is a last ditch attempt to save their own, and by the looks of it it's going pretty well.
To clarify, I've thought that sinani is scum since he posted the post count list. (Very slight suspicion then, but it has grown since into a full on scum read.) The only thing that made me think that sinani might not be scum was the fact that there was no defending/claim coming out.
Since there has been a vet claim, and people are defending him, that reason is void, and I am left with a strong scum read.
Town should never rely on blues like that. What is this confirmation we can get on day2 that you are talking about?
And if we were going to lynch somebody else who would you suggest? Kavdragon and Palmar? And why do you think they would be better lynches?
But yea I'm also beginning to have doubts about sinani206's scummyness but I don't see anybody else with a strong case against them and with so little potential for doing something good for town on day2.
Okay, we are not relying on blues, this must be a misconception of yours. Relying on blues is more like when a cop claims and we rely on the doctor to repeatedly save the cop and hope that there's no roleblocker and that the mafia don't snipe the doctor. Withholding a lynch against someone who claimed vet so that we're sure we don't snipe a blue is definitely, NOT, relying on a blue. I didn't actually say we could confirm that he was a vet, but I suppose a cop could do it. My line of reasoning is that there's no reason to lynch him now when we can lynch him later if he continues to be scummy.
Kavdragon has (had) very little posts with content. Basically he said let's lynch lurkers and then didn't post. I've already had a case on Palmar.
As for YOU, you've literally gone and sheeped along with the sinani case I can only see this as a way to absolve your sins once (if) sinani does flip non-red.
okay, I caught up with the thread now (dat MLG), I don't know if I have time to convince others but
re: the big issue which is the vet claim
On June 06 2011 04:43 sinani206 wrote: Does a lynch kill a veteran
a little random, don't you think? a soft-claim perhaps? non-convincing BUT
On June 06 2011 07:02 sinani206 wrote: I don't understand why everyone is voting for me. I've tried my hardest. Let's actually lynch a mafia and then vigilante can kill me if he wants. I also don't understand why everyone is unvoting steff. All he did was OMGUS vote me.
Emphasis mine. what an interesting idea for someone that's a vet, don't you think? auto-confirmed via vigi. I'm not convinced but if he were vet, his actions are explainable.
That said, day 1 is always a crapshoot, but these 2 things make lynching sinani very nervous endeavour for me and i'd rather stay on the safe side (nobody's voting minii anyway despite my arguments) and ##vote:OriginalName since that's the only other feasible target tonight
On June 06 2011 10:51 Kavdragon wrote: So I'll be honest here. I saw giant bandwagon on a player who had no one really defending them. That is a town tell for me. Don't get me wrong, I think that sinari looks scummy, but that big of a landslide of votes is not going to happen to a mafia player.
So I was going to press for Original Name, becaues he was lurking back and not posting much other than defence.
This claim (which sinani's been painfully obviously hinting at for the since he asked if a vet could be lynched) is changing things. If I were mafia, and I was about to be lynched, I would 100% claim vet. It's not confirmable unless you are shot, and obviously the mafia isn't going to shoot their own member. After they claim vet they have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game "Because the mafia know that I am a vet".
In short, the vet claim makes me think more than anything that Sinani is scum. I think I think that the vet claim is a last ditch attempt to save their own, and by the looks of it it's going pretty well.
##Unvote ##Vote Sinani
I ask one last time to reconsider. If you were mafia and you were about to be lynched, you would claim vet. If you were vet and you were about to be lynched, you would claim vet. It's a non-valid argument.
If you still feel strongly that Sinani is the scummiest, then I can't stop you.
Kavdragon, he is scummy, but the bandwagon came too easily. I agree with everything you said, but I reached a different conclusion. I'd rather lynch OriginalName at this point, but I guess we'll see.
the thing I find striking about "vigi can hit me if he wants" is that normally, claimers would say "cop can check me if he wants". unless of course you happen to have a second life.
The villagers had been up since early in the morning. Desperately they had argued and wrangled amongst themselves trying to find scum. With decision time fast approaching, a wooden gibbet was hastily erected in the town square and the mob looked desperately around for a likely target.
They settled on Sinani206. Despite his protests, he was hauled up onto a box and a noose tied around his neck. With the crowd screaming for blood the box was kicked away. His neck snapped and blue blood spilled to the ground.
The Mafia silently congratulated themselves. They were still heavily outnumbered but they had taken the first step. The villagers went to their beds disheartened, but they had to keep fighting. This wasn't over yet. Not by a long shot.
Sinani206 the Veteran has been lynched.
It is now Night 1! You have 24 hours to send in your night actions. Please send them to both myself and DropBear
sinani, you played pretty terribly, not for the reasons everyone else is saying (well kinda)
you should definitely have a bit more content in your posts, you made yourself a very, very easy target. you shouldn't EVER give up with a "whatever" attitude, you should be defending yourself to the end. your entire defence was mounted by me, and that's just unacceptable. you can't rely on having someone else risk their reputation to save you just because they think you're not scum. you have to mass appeal to everyone else.
in any case, this sucks. palmar and prplhz on huge fos because they (warning: theory) both tried to absolve themselves in the end, realising that they were about to lynch a vet and didn't want to have their hands covered in blood
Palmar, Mataza and some lurker (probably steff or unichan) are mafia. For the sake of being absolute, I'll choose steff. I hope to be at correct in at least 2/3 of these.
Note that prplhz actually started the vote on Sinani. In my opinion it is just a misguided townie post trying to think too hard about who a scum could be.
Palmar confuses me in that he played like a complete retard in the first few posts then straightened up. I'm guessing he uses this 'full retard' to accuse Mataza for absolutely no reason, knowing full well that nobody would actually support his lynch since it was completely unfounded. I'm thinking that they were just overeager when they both got mafia and made up some sort of gameplan and they included this at the start.
Palmar also basically accuses everyone but doesn't really act on anything, except voting me (lol) and then moving on to someone who already had a vote on him. I mean, most of his reasoning against voting Sinani was meta. He's been using meta over and over again in his accusations today. Palmar, if you are town, I sincerely implore you never to use meta ever again. It is an unreliable way of playing and should only be exercised in advanced levels. Trust me, from experience I know for a fact that meta does not work (unless you're a crazy veteran pro).
Palmar tries to absolve himself at the end by switching to OriginalName. Mataza is not online.
As for steff, all I can say is
@Sinani Yaah, OMGUS vote - well - you arent giving me something to work with - I am actually afraid that you are a townie being lynched for overacting and pointing to much fingers - but I still find you way to scummy to vote for someone else right now? just your behaviour to try to pin votes on me was a scummy kind of way to do it - its ok to say inactivity, but when that argument isnt valid anymore - you should really try to find something else that atleast might put me in a scummy light? or maybe change opinion and try to work out whats best for town and find someone who actually is scum. but you wont....
also what you bring to the thread is like its pointed out in originalnames post, pretty thin - and now that you are "in the chair" - it doesnt really look like you try to step it up to do something.
theres 4 hours untill the voting ends - and you say its like "OMGUS" vote for me to vote for you - im not just basing my vote on you because you are voting for me, theres the pattern of all your behaviour - and that is kind of my point
I'll be working on this theory over the next few days but for now take it with a grain of salt.
And right now I'm extremely uncomfortable with unichan/steff/jeejee's lurkerish activity. If they are mafia they're just skirting by under the radar.
Bleh, wish I'd gotten back earlier. Still, without knowing the future, I don't think sinani was that terrible of a choice given his list-oriented playstyle, and at least we got some solid discussion to look back on.
Shall we turn to discussing good prot and cop targets?
Intuitively I'd go with Varp or Palmar as I feel both have played very townie so far, and are also quite active. But from mafia's point of view, they may be 'too obvious' hits and they might go for secondary townie players that are perhaps less active but stir up discussion such as kavdragon or myself. In general from a doc perspective, I'd look for someone that's making good arguments, staying fairly active, and urging discussion along. Pick among those as you see fit, my 4 choices are up there.
Palmar, Mataza and some lurker (probably steff or unichan) are mafia. For the sake of being absolute, I'll choose steff. I hope to be at correct in at least 2/3 of these.
Note that prplhz actually started the vote on Sinani. In my opinion it is just a misguided townie post trying to think too hard about who a scum could be.
Palmar confuses me in that he played like a complete retard in the first few posts then straightened up. I'm guessing he uses this 'full retard' to accuse Mataza for absolutely no reason, knowing full well that nobody would actually support his lynch since it was completely unfounded. I'm thinking that they were just overeager when they both got mafia and made up some sort of gameplan and they included this at the start.
Palmar also basically accuses everyone but doesn't really act on anything, except voting me (lol) and then moving on to someone who already had a vote on him. I mean, most of his reasoning against voting Sinani was meta. He's been using meta over and over again in his accusations today. Palmar, if you are town, I sincerely implore you never to use meta ever again. It is an unreliable way of playing and should only be exercised in advanced levels. Trust me, from experience I know for a fact that meta does not work (unless you're a crazy veteran pro).
Palmar tries to absolve himself at the end by switching to OriginalName. Mataza is not online.
As for steff, all I can say is
@Sinani Yaah, OMGUS vote - well - you arent giving me something to work with - I am actually afraid that you are a townie being lynched for overacting and pointing to much fingers - but I still find you way to scummy to vote for someone else right now? just your behaviour to try to pin votes on me was a scummy kind of way to do it - its ok to say inactivity, but when that argument isnt valid anymore - you should really try to find something else that atleast might put me in a scummy light? or maybe change opinion and try to work out whats best for town and find someone who actually is scum. but you wont....
also what you bring to the thread is like its pointed out in originalnames post, pretty thin - and now that you are "in the chair" - it doesnt really look like you try to step it up to do something.
theres 4 hours untill the voting ends - and you say its like "OMGUS" vote for me to vote for you - im not just basing my vote on you because you are voting for me, theres the pattern of all your behaviour - and that is kind of my point
I'll be working on this theory over the next few days but for now take it with a grain of salt.
And right now I'm extremely uncomfortable with unichan/steff/jeejee's lurkerish activity. If they are mafia they're just skirting by under the radar.
Im actually liking that theory minus the first bit, i think its someone in plain sight rather than a lurker, someone who is really not being scrutinized at all and is currently flying well under the radar.
Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially:
Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured.
On June 06 2011 11:33 youngminii wrote: Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially:
Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured.
I actually like the following for cop checks:
Varpulis: Accuses damn near everyone. Palmer: Youngminii is probably on the right track here. Kavdragon: Purely because we really have jack on him right now.
On June 06 2011 11:33 youngminii wrote: Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially:
Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured.
It's a (surprisingly) good thought.
In general, at least the way I play cop, there's 2 things I look at 1) Someone that the town finds suspicious. I put you up as a cop check because I find you suspicious
2) The other good candidate is someone that's really active. It's pretty obvious that the most active people stir and lead discussion, and if they're mafia, it's very easy to lead the town astray. So someone like Palmar as you mentioned might be a good choice as well. This choice is inherently more risky of course, since mafia are also looking to kill off these people, so the cop might end up wasting their check, but it's a good approach nonetheless. I'd put this as a higher risk/reward option.
On June 06 2011 11:33 youngminii wrote: Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially:
Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured.
It's a (surprisingly) good thought.
In general, at least the way I play cop, there's 2 things I look at 1) Someone that the town finds suspicious. I put you up as a cop check because I find you suspicious
2) The other good candidate is someone that's really active. It's pretty obvious that the most active people stir and lead discussion, and if they're mafia, it's very easy to lead the town astray. So someone like Palmar as you mentioned might be a good choice as well. This choice is inherently more risky of course, since mafia are also looking to kill off these people, so the cop might end up wasting their check, but it's a good approach nonetheless. I'd put this as a higher risk/reward option.
Well I mean, if the town is coordinating the detective check, mafia is probably going to (OH GOD I'M GONNA MAKE WIFOM) kill the person we agree to check. I mean if they don't, they're just stupid.
In any case, I'm going to lean on the fact that I defended sinani from the start to remove any suspicions on me for now. I don't know exactly why you think I'm suspicious and I don't really want to know right now (in favour of other discussion) so try to look at the fact that I defended sinani, sinani flipped blue, and postpone your suspicion on me.
I think the general consensus is to check Palmar for now, hopefully it turns out to be eventful.
@OriginalName I think Mataza is pretty scummy and flying under the radar to be honest, no point in acting on this yet though.
sorry guys. Something came up, wasn't there for the last hour. Should've switched my vote, my bad. I'd welcome a cop checking me, as long as I'm not miller (fingers crossed).
There is a difference between accusations and pressure. I was pressuring pretty much everybody, and it was to spread out and sporadic to have any real effect. It's not that I accused everybody of scum. i accused plenty of people of playing poorly, but bad play != scum. Bad play should be rectified, hence all my pressure on players who were lurking/not making sense.
It sucks that sinani flipped town, but in a way it was a good thing. There was plenty of discussion about him, and I think it will be important to see who gave a lackluster "what they said" reason and joined the bandwagon.
I'm cool with accepting that youngminii is town for now. Cops should check me or Palmar, I'd say. I joined the bandwagon on Sinani then didn't change my vote (despite coming up with the plan to mass switch to ON, fail by me) and have been overly aggressive, and Palmar played terribly for half the day until we called him out for it.
I'm leaning town for Palmar, and I know that I'm town, but confirmation would be cool.
Mataza is another possible check, but lower priority.
On June 06 2011 12:11 Varpulis wrote: sorry guys. Something came up, wasn't there for the last hour. Should've switched my vote, my bad. I'd welcome a cop checking me, as long as I'm not miller (fingers crossed).
There is a difference between accusations and pressure. I was pressuring pretty much everybody, and it was to spread out and sporadic to have any real effect. It's not that I accused everybody of scum. i accused plenty of people of playing poorly, but bad play != scum. Bad play should be rectified, hence all my pressure on players who were lurking/not making sense.
It sucks that sinani flipped townvet, but in a way it was a good thing. There was plenty of discussion about him, and I think it will be important to see who gave a lackluster "what they said" reason and joined the bandwagon.
On June 06 2011 11:33 youngminii wrote: Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially:
Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured.
It's a (surprisingly) good thought.
In general, at least the way I play cop, there's 2 things I look at 1) Someone that the town finds suspicious. I put you up as a cop check because I find you suspicious
2) The other good candidate is someone that's really active. It's pretty obvious that the most active people stir and lead discussion, and if they're mafia, it's very easy to lead the town astray. So someone like Palmar as you mentioned might be a good choice as well. This choice is inherently more risky of course, since mafia are also looking to kill off these people, so the cop might end up wasting their check, but it's a good approach nonetheless. I'd put this as a higher risk/reward option.
Well I mean, if the town is coordinating the detective check, mafia is probably going to (OH GOD I'M GONNA MAKE WIFOM) kill the person we agree to check. I mean if they don't, they're just stupid.
In any case, I'm going to lean on the fact that I defended sinani from the start to remove any suspicions on me for now. I don't know exactly why you think I'm suspicious and I don't really want to know right now (in favour of other discussion) so try to look at the fact that I defended sinani, sinani flipped blue, and postpone your suspicion on me.
I think the general consensus is to check Palmar for now, hopefully it turns out to be eventful.
@OriginalName I think Mataza is pretty scummy and flying under the radar to be honest, no point in acting on this yet though.
Just to make sure -- we're not trying to nail down 100% what the cop should check. Just good targets that the cops should consider. Like a list, similar to the potential prot list. If everyone agrees that the cop should check, for example, Palmar, then it opens up a world of useless (imo) discussion, if Palmar doesn't die by morning -- like why didnt he die, mafia should've hit him because our cop checked him. do we not have a cop? is palmar mafia? is he now a guaranteed n2 target? and other nonsense.
Sorry if this covers anything that has already been said, I'm still working offline and posting when I get a brief connection
Right, so I know I didn't start the bandwagon on Sinani, but I certainly made sure that it stayed that way. I accept the responsibility for this mislynch as I feel like I was the person who stopped a possible rescue.
I accept the scrutiny that will come because of the mislynch, and will do my best to answer any questions you may have about my play. I'll start by responding to the general aditide towards my play which was summed up by YM: "he's virtually only said "lynch lurkers" then disappeared."
I was only here for the beginning of the day and I gave my opinions and advice on the two prevailing subjects: A Veteran claim (which I was against), and whether or not to lynch a lurker (which I was for). I already explained why I've been reletivly inactive, and as i mentioned then, I should be able to post more now.
Enough about me though.
Firstly I think that talking during the night is a GOOD thing and we should definetly utilize the time to our advantage.
Next: as I see it there are two main things that we need to discuss: The lynch, and night actions.
The Lynch
We need to look at who is implicated now that we know that Sinani has flipped town. This will not necesarilly be people who just voted for Sinani. Sucm want to lynch anyone who is not scum, so look for the people who sheeped behind other people's reasons, but tried to absolve themselfs right before the lynch. (Mafia want to lynch anyone but scum, but they don't want to be caught doing it.)
In Insane PYP Ace was scum and did a really good job of pushing my lynch, but he never actually voted me, and right at the end he called people voting for me "scummy". He distanced himself from the lynch, and did it so well that when i flipped town, nobody thought that he was the one responsible, even though he was the instigator, and to a great extent pushed the lynch forwards. Look for that people distancing themselves from the lynch.
Night Actions
Detective: The general policy for detectives is to look at inactive players because they are the hardest to analyse later in the game. If you have a hunch, go for it. Part of the power of the detective is that they can look at people who otherwise wouldn't get looked at. I think that people should post lists of who they think should be DT checked, but obviously the decision should be, and is, up to the detective. + Show Spoiler [My DT List] +
Unichan (hasn't said much) OriginalName (He was(is) a lurker, and this gives us a lot more information on the lynch.)
Medic: Figure out who you think the mafia are most likly to hit, and protect them. Obviously you can't know for sure, but generally picking people who are vocal and obviously pro-town is a good pick. Experianced players are another good way to go. + Show Spoiler [MyMedicList] +
dementrio (He's new but his aditude gives me a town read. I hope he keeps it up.) Youngmini (I have a null read on him, but he's an experianced player and worth saving)
Vigilante At this point i don't think we have strong cases against anyone and reads are pretty weak at this point. Even if you could shoot, I wouldn't. Save it for someone you are sure about, but is unlikely to get lynched.
If you are medic, there is almost never a reason to claim. So don't. Don't breadcrumb it, don't hint at it. Mafia are MUCH more likely to pick up on those things.
If you are a cop, don't claim if you get scum. Breadcrumb that person. For instance, if you check OriginalName and he's sucm, don't say "I"M A COP, ON IS SCUM!!!!!". Vote him, pressure him, make him a center point of your accusations. Not necessarily tunneling, but make sure that the scum is being accused by you.
Vig: No need to claim before hand, and the town will likely discuss and decide whether you should claim following your shot.
Also, I forgot to mention this before, but we must work under the assumption that we have no blue roles. This should go without saying but i see people making plans that revolve around someone being checked, and then medic'd.
I just want people to be checked to find out if they're scum, but I understand your point about assuming no blue roles. I have no qualms about your DT list although I'd prefer palmar and of course I have to agree with your doctor list ^_^
The Lynch
We need to look at who is implicated now that we know that Sinani has flipped town. This will not necesarilly be people who just voted for Sinani. Sucm want to lynch anyone who is not scum, so look for the people who sheeped behind other people's reasons, but tried to absolve themselfs right before the lynch. (Mafia want to lynch anyone but scum, but they don't want to be caught doing it.)
lol, this is exactly what I've been accusing palmar of since night post.
Last person I wanna talk about is sinani206. He has contributed almost absolutely nothing to this game. He created a damn list of post-counts, and he's updating us with vote-counts. This is the lamest excuse for activity I have ever seen. My previous attitude of randomly calling out people for lynching was even more useful than those damn lists.
I'm not going to include his lists in this.
On June 04 2011 12:48 sinani206 wrote: Yes I completely agree, but if we don't have any outstandingly scummy players there is no point in choosing the scummiest player (who might not be very scummy at all) over a player with one post and an unexplained vote.
Wanting to lynch inactive players is a terrible way to play day 1. Wanting to push inactive or useless people, like has been done to me and stefftastiq is a good way to play. You never want to end up lynching the inactive, cause it's almost guaranteed that you'll end up killing a bored townie.
The end vote should much rather go to someone who is actively lurking, but not contributing. Do you know who I'm talking about?
On June 04 2011 13:58 sinani206 wrote: Varpulis, why did you change your mind so quickly after Hesmyrr posted?
On June 04 2011 21:49 stefftastiq wrote: I'm awake! - imba Daypost! Day1 always seem to be a bit random - Cant say I have any excellent ideas of finding the scum - but I noted down what I thought while reading up :D
@ace @kevdragon @palmar
some internal joke about caprio I didnt get? why the lynch ?
@Mataza
Interesting that you now this game change strategies for entering the game - both of your last beginnings has been quite 'active' :D
@sinani I see you name me in your not posted anything yet thread - I posted just before the game started that I was going to sleep.
altho, is a list like this commonly made to lead attention away from 'yourself' ? since ofcourse you never would be named in the list
He only responds to people and does not contribute to the discussion at all. He talks about some joke that obviously does not have to do with the current game, and then asks me and Mataza some silly questions. There had not been too much wrong with Mataza's play at this point in time, so I don't see why he begins metagaming with his first post. His question toward me was particularly pointless, because I specifically stated that it was a list of players who had not posted since the Day 1 post. I obviously could not name myself in the list because by posting the list I myself would be posting. Silly filler questions to help his active lurking regimen.
##Vote stefftastiq
I don't really understand your motives here. You are much more of an active lurker than Stefftastiq, and you actually have a good history of being useful as town, so I'm very suspicious of you. Stefftastiq's meta suggests that he's very careful even when he's town, so while that doesn't clear him by any stretch of the imagination, it certainly pushes my suspicion rather towards you, seeing I know you're capable of very strong town play.
And that's it. Sinani206 pointed out that he has a lot of posts, as that would somehow absolve him of suspicion, but it's just bullshit. He's posting a ton, pushing for lynch on people that don't post, but nothing he's posting has any content at all.
I don't think he would've changed his posting habits if someone hadn't pushed him hard like I'm doing now. We will probably get a "useful" post from him in wake of this. Let's see just how useful it is.
##Unvote Youngminii ##Vote Sinani206
Roundabout meta reasoning, voted after prplhz had already voted for sinani and
On June 06 2011 10:43 Palmar wrote: I think sinani's death would've been too quiet.
##Unvote ##Vote OriginalName
Literally no reason, just switches. Lynching sinani gives PLENTY of information while lynching ON doesn't and palmar's been going on about how "this will give us plenty of information" etc the entire game.
There was also prplhz who started expressing doubts about lynching sinani towards the end but he doesn't seem as scummy as the palmar/mataza duo.
On June 06 2011 14:04 youngminii wrote: lol, this is exactly what I've been accusing palmar of since night post.
Heh, and people already started discussing night actions + lists. This is what i get for not being up to date on the thread.
Oh, and I'd like to update my DT list to include Varpulis at the top. He's pretty far up on my scumdar now, and I'll get around to an analysis tomorrow. (hopefully before the night is over, in case I die).
On June 06 2011 11:33 youngminii wrote: Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially:
Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured.
You see, either the bad town player is you, or you're scum.
I did my switch sufficiently early that Kavdragon and Varpulis could've swung the vote. That is exactly what I was hoping would happen. I generally am against killing people that roleclaim day 1, because even if that might potentially save mafia, then they're forced into lying, and lying always invites the opportunity to slip. We could confirm him in so many ways tonight, cop check, vigi shot etc.
I think killing him was the right thing to do, up until he claimed Veteran. It's very easy for the mafia sway a vote in the wrong direction on day one, so I figured that the Sinani train came way too easily, that coupled with his vet claim made me switch.
I still don't know where I stand on the Mataza issue, I have a hard time reading that guy.
Remember that while my switch to ON could be seen as a way of distancing myself from the vote, this post by Kavdragon does basically the same thing for him.
On June 06 2011 10:51 Kavdragon wrote: So I'll be honest here. I saw giant bandwagon on a player who had no one really defending them. That is a town tell for me. Don't get me wrong, I think that sinari looks scummy, but that big of a landslide of votes is not going to happen to a mafia player.
So I was going to press for Original Name, becaues he was lurking back and not posting much other than defence.
This claim (which sinani's been painfully obviously hinting at for the since he asked if a vet could be lynched) is changing things. If I were mafia, and I was about to be lynched, I would 100% claim vet. It's not confirmable unless you are shot, and obviously the mafia isn't going to shoot their own member. After they claim vet they have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game "Because the mafia know that I am a vet".
In short, the vet claim makes me think more than anything that Sinani is scum. I think I think that the vet claim is a last ditch attempt to save their own, and by the looks of it it's going pretty well.
##Unvote ##Vote Sinani
JeeJee correctly pointed out that Sinani had soft-claimed vet already through his question to GMarshal.
At the moment I feel JeeJee is pro-town.
I guess we will see if we have any information come day-break. This'll be interesting.
@sinani sorry man, that was kinda what I was afraid of - but you were suspicious of others of not being super-active while you basicly just avoided being inactive yourself by posting a bit obvious stuff! shit happends
now about youngminii
In any case, I'm going to lean on the fact that I defended sinani from the start to remove any suspicions on me for now. I don't know exactly why you think I'm suspicious and I don't really want to know right now (in favour of other discussion) so try to look at the fact that I defended sinani, sinani flipped blue, and postpone your suspicion on me.
this is suspicious, isnt it? - i mean you can really not trust -anybody- until you for sure know someones role
you could a) blindly hoped that he would turn green / blue and hope everything turns out ok.
b) be scum - and KNOW that he is non-scum - defend him beforehand to hope it clears your suspicion afterwards..
this would probably not be as scummy if you didnt post that post stating that town really should clear the suspicion on you - which you did..
if other town are uncertain of me - do a check on me - i have no problem with that, but i would hope it would be spent more visely on someone more suspicious - i would suggest maybe youngminiii or jeejee or perphaps palmar (he got me pretty bad in minimafia2) :-p
I take that as an insult since Palmar playing like shit and accusing on meta while I try my best to ignore him is a RETARDED PLAN! I could understand it if we were actually having a ridiculous discussion with each other, but right now i just think that Palmar is not as good as he thinks he is. He is receiving much flak in PTP right now for his scum reads he enforces with bullets instead of analysis.
And again I am too late and only the second to write about it, but youngminii hasn´t really stood out day1 until he defended Sinani. I wasn´t online because lynch is 2 hours after midnight for me. Defending a Vet claim is nothing huge and it is even easier when you are scum. By the way, that is a sometimes overlooked scumtell. Scum can and often will defend someone with absolute certainty. That is, because they know for sure he is not scum, unlike everyone else.
My opinions at this point: Palmar I´m split about him. I´m leaning towards town though as idiocy and confidence in stupid stuff can come from not knowing anything for certain. Doesn´t mean much though.
youngminii Like I said up there, It´s easy for scum to defend a mislynched guy on the slightest provocation. It´s the equivalent of a bus, only that you don´t have to lose a member of scumteam for it. Also me cooperating with Palmar to do what we(he) did is about the most retarded thing I ever heard. Assuming everyone else is dumb is what I do, too, but not to that extent.
OriginalName I nearly put him here as red, but I rewatched all his posts and I am probably just angry at him. Seems quite reasonable actually, but he decided to provoke me for the explanation on my behavior(which other people wanted to see from me iirc) Maybe he hoped I would slip scumtells if I get angry, but that in itself is a nulltell
Prplhz Yep, that´s what I call. It´s my third game with him and in everyone he has been dubious and got lynched as townie. Some people are just scummy when they try to help town. He has to seriously play better though. Being innocent doesn´t make him right though.
[/green]Varpulis[green] This guy is playing quite well right now. He really tried earlier to pressure people into posting better. In general his posts look quite helpful. 2 gripes though: 1. His working assumption seems to be everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I prefer it the other way around, be especially suspicious of people who say you´re right. 2. His vote landed on Sinani in the end.
Jeejee This guy looks very pro town. Actually quite too pro town to be true. On second sighting, quite a bit of his content is nondangerous to scum and some is simple explaining. His posts are clean cut, it feels almost slippery. If he is as pro town as he looks, he should post more and voice more opinions on other players.
Kavdragon This guy is known for getting lynched day1. As, I think it was Ace, stated, it´s a sign that he does something wrong on a regular basis. Not to say I don´t do either, but Kav has a reputation for it while I am getting one right now. No read really.
Hesmyrr/Dementrio Hesmyrr was definitely a good player, but a good player isn´t automatically town. His big bad analysis wasn´t all that great on second thought. He goes by classic scumtells, treats me as if I didn´t know about Kavdragons reputation and the inside joke that he usually gets lynched. With classic scumtells I mean his vote on Prplhz. He equals below average player = scum. Wouldn´t it be for that, I´d say he is town. Dementrio didn´t say anything besides hello yet, probably because he doesn´t want to destroy the image of Hesmyrr as town.
If I forgot someone, my bad. Just don´t trust someone because he is good with words. Trust them because what they mean to say is actually right.
You have been drunk for about a day and while I think there are the right thoughts in your posts, you don´t put them forward enough. Though you have quite a few posts, you didn´t really get much substance in there. You need to accuse like you mean it. On meta this would make you innocent, but also rather useless. Townies shouldn´t try to hide ever. Actually, when I see you play I just want to help you. Leaning towards town.
First of all people should stop saying "Cop check me!!!". You don't want a cop to waste a check on a townie and they cannot confirm you anyway. Cops really need to play their own game and we can't rely on them and we should not discuss them too much. It's a pretty delicate role that requires you to gain and possess a lot of information without disclosing it until the last moment and they don't need people confusing them. If you absolutely have to say something then post a simple list of names. I like the idea of cop checking people who are inactive 'cause we can't get a read on them otherwise but I am sure that there are scum to find among more active players as well.
Varpulis You need to focus your pressure because you are too much all over the place for it to have an impact right now, and it makes reading you really hard. Instead of jumping from inactive to inactive, pick one and go for it.
Kavdragon Get internets. As you probably know, right now you're a great asset for town but it bugs me that it's a bit hard to get a read on you because of your posting pattern.
Mataza Stop being paranoid and arguing with meta. Read the game, find a scum, make him break.
unichan, dementrio, stefftastiq You really need to do something too. Three lurkers/inactives are just too much. I think unichan and stefftastiq are trying but dementrio seems weirdly absent. He had a single post with some decent content but your level of activity is just not high enough. unichan and stefftastiq both need to put more effort into their posts.
Right now I am getting some townie reads and some scum reads, but it's still very much up in the air. I really wish that town had organized their votes and put up a serious candidate for lynching besides sinani206 because this bandwagon didn't provide nearly enough information as I'd have liked. This cannot happen again.
Interesting. After reading through Varpulis's posts, he is no longer on my scumdar. Actually, I'd suggest him for a medic protect. He struck me as scum early on because he was very wishy washy with his opinions in regard to lynching lurkers, but I think that he was that way for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. (It's still bad to be so inconsistent, but you are presenting the right points for both sides)
Since then his posting has shown a fairly clear agenda that is pro-town. I'd write up an analysis on why he is town, but I don't think we are going to be lynching him anytime soon, and I think my time would be better spent on scum.
Youngmiini put up a light defense for sinani when he came out as the clear bandwagon. He could have done this both as scum or town. The claim though changed things; the mafia could choose between pushing for a very easy blue lynch from the get-go or risking to have him survive and potentially having a confirmed and hard to kill citizen on the loose. The opportunity in my opinion is too great to risk it by having every scum to vote for someone else.
If Youngmiini is scum, he could concievably have decided to step up the defense, for the sake of coherence and using it to clear his name afterwards, but the other 2 votes would probably be locked on sinani. This would clear palmar and jeejee.
If Youngmiini is town, scum could swing votes more freely; but I find it unlikely that the only ones to decide to switch would be scum. This to me means at least one between palmar and jeejee is town, and this in turn makes both of them less likely to be scum.
My conclusion is that palmar and jeejee are >rand town. I have no clear idea what the best detective/doctor strategy is but I'd guess this makes them good doctor targets and bad detective peeks. I personally would like to have youngmiini peeked because I think he plays a pivotal role now and I really can't make up my mind on him.
This is all I can get from this lynch. As for "hunches", Varpulis is the only one who clearly transmits town vibes to me right now, in the way he acts in general and in particular how he reacted to the claim. Kavdragon is also being very helpful as a sort of town strategy guru but I'll wait until he puts his preaching into practice.
prplhz,
Varpulis You need to focus your pressure because you are too much all over the place for it to have an impact right now, and it makes reading you really hard. Instead of jumping from inactive to inactive, pick one and go for it.
Kavdragon Get internets. As you probably know, right now you're a great asset for town but it bugs me that it's a bit hard to get a read on you because of your posting pattern.
Mataza Stop being paranoid and arguing with meta. Read the game, find a scum, make him break.
unichan, dementrio, stefftastiq You really need to do something too. Three lurkers/inactives are just too much. I think unichan and stefftastiq are trying but dementrio seems weirdly absent. He had a single post with some decent content but your level of activity is just not high enough. unichan and stefftastiq both need to put more effort into their posts.
I read you scum. You carefully avoided everyone who is under the shitstorm right now and picked every target you could criticize without actually giving a read. We know the lynch has not solved this game yet, you could try to tell us however little you could make of it before pointing out who else has not talked yet.
I kinda just wanted people to talk and I think these are the hardest to get reads on with their current level/manner of activity. I'll post something more analytical day2. I'm glad to see you're up to two posts now, keep 'em coming.
Yeah - i know I should step up my game - but I find it really hard to draw hard conclusions from the stuff which has been posted - the ones who actually post something seems to be kinda townish - and the ones who doesnt are ofc hard to read - but Mataza might be right thats its maybe better to "accuse like i mean it" - and in that way bring more activity on the players which are hardly contributing (and i kinda know that im in that situation myself :-p)
As worried as I am by the lurkers, I'm getting a huge town vibe from dementrio. In fact, he's probably the most townlike so far. I also haven't seen varpulis act scummy in any way. I mean he was swinging his votes on a bunch of people for pressure but to me that just looks like a very eager townie trying to catch scum. Which isn't a bad thing in any way.
Mataza. I already said not to take my conspiracy theory seriously yet, but you do seem just about as odd as palmar. You pounce on him the moment he uses meta against you, yet you use meta against steff. It's not a huge thing but it does strike me as a little odd, I've already said you shouldn't use meta because it'll end up confusing you more than it'll help. I could see an alliance between you and steff but it might just be me wanting it to be there (if you know what I mean), surely you wouldn't make it that obvious if you and steff really were scum.
As for palmar, after my refreshing sleep (I haven't slept properly since MLG) I'm going to back off him a little. I still think he'd make a great check but after reading his posts again, I can see him as some sort of deluded townie, almost like a real village idiot and nothing more. Of course, this doesn't completely drop him off my scumdar but my focus is set on mataza now.
The only 2 posts mataza has made since the night post are both wishy washy. He basically says everyone in his post is either town or undecided. The only person he really does accuse is me, which is a clear OMGUS vote that would be safe for scum to make. It seems as if he's just an over-secure scum that wants to make sure he's not ringing the wrong bells but wants to get rid of opposition. I'm getting pretty huge scum vibes from this guy.
So my DT checklist would be mataza then palmar. If you want to check me that's okay too but I think checking varpulis or kavdragon would be a waste since they really don't seem scummy at all.
Ya, OMGUS is a nice word indeed^^ According to that logic you just have to accuse everyone and see who accuses back, Tada scum!
My meta on Steff is that he looks really helpless. It doesn´t make him town.
I thought about putting Hesmyrr and OriginalName in red. But I really wanted to put them one suspicion category lower than you. You were dodgy as hell, and even said "I defended Sinani, he flipped blue, therefore I must be green" We all know that it made you look better. So why do you try to rub it in?
Addendum: Looks a lot like a preemptive defense to me. "Before you ever question me, remember I tried to rescue that one guy" Sinani didn´t get 3 posts together without a votelist or playerlist. Just because he flipped blue, it doesn´t mean anything. We made a mistake, but we did it (mostly) for the right reasons.
Tl;dr Hindsight is a bitch, but you´re not as confirmed as you think
On June 07 2011 07:24 Mataza wrote: Ya, OMGUS is a nice word indeed^^ According to that logic you just have to accuse everyone and see who accuses back, Tada scum!
My meta on Steff is that he looks really helpless. It doesn´t make him town.
I thought about putting Hesmyrr and OriginalName in red. But I really wanted to put them one suspicion category lower than you. You were dodgy as hell, and even said "I defended Sinani, he flipped blue, therefore I must be green" We all know that it made you look better. So why do you try to rub it in?
Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the word meta. ESPECIALLY when you clearly dont know what it means AT ALL.
On June 07 2011 07:29 Mataza wrote: Addendum: Looks a lot like a preemptive defense to me. "Before you ever question me, remember I tried to rescue that one guy" Sinani didn´t get 3 posts together without a votelist or playerlist. Just because he flipped blue, it doesn´t mean anything. We made a mistake, but we did it (mostly) for the right reasons.
Tl;dr Hindsight is a bitch, but you´re not as confirmed as you think
No one is cleared for going against the sinani lynch. YM is looking town because of what he is doing in the aftermath. Honestly I though he was a little scummy looking before the lynch, but after he's looking much more helpful.
You haven't done much to help the town at this point, and tunneling YM is useless to us right now.
On June 07 2011 07:50 Mataza wrote: Meta as in short for meta behavior read. What´s your problem with shortening that?
No, its short for Metagaming which represents their behaviour across all the games (or an amount of games) across a period of time and comparing it to how they act now.
On June 07 2011 07:50 Mataza wrote: Meta as in short for meta behavior read. What´s your problem with shortening that?
No, its short for Metagaming which represents their behaviour across all the games (or an amount of games) across a period of time and comparing it to how they act now.
You read their behavior in comparison to their previous games.
@Kavdragon I don´t exactly see how youngminii has shown his greenitude after the lynch.
He tells Sinani what he did wrong(easy)
Tells others to not FoS him because he defended Sinani
State he suspects Palmar and Prplhz
Only 20 minutes late it´s Palmar and Mataza, he dropped Prplhz entirely
Explains a bit common knowledge, like how to discuss cop targets
Aside from that he was pursuing Palmar, who made himself a really easy target by saying Mataza is scum for half a day.
And now I am suddenly the most obvious scum.
If I knew I get town cred by telling people what happens if we discuss cop and doc targets for the night, hell I would be all over that.
For example: Docs, don´t protect me as scum will consider me an easy lynch tomorrow. Also Palmar and Prplhz are probably considered easy lynches, don´t protect them either.
Cops, check people who have been very hard to read so far, like Kavdragon, Stefftastic, unichan and OriginalName.
Do I deserve town cred for this? How about if Youngminii would do this?
I think youngminiii is the obvious scum - but he has a few scummy friends.
my guess is that atleast one of them are fairly active i.e. one of the guys posting a lot of derailing posts which confuse people -> palmar or mataza?
also i would guess theres one of the other more silent players which just stays in the back trying not to draw to much attention and "blend in" with the inactive townies - thats the one we have to get attention to, jeejee, unichan, kavdragon ?
You're all on my huge FoS list if Sinani flips non-red. I can't think of any reason why you all have such a strong opinion about lynching him. His actions are very non-scummy. If he had mafia friends I'd assume they'd try to change discussion to something else other than lynching him. Basically makes half the players <.<
Also, Varpulis jumping around with his voting pattern, basically accusing everyone. Don't know what to make of that, just noting it.
As for my vote, I'm basically defending Sinani now and I agree with Varpulis' plan. Also:
Just saying, he was an aybsmal townie in the first place. It's not a huge loss in the end.
##Vote OriginalName
@youngminii you obviously copied this votelist from GM's post - but WHY did you remove unichans name from the vote list? he had a vote sinani as well - it it was not on the top of the list nor on the bottom.... so cant really blame it from a bad copy/paste or something.
I feel irish, cause I just found GOLD. (So much so that I'm going to forego my usual analysis formatting) Check this out: Sinani asks if vets can be lynched (something that was an obvious vet claim to me at the time) and three posts later, OriginalName posts this jem:
On June 06 2011 06:58 OriginalName wrote: ##Unvote Stephfftastiq - ok yeah im a hypocrite but thats life.
Im sorry if I didnt make it clear that I didnt like Mataza and Palmer that much, however since neither of them are likely to be lynched (and Palmer somewhat improving) I'd still like to point out that most of Mataza's posts are fairly useless and absurd fluff.
On a side note, using Meta to defend oneself is nearly pointless as you could theoreticaly came in with a much different playstyle to being with.
Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless rather then just somewhat so like others [spoiler][yes including myself -_-/spoiler].
While lists can organize data postcount really doesnt matter as you could have someone with 10 long content filled posts or, 20 short spam notes just flip flopping your vote around pressuring others while making you seem pro-town while you don't do much else.
I will go along with a Sinani lynch for now but I would like to consider elsewhere as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus, he also thinks practically everyone is scummy.
##Vote Sinani206
Look at this post: There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him. The last paragraph in particular is condeming. "I'll go along with it for now..." He says that he'll go along with is, but he says it really reluctantly. If you are reluctant to vote someone, why are you voting them!? "But I would like to consider somwhere else as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus" He even defends him, pointing out the two things that were wrong with the lynch, and procedes to vote him!.
This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that you look for afterwards. What he says in his post and what he proceds to vote are a COMPLETE CONTADICTION. He cannot say with conviction that Sinani is scum, because he knows that he is not his scum buddy!
Let's also look at who he pulled his vote off of in order to vote sinani: Steff. Up to this point he's said that mataza has been playing badly and at least insinuated that he was scum, along with palmer. However, he's never felt strongly enough to vote them. He voted Steff:
On June 06 2011 02:46 OriginalName wrote: At the Moment most of my opinions from yesterday still stand.
The only really new thing I have to bring to the table is i'm going to push stefftastiq harder as in anycase lynching lurkers now is better than having them at Lylo, and considering this is a mini game this is going to come much much sooner than we want. I highly suggest lynching him today unless he really steps up.
##Vote Stefftastiq
He says that "his opinion from yesterday still stands" implying that he though that steff was lynch worthy for the past two days. (one game day). The key thing here is that he "highly suggests lynching [steff] unless he really steps it up." Steff didn't step it up, yet he pulls his vote off of him ONE POST LATER, and reluctantly votes for Sinani. This makes no sense. He shows that he actually has very little conviction behind what he is saying, and is not conserned with who is lynched. Classic scum mentality.
Looking past the sinani vote, in all of his posts up to the lynch (when people are trying to push the lynch onto him) he never once denys peoples accusations, and instead of defending himself, he just pushes for sinani harder. That's not how townies play. Townies don't lynch other people just so that they stay alive. You look for someone else who looks like scum (steff)and push for that instead of the person you think we should not be focusing on (sinani). OriginalName has played enough games to know better than that.
Original Name is scum.
This is about as clear cut as it gets folks. OriginalName is the obvious choice for a day 2 lynch.
Lol Kav, taking 2 ends of a paragraph and they don´t fit wtf.
I meant that I am the most obvious according to youngminii,of course, and others. At least Varpulis and OriginalName said I am worth a cop check. It wasn´t on my list of Youngminiis actions, since it isn´t him alone that mentioned me in the "almost confirmed scum corner". I don´t see the problem here.
Oh, and I forgot to include that the one person that ON was pushing for to be lynched, Steff, is now on his town reads list, without any explanation as to why.
On June 06 2011 12:39 OriginalName wrote: Town: Steff
More evidence that he has no real opinions. This is one of my favorite ways to catch scum, because I've played scum, and I know how hard it is to avoid slips like this. It's really hard to think that someone is scum, because you know they are innocent. (I mean to really think that someone is scum. Anyone can say someone is scum, but it's really hard to make a convincing argument for them because you KNOW that they are innocent. because of this scum will often say one thing, then say the other because they have no real opinion, but they are forced to say something by the town. Then we cross reference it with thier previous reads, and if they have changed their minds (WITHOUT A REASON) Boom. Huge scum tell.
On June 07 2011 09:47 Mataza wrote: Lol Kav, taking 2 ends of a paragraph and they don´t fit wtf.
I meant that I am the most obvious according to youngminii,of course, and others. At least Varpulis and OriginalName said I am worth a cop check. It wasn´t on my list of Youngminiis actions, since it isn´t him alone that mentioned me in the "almost confirmed scum corner". I don´t see the problem here.
My bad then. You can see how I might have been confused seeing as that statement was in the paragraph directly below my name...
I'm sorry about jumping on the sinani bandwagon guys, that was bad of me. I read his soft vet claim as him trying to look like a vet so we would get off his back, that was hella noob of me to not even consider that he would be vet himself. I also fell for that meta post somewhere back that said he had generally been more helpful than this.
On June 07 2011 08:35 stefftastiq wrote: @youngminii while reading back I also see that you removed Varpulis name from the list - not suspicious of him either?
Varpulis + youngmini + unichan got a little thing going on ?
I don't see what I have to do with this, youngminii is on my suspicions list.
ATM I'm reading town as: JeeJee His posts have been generally helpful and safe. He's done a couple of mentor type posts which is more of a town-friendly thing to do rather than a scum thing to do. Scum's first instinct wouldn't be to help others out.
dementrio Hesmyrr's posts read town to me and dementrio has continued this trend.
Palmar He redeemed himself after a bout of shitty posting.
Kavdragon I'm leaning town with him now since he raised a good point about OriginalName
Scum: OriginalName For obvious reasons, Kavdragon made some good points. Also his earlier posts
OriginalName, read. I said EXAMPLE, because I wanted to explain how scumhunting works to someone who has no clue. I could have said Palmar dies and then I get suspicious. Seriously read plz.
You mad bro?
What kind of a bullshit response is that? He's been acting more and more scummy as his posts have went on.
Prphlz It looks like he was the first one to jump on sinani for posting useless fluff, and started the whole bandwagon.
???: Varpulis changed his vote many times yesterday without explanation. Jumped from lurker to lurker, and finally settled on sinani, not sure what this means.
youngminii I don't know what to think of this guy anymore. He had a couple of contradictions in his earlier posts which raised my suspicions but in the end he defended sinani. This could all be a guise though.
Sorry was busy moderating XL, didn't have time to write a long post in case I die. Kavdragon's post made a lot of sense to me. OriginalName was one of the lurkers that I pressured with a less than fantastic response. If i die tonight, lynch him.
The sun rose over the village, the terrified villagers walked out of their many huts and congregated, trying to find out who had been struck by tragedy that night. The result was obvious Mataza was no where to be found. The concerned villagers quickly made their way to his house, only to find his corpse, in several dozen pieces, scattered across the rooms of the house. Written in his blood was a message from the killer, it read "Tomorrow it could be you "
The townies gathered their strength and prepared for another hard fought day, things looked grim, but there was still hope.
Mataza, the Vanilla Townie has been murdered
It is now day 2! Vote for who is to be lynched, as usual you have 48 hours.
You're all on my huge FoS list if Sinani flips non-red. I can't think of any reason why you all have such a strong opinion about lynching him. His actions are very non-scummy. If he had mafia friends I'd assume they'd try to change discussion to something else other than lynching him. Basically makes half the players <.<
Also, Varpulis jumping around with his voting pattern, basically accusing everyone. Don't know what to make of that, just noting it.
As for my vote, I'm basically defending Sinani now and I agree with Varpulis' plan. Also:
Just saying, he was an aybsmal townie in the first place. It's not a huge loss in the end.
##Vote OriginalName
@youngminii you obviously copied this votelist from GM's post - but WHY did you remove unichans name from the vote list? he had a vote sinani as well - it it was not on the top of the list nor on the bottom.... so cant really blame it from a bad copy/paste or something.
Why werent you suspicious about unichan?
Actually the names were all the people that were voting Sinani.
I absolutely 100% support Kavdragon's post against OriginalName. Not only is his analysis spot on, the information that we get from lynching him is amazing. If he ends up flipping scum, then based on the votes from day 1, we can easily narrow down the remaining scum. In fact, if OriginalName ISN'T scum then all we have to do is step back and re-evaluate everyone. That sounds confusing but I'll explain.
At the end of Day 1, it had essentially become Sinani V OriginalName plus a few ragtag votes (almost all of which were by people under the radar) among other people. There were some people that switched from Sinani to ON that could be regarded scummy but that's for another discussion.
Right now we know that Sinani was town. In fact, the fact that he was a vet made him an extremely important target for the mafia to snipe during the day. As such, it leads me to believe that at least 2-3 people that had originally (before moving over to ON) voted for Sinani were indeed scum. As more and more townies jumped on the bandwagon, the scum felt relatively safe. Then an opposing bandwagon started on ON. If ON is scum, then the vote on Sinani became even more important, as Sinani was the only other option. If ON is scum, then everyone on the Sinani bandwagon becomes even more suspicious than they are now, to the point where they become lynchable/vigi targets (imo). This is actually the most likely scenario, since mataza/palmar are both on my scumdar and steff/prplhz are both pretty scummy too.
Now if ON is actually a townie, then this means that mafia didn't actually have to do anything really for Day 1. I mean, they COULD have started the Sinani bandwagon so it doesn't really clear them. But if ON is town, then why would the people that voted for ON have even bothered? Why would I go for ON if he's just going to end up town? The bottom line is that there is no reason for myself or anyone else that went for ON (originally) to risk ourselves when we have a perfectly valid Sinani lynch. If ON ends up townie, it most likely means that the people with ragtag votes on other people could very well be mafia just laughing as town kills each other. This is actually the most unlikely outcome, but it's still a possibility.
So basically, ON is almost definitely mafia, but if he's not we still gain a ton of valuable information.
So, Palmar, I guess you were wrong. If he were mafia I don't think they would choose to kill Mataza the townie because that would make suspicions against him too easy.
I'm 100% for a lynch on ON. Right now I'm really regretting that I didn't switch yesterday. I noted his bad posting at the end of day 1, after pressuring him while he was lurking.
On June 06 2011 09:34 Varpulis wrote: Plan: Cops check sinani. DON'T CLAIM COP If he's scum, find another way to communicate it. Call his claim under scrutiny later, and analyze his posting to show that he's scum. Claim only if you think you're going to die.
We proceed to lynch OriginalName, for lurking and not posting content. He has joined all the major bandwagons and posted only his opinion of those players that he's voting for, basically just repeating what everybody else is saying.
Thoughts?
Not much has occurred since then that could change my mind.
OriginalName, unichan and either prplhz/stefftastic. Again for the sake of being absolute, I'll go with prplhz. ON and unichan have completely avoided each other (not a single word uttered to or about each other). This is common between scum during the early game so as to not establish any connection between each other (ironic). They were both against Sinani and both without any good reason ie. pure bandwagoning.
Prplhz is a special case, he's the one that started the Sinani bandwagon. Now, scum don't usually start bandwagons since it usually attracts attention when the guy eventually flips green/blue, but I don't think he knew that it would become the actual lynch and that he was just making a few little accusations to appear active. Now I know you don't agree but the reasons against Sinani were ridiculous and should not have resulted in his lynch, but I do agree that his reaction to the pressure was sub-par. In any case, Prplhz realises that the lynch that he started is going to go through and does a last minute "I'm not sure about this vote.." dance, but never actually changes his vote since the only other lynch candidate is him scummate ON.
Grain of salt.
This also means that I'm completely backing off Palmar as I find his day 1 actions weird (not really scummy not really townie) considering Mataza is town. I think his vote switch from Sinani to ON might have been genuine.
The reason why I didn't say anything about ON early on was because I had nothing to say about him. I'm assuming he didn't mention me either because I only came up in discussions about inactive/useless posters. The only thing I noticed about him was that he supported a vet claim earlier + Show Spoiler +
I'm gonna echo Hesmyrr's request: explain ... what ton of information we get from vet claiming? It's a bad plan especially when roleblockers can block vet extra life, I can't possibly see what town would gain from vet-claim.
I think I can answer this instead of Palmer.
1. We get none, we have a free target for scum to avoid ASSUMING WE HAVE A VET.
2. Said "confirmed" townie could be scum trying to control us and avoid his lynch. We also could have no vet making counterclaiming irrelevant furthering his position.
3. It creates more Wifom (see 2)
4. Claiming in a closed setup unless about to be lynched is a pointless undertaking. We have no way of confirmed outside of death and a sane DT who could also be fakeclaiming.
which looked scummy to me, but I didn't actually start posting content and understanding why a vet claim would be stupid until later, and I didn't catch this until today when I was rereading the thread. To be honest I didn't understand the case against ON at all, the one vs sinani was 10x more clearcut (fluffy posts derp derp easy lynch), and made more sense to me at the time. So yes, it was bandwagoning, but that was because I didn't see any compelling reason to vote for anyone else.
You're all on my huge FoS list if Sinani flips non-red. I can't think of any reason why you all have such a strong opinion about lynching him. His actions are very non-scummy. If he had mafia friends I'd assume they'd try to change discussion to something else other than lynching him. Basically makes half the players <.<
Also, Varpulis jumping around with his voting pattern, basically accusing everyone. Don't know what to make of that, just noting it.
As for my vote, I'm basically defending Sinani now and I agree with Varpulis' plan. Also:
Just saying, he was an aybsmal townie in the first place. It's not a huge loss in the end.
##Vote OriginalName
@youngminii you obviously copied this votelist from GM's post - but WHY did you remove unichans name from the vote list? he had a vote sinani as well - it it was not on the top of the list nor on the bottom.... so cant really blame it from a bad copy/paste or something.
Why werent you suspicious about unichan?
Actually the names were all the people that were voting Sinani.
I absolutely 100% support Kavdragon's post against OriginalName. Not only is his analysis spot on, the information that we get from lynching him is amazing. If he ends up flipping scum, then based on the votes from day 1, we can easily narrow down the remaining scum. In fact, if OriginalName ISN'T scum then all we have to do is step back and re-evaluate everyone. That sounds confusing but I'll explain.
At the end of Day 1, it had essentially become Sinani V OriginalName plus a few ragtag votes (almost all of which were by people under the radar) among other people. There were some people that switched from Sinani to ON that could be regarded scummy but that's for another discussion.
Right now we know that Sinani was town. In fact, the fact that he was a vet made him an extremely important target for the mafia to snipe during the day. As such, it leads me to believe that at least 2-3 people that had originally (before moving over to ON) voted for Sinani were indeed scum. As more and more townies jumped on the bandwagon, the scum felt relatively safe. Then an opposing bandwagon started on ON. If ON is scum, then the vote on Sinani became even more important, as Sinani was the only other option. If ON is scum, then everyone on the Sinani bandwagon becomes even more suspicious than they are now, to the point where they become lynchable/vigi targets (imo). This is actually the most likely scenario, since mataza/palmar are both on my scumdar and steff/prplhz are both pretty scummy too.
Now if ON is actually a townie, then this means that mafia didn't actually have to do anything really for Day 1. I mean, they COULD have started the Sinani bandwagon so it doesn't really clear them. But if ON is town, then why would the people that voted for ON have even bothered? Why would I go for ON if he's just going to end up town? The bottom line is that there is no reason for myself or anyone else that went for ON (originally) to risk ourselves when we have a perfectly valid Sinani lynch. If ON ends up townie, it most likely means that the people with ragtag votes on other people could very well be mafia just laughing as town kills each other. This is actually the most unlikely outcome, but it's still a possibility.
So basically, ON is almost definitely mafia, but if he's not we still gain a ton of valuable information.
So what your saying is info lynch a scummy town player who made a set of terrible decisions and if we mislynch again it is A GREAT idea.
This just makes your defence of Sinani seem more suspicous, you just wanted townie points. The thing is you and Kavs entire plan revolves around me flipping scum which i gurantee you will not happen despite how you would enjoy it.
On June 07 2011 11:53 unichan wrote: The reason why I didn't say anything about ON early on was because I had nothing to say about him. I'm assuming he didn't mention me either because I only came up in discussions about inactive/useless posters. The only thing I noticed about him was that he supported a vet claim earlier + Show Spoiler +
I'm gonna echo Hesmyrr's request: explain ... what ton of information we get from vet claiming? It's a bad plan especially when roleblockers can block vet extra life, I can't possibly see what town would gain from vet-claim.
I think I can answer this instead of Palmer.
1. We get none, we have a free target for scum to avoid ASSUMING WE HAVE A VET.
2. Said "confirmed" townie could be scum trying to control us and avoid his lynch. We also could have no vet making counterclaiming irrelevant furthering his position.
3. It creates more Wifom (see 2)
4. Claiming in a closed setup unless about to be lynched is a pointless undertaking. We have no way of confirmed outside of death and a sane DT who could also be fakeclaiming.
which looked scummy to me, but I didn't actually start posting content and understanding why a vet claim would be stupid until later, and I didn't catch this until today when I was rereading the thread. To be honest I didn't understand the case against ON at all, the one vs sinani was 10x more clearcut (fluffy posts derp derp easy lynch), and made more sense to me at the time. So yes, it was bandwagoning, but that was because I didn't see any compelling reason to vote for anyone else.
Um. There may have been a slight bit of sarcasm in that post, but he was most definitely AGAINST a vet claim. He's providing all the bad things that would happen if that had happened.
You're all on my huge FoS list if Sinani flips non-red. I can't think of any reason why you all have such a strong opinion about lynching him. His actions are very non-scummy. If he had mafia friends I'd assume they'd try to change discussion to something else other than lynching him. Basically makes half the players <.<
Also, Varpulis jumping around with his voting pattern, basically accusing everyone. Don't know what to make of that, just noting it.
As for my vote, I'm basically defending Sinani now and I agree with Varpulis' plan. Also:
Just saying, he was an aybsmal townie in the first place. It's not a huge loss in the end.
##Vote OriginalName
@youngminii you obviously copied this votelist from GM's post - but WHY did you remove unichans name from the vote list? he had a vote sinani as well - it it was not on the top of the list nor on the bottom.... so cant really blame it from a bad copy/paste or something.
Why werent you suspicious about unichan?
Actually the names were all the people that were voting Sinani.
I absolutely 100% support Kavdragon's post against OriginalName. Not only is his analysis spot on, the information that we get from lynching him is amazing. If he ends up flipping scum, then based on the votes from day 1, we can easily narrow down the remaining scum. In fact, if OriginalName ISN'T scum then all we have to do is step back and re-evaluate everyone. That sounds confusing but I'll explain.
At the end of Day 1, it had essentially become Sinani V OriginalName plus a few ragtag votes (almost all of which were by people under the radar) among other people. There were some people that switched from Sinani to ON that could be regarded scummy but that's for another discussion.
Right now we know that Sinani was town. In fact, the fact that he was a vet made him an extremely important target for the mafia to snipe during the day. As such, it leads me to believe that at least 2-3 people that had originally (before moving over to ON) voted for Sinani were indeed scum. As more and more townies jumped on the bandwagon, the scum felt relatively safe. Then an opposing bandwagon started on ON. If ON is scum, then the vote on Sinani became even more important, as Sinani was the only other option. If ON is scum, then everyone on the Sinani bandwagon becomes even more suspicious than they are now, to the point where they become lynchable/vigi targets (imo). This is actually the most likely scenario, since mataza/palmar are both on my scumdar and steff/prplhz are both pretty scummy too.
Now if ON is actually a townie, then this means that mafia didn't actually have to do anything really for Day 1. I mean, they COULD have started the Sinani bandwagon so it doesn't really clear them. But if ON is town, then why would the people that voted for ON have even bothered? Why would I go for ON if he's just going to end up town? The bottom line is that there is no reason for myself or anyone else that went for ON (originally) to risk ourselves when we have a perfectly valid Sinani lynch. If ON ends up townie, it most likely means that the people with ragtag votes on other people could very well be mafia just laughing as town kills each other. This is actually the most unlikely outcome, but it's still a possibility.
So basically, ON is almost definitely mafia, but if he's not we still gain a ton of valuable information.
So what your saying is info lynch a scummy town player who made a set of terrible decisions and if we mislynch again it is A GREAT idea.
This just makes your defence of Sinani seem more suspicous, you just wanted townie points. The thing is you and Kavs entire plan revolves around me flipping scum which i gurantee you will not happen despite how you would enjoy it.
I never said anything about a plan, and nothing about what I said revolves around you flipping scum. I simply analysed your posting and found that you had made several actions that made you look scummy.
However, let me be clear: It's not the simple fact that you voted for sinani, it's the fact that you did so very reluctantly, as made evident by a defense of sinani in the same post you voted him. It's the fact that someone went from your "I'm-going-to-try-to-lynch-him-till-he-steps-up-his-game" list to your "I-think-he's-town" without any reasonable development in play from that person.
You didn't just make a set of terrible decisions, you pointed out WHY they were wrong in the same post that you made them. Your play doesn't make any sense as a townie, and it makes perfect sense as a mafia member.
On June 07 2011 10:57 GMarshal wrote: Day post in 4 minutes. If I don't have an action from you then you spent the night twiddling your thumbs
I don't know how GMarshal usually mods, but if you ask me, there is no reason for this post unless a night action that was supposed to be sent in, wasn't. So either we have an afk doc/cop, or mafia have an afk roleblocker. Of course if you've been rb'd last night, come forward and let us know (mafia already know who they rb'd, so there's zero point witholding that info from the town).
Secondly, the ON wagon. It all stems from Kav's post as below. I got rid of some of your bold tags so that my responses (in bold) wouldn't be confused.
On June 07 2011 09:24 Kavdragon wrote: I feel irish, cause I just found GOLD. (So much so that I'm going to forego my usual analysis formatting) Check this out: Sinani asks if vets can be lynched (something that was an obvious vet claim to me at the time) and three posts later, OriginalName posts this jem:
On June 06 2011 06:58 OriginalName wrote: ##Unvote Stephfftastiq - ok yeah im a hypocrite but thats life.
Im sorry if I didnt make it clear that I didnt like Mataza and Palmer that much, however since neither of them are likely to be lynched (and Palmer somewhat improving) I'd still like to point out that most of Mataza's posts are fairly useless and absurd fluff.
On a side note, using Meta to defend oneself is nearly pointless as you could theoreticaly came in with a much different playstyle to being with.
Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless rather then just somewhat so like others + Show Spoiler +
[yes including myself -_-
.
While lists can organize data postcount really doesnt matter as you could have someone with 10 long content filled posts or, 20 short spam notes just flip flopping your vote around pressuring others while making you seem pro-town while you don't do much else.
I will go along with a Sinani lynch for now but I would like to consider elsewhere as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus, he also thinks practically everyone is scummy.
##Vote Sinani206
Look at this post: There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him. Is there really? Here's what I see.. "sinani is an okay lynch since he's useless, all he's doing is writing lists which make you seem pro-town but actually isnt. i'll go with his lynch for now but I'm open to alternatives as his lynch won't give us a lot of info".. Where exactly is this majority that talks about sinani's innocence?The last paragraph in particular is condeming. "I'll go along with it for now..." He says that he'll go along with is, but he says it really reluctantly. If you are reluctant to vote someone, why are you voting them!? On a day1 lynch, uncertainty is not unheard of.. In fact it's probably the most common sentiment out there"But I would like to consider somwhere else as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus" He even defends him, pointing out the two things that were wrong with the lynch, and procedes to vote him!.
This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that you look for afterwards. What he says in his post and what he proceds to vote are a COMPLETE CONTADICTION. He cannot say with conviction that Sinani is scum, because he knows that he is not his scum buddy! Or perhaps he can't say it with conviction because it's day one, and nobody knows anything.
Let's also look at who he pulled his vote off of in order to vote sinani: Steff. Up to this point he's said that mataza has been playing badly and at least insinuated that he was scum, along with palmer. However, he's never felt strongly enough to vote them. He voted Steff:
On June 06 2011 02:46 OriginalName wrote: At the Moment most of my opinions from yesterday still stand.
The only really new thing I have to bring to the table is i'm going to push stefftastiq harder as in anycase lynching lurkers now is better than having them at Lylo, and considering this is a mini game this is going to come much much sooner than we want. I highly suggest lynching him today unless he really steps up.
##Vote Stefftastiq
He says that "his opinion from yesterday still stands" implying that he though that steff was lynch worthy for the past two days. (one game day). The key thing here is that he "highly suggests lynching [steff] unless he really steps it up." Steff didn't step it up, yet he pulls his vote off of him ONE POST LATER, and reluctantly votes for Sinani. This makes no sense. He shows that he actually has very little conviction behind what he is saying, and is not conserned with who is lynched. Classic scum mentality.
I disagree here as well. Before ON's post, steff posted 4 times, all of which were pretty much useless "im drunk lol" posts. After ON's post (before ON switched to nani), steff posted 8 more times, with at least 3 solid player opinion posts (and some other junk). I'm not sure what your definition of "stepping up" is, but I think this qualifies.
Looking past the sinani vote, in all of his posts up to the lynch (when people are trying to push the lynch onto him) he never once denys peoples accusations, and instead of defending himself, he just pushes for sinani harder. That's not how townies play. Townies don't lynch other people just so that they stay alive. Actually, that's exactly how townies play. You even said so in the next sentence. If someone accuses the hell out of me, I can defend myself all I want, but if I don't give an alternative, that's all pointless. Alternatives and analysis are key to any townie defense. Not just shutting down attackers arguments as that won't convince anyone, even though you're green. Remember this game isn't about what's true, but about what you can make people believe. You look for someone else who looks like scum (steff)and push for that instead of the person you think we should not be focusing on (sinani). OriginalName has played enough games to know better than that.
Original Name is scum.
This is about as clear cut as it gets folks. OriginalName is the obvious choice for a day 2 lynch.
Is it really as clear cut as it gets? Now, I know. It's only a problem when you have a solution. I have an alternative, hold yer horses. Post 2 coming up.
hesmyrr dementrio -Still treating him as a new player. Still getting a townie vibe
Mataza -flipped green.
JeeJee -Logical, helpful, and critical. His posting gives me town vibes, and I agree with his arguments. no change.
Palmar -retarded posting early, recent posts are good. For now, I'll tentatively call him green, though i'm less confident on him. I still like him. Still not confident.
Kavdragon -Yay, activity. His arguments are logical and he's providing good content. Town.
Null reads
Unichan stefftastiq Youngminii -I'm this close to calling him town, but I'm not sure. He gets big points for defending sinani. prplhz -Slightly more suspicious of him now, mostly because he started the sinani wagon. Will have to look through his posts to deduce if it's just misguided town play or actual scum.
Scum
OriginalName -Joins bandwagons, posts fluff, sheeps, and defends himself terribly. Scum. Will elaborate later
Sinani206 -Actively lurking, not providing opinion, posting lists in order to seem like he's contributing. Dammit. He flipped vet.
OriginalName has played enough games to know better than that.
I want you to find one game where Ive played decently as town. Off the top my head ive been:
-D1 Mayor lynched (by you)
-Shot by mafia for confusion
-Really inactive minigame
-Subbed out
Your just bullshitting now, I'm trying to improve but using this as evidence is really weak.
Um...That has nothing to do with meta. As you yourself said, meta is about extrapolating from patterns in someone's play. This has nothing to do with patterns in your play, and I would say the same thing about anyone who has played in as many games as you, regardless of whether I knew anything about there meta. (Take Bumatlarge for instance, in the game where I lynched you D1 as mayor: I called him out because I knew that he was an experienced player, but I knew nothing of his meta at that point.) It's about having played in enough games that you know some basics about play.
On June 07 2011 10:57 GMarshal wrote: Day post in 4 minutes. If I don't have an action from you then you spent the night twiddling your thumbs
I don't know how GMarshal usually mods, but if you ask me, there is no reason for this post unless a night action that was supposed to be sent in, wasn't. So either we have an afk doc/cop, or mafia have an afk roleblocker. Of course if you've been rb'd last night, come forward and let us know (mafia already know who they rb'd, so there's zero point witholding that info from the town).
Secondly, the ON wagon. It all stems from Kav's post as below. I got rid of some of your bold tags so that my responses (in bold) wouldn't be confused.
On June 07 2011 09:24 Kavdragon wrote: I feel irish, cause I just found GOLD. (So much so that I'm going to forego my usual analysis formatting) Check this out: Sinani asks if vets can be lynched (something that was an obvious vet claim to me at the time) and three posts later, OriginalName posts this jem:
On June 06 2011 06:58 OriginalName wrote: ##Unvote Stephfftastiq - ok yeah im a hypocrite but thats life.
Im sorry if I didnt make it clear that I didnt like Mataza and Palmer that much, however since neither of them are likely to be lynched (and Palmer somewhat improving) I'd still like to point out that most of Mataza's posts are fairly useless and absurd fluff.
On a side note, using Meta to defend oneself is nearly pointless as you could theoreticaly came in with a much different playstyle to being with.
Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless rather then just somewhat so like others + Show Spoiler +
[yes including myself -_-
.
While lists can organize data postcount really doesnt matter as you could have someone with 10 long content filled posts or, 20 short spam notes just flip flopping your vote around pressuring others while making you seem pro-town while you don't do much else.
I will go along with a Sinani lynch for now but I would like to consider elsewhere as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus, he also thinks practically everyone is scummy.
##Vote Sinani206
Look at this post: There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him. Is there really? Here's what I see.. "sinani is an okay lynch since he's useless, all he's doing is writing lists which make you seem pro-town but actually isnt. i'll go with his lynch for now but I'm open to alternatives as his lynch won't give us a lot of info".. Where exactly is this majority that talks about sinani's innocence?He says that "Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless" That's ONE reason for why sinani should be lynched. He later says " nobody is really connected to him" and " hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus". TWO reasons why sinani is town. Anyways, it's not about percentages of points, it's about the fact that he brings up these points as to why sinani is town, then votes for him.The last paragraph in particular is condeming. "I'll go along with it for now..." He says that he'll go along with is, but he says it really reluctantly. If you are reluctant to vote someone, why are you voting them!? On a day1 lynch, uncertainty is not unheard of.. In fact it's probably the most common sentiment out thereYes, I would agree that uncertanty is common especially, as you say, day one. But you have to look at it in comparison to the vote he made on steff. There was no hesetancy in that vote. He seemed quite sure of that read, yet he went with something that was obviously a weaker read in sinani."But I would like to consider somwhere else as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus" He even defends him, pointing out the two things that were wrong with the lynch, and procedes to vote him!.
This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that you look for afterwards. What he says in his post and what he proceds to vote are a COMPLETE CONTADICTION. He cannot say with conviction that Sinani is scum, because he knows that he is not his scum buddy! Or perhaps he can't say it with conviction because it's day one, and nobody knows anything. Again, compare it to steff. Let's also look at who he pulled his vote off of in order to vote sinani: Steff. Up to this point he's said that mataza has been playing badly and at least insinuated that he was scum, along with palmer. However, he's never felt strongly enough to vote them. He voted Steff:
On June 06 2011 02:46 OriginalName wrote: At the Moment most of my opinions from yesterday still stand.
The only really new thing I have to bring to the table is i'm going to push stefftastiq harder as in anycase lynching lurkers now is better than having them at Lylo, and considering this is a mini game this is going to come much much sooner than we want. I highly suggest lynching him today unless he really steps up.
##Vote Stefftastiq
He says that "his opinion from yesterday still stands" implying that he though that steff was lynch worthy for the past two days. (one game day). The key thing here is that he "highly suggests lynching [steff] unless he really steps it up." Steff didn't step it up, yet he pulls his vote off of him ONE POST LATER, and reluctantly votes for Sinani. This makes no sense. He shows that he actually has very little conviction behind what he is saying, and is not conserned with who is lynched. Classic scum mentality.
I disagree here as well. Before ON's post, steff posted 4 times, all of which were pretty much useless "im drunk lol" posts. After ON's post (before ON switched to nani), steff posted 8 more times, with at least 3 solid player opinion posts (and some other junk). I'm not sure what your definition of "stepping up" is, but I think this qualifies.I missed a few posts from steff when looking over, but I think that the point still stands. He never said anything about steff shaping up when he switched votes. On the contrary, he called himself a hypocrite.
Looking past the sinani vote, in all of his posts up to the lynch (when people are trying to push the lynch onto him) he never once denys peoples accusations, and instead of defending himself, he just pushes for sinani harder. That's not how townies play. Townies don't lynch other people just so that they stay alive. Actually, that's exactly how townies play. You even said so in the next sentence. If someone accuses the hell out of me, I can defend myself all I want, but if I don't give an alternative, that's all pointless. Alternatives and analysis are key to any townie defense. Not just shutting down attackers arguments as that won't convince anyone, even though you're green. Remember this game isn't about what's true, but about what you can make people believe. Alternatives are important, I agree. But it's the alternative that he chooses that is scummy. Look at what he accuses sinani of: Being useless. Is that honestly the most scummy thing he could find out of everyone's play? His accusation of sinani is the weak accusation of a scum player who knows that he's innocent. Not that of a townie looking for real scum to substitute. You look for someone else who looks like scum (steff)and push for that instead of the person you think we should not be focusing on (sinani). OriginalName has played enough games to know better than that.
Original Name is scum.
This is about as clear cut as it gets folks. OriginalName is the obvious choice for a day 2 lynch.
Is it really as clear cut as it gets? Now, I know. It's only a problem when you have a solution. I have an alternative, hold yer horses. Post 2 coming up.
Oh, and Jee Jee, next time wait to defend someone like that. We need to see how OriginalName responds under pressure, and defending for him is only going to make it harder to read that response. That's bad for town either way. I'm not a closed book on this lynch, but I have valid points and I need to see how he responds to this.
(In this case i would have waited till at least 20hrs before posting that, so that it would be in time for people to change their minds if they were convinced by your arguments, but you leave enough time for OriginalName to respond.)
fucking christ my computer bitched out on me twice while writing my part 2. It's getting late I'm not going to re-write it a 3rd time tonight. Will sleep on it and write it up tomorrow. Will read your responses at that time as well Kav
OriginalName might be scummy - good points in the posts above - Im still suspicious about youngminiii tho - but he has atleast stepped up.
About me not having written anything about prplz and dementrio is that Ive felt they have had pretty townish behaviour - Varpulis points out that pprplz started the wagon against sinani, which might be something - altho I was pretty convinced of sinani myself.
ill put a pressure vote originalname for now - youngminii still second on my scummylist, what is suspicious is that if scum just "hide" in ON's vote or would they try to find another target if he really is scum?
Right now we know that Sinani was town. In fact, the fact that he was a vet made him an extremely important target for the mafia to snipe during the day. As such, it leads me to believe that at least 2-3 people that had originally (before moving over to ON) voted for Sinani were indeed scum. As more and more townies jumped on the bandwagon, the scum felt relatively safe. Then an opposing bandwagon started on ON. If ON is scum, then the vote on Sinani became even more important, as Sinani was the only other option. If ON is scum, then everyone on the Sinani bandwagon becomes even more suspicious than they are now, to the point where they become lynchable/vigi targets (imo). This is actually the most likely scenario, since mataza/palmar are both on my scumdar and steff/prplhz are both pretty scummy too.
You are assuming that mafia knew sinani as vet from the start. When he asked his green question he had votes from prplhz, palmar and mataza. Up until then we have no reason to assume that the mafia had prioritized him, although he was an easy target. After the green question people joined the bandwagon in this order: stefftastiq, unichan, varpulis, originalname. Then the actual claim came, varpulis proposed originalname as the alternate wagon but forgot to actually switch votes, you put your vote for ON and palmar switched.
Would palmar switch vote so quickly if he was scum? My gut tells me no. Sinani was an important target at that point and mafia still didn't know how the town would react to the claim. We now know that mataza was a citizen. I have a scum read on prplhz, but logic tells us that there are probably at least 2 goons to be found in the second wave to jump on sinani's bandwagon. I find kav's argument against originalname convincing and I think he is the best bandwagon candidate right now.
##vote OriginalName
I have to go to a job interview right now, but after that I promise I'll be more active than I have been till now.
I agree that OriginalName is very scummy at the moment. The main thing that sticks out to me is him insisting he always plays bad town. I always find it very suspicious when people play the "I'm bad" card (or the more popular alternative, "I'm new") as their defense.
Instead of commenting on some meta, why not step up your game and actually provide an alternative. If you are town you now have the responsibility to explain why you are not scum, and try to tell us why you should not be lynched.
Ok, I cut out just the responses so that the posts can get a little more readable. Mine in bold.
On June 07 2011 13:27 Kavdragon wrote: He says that "Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless" That's ONE reason for why sinani should be lynched. He later says " nobody is really connected to him" and " hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus". TWO reasons why sinani is town. Dumbest thing I've ever read. Number of reasons isn't ever relevant, it's the quality of the reasons that matter. If I just give one reason "I checked him and he flipped red", that's going to be hell of a lot more convincing than any number of counter-reasons you can think of.Anyways, it's not about percentages of points, it's about the fact that he brings up these points as to why sinani is town, then votes for him. I'm glad you agree that the previous sentences are totally irrelevant. Otherwise I'd be questioning your motives for posting that nonsense. As I see it, he brings the points up not as to why sinani is town, but as to why he's not the best lynch. 1) "Not a lot of info is gained from the lynch" is pointing out a flaw with the current target but that's not implying his townieness or otherwise. 2) "he's probably thrown under the metaphorical bus" shows that there isn't a lot of resistance to getting him lynched. The fact that he voted for him after posting that particular reason is a little strange, I admit. I can't say anything about that and concede this point.
Yes, I would agree that uncertanty is common especially, as you say, day one. But you have to look at it in comparison to the vote he made on steff. There was no hesetancy in that vote. He seemed quite sure of that read, yet he went with something that was obviously a weaker read in sinani.
Again, compare it to steff. His vote on steff was a no-brainer vote since steff wasn't active; once steff became active he had to switch or look like a hypocrite.
I missed a few posts from steff when looking over, but I think that the point still stands. He never said anything about steff shaping up when he switched votes. On the contrary, he called himself a hypocrite. You'll have to ask him why he calls himself a hypocrite there as I don't know, but I think the course of action he took is perfectly explainable from a townie point of view: vote for inactive person X. X becomes active. Change vote from X to Y
Alternatives are important, I agree. But it's the alternative that he chooses that is scummy. Look at what he accuses sinani of: Being useless. Is that honestly the most scummy thing he could find out of everyone's play? His accusation of sinani is the weak accusation of a scum player who knows that he's innocent. Not that of a townie looking for real scum to substitute. Remember it's day one. If it were any other day, I'd normally agree that just "being useless" isn't lynch worthy, and is usually the sign of a bad townie. But for a day one lynch, "being useless" is a better reason than "he was inactive, but he's not anymore, but let's lynch him anyway"
Responses in Red.
##Vote: OriginalName
Keep in mind, OriginalName is already at 5 votes. That's 50%. Actually I don't think this game works on majority lynch, and simply deadline lynch (correct me if I'm wrong GMarshal), so it's not as dangerous as it would be if you consider he's at L-1. That's one hell of a fast bandwagon and it's been like what, 12 hours? And I'm apparently the only person that sees anything wrong with that?
I'm afraid your argument has quite a bit of holes in it and the fact that everyone is just buying it no problem and choosing to vote for him makes me believe there's at least two mafia in the 6 votes so far (6 if you count steff. He unvoted but he's clearly capable of voting for OName as well)
That's some good odds and I'd like to keep this list in mind for later. + Show Spoiler +
Varp Minii Kav Steff* Dementrio Palmar
For completeness sake of course, I'd have to put up the list of people who didn't hop on the wagon yet (although they may later, it's quite likely they are just sleeping), so that if this lynch goes through and OName ends up flipping red, you can consider these as people who didn't wish to vote for their scumbuddy.
*I put a star on myself because I know I'm innocent, and I'm just not buying your argument. Also note that OriginalName is missing from this list for obvious reasons.
TL,DR: Essentially, your argument comes down to: "He said Sinani isn't a good lynch target but he voted for him anyway, AH-HA! Gotcha mafia scum!" Sorry, but for a day one lynch target, you rarely if ever have a "good target", and sometimes you just have to go along with the rest of the town's opinion since you won't be able to convince them otherwise (it's not like you can make a decidedly better argument against anyone else on day one so why bother?)
This would be a good argument later in the game, but day one? Give me a break. How does nobody else see this? I'm sorry, but this warrants a FoS on you from me, Kav.
On June 08 2011 02:52 JeeJee wrote: Actually I don't think this game works on majority lynch, and simply deadline lynch (correct me if I'm wrong GMarshal), so it's not as dangerous as it would be if you consider he's at L-1.
This is a deadline lynch, majority dosn't matter, only who has the most votes at the end of the day, so yes, you are correct JeeJee
Sigh. Jee Jee. Get some coaching from someone. I suggest foolishness or BloodyC0bler depending on who has time. You've got good intentions, but you're doing it all wrong. I'll explain later in the game-day, but honestly, you're hurting the town much more than you are helping it right now.
On June 08 2011 03:28 Kavdragon wrote: Sigh. Jee Jee. Get some coaching from someone. I suggest foolishness or BloodyC0bler depending on who has time. You've got good intentions, but you're doing it all wrong. I'll explain later in the game-day, but honestly, you're hurting the town much more than you are helping it right now.
First I want to say that nobody should feel safe. I might still switch my vote to OriginalName or somebody else depending on what happens during the rest of the day, I just don't want to repeat day1 where we did not get enough out of a lynch because the dude was townie and scum could just have been sitting back and letting town handle things.
Varpulis The guy has had 39 posts in this game. I think his early game was quite good, avoiding fluff and applying pressure while encouraging everybody else to do the same, but his pressure ended up being a joke nobody could take seriously. He has also consistently tried to keep all doors open and all options available, never really taking a stand.
His handling of the sinani206 lynch requires some scrutiny:
On June 05 2011 10:21 prplhz wrote: Okay I'm gonna see if I can do two things at the same time and get both a lurker and a scum.
sinani206 The guy has had 7 posts so far one "hi" post, two posts listing inactive people, two math posts, one posts where he says he's rather lynch lurkers over the scummiest player and then one single post that has any content at all; one where he asks Varpulis if he didn't change his mind rather fast.
7 posts, no content at all. This is a guy desperately trying to be active while desperately not trying to attract any attention at all. This is scum.
##Vote sinani206
Not damning evidence by any means. At least he's sharing his opinion and his reasons why. Does seem a bit sheepy though. Not sure how you came to the conclusion "this is scum" with that analysis.
Frankly, there's not enough information on the table to properly identify scum, i think. You could say that half the players in this game are trying to be active without content. It seems to me that you really wanted to find somebody scummy, so you picked a person and figured out how is posts could be interpreted as scummy.
Lynching an inactive is good and all, but it's better to lynch the one in that group that's the least active, rather than one that's just posting fluff. We can leave them for later.
First I don't see why you don't think that sinani206 was acting scum. At one point or another during day1 like 8 people voted for sinani206 because of the reasons I stated in my original post and the weak defense he put up. The dude was very much scum, unless you know that he wasn't. I like how he is actively trying to take a stand here, wanting us to lynch the one who is least active.
Sinani206 -Actively lurking, not providing opinion, posting lists in order to seem like he's contributing.
My vote goes on Sinani at the end of the day if he doesn't step up his posting.
These are the exact same arguments that I used for my vote but that were not "damning by any means". Also it goes against his policy that you should lynch the one with least activity rather than those with least content, there were still people with just about no activity at this point.
On June 06 2011 06:19 Varpulis wrote: Alright, my vote on OriginalName is accomplishing nothing at this point. He needs to step up his posting or I'll be gunning for him later. sinani206
On June 06 2011 05:31 sinani206 wrote: OK, now that that's settled, I am staying with my vote on stefftastiq for reasons that I have already stated. What else do you want me to say?
In this post, he pretends that he doesn't know what he was expected to post. I call bullshit. He's avoiding posting an opinion and hiding behind his lurker vote. At this point, he's playing to a scum objective, by lurking actively and not giving us quality posts to analyze.
##unvote OriginalName ##vote sinani206 As an aside, i've got a major noobtown read on stefftastiq atm.
First he says my analysis is bad, then he agrees with it and then he votes for sinani206 because of my original analysis and that two-line post he quotes here. I can use Kavdragon's scum tells from his OriginalName analysis, Varpulis claims one thing but does another. Also Varpulis drops his policy of lynching the least active player to give the forming bandwagon a big push.
After sinani206's veteran claim he proposes a plan: cop check sinani206 but don't claim, and he opens up the possibility for himself to change votes to OriginalName if other people decide to do so. After that he supposedly disappears until after the lynch. Now if you consider this plan it is extremely good for scum. If there is a cop he will waste his check on sinani206, who is a townie, and after that they can just look at who is suddenly defending sinani206 on day2 and this guy might very well be cop. At the same time Varpulis tries to open up the possiblities of changing his vote in the critical 90 minutes before deadline having to do so unless some criteria is fulfilled. I think this is very scummy, the hesitation to switch his vote while still wanting to keep the option readily available.
On June 08 2011 03:28 Kavdragon wrote: Sigh. Jee Jee. Get some coaching from someone. I suggest foolishness or BloodyC0bler depending on who has time. You've got good intentions, but you're doing it all wrong. I'll explain later in the game-day, but honestly, you're hurting the town much more than you are helping it right now.
csb
What do you think of OriginalName's defence? In your own words that townies need to suggest alternatives, but it seems like all he's willing to do is sit back and call a general BS on my arguments. He's been around since I made the accusations, why isn't he responding to the points I make, and why is he not trying to contribute?
On June 08 2011 03:28 Kavdragon wrote: Sigh. Jee Jee. Get some coaching from someone. I suggest foolishness or BloodyC0bler depending on who has time. You've got good intentions, but you're doing it all wrong. I'll explain later in the game-day, but honestly, you're hurting the town much more than you are helping it right now.
csb
What do you think of OriginalName's defence? In your own words that townies need to suggest alternatives, but it seems like all he's willing to do is sit back and call a general BS on my arguments. He's been around since I made the accusations, why isn't he responding to the points I make, and why is he not trying to contribute?
His defense is garbage, no denying that. I have no idea where he is, or why he's not responding. That doesn't make your argument any less shitty though, it just makes him look terrible. What is starting to worry me isn't the fact that your argument is shit, but the fact that a bunch of people lapped it up no problem. Kind of like minii and "lol let's have vet claim that's a great idea" day 1.
On June 08 2011 03:28 Kavdragon wrote: Sigh. Jee Jee. Get some coaching from someone. I suggest foolishness or BloodyC0bler depending on who has time. You've got good intentions, but you're doing it all wrong. I'll explain later in the game-day, but honestly, you're hurting the town much more than you are helping it right now.
csb
What do you think of OriginalName's defence? In your own words that townies need to suggest alternatives, but it seems like all he's willing to do is sit back and call a general BS on my arguments. He's been around since I made the accusations, why isn't he responding to the points I make, and why is he not trying to contribute?
His defense is garbage, no denying that. I have no idea where he is, or why he's not responding. That doesn't make your argument any less shitty though, it just makes him look terrible. What is starting to worry me isn't the fact that your argument is shit, but the fact that a bunch of people lapped it up no problem. Kind of like minii and "lol let's have vet claim that's a great idea" day 1.
Firstly, the argument isn't shit. There is a reason why that many people followed it. If there are 6 people voting based off of that, at the very most half of them are townies who agreed with it.
Secondly, I wanted to hold off on this till I got a real response out of ON, but w/e. I'll explain my actions. This is pressure. This is pressure the way you are supposed to do it. Not some crappy "I'll leave my vote on you to pressure you, but just so you know, I'm not going to actually vote you" pressure. Not some out of the blue FOS. Real pressure.
There are two parts this game I play: The first is analysis. You build a case against someone, and make it as strong and condemning as possible. That's the pressure part. You have to have substance to pressure with, and you have to have a legitimate case to pressure with or people will ignore you, and there is no pressure actually put on someone. You have to get enough force that you are not the only one that is voting for them. I mean, give me a break. One vote means nothing if no one follows it. Threatening someone with your vote means nothing because you cannot lynch someone by yourself. Get people behind you, get someone to have the majority of the votes, get their neck near the noose.
That, is pressure.
Then comes the second part. How they respond. This part is almost (if not more) important than the first step. This is what makes or breaks a read. This is why I'm certain that OriginalName is scum.
Look at it from a townie's perspective: You are accused by someone, and half the town jumps on you. One person stands up and defends you. What do you do? You defend yourself, but you also work on contributing and look for a better alternative in the event that people still think you are scum. OriginalName's defense makes NO sense in this regard.
Now look at it from a mafia's perspective: You are accused by someone, and half the town jumps on you. One person stands up and defends you. What do you do? You sit back and relax. Rule number 1 according to Ace: Don't give the town a damn thing. Oh, and that townie who is defending you? If you do get lynched, then he'll make and excellent scapegoat for the mafia to bandwagon tomorrow.
I wasn't totally convinced that OriginalName as guilty before, but his reaction has confirmed any doubts I had.
Funny how if we actually went through with the plan we wouldn't have lost our vet, but that's just derailment and I won't discuss that.
Kav, don't flame him like that during the game. Leave that for endgame discussion.
At this point, anyone that's not voting for ON will obviously be put under scrutiny if he flips red.
@Dementrio: Yes I've backed off Palmar quite a bit, steff/unichan/prplhz are all scum candidates too. My gut tells me steff is just an overeager town, but that could apply to both the others too.
@Prplhz: Your pressure against Varpulis is stupid. None of those reasons are scumworthy and you are guilty of the last line of reasoning yourself. I kind of don't like how you're just completely avoiding voting for ON, but I mean if you both really were scum you'd probably be trying to lynch an actual lynch candidate instead of randomly pressuring Varpulis.
What vexes me right now is that other than ON, the highest number of votes on anyone is 1. Either scum knows ON is done for and is bussing him or they're extremely uncoordinated. I don't like how unichan and JeeJee are abstaining their votes until later, they could be just waiting until the last moment in case another lynch candidate pops up. I'm going to say JeeJee's doing this out of bad play, and unichan is the more suspicious one.
Note: Palmar has posted contentless content again for the past few posts. Keep an eye on him.
Kavdragon is very good at this game, IF ON flips green/blue can i ask the detective to check him? I'm sure Kav will agree to this if he's not scum. Thanks.
@Kav Thats one excellent post sir - some people are just able to write things crystal clear!
on the "pressure vote" issue - right now all votes are for one player - and my vote for youngminii which i wanted to do to pressure him, in the fashion you mention - shouldn't town spread out their votes more, try to pressure more players at the same time (or is this a good idea?) - its pretty easy for the scum to hide when only one player is a target at once - they are probably just going with it watching town team up on their own (maybe not in the ON case)
also this could probably lead to more content being put into the game - maybe then it would be less of posting just to post, without no real content - cause there probably are limits to the amount of analysis and conclusions to be made out of a fairly restricted amount of posts as far as i see it.
@youngminiii i still think you left your defence out - why did you really say "yo if sinani flips green - im green" (short summary of your post) - cause thats obviously superscummy, and if you really were town, theres no real good reason to say it anyways?
On June 08 2011 03:51 Kavdragon wrote: OriginalName, where are you?
I feel like that's been the theme of your play this game. Say one thing, do the opposite. Why are you not defending yourself?
School, where I have no access to TL.
I believe that your posting history from yesterday confirms this, but it doesn't explain why you didn't respond yesterday evening. Now that you are here, care to contribute?
On June 08 2011 06:53 stefftastiq wrote: @Kav Thats one excellent post sir - some people are just able to write things crystal clear!
on the "pressure vote" issue - right now all votes are for one player - and my vote for youngminii which i wanted to do to pressure him, in the fashion you mention - shouldn't town spread out their votes more, try to pressure more players at the same time (or is this a good idea?) - its pretty easy for the scum to hide when only one player is a target at once - they are probably just going with it watching town team up on their own (maybe not in the ON case)
also this could probably lead to more content being put into the game - maybe then it would be less of posting just to post, without no real content - cause there probably are limits to the amount of analysis and conclusions to be made out of a fairly restricted amount of posts as far as i see it.
@youngminiii i still think you left your defence out - why did you really say "yo if sinani flips green - im green" (short summary of your post) - cause thats obviously superscummy, and if you really were town, theres no real good reason to say it anyways?
Pressuring other people is a VERY good idea. There should not only be one lynch candidate. However, you need to be able to post a reason why people should vote someone. In this case you would need to build a case against YM, and if it's strong enough then people will follow it and vote for him. In order to pressure people you'll need to convince others that you are right.
On June 08 2011 06:35 youngminii wrote: By the way
Kavdragon is very good at this game, IF ON flips green/blue can i ask the detective to check him? I'm sure Kav will agree to this if he's not scum. Thanks.
I'm ok, not "very good". Just look at my past two games as town. And it would be nice to get checked, but obviously I know that the check would be better put to use on someone else. In any case, I'll leave it up to the DT.
Since you guys want an alternate lynch target I give you one.
First and foremost:
On June 08 2011 01:15 Palmar wrote: Very little discussion going on at the moment.
I agree that OriginalName is very scummy at the moment. The main thing that sticks out to me is him insisting he always plays bad town. I always find it very suspicious when people play the "I'm bad" card (or the more popular alternative, "I'm new") as their defense.
Instead of commenting on some meta, why not step up your game and actually provide an alternative. If you are town you now have the responsibility to explain why you are not scum, and try to tell us why you should not be lynched.
##Vote OriginalName
On June 06 2011 09:14 Palmar wrote: The lack of discussion is slightly disturbing.
Sinani206 hadn't contributed anything, but his death seems to come too easily... I don't know.
I'm going to start with something I learned from Kav, clearly making it known that your reading the thread and then doing nothing.
Palmer on two occasions has pointed out a lack of disscussion and then clearly does not add anything else. In the first case he just parrots Kavdragon on my first notion of defense and the second he once again points out the obvious.
On June 06 2011 10:43 Palmar wrote: I think sinani's death would've been too quiet.
##Unvote ##Vote OriginalName
Where's the reasoning behind this? That is filler bullshit to climb onto a wagon, at least when I stayed there I gave my reasons.
Most of his posts are not much longer than this and hes asking for more disscussion. Theres a Contradiction he asks and never gives.
On June 07 2011 18:26 Palmar wrote: I still don't feel right about youngminii, voting against a townie lynch doesn't absolve you. if ON flips green it'll much less absolve you.
ON's defense is really shitty in my opinion, claiming that he's always bad at town is just... not how you should defend yourself.
I need to re-read a bit, will have a big post coming up later.
Still no big post up, parroting about my defense. etc.
This is the entirety of this recent posting history, im going to leave the prior incident out for now.
I couldn't finish up my post today, I will post it tomorrow, but I'm travelling to norway. I will probably only be online around 4-8 hours before the vote. I will mostly not be able to be online from now and until evening (20:00-ish GMT) tomorrow.
Sorry guys, busy day. First, a defense: I spent my early game pressuring. I pressured a lot, probably too much and too spread out. When discussing lurkers, and lurkers only, I suggested lynching the least active. If we're going to lynch an inactive, we should lynch the most inactive.
About Sinani: prplhz seems to think that his analysis was the reason for my vote. It wasn't. sinani played poorly and did not post content until pressured heavily. To me, that was very scummy. Changing one's mind is not a scumtell, as far as I know.
Yes, i was offline for the lynch and forgot to change my vote. It was a mistake. I came up with a plan and didn't follow through. I admit it. That's a bit scummy, I'll agree.
The plan with the cop check was not. It was the only way I could think of to ensure that it wasn't a mafia being clever and tricking us.
A page or two back, stefftastiq made a post that I really don't like. My responses in green
On June 07 2011 17:58 stefftastiq wrote: OriginalName might be scummy - good points in the posts above - Im still suspicious about youngminiii tho - but he has atleast stepped up.
this is indecisive. He basically says "yeah, he could be scum, but so could that other guy."
About me not having written anything about prplz and dementrio is that Ive felt they have had pretty townish behaviour - Varpulis points out that pprplz started the wagon against sinani, which might be something - altho I was pretty convinced of sinani myself.
I think this is a defense about something, but the last sentence is strange. He states that prplhz starting the bandwagon might be scummy, but might not. again, indecisive.
ill put a pressure vote originalname for now - youngminii still second on my scummylist, what is suspicious is that if scum just "hide" in ON's vote or would they try to find another target if he really is scum?
Bandwagoning counts as pressuring now? Last part is just useless
##Vote: OriginalName
His posts in general are pretty bad. Right now I'm torn between calling him scum, and just calling him a bad townie. It could be either. The post above is making me lean scum, because it's overall too safe and noncommittal. He voted on Youngminii for "pressure,"(weak reasons) right after.
@Varpulis Yeah, my reasons were probably not the best - but atleast I was honest about that in my post - im suspicious about both of them - in the nextpost I also included
@youngminii while reading back I also see that you removed Varpulis name from the list - not suspicious of him either?
Varpulis + youngmini + unichan got a little thing going on ?
Cause this is what I was suspicious about - and now you probably saw that and thought that you will fire back at one that you almost bandwagoned day1 because of my inactivity.
Then more people became more suspicious about you - and ON - new scum trio - youngminii, varpulis, ON ?
- you also try to break down my bad english - thats ok, Ill explain.
About me not having written anything about prplz and dementrio is that Ive felt they have had pretty townish behaviour - Varpulis points out that pprplz started the wagon against sinani, which might be something - altho I was pretty convinced of sinani myself.
this is not a defence about something - I pointed out that you said pprplz started the wagon - NOW i ofcourse see that you might have said this to draw attention to prpplz instead of yourself - which makes sense if you are scum.
the part about sinani - well - i thought he was scum, he wasnt - he didnt do -anything- to make me think otherwise, which sux (i was asleep when he claimed vet and people started thinking - voting limit is 0400 AM in Norway - im just up way to late because of inside the game tonight)
The pressurevote issue was something kavdragon discussed in his post earlier - he explained it well - i wanted to put pressure on more than one player - but it became kinda useless when there were 5 votes on ON and 1 on YM - as he didnt really seem to care - and to be honest my case were really weak, except for him saying in advance that he defended sinani - and by that he he is green.
My posts might also be bad - Im working on it
right now i think the scum is
youngminii Varpulis OriginalName
All three of you seem to avoid yourself as a subject - and rather try to push for votes at other players.
On June 08 2011 10:32 stefftastiq wrote: right now i think the scum is
youngminii Varpulis OriginalName
All three of you seem to avoid yourself as a subject - and rather try to push for votes at other players.
Why should I defend myself unnecessarily against bad arguments when I'm not even up for a lynch? My time is better spent finding scum than self reflecting.
Pushing for votes is how mafia is played. I scumhunt, I vote, I push to lynch the person I'm voting for if nobody else thinks that I'm right. If needed, i defend myself.
Did you miss this post? I discuss my actions and defend myself.
Why should I defend myself unnecessarily against bad arguments when I'm not even up for a lynch? My time is better spent finding scum than self reflecting.
That was exactly what I thought when i just read your post about me :[
you might just be semi-red
i would -really- like to see some thoughs about the people from unichan and dementrio which has hardly said something through the whole game.
hestmyrr had a good pretty townish post if i remember right - and dementio made one later on but unichan - u still hiding?
looking through the thread there are hardly any posts from unichan whatsoever - which makes him hard to read - he posted early on that he was on a match competition - but he returned (jeejee actually posted that he would not post until after the math comp - might be checked by random, but he also could have wondered where his scum buddy was?)
Would really like to know unichans opinion on: Varpulis, youngminii, originalename and jeejee
On June 08 2011 08:51 dementrio wrote: Originalname, what do you think of youngmiini and kavdragon?
Kav is town for all the right reasons.
YoungMini i have no damn clue sometimes hes town but always I have that sneaking suspicion of scum deapite what people might want to believe about yesterday.
On June 08 2011 10:32 stefftastiq wrote: right now i think the scum is
youngminii Varpulis OriginalName
All three of you seem to avoid yourself as a subject - and rather try to push for votes at other players.
Why should I defend myself unnecessarily against bad arguments when I'm not even up for a lynch? My time is better spent finding scum than self reflecting.
This is exactly why I haven't been responding to steff.
I'm sorry man but the arguments just don't make sense. If you pressure someone, you really do have to make it real pressure. You listed some reasons against me and then moved on. If I were scum, I could just ignore you and your accusations and be safe because you would just move on to someone else. I never felt pressured by your 'pressure' at any point during this game. I don't think you're scum though.
ON, as someone who's slated to be lynched, I feel as if your methods are a little off putting. Why are you putting on heat against Palmar when you should be defending yourself? You kind of just ignored the accusations put against you and went straight for Palmar. Perhaps you're scum and you've given up and you're trying to confuse us before you die by creating/severing a connection between you and Palmar. Perhaps you're town and you genuinely think Palmar is scum.
Id like to first of all point out some similarities between today and yesterday:
-This bandwagon is being formed rediculously easily. -Most people are sheeping of the reasons of one person. -They will if I go through both be silly mislynches.
Im going to focus on the first point mainly.
In this case the most coherently explained and analysed non-sheeping opinion is from Kavdragon. He took what he thought to be scum and organised and presented it. He honestly succeded in scaring the metaphorical crap out of me. I dont deal with pressure well and came up with a shoddy defense.
Therefore I after I basically had the majority of town gunning for me I panicked but Ive come to realize that theres no reason it should have happenes that fast. Sure JeeJee tryed to defend me but lets face the fact that it justs looks like a scumbuddy trying to save me. However if I were scum why put that risk to try to save me? Im have the most heat on me atm if it were me Would have kept my trap shut and bussed.
I then chose to throw another lynch candidate out there. I chose to do this to try to give another option to us but I did not explain that at all as you can clearly see.
So now I really have no idea what to do, I'm having a hard enough time articulating what im trying to say at the moment, as such if there is anything specific youd like addressed please ask. I have absolutely nothing to hide from town.
I didn't say that my analysis was the reason for your vote, I am saying that you discarded my analysis and then later when the bandwagon was about to get going, you used the things I had concluded in my analysis as a reason to vote for sinani206.
Next you say that you were, conveniently, offline after your plan and "forgot to change [your] vote". But your plan was not about remembering anything, your plan was that if a lot of other people wanted to change their vote then you'd also like the option to change your vote.
This seems like a very weak defense and it seems like you are making stuff up. Townies don't need to make stuff up, they just need to state why they acted as they did and not try to make up/remember some lie.
And then again, the cop part of your plan was terrible. I'd say that it was worse than Palmar's original plan, you want a cop to check sinani206 and then try to defend him out of the blue. Well if that will not paint a huge target on someone's back for the scum to aim at I don't know what. And nothing is EVER confirmed unless you're scum (or cop).
@youngminii
On June 08 2011 06:32 youngminii wrote: [...] @Prplhz: Your pressure against Varpulis is stupid. None of those reasons are scumworthy and you are guilty of the last line of reasoning yourself. I kind of don't like how you're just completely avoiding voting for ON, but I mean if you both really were scum you'd probably be trying to lynch an actual lynch candidate instead of randomly pressuring Varpulis. [...]
I'd like to see you make a case against an actual lynch candidate since, unapparent to me, Varpulis is not scum at all.
I'm a bit more reluctant to jump on the bandwagon this time - we all saw how the last pressure bandwagon turned out. That being said, OriginalName's defense isn't very strong. He has enough votes on him for pressure now, and they probably won't be taken off any time soon looking through his recent posts. He goes for Palmar, who isn't really on anybody's shit list - it looks like he's just going for a target for others to bandwagon. Like what happened with sinani, he's using the "weak" and "filler" post attack to try to get others to agree. However the argument isn't mounted as clearly as the one against sinani was, and clearly no one is buying it.
On June 08 2011 17:04 unichan wrote: I'm a bit more reluctant to jump on the bandwagon this time - we all saw how the last pressure bandwagon turned out. That being said, OriginalName's defense isn't very strong. He has enough votes on him for pressure now, and they probably won't be taken off any time soon looking through his recent posts. He goes for Palmar, who isn't really on anybody's shit list - it looks like he's just going for a target for others to bandwagon. Like what happened with sinani, he's using the "weak" and "filler" post attack to try to get others to agree. However the argument isn't mounted as clearly as the one against sinani was, and clearly no one is buying it.
Trying to mount another bandwagon is actually the only sensible ON could do as town. Looking at it from this perspective, he realizes he has nothing that clears him, so his best defense is trying to get somebody else lynched; He knows he's town and therefore any lynch helps town more than his lynch.
However why Palmar? Why not youngmiini? ON says he's been suspicious of YM for a while, he's been a vocal supporter of the argument against him and more importantly there are already other people that seem ready to support this vote. In fact I think youngmiini would make the most sense even if ON was scum.
The Palmar vote makes me think one of two things: either originalname has given up and is not trying, or he is scum along with youngmiini.
On June 08 2011 17:04 unichan wrote: I'm a bit more reluctant to jump on the bandwagon this time - we all saw how the last pressure bandwagon turned out. That being said, OriginalName's defense isn't very strong. He has enough votes on him for pressure now, and they probably won't be taken off any time soon looking through his recent posts. He goes for Palmar, who isn't really on anybody's shit list - it looks like he's just going for a target for others to bandwagon. Like what happened with sinani, he's using the "weak" and "filler" post attack to try to get others to agree. However the argument isn't mounted as clearly as the one against sinani was, and clearly no one is buying it.
Trying to mount another bandwagon is actually the only sensible ON could do as town. Looking at it from this perspective, he realizes he has nothing that clears him, so his best defense is trying to get somebody else lynched; He knows he's town and therefore any lynch helps town more than his lynch.
However why Palmar? Why not youngmiini? ON says he's been suspicious of YM for a while, he's been a vocal supporter of the argument against him and more importantly there are already other people that seem ready to support this vote. In fact I think youngmiini would make the most sense even if ON was scum.
The Palmar vote makes me think one of two things: either originalname has given up and is not trying, or he is scum along with youngmiini.
Because I STILL dont have a remotely solid reading on YM. I picked someone who I had a much more solid read on.
I'm sorry man but the arguments just don't make sense. If you pressure someone, you really do have to make it real pressure. You listed some reasons against me and then moved on. If I were scum, I could just ignore you and your accusations and be safe because you would just move on to someone else. I never felt pressured by your 'pressure' at any point during this game. I don't think you're scum though.
Thats why i kept on asking why you really pre-claimed your "innosence" when saying if sinani is green im green thingy - i tried to pressure - didnt seem like the rest of the town found that as scummy as I did - so i let it go, for now.
Your "defences" are just saying that the analysis or the points beeing made against you are bad - which is the easy way of course... cause you seem to get off the hook by just saying it.
Also Im not moving on, im just adding more people the the scumbox, i hink both you and ON are scummy - im insecure about varpulis, and unichan hasnt really got anything to say if hes scum or town - cause hes not posting anything. Thats what I'm trying to get him to do.
as for the rest, prplz, palmar, kav and dementrio and jeejee - theres absolutely no way to beeing certain that these guys are town - but as for now, it seems like atleast some of them are helping town in a good way, but ofcourse that could be easy to fake if you know townies are a bit confused :p
10 hours left in the day, still missing votes from JeeJee and unichan. OriginalName currently leading with 5 votes. If I missed any votes don't hesitate to let me know
On June 08 2011 13:57 youngminii wrote: ON, as someone who's slated to be lynched, I feel as if your methods are a little off putting. Why are you putting on heat against Palmar when you should be defending yourself? You kind of just ignored the accusations put against you and went straight for Palmar. Perhaps you're scum and you've given up and you're trying to confuse us before you die by creating/severing a connection between you and Palmar. Perhaps you're town and you genuinely think Palmar is scum.
Defend yourself, or you will be lynched.
Contributing like that is a good thing. Yes, he needs to also defend himself, but contributing by providing another (alternative) target is something that needs to be done if he wants to live. Besides, both jeejee and I have asked him to provide an alternative, so I don't see the general action as being odd.
@JeeJee: Just wanted to say...
Dumbest thing I've ever read. Number of reasons isn't ever relevant, it's the quality of the reasons that matter.
Yes. It was in response to you saying that there was no "majority" of reasons against sinani's lynch in his post. That was a really stupid anti-argument (as it was never about the majority, but the quality), so I answered it with a really stupid answer.
sometimes you just have to go along with the rest of the town's opinion
That is called sheeping, and it's bad town play, even day 1. If sinani is the clear leader in votes, why would he need to "go along with the rest of the town" ?
@OriginalName: What I want to hear you defend yourself against is your pre-lynch behavior. I agree with most of your points about the bandwagon, but I want to hear you explain why you voted Sinani when you clearly didn't think he was a good lynch.
On June 05 2011 11:13 Varpulis wrote: At least he's sharing his opinion and his reasons why.
On June 06 2011 01:41 Varpulis wrote: Sinani206 -Actively lurking, not providing opinion, posting lists in order to seem like he's contributing.
I wouldn't be so quick to disregard prplhz's analysis. He actually brought up a few really good points, he just emphasized the wrong ones. This is a really odd thing for you to say, and I agree with prplhz that the reasons that you gave for voting Sinani were very similar to the same reasons that he gave earlier (and to which you responded "Not sure how you came to the conclusion "this is scum" with that analysis.")
You were in my town book, but this is making me reconsider. I'll be look back through your posts, and I suggest that others do as well.
At this point, anyone that's not voting for ON will obviously be put under scrutiny if he flips red.
First, this is such a scum approach to things. It's quite akin to the "fine, when he flips green, town better lynch you" defense. Results don't decide someone's greenness or scummyness. Only reasons, posts and actions do. If ON flips red, that doesn't automatically make Kav/you green, and it doesn't make me red for defending ON. My reasons are solid, and Kav's aren't -- regardless of what ON flips. Likewise, if ON flips green, it doesn't make Kav/you red. It just makes you wrong. And hella suspect.
And surely since you played games before this, you know this. And yet, you write it anyway. Not for the first time this game either. Why?
This is the fourth major anti-town move you made this game. (for those too lazy to read my other posts: 1) supporting an anti-town claim plan (yet using results to claim it would be a good idea? are you kidding me? welcome to vivi-ville) 2) using results of d1 lynch to claim innocence 3) ignoring my counterargument for ON's lynch completely 4) this)
The fact that neither you, nor Kav have responded to the obvious flaws in Kav's argument, makes you both extremely scummy. Because by responding in detail, not only will the doubt of your analysis grow in others, but attract more attention to it. And we can't have that, now can we?
Unless of course, you count "lol get some coaching" as a valid response. For the record, I talked to Coach Ace, although apparently I am forbidden from putting his opinions in this thread, so I'm just writing this for completeness' sake.
@kav's latest post (is this supposed to address my concerns?)
Dumbest thing I've ever read. Number of reasons isn't ever relevant, it's the quality of the reasons that matter.
Yes. It was in response to you saying that there was no "majority" of reasons against sinani's lynch in his post. That was a really stupid anti-argument (as it was never about the majority, but the quality), so I answered it with a really stupid answer.
Does "There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him." sound familiar? It should, as it was the opening line of your argument. I don't bring shitty arguments out of nowhere; I shut them down.
I'm appealing to other townies here to reconsider this whole ill-conceived wagon on ON and instead vote for its suspect source: ##Vote:Kavdragon
I'm the only voice against this wagon -- shouldn't that tell you something? Either I'm the most obvious mafia in existence, taking on a huge risk to save my scumbuddy, or I'm using my head. When was the last time townies started to vote for a mafia on shoddy grounds, and the mafia were just like "oh okay let's let them do that, no problem".
I'm off to a tooth cleaning thingy (fml this is gonna suck) but just use your head and re-consider the motives behind what people are posting now.
You're absolutely right JeeJee, I don't disagree with your vote against Kav. Personally however, I think it is a misguided attempt at trying to find scum just because you think ON's lynch isn't justified.
I'm still of the belief that ON's lynch will give us more information than lynching anyone else can. I also think he's the most scummy in the town right now. If he flips green, I promise I'll support you in getting some answers from Kav.
I never said "lol get some coaching" was a valid response, in fact I told Kav not to say that type of stuff in game because it doesn't contribute anything towards scumhunting and just makes you look weaker to the newcomers when a more experienced player says it.
I'm the only voice against this wagon -- shouldn't that tell you something? Either I'm the most obvious mafia in existence, taking on a huge risk to save my scumbuddy, or I'm using my head
This may very well be true, but there is another option. Misguided town. If ON flips red I won't be blaming you because you do have the right intentions.
You're wrong about my argument being invalid, and you are starting to purposefully interpret things incorrectly.
The reason why I asked you to get coaching was because i was hoping that that person would tell you to let my accusations sit for a while, so that we could see the response from ON, NOT YOU. The response is pivotal to the strength of the lynch, and it screws with things when someone else is defending him.
You say that I haven't responded to your post, but I have responded to them line by line TWICE.
"There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him." THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE. There was more in that post explaining why sinani is a bad lynch then there was good. I was never talking about numbers untill you brought it up. It was always about the content. The reasons against Sinani's lynch are both better reasoned, and more convincing than the point that he brings against Sinani.
Quite honestly, if it hadn' been for the fact that you immediately jumped in and started defending ON, I would have backed off this morning, and looked for someone else, because i agree that the bandwagon came way too quickly. The fact that you are so hardcore defending someone is what is keeping me so suspicious.
In any case, critisize me for this next move all you want, but I think it's the best move for town, so I'm going to do it.
##Unvote: OriginalName
Yeah. There are a few major realizations that I had that lead me to believe that ON is innocent.
One: JeeJee is almost certainly not scum defending scum. This means that the only way that OriginalName is scum, is if he's being bussed. I've bussed ON myself, and this is NOT how he goes down. This is not a bus.
Two: The entire day has been REALLY quiet. If mafia had one of their own on the stand, they wouldn't be sitting back like this. Makes no sense. This feels like the mafia are just sitting back laughing at the bandwagon that is forming, and want us to not discuss it, so they are hanging back, and not talking much.
Like I said before, the response to pressure is huge, and I don't think that the reponse is saying scum. It's saying the opposite.
OriginalName is really scummy. I still hold to my arguments earlier. However, after pressuring him, and gauging the response by both him, and all the players, I think that even though he looks scummy, he is not scum.
What we need now is to find who we will lynch. Oh, and YM: Lynching for information is anti-town. It's tempting, i know but it's NOT how we do things.
I suggest Unichan as a an alternative. I'm looking thorough to build an argument (and to make sure that there really is one), but I can't be the only one doing work here. There are a lot of people who have been extremely inactive during day2 and I want to hear from them
For now, unless my research finds otherwise, ##Vote: Unichan
Right, I'm in norway now. fuck you guys have a lot of trees.
So here's what I think about the current situation.
My biggest suspicion at the moment sits on youngminii. I have a real problem with the way he approaches this game. He keeps threatening people with shortlists, while I think it's common knowledge that the best way for the town to function is getting independent opinions and drawing conclusions from that.
You see, I know it sounds crazy, but I have a weird hunch that if we flip ON, we will actually catch a scum. And I think he's being bussed. His defense is so weak, his attack on me is an attempt, but a weak one at that, on someone that he knew would be hard to get support for. Everything in the situation, from youngminii's absolute confidence that sinani206 would flip town, to his very confident calling of roles, smells of some kind of a plan.
Youngminii is the person I have problems with at the moment, and I would like to flip him. I'm putting my vote on him. but I will stay awake for a while, as I don't mind flipping ON either. I think his defense is weak, I think his arguments is weak and I think he smells of scum.
I know it seems weird, but if ON gets flipped, I'm going after youngminii, no matter if the flip is red or green.
unichan and stefftastiq are still being kind of inactive and not putting together any theories or analysis. I think we should urge them to step up and get more work done for town. I'm not sure what to think of Kavdragon.
I still think Varpulis and JeeJee are pro-town, but that might change. I don't like the fact that JeeJee went for kavdragon over youngminii, but I'm pretty sure I can't control that.
I'm going to try to get youngminii lynched tonight, my second post will contain my analysis of him.
First of all, sorry. I was a bit preoccupied these past few hours, so I don't have the alternative lynch ready ahead of time (a good idea when you pressure this heavy, this late). I'm sacrificing a little clarity for the speed that I need to get this out at, so pardon if my arguments seem a little weaker.
Look at how timid/indecisive he is in this post: "So far i don't see anything", "this is my first game", "I suppose I'll have to make a decision". Not that townies can't be timid, but let's save that little fact for later. + Show Spoiler +
On June 05 2011 12:17 unichan wrote: OKAY OKAY I am back. I see that some people have already tagged me as the lurker, but I just happened to luck into not having internet access for the first 24 hours of the game. Day one lynches seem to be out of the blue too, so any evidence we use is going to be a huge stretch. So far I don't see anything suspicious enough to warrant me identifying them as scum, but as time draws to a close I suppose I'll have to make a final decision. This is my first game though, and I'm not 100% sure what to look out for =(
I agree with the guy above, most first day posts might seem to look like fluff posts simply because there isn't that much to talk about
Again, he is very timid with is posting. "Seems kind of weird", "seems funny to me", "Palmar is a better bet in this situation, IMO" Again, this is fishy (even for a new townie) but not enough to call out scum by. + Show Spoiler +
On June 05 2011 13:35 unichan wrote: Okay, thanks for the advice. Palmar seems kind of weird - he starts out by asking for a veteran claim, which doesn't seem like such a good idea to me. (reasons for this have been posted previously) Also, Mataza posts something to refute him right after that and Palmar is immediately like LYNCH HIM and is all over him, which seems funny to me. Mataza doesn't seem too scummy to me from his posts so far, Palmar is a better bet in this situation IMO
More: Notice how he keeps talking about how he is new, and he's unsure... This was the very first scumtell I learned from Ver's analysis of XXX. New townies don't post like they are terrified. This timidness is begining to look more like newb scum. (At the start, it's understandable, but the repeated references to his newb status and timidness are a scum tell)
I'm a shy poster generally, not just here - this is my first game and I really haven't found my comfort zone yet, as usual I'm scared of saying something retarded and people jumping on me
Notice how all his reads have been "feels weird", "is a little strange". Very timid right? How about this? Boom. Gone. He posts the exact same reasons that have been posted many times before, and then votes without a hint of that hesitancy about him. The action is called sheeping, and the language, in context, is called scum speak.
On June 06 2011 06:07 unichan wrote: Useless no content posts, hasn't showed up to defend himself yet, and I don't have a vote right now whoops ##Vote sinani206
Also that should be only one count for youngminii, right?
Again, look at the change in attitude! He is bold, and forward with this, it's very different than his previous posting.
On June 06 2011 09:25 sinani206 wrote: It doesn't matter who I vote for because I'm going to die. Whatever. GG. I was Veteran.
Sounds like a last ditch effort to save himself
Back to the timid posting. It doesn't take very long after the lynch for him to start appologising for his actions. He points at some meta post and says he fell for it, but he didn't mention it at all earlier. Again, this is classic newb scum behavior.
On June 07 2011 10:33 unichan wrote: I'm sorry about jumping on the sinani bandwagon guys, that was bad of me. I read his soft vet claim as him trying to look like a vet so we would get off his back, that was hella noob of me to not even consider that he would be vet himself. I also fell for that meta post somewhere back that said he had generally been more helpful than this.
This post was interesting, and I actually responded to it at first, but it's still bugging me.+ Show Spoiler +
On June 07 2011 11:53 unichan wrote: The reason why I didn't say anything about ON early on was because I had nothing to say about him. I'm assuming he didn't mention me either because I only came up in discussions about inactive/useless posters. The only thing I noticed about him was that he supported a vet claim earlier + Show Spoiler +
I'm gonna echo Hesmyrr's request: explain ... what ton of information we get from vet claiming? It's a bad plan especially when roleblockers can block vet extra life, I can't possibly see what town would gain from vet-claim.
I think I can answer this instead of Palmer.
1. We get none, we have a free target for scum to avoid ASSUMING WE HAVE A VET.
2. Said "confirmed" townie could be scum trying to control us and avoid his lynch. We also could have no vet making counterclaiming irrelevant furthering his position.
3. It creates more Wifom (see 2)
4. Claiming in a closed setup unless about to be lynched is a pointless undertaking. We have no way of confirmed outside of death and a sane DT who could also be fakeclaiming.
which looked scummy to me, but I didn't actually start posting content and understanding why a vet claim would be stupid until later, and I didn't catch this until today when I was rereading the thread. To be honest I didn't understand the case against ON at all, the one vs sinani was 10x more clearcut (fluffy posts derp derp easy lynch), and made more sense to me at the time. So yes, it was bandwagoning, but that was because I didn't see any compelling reason to vote for anyone else.
He tries to pin this on ON as if he were supporting the vet claim, when it is very clearly arguing against it! The more I read it, the less I think that he was confused, and the more I think he was just trying too hard to read ON as scum. This doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense in a way that benefits mafia if ON is indeed innocent as I now believe.
More timid play, practically apologizing for himself. + Show Spoiler +
On June 08 2011 17:04 unichan wrote: I'm a bit more reluctant to jump on the bandwagon this time - we all saw how the last pressure bandwagon turned out. That being said, OriginalName's defense isn't very strong. He has enough votes on him for pressure now, and they probably won't be taken off any time soon looking through his recent posts. He goes for Palmar, who isn't really on anybody's shit list - it looks like he's just going for a target for others to bandwagon. Like what happened with sinani, he's using the "weak" and "filler" post attack to try to get others to agree. However the argument isn't mounted as clearly as the one against sinani was, and clearly no one is buying it.
Unichan displays very typical new scum player behavior, and has lurked perhaps more than any other player. He has given a few reads, but they are so timid that it's hard to tell what he actually thinks. He has lurked very hard day2, which is exactly what i would expect scum to do given an innocent is the only real lynch target. (If you read this analysis, then you read all but three of his posts)
Unichan is a better lynch than OriginalName right now. Please pull your votes off of ON.
I don't think you are going to get the support to lynch me today. I'm not asking you to shelve your suspicion, but vote for someone who might actually be lynched. What you are doing is essentially abstaining. I know you don't want to lynch ON, so vote Unichan, or if you think my analysis is weak, find someone else who we can lynch in stead.
@Palmar:
I YM has varied from town to scum several times in my book, (currently scum) but I don't think the town is willing to lynch him yet. I'll be interested in your analysis, but even he looks just as scummy as unichan, he's a more experienced and active player, and I think that unichan is the better lynch today.
On June 05 2011 03:29 youngminii wrote: Originalname you shouldn't be speaking for palmar. Let him speak for himself and we'll judge how scummy his actions/response is. I mean by speaking for him it kind of looks like you're helping him, and it's way too early to be defending people, considering we have almost no information.
As for the vet claiming, I'm all for it if the entire town can get behind it. If the vet is a liar, I think we'll figure it out eventually as the days go on. If the vet dies first night because of a roleblock + hit, then we'll know that there is a roleblocker in the game. I don't see the downsides outweighing the advantages to this.
Very Minor Scumtell: He agrees to a plan that is bad for town. Claiming vet early is just not a good idea, I don't understand how disabling someone's role for a 50/50 chance of getting town is justifiable. It's like asking for a townie claim on day one, except, asking for a townie claim would be a better idea.
Still, being wrong isn't a crime. But there's more coming
youngminii had a little row with me on day 1. Most of it was him defending sinani, while I was attacking sinani. Thing is, I don't believe that prior to sinani soft-claiming veteran, that anything sinani said was strong enough to absolve him of being scum. My analysis was basically that all he had done for town was posting lists and randomly voting an inactive, which cannot be a flawed analysis.
The entire situation smells of youngminii knowing something that he shouldn't know.
On June 06 2011 10:28 youngminii wrote: Guys if you won't listen to logic, can you at least listen to math? IF, IF Sinani is vet, then we will be losing a pretty big town power role. Honestly, do you really want to risk that instead of waiting one more day for a confirmation?
Most, if not all, of the mafia would definitely agree with the lynch on Sinani (assuming he is vet). Don't get caught up in the bandwagoning imo.
man if sinani ends up being scum i'm never gonna play mafia ever again
This is actually a good post, at the point this is written I had stated repeatedly that I thought youngminii was town. I agreed with this reasoning, I switched my vote. And somehow youngminii decided that those actions made me scum, and cleared him.
It's basically backwards reasoning. He defended a player that had no defense. He then goes rampant when we lynch him, as it will somehow make him immune to suspicion. Everything about youngminii's play smells of someone who knows too much for his own good.
On June 06 2011 11:03 youngminii wrote: sinani, you played pretty terribly, not for the reasons everyone else is saying (well kinda)
you should definitely have a bit more content in your posts, you made yourself a very, very easy target. you shouldn't EVER give up with a "whatever" attitude, you should be defending yourself to the end. your entire defence was mounted by me, and that's just unacceptable. you can't rely on having someone else risk their reputation to save you just because they think you're not scum. you have to mass appeal to everyone else.
in any case, this sucks. palmar and prplhz on huge fos because they (warning: theory) both tried to absolve themselves in the end, realising that they were about to lynch a vet and didn't want to have their hands covered in blood
Seriously? you make a bad defense for him, and then you attack the people that still rally to your side when Sinani206 actually defends himself by posting a tiny bit of content and claiming vet.
On June 06 2011 11:33 youngminii wrote: Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially:
Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured.
It's a (surprisingly) good thought.
In general, at least the way I play cop, there's 2 things I look at 1) Someone that the town finds suspicious. I put you up as a cop check because I find you suspicious
2) The other good candidate is someone that's really active. It's pretty obvious that the most active people stir and lead discussion, and if they're mafia, it's very easy to lead the town astray. So someone like Palmar as you mentioned might be a good choice as well. This choice is inherently more risky of course, since mafia are also looking to kill off these people, so the cop might end up wasting their check, but it's a good approach nonetheless. I'd put this as a higher risk/reward option.
Well I mean, if the town is coordinating the detective check, mafia is probably going to (OH GOD I'M GONNA MAKE WIFOM) kill the person we agree to check. I mean if they don't, they're just stupid.
In any case, I'm going to lean on the fact that I defended sinani from the start to remove any suspicions on me for now. I don't know exactly why you think I'm suspicious and I don't really want to know right now (in favour of other discussion) so try to look at the fact that I defended sinani, sinani flipped blue, and postpone your suspicion on me.
I think the general consensus is to check Palmar for now, hopefully it turns out to be eventful.
@OriginalName I think Mataza is pretty scummy and flying under the radar to be honest, no point in acting on this yet though.
Thanks for absolving yourself of any suspicion. This is the first post that actually made me start re-thinking about it. I know he attacks Mataza who ends up getting murdered. youngminii also agrees with originalname here, although I'm not sure what this means.
Early day 2, youngminii starts out by voting for originalname. This is important for later.
Here is the post that made me go... oooohhhh noo. That's just not cool
On June 08 2011 06:32 youngminii wrote: Funny how if we actually went through with the plan we wouldn't have lost our vet, but that's just derailment and I won't discuss that.
Kav, don't flame him like that during the game. Leave that for endgame discussion.
At this point, anyone that's not voting for ON will obviously be put under scrutiny if he flips red.
@Dementrio: Yes I've backed off Palmar quite a bit, steff/unichan/prplhz are all scum candidates too. My gut tells me steff is just an overeager town, but that could apply to both the others too.
@Prplhz: Your pressure against Varpulis is stupid. None of those reasons are scumworthy and you are guilty of the last line of reasoning yourself. I kind of don't like how you're just completely avoiding voting for ON, but I mean if you both really were scum you'd probably be trying to lynch an actual lynch candidate instead of randomly pressuring Varpulis.
What vexes me right now is that other than ON, the highest number of votes on anyone is 1. Either scum knows ON is done for and is bussing him or they're extremely uncoordinated. I don't like how unichan and JeeJee are abstaining their votes until later, they could be just waiting until the last moment in case another lynch candidate pops up. I'm going to say JeeJee's doing this out of bad play, and unichan is the more suspicious one.
Note: Palmar has posted contentless content again for the past few posts. Keep an eye on him.
I have a huge problem with the "agree with me or you're scum" approach. If you take the thinking away from people and hand the reins over to some kind of a leader, the you're not doing the town any good. The only way to catch scum is for everyone to chime in and explain their reasons.
Note: you're actually advocating bandwagoning.
You're trying to take an unjustified leadership in town.
and finally, just a minor contradiction:
On June 09 2011 06:15 youngminii wrote: You're absolutely right JeeJee, I don't disagree with your vote against Kav. Personally however, I think it is a misguided attempt at trying to find scum just because you think ON's lynch isn't justified.
I'm still of the belief that ON's lynch will give us more information than lynching anyone else can. I also think he's the most scummy in the town right now. If he flips green, I promise I'll support you in getting some answers from Kav.
I never said "lol get some coaching" was a valid response, in fact I told Kav not to say that type of stuff in game because it doesn't contribute anything towards scumhunting and just makes you look weaker to the newcomers when a more experienced player says it.
I'm the only voice against this wagon -- shouldn't that tell you something? Either I'm the most obvious mafia in existence, taking on a huge risk to save my scumbuddy, or I'm using my head
This may very well be true, but there is another option. Misguided town. If ON flips red I won't be blaming you because you do have the right intentions.
He ragged on me earlier for wanting to lynch for information, yet he claims that's a good reason to lynch ON now?
Also, the "I'm not blaming you if he flips red" is one of those things that I just don't like. Conditional reasoning for suspecting people. This still gives me the feeling he knows too much.
Yeah - my vote was already on him - because I hoped more people to look into him and Kav actually did :D
Altho I also hoped unichan atleast would try to do an effort to claim his innosence!
My vote remains for him for now, seeing no reason to change it...
ON and YM are stil scummy too.
Ill read through the last posts a bit more to see if theres anything I can put together to contribute as well, without really recycling JeeJee and Kavs posts..
On June 09 2011 07:34 Palmar wrote: oh, and I still think ON is scum, I just think he's getting bussed.
wrong format btw:
##Unvote OriginalName ##Vote youngminii
... how does that REMOTELY make sense.
If I was getting bussed chances are nothing would have been said and I would not have even remotely tried. I would have died and given NO INFORMATION. The number rule of scum play IS TO NOT GIVE INFORMATION. Seriously dude stop tunneling me.
I'm willing however to move over to Unichan however in this case its mostly just to save my own hide.
@OriginalName: What I want to hear you defend yourself against is your pre-lynch behavior. I agree with most of your points about the bandwagon, but I want to hear you explain why you voted Sinani when you clearly didn't think he was a good lynch.
I voted Sinani because I felt that he was the best lynch under the circumstances BUT was still a very very weak lynch. I didnt feel that anyone could be successfully pushed at that point in the day so I went along with it. In the long run though it was just poor play.
You said that you were gonna receive some flack and here you have some. I think you prematurely took your vote away from OriginalName. If there was one thing that this town learned on day1 it's that you don't just lynch the first bandwagon. So why would OriginalName really feel pressured day2 when he was the first bandwagon? Why would scum feel pressured? I think scum was pretty confident that he was not gonna get it, the town would bow out in the end, not having the balls to do the same "mistake" twice in a row. You should really have hung in there until the end, or at least until very much closer to the end. You can't just say "Hey fellas, check this shit out; I'm gonna vote for someone and then the scum will go batshit crazy, just you watch!" and then expect it to happen within a couple of hours. And if you want it to happen then you gotta be more serious than removing your vote almost five hours before deadline.
Because of these reasons I think that your decision to remove your vote from OriginalName is quite poor, at least for the time being.
Right now it looks like a bandwagon for unichan is forming and while I don't think that he is scum. I am pretty sure that he is just a new guy trying to get into that game and he's putting some effort into it too. Also I think that at this point everybody is so active that if we really put some pressure on unichan, he cannot hide behind inactivity. He will have to post and with limited experience in this game he will break. I don't think the same thing goes for OriginalName or at least he will be much harder to read. But the absolute worst thing is that I think that this town is thinking "Man, you can't jump on first bandwagon, so I guess we just have to jump on the second one!", removing all pressure from OriginalName again. So here goes for more pressure on the scummy OriginalName, I'm still not satisfied with how much you've been sweating.
##Vote OriginalName
And I don't know if I'll have time to check in on this thread again before deadline so good luck with that.
Also I totally forgot, my vote for Varpulis was not doing anything at this point, I was at the time hoping that we could get a real thriller going with 5 votes for each of these guys and scum biting their nails or sitting back and relaxing and town getting some good reads, but that was not destined to happen.
@prplhz Yeah, I was hoping for more spread votes as well.
@unichan what up man - you around?
@OriginalName
My Defense:
Id like to first of all point out some similarities between today and yesterday:
-This bandwagon is being formed rediculously easily. -Most people are sheeping of the reasons of one person.
half the players are suspicious of you man.
-They will if I go through both be silly mislynches.
Im going to focus on the first point mainly.
In this case the most coherently explained and analysed non-sheeping opinion is from Kavdragon. He took what he thought to be scum and organised and presented it. He honestly succeded in scaring the metaphorical crap out of me. I dont deal with pressure well and came up with a shoddy defense.
Therefore I after I basically had the majority of town gunning for me I panicked but Ive come to realize that theres no reason it should have happenes that fast. Sure JeeJee tryed to defend me but lets face the fact that it justs looks like a scumbuddy trying to save me. However if I were scum why put that risk to try to save me? Im have the most heat on me atm if it were me Would have kept my trap shut and bussed.
There is one thing that is 100% certain - if you and him were town, he can not know for certain that your not scum.
I then chose to throw another lynch candidate out there. I chose to do this to try to give another option to us but I did not explain that at all as you can clearly see.
So now I really have no idea what to do, I'm having a hard enough time articulating what im trying to say at the moment, as such if there is anything specific youd like addressed please ask. I have absolutely nothing to hide from town.
seems like quite a few players -including- originalname switched his vote for unichan (would scum vote for their own?) - so right now I feel originalname is a safer lynch.
On June 09 2011 07:41 OriginalName wrote: I'm willing however to move over to Unichan however in this case its mostly just to save my own hide.
Okay I'm #1 new bandwagon now since you failed to start your own by attacking a player with weak evidence
Because not posting is #1 scum behavior? lol I wasn't posting because I was terrified of getting lynched, I was posting timidly because I was new, had already missed half of day 1, and was afraid of posting something retarded. Obviously I did end up posting something retarded, by way of misinterpreting someone's post. This was when I was trying to get more involved because people were pressuring me too, and then I fucked up and I felt like an idiot, which is why I didn't want to make any more long posts, because I don't want to get laughed at again. I guess in my first game I should be more bold and try to learn better, but that didn't really work out for me. Staying shy and timid doesn't seem to work either. Saying things with phrases like "seems like" or "is kind of" is something I've always done - I get my papers back from my English teacher telling me to use stronger verbs, nothing new here. Even now I don't want to make a longer post with analysis and quotes - I've tried to start a couple earlier but I always deleted it before posting, which is why I haven't really been posting anything at all.
On June 09 2011 08:40 prplhz wrote: You should really have hung in there until the end, or at least until very much closer to the end.
Wrong. It takes time for people to move. I let it sit for almost 48hrs and you think that's not enough? If you leave it for the last few minutes no one will change their votes that late. Seriously prplhz, look at what the town did. There was no discussion. Scum want us to lynch OriginalName.
PLEASE PEOPLE. I'm 99% sure that OriginalName is just a bad townie. Quite honestly, I should have stopped pushing this earlier, but it took me too long to see what the town was doing.
1 and a half hours left in the day. OriginalName currently leading with 5 votes unichan has yet to vote. If I missed any votes don't hesitate to let me know
yeah - i know my vote has been all over the place now, it will seem scummy any way I put it - as for miniii/originalname/unichan its tbh same with me who goes tonight as long as it is a town decision - right now i feel they are about the same amount of scummy, thats basicly why I'm having a hard time to decide.
OriginaName: I actually moved my vote from unichan and back to you just based on that you changed your vote from Palmar to unichan, which I stated earlier.
Who do you think are the most scummy player(s) - and why?
and scum are really the only ones who should worry about what to post - townies doesnt have to lie.
Right now? OriginalName didn't react very well to his pressure. He went for a bandwagon attempt on Palmar that seemed weird and out of place, with weak reasoning (as I said before, he is trying to go for the same reason that got sinani lynched, that he is just posting a bunch of "filler" posts). As soon as he saw that bandwagon failed he panicked + Show Spoiler +
On June 08 2011 15:40 OriginalName wrote: My Defense:
Id like to first of all point out some similarities between today and yesterday:
-This bandwagon is being formed rediculously easily. -Most people are sheeping of the reasons of one person. -They will if I go through both be silly mislynches.
Im going to focus on the first point mainly.
In this case the most coherently explained and analysed non-sheeping opinion is from Kavdragon. He took what he thought to be scum and organised and presented it. He honestly succeded in scaring the metaphorical crap out of me. I dont deal with pressure well and came up with a shoddy defense.
Therefore I after I basically had the majority of town gunning for me I panicked but Ive come to realize that theres no reason it should have happenes that fast. Sure JeeJee tryed to defend me but lets face the fact that it justs looks like a scumbuddy trying to save me. However if I were scum why put that risk to try to save me? Im have the most heat on me atm if it were me Would have kept my trap shut and bussed.
I then chose to throw another lynch candidate out there. I chose to do this to try to give another option to us but I did not explain that at all as you can clearly see.
So now I really have no idea what to do, I'm having a hard enough time articulating what im trying to say at the moment, as such if there is anything specific youd like addressed please ask. I have absolutely nothing to hide from town.
and when he saw me as the next potential bandwagon he immediately jumped on it.
On June 09 2011 07:34 Palmar wrote: oh, and I still think ON is scum, I just think he's getting bussed.
wrong format btw:
##Unvote OriginalName ##Vote youngminii
... how does that REMOTELY make sense.
If I was getting bussed chances are nothing would have been said and I would not have even remotely tried. I would have died and given NO INFORMATION. The number rule of scum play IS TO NOT GIVE INFORMATION. Seriously dude stop tunneling me.
I'm willing however to move over to Unichan however in this case its mostly just to save my own hide.
##Unvote Palmer [b]##Vote Unichan
No reasoning, just saying that he wants to save himself. I don't really get what he's saying about giving no information. If there's a lynch attempt for you, and you're not trying to defend yourself, then obviously you're going to end up getting lynched. What information have you given anyways? All you've done in response to this pressure is make that useless case for Palmar ._.
And I still have to worry about what to post though, so people don't point out my idiotic mistakes and make me feel derpy =( I'll read back through the thread again and look for more scum targets, but my posts always take a hell of a long time to assemble so I hope it's in time for people to read it before the 10 pm deadline. I tried to take notes in google docs before but I ended up misreading them so I gave up on that idea, lol.
Not really OriginalName's list that convinced me otherwise, I think that was a bit of a townie demoralized accepting response 'cause some other dude changes his vote RIGHT after mine to make the OriginalName lynch almost unavoidable. More it was Kavdragon insuring me that he does not have a scum read on OriginalName anymore and I very much think that Kavdragon has been only townie so far and I kinda trust his judgement of all of this 'cause I haven't been able to follow the game too closely for the last couple of days. Kavdragon's original reason for changing votes also applies a lot more now I think.
Also about the bandwagon analysis, it is total shit. First day I voted for sinani206 before anybody else and I stayed on him because he was acting scummy as hell. Today I had a perfectly safe vote on Varpulis but I chose to change my vote to pressure you. And about me claiming to be away until after the lynch, then my pressure would really not make sense. You pressure to see how people react so you can counter-react.
##Vote unichan
The guy is a better lynch for today. I know there are enough townies out there please realize that Kavdragon is maybe the most pro-town player we have and I can personally only strongly take up to consideration whatever he says (even though I still think you removed pressure from OriginalName prematurely). And I take full responsibility for this vote too, I'm not brushing anything off onto Kavdragon.
Oh yeah, another person I was suspicious about was Varpulis. Day 1 he changed his vote like 5 times on the basis mostly of lynching lurkers (which he said he wanted to do in the beginning - most lurkers day 1 are probably going to be townies anyways), and in the end he just jumped on the bandwagon for sinani. Either he's an extremely indecisive townie or he's scum trying to get all over the place.
OriginalName, read. I said EXAMPLE, because I wanted to explain how scumhunting works to someone who has no clue. I could have said Palmar dies and then I get suspicious. Seriously read plz.
yet your example made no sense whatsoever, and is almost entirely WifoM. That's not how scumhunting works. What hesmyrr is doing is how scumhunting works. Analyzing posting and content, not blindly looking at who died and who was talking about them. That can lead you to scum, but does not help identify them.
The argument "he died so she is suspicious" is terrible.
##vote mataza step it up.
^ Mataza wasn't lurking, this was after a bout of activity where he disagreed with wanting to lynch a day1 lurker in his first post.. + Show Spoiler +
On June 05 2011 05:27 Varpulis wrote: Guys, my vote on mataza is pressure. His posting seemed a little off, and I wanted to see how he reacted to the votes. His reaction so far has been alright, though "go ahead an lynch me" isn't a good attitude. He still needs to step up his posting, but i don't have a read on him yet.
Back to the lurkers! This is stefftasiq's only post this game. He was sleeping when the day post came, I get that, but he hasn't posted again since.
He says that mataza playing differently is "interesting" and that sinani's "have not posted" list (which he was on) could be a way to divert attention from sinani. It's a bad post with very little content.
On June 05 2011 10:21 prplhz wrote: Okay I'm gonna see if I can do two things at the same time and get both a lurker and a scum.
sinani206 The guy has had 7 posts so far one "hi" post, two posts listing inactive people, two math posts, one posts where he says he's rather lynch lurkers over the scummiest player and then one single post that has any content at all; one where he asks Varpulis if he didn't change his mind rather fast.
7 posts, no content at all. This is a guy desperately trying to be active while desperately not trying to attract any attention at all. This is scum.
##Vote sinani206
Not damning evidence by any means. At least he's sharing his opinion and his reasons why. Does seem a bit sheepy though. Not sure how you came to the conclusion "this is scum" with that analysis.
Frankly, there's not enough information on the table to properly identify scum, i think. You could say that half the players in this game are trying to be active without content. It seems to me that you really wanted to find somebody scummy, so you picked a person and figured out how is posts could be interpreted as scummy.
Lynching an inactive is good and all, but it's better to lynch the one in that group that's the least active, rather than one that's just posting fluff. We can leave them for later.
^ Oh look lol and who did he end up voting for in the end
On June 05 2011 14:36 Varpulis wrote: alright, stefftastiq's at least making an effort now. I'd be interested to see his posts when he's not drunk and tired. Get some rest steff! If you don't contribute tomorrow this vote's right back on you.
It seems that we're out of lurkers. Everybody has at least posted something. Once more time passes we'll see who isn't super active, but for now it's back to pressuring.
##unvote stefftastiq ##vote Palmar
step it up, Palmar.
^ Has moved off of the lurker who is no longer lurking onto Palmar (I have no problems with this, just pointing out yet another vote change) + Show Spoiler +
On June 06 2011 00:14 Varpulis wrote: Palmar's back and posting well. good. Most of his points make sense to me. Sinani needs to step it up as well. He has 13 posts since the game began, and only 1 with real content, and that was joining the bandwagon on stefftastiq and parroting what the rest of us gave as reasons. My vote ends up on him at the end of today if he doesn't start posting better.
Meanwhile, i found another lurker. Kavdragon has yet to post his opinion about anybody. He advocates lynching lurkers to the extent that we should "focus on lurkers" today instead of pressure and discuss. The only thing going for him is that he shot down the discussion starter vet claim plan.
He said that he won't be lurking, I'd like him to prove it.
On June 06 2011 06:19 Varpulis wrote: Alright, my vote on OriginalName is accomplishing nothing at this point. He needs to step up his posting or I'll be gunning for him later. [red]sinani206[/red
On June 06 2011 05:31 sinani206 wrote: OK, now that that's settled, I am staying with my vote on stefftastiq for reasons that I have already stated. What else do you want me to say?
In this post, he pretends that he doesn't know what he was expected to post. I call bullshit. He's avoiding posting an opinion and hiding behind his lurker vote. At this point, he's playing to a scum objective, by lurking actively and not giving us quality posts to analyze.
##unvote OriginalName ##vote sinani206 As an aside, i've got a major noobtown read on stefftastiq atm.
And here is where he finally goes on sinani despite what he said before (about not lynching someone just posting fluff) and claims that he didn't switch his vote because he got back late even though he tried to switch the bandwagon to ON at the last minute which wasn't going to work because it was too last minute. It looks like he's trying to throw his vote around without actually doing anything, which looks very scummy. Sorry there's one liner stuff under all the quotes I want to get this posted ASAP
Like i said, I have no better reason for voting for originalname that for unichan since they both seem scummy - I have no problem chaning back - unichan is the least active player anyways - and his post seemed a bit like hes been giving up?
##Unvote ##Vote unichan
Altho I probably wouldnt have changed this vote if it werent for Kav and prplhz - so if unichan turns up green that would be pretty shitty...
On the other hand - weve heard little from varpulis and jeejee the last hours.
Why are you posting an analysis on Varpulis 50 minutes before deadline when he's not up for lynch at all? While your post might be useful, it is totally misplace chronologically.
You seriously need to man the fuck up. This bandwagoner attitude is not helping anybody and you can't keep trying to be a noob forever. You vote for somebody because you think that they are scummy, you can't just brush it off on somebody else with your "oh but those guys did it!". This is seriously terrible townie behavior and if I hadn't seen your play in SNMMII and known that you bandwagon to the very last, I'd seriously have some questions about your fears of committing and taking responsibility of your actions.
Come on people, deadline is 11pm in america, hardly past any of your guys' bedtimes and most of the europeans are oddly enough usually awake even though it's 4am here.
OriginalName has been playing weirdly but unless Kavdragon is scum, they have just thrown him under the bus. Scum don't do that, thus he is not scum.
Not really OriginalName's list that convinced me otherwise, I think that was a bit of a townie demoralized accepting response 'cause some other dude changes his vote RIGHT after mine to make the OriginalName lynch almost unavoidable. More it was Kavdragon insuring me that he does not have a scum read on OriginalName anymore and I very much think that Kavdragon has been only townie so far and I kinda trust his judgement of all of this 'cause I haven't been able to follow the game too closely for the last couple of days. Kavdragon's original reason for changing votes also applies a lot more now I think.
Also about the bandwagon analysis, it is total shit. First day I voted for sinani206 before anybody else and I stayed on him because he was acting scummy as hell. Today I had a perfectly safe vote on Varpulis but I chose to change my vote to pressure you. And about me claiming to be away until after the lynch, then my pressure would really not make sense. You pressure to see how people react so you can counter-react.
##Vote unichan
The guy is a better lynch for today. I know there are enough townies out there please realize that Kavdragon is maybe the most pro-town player we have and I can personally only strongly take up to consideration whatever he says (even though I still think you removed pressure from OriginalName prematurely). And I take full responsibility for this vote too, I'm not brushing anything off onto Kavdragon.
Okay I'm not going to deny that my analysis was shit because some of it was stuff I was making up to try harder. I wanted to make an opinion about everyone and that was my opinion about you at the time. So you're switching your vote to me just because the seemingly most pro-town player says that ON doesn't looks like scum to him anymore, looks like you're just sheeping your future mayor lol
Anyways the one thing that my veteran player pal told me was that last minute bandwagon OP (as right now it looks like I'm going to get lynched since a couple of you have switched over already), there's not much I can do except these desperate posts like sinani was doing before he got lynched. Once I turn up green you'll realize that I am just a bad inexperienced player who should have joined a noob game first (like mafia XL or the last mini one) instead of coming to this one and not knowing what the hell to do =.=
@prplhz I'll man up, np - I just want to get the right man - and not be screwed over by beeing played into some mafia scum plan again and left out by the ones not posting anything (which was what happened in SNMMII)
if its ON or Unichan - like I said, I honestly dont care - Kav said he was 99% he was noob town - I'll give ON that chance - even tho I think he is scum.
I think you're doing pretty well, it's like 5-6 votes to 3 on you or something like that, don't hold me up on that.
Also stop playing the noob card, you're no more noob than anybody else here, you're just playing the noob card a lot more. Look at who I got lynched on day1, my only vote for a scum ever was a lucky shot on day1 in my first game, and I didn't even think the guy was a scum.
And how the hell do you know that Kavdragon is not playing you into some mafia scum plan again? You seriously need to get an opinion of your own and not just try to adopt the opinion of the guy who, in other people's opinion, is townie. This "I don't care who gets lynched" is not playing to win, and it pretty much says in the OP "Play to win.". So play to win, instead of playing not to lose.
Man I don't believe that nobody but a norwegian, a dane and the dude who people should shift their votes to are around just before deadline. I just don't buy that shit, townies speak the hell up.
ON should have 4 now since I voted, and since you two moved to me I should have 4 also. I'm playing the noob card only because it's the real response I have to "why did you say something retarded and obviously wrong". I mean I don't have any other reason for saying something stupid, so it's hard to explain it any other way. I guess we all learn more the more we play then, and this is my first game, and I don't think it's anybody else here's first game
A more correct response could be "I didn't say something stupid, why the hell are you saying that what I said was stupid when it isn't? Are you derailing or do you just have a different look on everything that I do because you are of a different alignment?" or maybe "Yea you're right on that dude I just forgot to consider this and that in my analysis, but with you additions I think we have a strong case on this or that dude" .. There are many pro-town constructive ways you can handle criticism instead of saying "Yea I suck".
But yea everybody has a first game and I sure as hell messed up my first game. Did just about every mistake anybody can imagine and then I also did those in the next game I played. I just think that both you and everybody else would be better off if you didn't play the noob card all the time.
Unless you are scum as I suspect, in which case you can just die.
Btw, I'm gonna count those god damn votes right now.
@prplhz you changed your vote of the same reason man, chill.
i think they both are scum - kav might be too - ive been swapping votes between unichan,ym and on to see what happends all day long - just trying out strategies - hoping to call out the scum.
Kav made a few excellent posts - He might have seen the game was full of noobs and flexed his skills to shape the game the way scum wanted it - if unichan or on, whoever gets lynched turn up to be green, kav should probably be looked into a bit more... there is no room for that just now?
you mention an excellent point about the timezones since americans are pretty much -always- calling eu people inactive as soon as we are sleeping or whatever, but now both you, me and palmar (Atleast just recently) were here and its 4AM - while the evening people seem to be gone
dementrio, varpulis and jeejee all seem to be quite silent.
A more correct response could be "I didn't say something stupid, why the hell are you saying that what I said was stupid when it isn't? Are you derailing or do you just have a different look on everything that I do because you are of a different alignment?" or maybe "Yea you're right on that dude I just forgot to consider this and that in my analysis, but with you additions I think we have a strong case on this or that dude" .. There are many pro-town constructive ways you can handle criticism instead of saying "Yea I suck".
But yea everybody has a first game and I sure as hell messed up my first game. Did just about every mistake anybody can imagine and then I also did those in the next game I played. I just think that both you and everybody else would be better off if you didn't play the noob card all the time.
Unless you are scum as I suspect, in which case you can just die.
Btw, I'm gonna count those god damn votes right now.
GMarshal did it for you Okay I'll explain why I put you on my scum list earlier - my first instinct was that scum would try to start a bandwagon on a townie because they want to get them killed. I didn't think of the fact that this would raise suspicion on them since they wouldn't start a bandwagon on someone flipping red - a townie I guess would be the one most likely to start the bandwagon because they would want to help the town, and the scum would jump on it later. If the person to be lynched was fellow scum they would jump on it last minute since their fellow scum is going to die anyways but they don't want to be accused of holding out on fellow scum vote. If the person to be lynched was not fellow scum they would jump on it early for security. At least that's how I see it now, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Okay I'll chill ... No need to get all upset or anything.
And yea it's a bit sad that there are more europeans around at these hours than americans. I just don't buy that, but it's impossible to know which americans are around when nobody is posting ... And they're certainly not all scum.
Really sorry about my silence, guys. I've had exams all week and am graduating tomorrow, been busier than expected. My schedule clears up after graduation, though, so you can expect activity closer to what I was doing over the weekend.
It had been a long day filled with tension. The villagers had grown more desperate, throwing accusations much more readily than the previous day. The finger pointing was rampant but still consensus could not be achieved. Once again they came to decision time divided and had to choose a likely target.
OriginalName was visiting the grave of Foolishness in search of inspiration. He was sick of the arguing, sick of the fear, sick of the tension. How simple things used to be, when all he needed to worry about was keeping his cattle well fed and making it to the tavern before closing time. He stared down at the simple, hastily cut gravestone, covered in the beautiful red flowers that were grown by one of the families in the village. It was in some ways an insult to the old shepherd that something this unglamorous marked his resting place, for he had shown himself to be an incredible individual. But perhaps, OriginalName thought to himself, something simple would be what their guardian would have wanted. He lived a simple life and only revealed his extraordinary talents when truly was the hour of need. If only he was still alive to lead the villagers still.
Suddenly he heard a rush of movement from the town square. A mob carrying torches and pitchforks surrounded him, trampling violently over the graves nearby. “Where were you during the discussions? You did nothing to help! You’re anti-town! You must be Mafia!” OriginalName protested. The bickering had upset him. He had tried to speak but been drowned out. He had left because he couldn’t stand the fighting anymore. “Lies!” the mob yelled, and one of them struck him to the ground with a makeshift club, crudely fashioned from a twisted tree root.
With a roar the mob dragged OriginalName to the gibbet in the centre of the square, still stained by the blood of sinani206. He was thrust up on a box, as had sinani. He looked out over the crowd, his friends and neighbours among those calling for his head. He closed his eyes and a single tear rolled down his face, glistening in the last rays of sunlight.
The box was kicked away and OriginalName’s neck snapped. Green blood flowed forth, staining the base of the gibbet even darker than before. A groan quickly spread across the crowd. Another of their own had been needlessly killed.
The crowd dispersed. Shoulders were drooped, faces were filled with chagrin and noone spoke. There were three among them however who’s faces betrayed no emotion. The Mafia members smiled inwardly. They were inching closer to their goal, bit by bit.
Meanwhile, on the outskirts of the village, something sinister was stirring. The mound of ash that lay where the villagers had burned the bodies of the goons Foolishness had vanquished moved slightly, as a chill began to cover the ground nearby.
OriginalName the Vanilla Townie has been lynched.
It is now Night 2! You have 24 hours to send in your night actions. Please send them to both myself and DropBear
ah, the night post makes me feel guilty as hell. sorry ON. if i didn't vote for him though, it would have been me who'd get lynched, so i really had no other choice =/
GAH. I had to make dinner, then go help Aidnai pushstart his car and just got back.
Son of a gun. I'm sorry OriginalName, I didn't act fast enough. Really, though you do need to work on your game.
Ok, so night actions:
Medic: JeeJee. I think that he should have protection so much more than anyone else that I'm not even going to put anyone else on this list. Mafia wouldn't have defended OriginalName like that. JeeJee actually tried to keep him alive, Mafia would have tried to be on the right side, but let it happen.
DT: Check Unichan, YoungMinii, (If you think that I'm suspicious enough to deserve a check then me, but only do so if you think I'm scum)
Vig: I don't have a strong enough read on anyone to suggest a vig shot, but one may emerge through analysis of the voting/actions surrounding the lynch.
People who kept their votes on ON, obviously you are not insta scum, but I want to know why you kept your votes on him. I mean in light of the 0 resistance to his lynch, and the lack of any sort of active discussion this day. How do you explain this if ON is scum?
The lonely spirit gazed at what used to be his home. He floated by each remaining villager, in no order or method he merely sighed deeply as he left their mortal dwellings. He had nowhere and nothing. Returning to where he was prior he closed his eyes.
On June 09 2011 11:26 Kavdragon wrote: GAH. I had to make dinner, then go help Aidnai pushstart his car and just got back.
Son of a gun. I'm sorry OriginalName, I didn't act fast enough. Really, though you do need to work on your game.
Ok, so night actions:
Medic: JeeJee. I think that he should have protection so much more than anyone else that I'm not even going to put anyone else on this list. Mafia wouldn't have defended OriginalName like that. JeeJee actually tried to keep him alive, Mafia would have tried to be on the right side, but let it happen.
DT: Check Unichan, YoungMinii, (If you think that I'm suspicious enough to deserve a check then me, but only do so if you think I'm scum)
Vig: I don't have a strong enough read on anyone to suggest a vig shot, but one may emerge through analysis of the voting/actions surrounding the lynch.
Absolutely not.
DT, check Kavdragon. You start your 100% scum argument against ON and then you bitch out at the end even though you and I both know he was the best candidate. I have very little doubt that you are scum because you are the only person in this game that could pull off what you did AND get away with it.
I urge you DT, check Kavdragon. If he really is scum then we WILL lose which is exactly why we need confirmation of Kav's alignment. Not many people in town will listen to me or unichan, so whether or not we are scum will not affect town as much as it will if Kav is scum.
Right now it is 6v3. Tomorrow it will be 5v3 unless Doc gets it right. If we mislynch again, that's game. I beg you to check Kav or he will make tomorrow a very bad day.
Assuming the mafia hits tonight, we're in LYLO tomorrow with 5v3 people left in the game. That means that if we don't hit a mafia in the lynch, then we're out. (barring doctor saves etc).
Thing is, being 4v3 during daytime is not actually worse than being 5v3, because both are lylo situations. We have to lynch correctly tomorrow no matter what.
If we have a vigilante in the game, I would like to ask you to take a shot tonight. I'm not going to try to steer your shot, all the information is out there in the thread.
But from a pure statistical point of view, we should shoot tonight, cause we're in LYLO anyway tomorrow.
On June 09 2011 12:07 OriginalName wrote: The lonely spirit gazed at what used to be his home. He floated by each remaining villager, in no order or method he merely sighed deeply as he left their mortal dwellings. He had nowhere and nothing. Returning to where he was prior he closed his eyes.
Only a rustle of wind was noticed by the others
Go, be at peace, brave villager. Your spirit lives on and you will be remembered.
Okay Palmar's plan is actually not terrible this time.
If there is a vigilante he should seriously consider shooting somebody, a hit will be awesome and a miss will not be too terrible. If there is a cop he should also strongly consider claiming, depending on what information he's got so far.
Also, were noone roleblocked on day1? In SNMMII no roleblocker meant only one blue role for town. I seriously doubt that there is a vig or a cop (and almost certain that we don't have both). So do not rely on them people, we may just have to do the scumhunting ourselves. I may be away for the first part of day1 but I'm almost certainly here for a good part of the rest of it.
On June 09 2011 23:07 prplhz wrote: Okay Palmar's plan is actually not terrible this time.
If there is a vigilante he should seriously consider shooting somebody, a hit will be awesome and a miss will not be too terrible. If there is a cop he should also strongly consider claiming, depending on what information he's got so far.
Also, were noone roleblocked on day1? In SNMMII no roleblocker meant only one blue role for town. I seriously doubt that there is a vig or a cop (and almost certain that we don't have both). So do not rely on them people, we may just have to do the scumhunting ourselves. I may be away for the first part of day1 but I'm almost certainly here for a good part of the rest of it.
Just a little strategy pointer. If there is no roleblocker we probably don't have BOTH cop and doc, but we might very well have either, because all the roleblocker does is stop the doc from protecting the cop.
And yes, of course my plan isn't bad this time. Remember, this is my third game of mafia, and I decided to see what'd happen if I suggested a bad plan, see if it'd somehow help us out the mafia.
Another thing to keep in mind. We're in LYLO tomorrow. Even if we have a cop and he investigates an innocent again, he _should_ out himself if, (and only if) we're pushing for a lynch on another townie.
Better out yourself than losing the game. If however the cop has found 2 innocents, and neither of them is up for the lynch, then by all means hold your silence cop.
On June 09 2011 11:26 Kavdragon wrote: GAH. I had to make dinner, then go help Aidnai pushstart his car and just got back.
Son of a gun. I'm sorry OriginalName, I didn't act fast enough. Really, though you do need to work on your game.
Ok, so night actions:
Medic: JeeJee. I think that he should have protection so much more than anyone else that I'm not even going to put anyone else on this list. Mafia wouldn't have defended OriginalName like that. JeeJee actually tried to keep him alive, Mafia would have tried to be on the right side, but let it happen.
DT: Check Unichan, YoungMinii, (If you think that I'm suspicious enough to deserve a check then me, but only do so if you think I'm scum)
Vig: I don't have a strong enough read on anyone to suggest a vig shot, but one may emerge through analysis of the voting/actions surrounding the lynch.
Absolutely not.
DT, check Kavdragon. You start your 100% scum argument against ON and then you bitch out at the end even though you and I both know he was the best candidate. I have very little doubt that you are scum because you are the only person in this game that could pull off what you did AND get away with it.
I urge you DT, check Kavdragon. If he really is scum then we WILL lose which is exactly why we need confirmation of Kav's alignment. Not many people in town will listen to me or unichan, so whether or not we are scum will not affect town as much as it will if Kav is scum.
Right now it is 6v3. Tomorrow it will be 5v3 unless Doc gets it right. If we mislynch again, that's game. I beg you to check Kav or he will make tomorrow a very bad day.
Not at the end he wasn't. You saw the reaction that putting him up for lynch gave the town. If you only looked at his play then yes, he was the best candidate far and away, but you CANNOT ignore what everyone else is doing. When you look for a response to pressure you are NOT only looking at the person who is pressured. You have to look at what the rest of the players feel about the lynch, and that threw up a huge red flag. You are an experienced player and you most certainly should have seen that.
As far as my DT check, this is my argument against it: We need to find scum. Not confirm townies. I'm fairly confident that I will not be up for lynch tomorrow, (and if I am, I'm confident that I can defend myself without a cop claiming to prove my innocence). This means that the check will not really help us when we need it most.
I'm not afraid of being checked, I just know that it will won't help us tomorrow.
@Youngminii: I'm flattered, but no. There's no way I could pull this off as scum.
My personal theory is that YM is mafia trying to get the DT to check me because they plan to kill me tonight. I'll elaborate on that more before the day comes around though.
Facepalm. I'm this close to just giving up on this stupid game.
On June 09 2011 11:26 Kavdragon wrote: GAH. I had to make dinner, then go help Aidnai pushstart his car and just got back.
Son of a gun. I'm sorry OriginalName, I didn't act fast enough. Really, though you do need to work on your game.
Ok, so night actions:
Medic: JeeJee. I think that he should have protection so much more than anyone else that I'm not even going to put anyone else on this list. Mafia wouldn't have defended OriginalName like that. JeeJee actually tried to keep him alive, Mafia would have tried to be on the right side, but let it happen.
DT: Check Unichan, YoungMinii, (If you think that I'm suspicious enough to deserve a check then me, but only do so if you think I'm scum)
Vig: I don't have a strong enough read on anyone to suggest a vig shot, but one may emerge through analysis of the voting/actions surrounding the lynch.
I appreciate the concern, but this post makes you look more scummy if that's even possible. If I'm the only medic choice, mafia is just not going to hit me. A medic that doesn't protect anything is a townie. Use your head medic.
DT "check me but only if you thin I'm scum" no shit? Why else would the DT check you? Chalk up another one to pretend to be contributing while doing fuck-all
Vig.. despite what others said, you don't *have* to hit tonight. If you do, and miss, we're still in lylo, that's great. That's the first thing I thought of as well. Of course another way is to wait, and hit night3.
If vigi doesnt hit mafia and we mislynch, we lose night 3. Doesn't matter when vigi strikes, or if he strikes at all. I was going to go over every case, but just use your head. The thing is, if he's hitting night 3 instead of night 2, there's less townie targets, higher chance of mafia, more history. Common sense. Of course, if you are sure (and I would be), by all means, fire away.
On June 09 2011 11:26 Kavdragon wrote: GAH. I had to make dinner, then go help Aidnai pushstart his car and just got back.
Son of a gun. I'm sorry OriginalName, I didn't act fast enough. Really, though you do need to work on your game.
Ok, so night actions:
Medic: JeeJee. I think that he should have protection so much more than anyone else that I'm not even going to put anyone else on this list. Mafia wouldn't have defended OriginalName like that. JeeJee actually tried to keep him alive, Mafia would have tried to be on the right side, but let it happen.
DT: Check Unichan, YoungMinii, (If you think that I'm suspicious enough to deserve a check then me, but only do so if you think I'm scum)
Vig: I don't have a strong enough read on anyone to suggest a vig shot, but one may emerge through analysis of the voting/actions surrounding the lynch.
I appreciate the concern, but this post makes you look more scummy if that's even possible. If I'm the only medic choice, mafia is just not going to hit me. A medic that doesn't protect anything is a townie. Use your head medic.
DT "check me but only if you thin I'm scum" no shit? Why else would the DT check you? Chalk up another one to pretend to be contributing while doing fuck-all
Making sure you don't get hit is exactly why I'm calling for a medic on you. I've played medic before, and I know what I'm doing. You play mind games with the mafia. Oh, and the fact that you defended ON is only part of the reason that I want you medic'd.
The reason I said not to check me unless you think I'm scum is because YM was advocating checking me only to make sure that I'm town. Not because he thought that I was scum. I was making it clear that you look for scum as DT, not town.
less activity during the night is a myth invented by mafia in every game. More content to analyse is better for town. What's bad about it?
In other news, I have a vig target! Dementrio has 5 posts in this game and is lurking hardcore. He comes in posts once or twice, then leaves and doesn't come back till the next vote.
On June 10 2011 04:40 Kavdragon wrote: less activity during the night is a myth invented by mafia in every game. More content to analyse is better for town. What's bad about it?
In other news, I have a vig target! Dementrio has 5 posts in this game and is lurking hardcore. He comes in posts once or twice, then leaves and doesn't come back till the next vote.
I didn't mean we should talk less during the night. I meant there simply is less to talk about.
In my case, I voted for youngminii. I was wrong on originalname, that doesn't make me wrong on youngminii, which is a case I will probably follow through with tomorrow.
If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. Kav is good enough of a player to know that dementrio is as town as you can get. DT PLEASE check Kav as I'm almost certain that he's scum and vig don't shoot tonight, you have tomorrow night to shoot when things are clearer. Shooting tonight is just silly.
Ill read up a bit after some food and stuff, but yesterdays situation has stuck with me the whole day - mafia basicly taking over my outside-time
First I wondered if Kav would be able to lead "us all" to vote for ON - and then do a pre-planned decoymanouever by suddensly saying someone else is scum and push votes to him (in this case unichan) - but ofcourse some of the scum had to stay on ON to ensure that a townie actually got lynched.
But right now I cant really see how that could have been pulled off - or atleast i hope not.
youngminii why are you suddenly protecting dementrio? you and him were both votes which still were left on ON yesterday...
thats just my thoughts for now - gonna read through whats been posted since i left for work - I'll be back!
On June 10 2011 05:08 youngminii wrote: DO NOT SHOOT DEMENTRIO.
If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. Kav is good enough of a player to know that dementrio is as town as you can get. DT PLEASE check Kav as I'm almost certain that he's scum and vig don't shoot tonight, you have tomorrow night to shoot when things are clearer. Shooting tonight is just silly.
Lol, why do you care so much? If it's that obvious that Dementrio is town, why do you feel the need to defend him?
Also don't shoot tonight? LOL? if someone dies tonight, we will be at lylo tomorrow. If two people die tonight, we will be at lylo. There will not be another night for the vig to shoot, unless medic protects the person who is targeted by mafia.
Yeah, not really big difference if the vigi shoots tonight or tomorrow gamewise as far as i see - only a bigger chance of the vigi getting killed by scum (or town) if he acts later rather than sooner - thats what I guess anyways
if there is a vigi i really think he should go for dementrio or unichan altho unichans post-ON-lynch post seemed so honest..
ah, the night post makes me feel guilty as hell. sorry ON. if i didn't vote for him though, it would have been me who'd get lynched, so i really had no other choice =/
On June 10 2011 08:04 prplhz wrote: Yea that's true, why wouldn't vigi just shoot on night3. Rofl, then it was a bad plan after all Palmar.
Are you reading? It's lylo tomorrow regardless of whether he shoots. He won't have a chance to shoot night3 if we get the lynch wrong, and shooting tonight will make the lynch tomorrow easier.
On June 10 2011 08:04 prplhz wrote: Yea that's true, why wouldn't vigi just shoot on night3. Rofl, then it was a bad plan after all Palmar.
Are you reading? It's lylo tomorrow regardless of whether he shoots. He won't have a chance to shoot night3 if we get the lynch wrong, and shooting tonight will make the lynch tomorrow easier.
If we mislynch tomorrow, we're down to 7 at night, he can still hit correctly and we end up lylo day4. Like I said it doesn't really matter when vigi shoots.
Just in case, my parting words "conspiracy theory" minii/kav/steff
I was reading the thread tonight when my internet went out and stayed out for 2 hours. Just finished reading now. I know there's not much time left but I'm ready to answer any question you might have before shooting me.
Now, the person I've been thinking the most about is kavdragon. Yesterday you explained how originalname was bandwagoned too easy and this made him town in your eyes even though you thought his defense was poor. And then the weird part begins. You said you were proposing unichan as an alternate, but you had to take time to find an argument against him first. You then show your argument, which was, pardon me if I'm blunt, "See, in this post he's very indecisive. That's scummy. In this post however he's very direct. That's called scumpeak". And nobody actually challenges that argument, not even unichan; prplhz critizes you for bringing it too soon as if that's what he was expecting from the start. What happens then is that everybody ignores unichan and half the town switches to him because you did. What I saw happen was you manipulating half the town (me included) into voting for originalname, and the rest for unichan.
You say it's not necessary to DT check you because you're confident you can defend yourself if you're facing lynch. I think if you're scum we have lost precisely because of this. DT check kav please.
On June 10 2011 05:08 youngminii wrote: DO NOT SHOOT DEMENTRIO.
If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. Kav is good enough of a player to know that dementrio is as town as you can get. DT PLEASE check Kav as I'm almost certain that he's scum and vig don't shoot tonight, you have tomorrow night to shoot when things are clearer. Shooting tonight is just silly.
Lol, why do you care so much? If it's that obvious that Dementrio is town, why do you feel the need to defend him?
Also don't shoot tonight? LOL? if someone dies tonight, we will be at lylo tomorrow. If two people die tonight, we will be at lylo. There will not be another night for the vig to shoot, unless medic protects the person who is targeted by mafia.
I hope vig doesn't actually take what Kav is saying seriously. If he's not scum, he's got to be the worst townie I have ever seen, worse than JeeJee.
Right now it is 6v3. Tomorrow it will be 5v3. When we lynch someone it becomes 4v3. There is another night to shoot someone.
3 of the following are scum: Palmar/Varpulis/Unichan/Kavdragon
I am more certain of this then I am with the previous conspiracy theories, so much so that I don't call this a conspiracy theory, rather a very real accusation.
The fact that Kav thinks he can just switch at the last moment from ON to Unichan goes against his exact line of reasoning against the people he 'scumhunted'. From Day 1 he has made HORRIBLE choices from town's point of view but could be explained if you view him as scum. These include a vote against sinani even though sinani literally had no reason to be lynched. Taking control of Day 2 and leading the way against ON, only to completely switch at the lats minute for a very silly reason. And then the illogical reasoning on Night 2. The DT must check him otherwise we have a potentially lost game as Kav is more than able to convince 1 or 2 townies to vote in his way, which is all he'll need at lylo. He lies low Day 1 then comes out on Day 2 to lead everyone after being called out for lurking.
Varpulis is lying low. If one takes into consideration that Kav is scum (obviously an assumption is being made here, which is why I want a DT check on him), then Varpulis is an interesting name to pop up. He flies completely under the radar and Kav, in his ever so powerful scumhunting craze, doesn't see this? Varpulis lurks and Kav just ignores it, making as little reference to Varpulis as possible.
Palmar's play has been wishy washy all game, but he has been basically following Kav's every move. He doesn't question, he doesn't falter, he just gives shoddy reasoning and jumps on whatever bandwagon Kav has created.
Unichan is just flying waaaaaay under the radar and worries me a little.
In case you didn't read the spoiler, this is my list of scum. I am almost dead certain that all the scum come from this list:
My dumb computer keeps shutting itself down after 5 minutes so I'll just make my post short I'm suspicious of everyone now except JeeJee and dementrio. Everything JeeJee's done up til now has been helpful and pro-town, has never given me scum vibes dementrio has been posting less than me (LOL), but he's never given me scum vibes either
Terror had reigned through the night. The foul undead CubEdln had risen again. He had scattered the villagers. Fires burned and screams filled the night. The CubEdln bus was coming and everyone was jumping. "I'm a survivor!" he roared as he stalked those unfortunate enough to be nearby. Varpulis was trapped inside his rude shack he called a home was struck by a tree. Boom boom boom boom, he was stuck within his room. Desperately his neighbours tried to help him. With one huge furious flurry of effort they managed to unblock the front door and bring Varpulis out into the square. “If you wanna be town leader, you gotta stick with your friends. We don't want no scrubs.”
They confronted CubEdln in the square. "You're going down baby, I want it to happen now baby" the undead monster growled hideously. The villagers came at him and he brushed them aside with ease. He had not however counted on Varpulis coming at him from behind. Wielding a sword shared down his family for generations, he cut off the demon's legs crying "You say it best when you say nothing at all!" But CubEdln was not finished. Even as he was crippled and dying again, he grabbed the impudent townie by the throat."Viva Mafia Forever!" he cried as he crushed his prey's head. Green blood spilled to the ground. The other villagers leaped in to finish off CubEdln but it was too late. They gathered around their friend in tears, but there was nothing they could do to save him. C'est La Vie, his heart will go on. There was no Doctor Jones to wake up now and save him. They had to keep on moving on anyway.
The carnage did not end there. youngminii had survived the rampage of CubEdln and played a pivotal role in subduing the beast. He went for a walk afterwards to calm his nerves. Ain’t nothing gonna break my stride he thought to himself. "Ain’t nothing gonna slow ME down!" Suddenly a dark figure came out of the trees. “Stop right now, thank you very much!” it spoke ominously. “Who’s there?” The figure laughed. “Death. This’ll spice up your life!” Youngminii didn’t have time to react. A rapid movement came from the figure. He looked down to see a long, cruel-looking knife protruding from his body. As he toppled to the ground, green blood flowed freely. “Oops I did it again!” came the voice from the shadows and then it disappeared.
The red sun rose that morning. The villagers arose full of purpose as they buried their dead. From here, they could make no mistakes.
Varpulis the Vanilla Townie has been killed. youngminii the Vanilla Townie has been killed. CubEdln was killed for the second time. Will he be back?
It is now Day 3! You have 48 hours to vote for who is to be lynched.
I feel sick. Youngminii was my main suspect coming into today. I even built an analysis on him that made me think he was scum. If you care to see it: + Show Spoiler +
My case for YoungMinii: v1.0
This was the first major opinon voiced by Youngminii:
On June 05 2011 03:34 youngminii wrote: Vets are probably the strongest role in that they can fill in the role as town leader/coordinator. If the mafia want to kill him, they have to use 2KP or roleblock+hit (which not only reveals that there is a roleblocker, it uses both at once). Since the vet has a lower priority for mafia night killing, as long as the town are always cautious, the vet can act as the town pillar.
I've looked back on a hunch and found out that Youngminii's last game was Salem Mafia.
The two things that went wrong for that game was having centralized leadership, and people claiming. (this was a PM game, mind). Youngminii played as a Vet in that game. This was discussed at some length after the game, and I find it hard to believe that he didn't pick up on any of that. I mean, RoL even hosted a game afterwards specifically designed as punishment for the kind of play that went on in Salem. That's how bad it was.
When I saw him advocating the vet claim I thought it was scummy, but figured he might have just never played with veterans before or something odd like that. Knowing now that he's played, not only with, but AS, a vet, I find this impossible to swallow.
On June 05 2011 03:44 youngminii wrote: Advantage: Town gets a centralised 'voice' that can help coordinate us. Less confusion for us.
Disadvantage: None really. It's the best way to utilise the vet role, and the only flaw that there could be is if someone lied about it, but the lie should become obvious eventually.
But if you don't want to then I'm not going to argue, I think there's plenty of other/better discussion that could be happening instead of us arguing over something that you won't agree to. Better to have the palmar/mataza stuff going if this just isn't going to happen.
Then he posts this. This makes absolutly no sense from a townies prospective: He explains why it would be advantagous to the town for the vet to claim ("the best way to utilize the vet role"), says that there is no disadvantage ("none"), but then says "I'm not going to argue over it"
If you are town, and you have a really pro-town plan, why wouldn't you argue for it!? It's as if he doesn't care about it at all! Disregard that it's a bad plan, cause he clearly doesn't think that it's bad for town. It makes no sense for a townie to just say "meh, i'm not going to argue for this very protown plan." However, it's the perfect way for mafia to back out of something they don't want to argue any more. And look at how well that worked!
Further evidence that he never really thought the plan was pro-town is here:
On June 05 2011 05:55 Palmar wrote: The roleclaim shit was just some bullshit I made up to start discussion, feel free to ignore the idea now, it's terrible anyway.
Also, Mataza is scum.
You bring up a plan to create discussion while knowing it was completely bullshit, then you tell everyone to ignore the idea (making the discussion null and void anyway)?
That's completely retarded, big FoS, if all the inactives come back before the end of the day my vote goes to you.
This makes no sense if he thought the plan was pro-town. If you thought this plan was pro-town and he came in and said it was BS, what would you say? If someone comes up with a plan, and you agree with it, and then they say it's a bad plan, then the FoS is on you, right? Youngminii IS suspect for agreeing with this, but he doesn't defend the plan or himself. It makes no sense for YM to be a townie in this senario. It makes sense for YoungMinii to be scum in this scenario. YoungMinii is scum
Let's pick up where we left of, shall we? YoungMinii puts a big FoS on Palmar for his play, and this FoS resolves into a full on scum read, and vote: + Show Spoiler +
On June 05 2011 22:20 youngminii wrote: Palmar your posts have been extremely disgusting and illogical up to this point. You recent posts have been better but your accusation against sinani is completely misguided. He decided to go for a policy (inactive) lynch and all his actions thus far have been in line with that line of reasoning. You on the other hand, have repeatedly posted crap after crap until finally posting a flawed 'analysis' on someone who already has a vote for the same reason you posted AND the person who seems like the easiest to lynch, based on the town's 'policy'.
While I am remaining suspicious of sinani and steff for their inactivity, you have repeatedly shown throughout your posts that you are one of the following: A. Scum B. Unfit for town C. Village Idiot
Also I'm unvoting Steff because he's put in an effort, as little as it may be. You still have to step it up Steff.
##Unvote Stefftastic ##Vote Palmar
Notice the resolve. He seems pretty sure of his posting. + Show Spoiler +
On June 05 2011 23:06 Palmar wrote: The analysis isn't flawed. Policy lynching inactive people is stupid, and will never hit a scum. I may be wrong, but my reasons are certainly valid enough. Lynching people who you think are unfit for town is also stupid, cause that means you're not hitting scum.
I'm glad you actually stuck a vote on me this time though, even if the thought process behind it is flawed, at least you're aggressive enough this time to at least have a hope of creating discussion. Congratulations.
The reason you want to hit people is because they behave in a way that scum should behave. The thought process you should be going through is "If I were scum, would I be posting this". Only Mataza and Sinani206 fit my bill when I went through the thread. I would try to play somewhat like them if I was the scum.
Now, you may not agree with my methods to the point you're willing to vote me off for them, but can you honestly go through my posts and say "this is how I'd post if I was scum".
If you can, then keep doing your thing man.
... what is this really
I'm gunning for you because your reasoning/play has been scummy so far, it doesn't have anything to do with whether I agree or disagree with your 'methods'.
Also, less belittlement please.
Basically your post had no real content. You reaffirm your belief that lynching inactives is stupid, yet you never disagreed with anyone about it earlier. There are plenty of people other than sinani advocating the inactive lynch, including myself, yet you don't even consider this in your crusade against sinani.
Then you go on and post a bunch of bullshit for the sake of content.
No, you are definitely the scummiest in this town.
Yup. He's pretty sure that Palmar is scum. This suspicion continues on till day two, when he makes this remark:
On June 07 2011 11:31 youngminii wrote: This also means that I'm completely backing off Palmar as I find his day 1 actions weird (not really scummy not really townie) considering Mataza is town.
What? Not really scummy? That's certainly not the impression that you give with your posts. How does mataza's flip make you think that he is also town?
There was never a real opinion that Palmar is scum. Sure, YM might have thought that he looked scummy, but the fact that he dropped his number one suspect becaues someone else flipped town is really suspicious. Not to mention the fact that on day one, (when he was still certain that Palmar was scum) he never suggested that we lynch Palmar instead of Sinani!? Why, when you have such a solid read, do you not put that person in as an alterinative lynch?
Now, on to my next point: Mataza.
I was confused by the mafia's choice in killing Mataza so I went looking for a reason. There are a couple of possibilites: They thought he was Blue, he was suspicious of someone innocent so they wanted to set up that innocent person, or he was on to someone who was scum, so they wanted to silence him.
The first one is a no go. I've looked at his posts several times and nothing about them makes me think that he was blue. The second one is a no go too: It's been almost 48hrs, and no one has mentioned the fact that mataza was convinced that YM was scum. If they had meant to use this to cast suspicion on someone, they would have done it by now. The third one makes sense though.
On June 06 2011 20:34 Mataza wrote: youngminii Like I said up there, It´s easy for scum to defend a mislynched guy on the slightest provocation. It´s the equivalent of a bus, only that you don´t have to lose a member of scumteam for it. Also me cooperating with Palmar to do what we(he) did is about the most retarded thing I ever heard. Assuming everyone else is dumb is what I do, too, but not to that extent.
It's not finished, but it's what I had.
Can anyone confirm the reason why there were two kills? If you are vig and you shot, PLEASE claim. It will help me clear up a bunch of things, and it doesn't matter if the mafia know who you are if you've already shot.
Cubedin is also a strange addition to a game entitled "surprisingly normal mini mafia.
I want to hear what you guys think of the DT claiming at this point. Personally, I think that he should stay hidden till later in the day if it becomes clear that we are not on the right track.
Also, Why has everyone fallen so quiet? This is getting ridiculous. We have had less than 2 pages of posts last night, and even the day before then was quiet. If you are a townie you NEED to post more. We cannot function and scum hunt when the activity level is this low.
I've tried my best to scum hunt and it's failed. I'll keep trying but you everyone need to step it up as well.
I hate this game. I have no clue how to play fucking town.
We know there was a vigi shot, stefftastiq claimed it and no one is counterclaiming, so I'm gonna assume he is green. I know myself is green and I have no clue about kavdragon.
We're in lynch or lose situation, but 3 out of the 7 targets remaining are scum.
I think those three are kavdragon, prplhz and unichan.
prplhz has contributed nothing to the game, there will be a full analysis coming up at some point during this day. But I don't think anyone can argue he has done something even remotely useful for town.
as for the vigishot - I went for the one I thought were scum - so bascily I just removed one of the more suspicious leaving us with all the "town players" left - crazy shit!
@Kav
Can anyone confirm the reason why there were two kills? If you are vig and you shot, PLEASE claim. It will help me clear up a bunch of things, and it doesn't matter if the mafia know who you are if you've already shot.
What bunch of thing would this clear? As I see it it would probably give you a sense that there is no cop/detective in this game, since the veteran already is dead and the vigi is another blue role - and its probably not three of them - since its a 12player game - I guess this would be usefull information for scum.
Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot. Also, for the record, I called for a vig to shoot someone because I was almost certain that there wasn't a vig. I also failed at thinking straight beforehand: I forgot that if we are at lylo, and we mislynch, it's not GG. If they don't kill anyone that night, OR if the vig hits mafia then we are still in the game.
Whatever. I thought YM was scum too, and having him gone will make sure that I won't focus on him for a lynch.
Okay I don't have a lot of time but I'm gonna make a quick post.
First, stefftastiq's claim is without doubt true. He is a vigilante and he is therefore town.
Second, even though we're at lylo, we have more information to base our lynch on than ever before and we should be able to find some candidates for lynching. Also all townies need to be very assertive, we may have to use pressure to gain information, but we can't use half assed pressure or anything like that we need to make it clear that we're gonna lynch some bastard and then we need to change our votes if he's not scum anyway. 'cause we can't just make information lynches at this point.
Third, @Palmar I haven't contributed anything to this game? Well who has, really, we never caught a scum. On day1 I was the first to make a push for the sinani206 lynch and even though you wrote a bigger post some time after, it was essentially my post with the reasons more cleanly cut out and backed by quotes. On day2 I tried early on to provide an alternative for the OriginalName lynch so we would not just form a bandwagon, then I tried to put more pressure on OriginalName and his scum buddies by changing my vote but in the end I followed my intuition and Kavdragon's analysis to switch my vote to unichan. What have you done except fooling around in the beginning? Your accusations also seems like you're accusing, voting, and then you say that you might come up with some reasons for this vote at some point. I think it is good to go for your hunches but you really need to sit down and build a case instead of saying "he is guilty", 'cause everybody here did something you could consider scummy and if you judge them in advance you're just gonna blow up those things out of proportions and it will be a waste of your time.
I think we're on the right track with the unichan accusations but I'm gonna go through the game later tonight and see what I can find.
How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.
Let's do a quick recap:
Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.
(+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.
I know half of you are going to completely ignore this post for obvious reasons. I don't give a fuck about you. I'm appealing to the other half, the green half. The half that doesn't use maficoins as currency. You can follow kav to yet another mislynch and a lost game or you can finally question all the shady shit he's done this game so far and put an end to this garbage. Total: 25 maficoins ##Vote:Kavdragon
[QUOTE]On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote: How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.
Let's do a quick recap:
[quote]Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)[/quote]
If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.
[quote]Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)[/quote] I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).
[quote]Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228097¤tpage=23#451]here[/url].[/quote] Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.
[quote][QUOTE]On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.[/quote] (+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.[/quote] Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote: How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.
Let's do a quick recap:
Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)
If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)
I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.
Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.
(+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.
Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote: How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.
Let's do a quick recap:
Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)
If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)
I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.
Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.
(+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.
Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?
I'm not appealing to you but to three of these fine folk: Unichan Palmar Dementrio Prplhz Stefftastiq
On June 11 2011 12:22 Varpulis wrote: activity, where art thou? the dead speak with mourning, for the living still are silent. Speak, and put our souls to rest.
Join me brother, for beyond the grave, all are pure. In our pureness we wait, for our folly was truly great.
I have absolutely nothing to base my vote on because I don't know how to play fucking town. I'm completely useless at this analysis thing.
Stefftastiq and I are clear (in my eyes of course)
That leaves me 5 people to look at. I think JeeJee is clear so that leaves four.
three of the four are mafia.
Unichan Prplhz Kavdragon Dementrio.
The first threee is my best bet, but again, I have lost every ounce of confidence I had in trying to find mafia.
So I'm just randomly guessing prplhz. I'll be fine with going for eiher Kavdragon or Unichan too. Actually, I'm just going to sheep behind whomever stefftastiq votes.
Alright sorry I've been so inactive but I just got home to my parents and then there was this MSL finals thing and then I had to do some gardening ..
Anyway, what the hell? Two votes for me already without any arguments at all? And a vote for Kavdragon where the main argument is a funny picture? People need to post some content right now. This is our best chance at hitting a scum since we're at 4v3, we have 60% chance to hit scum (since none of us can vote for ourselves, and stefftastiq is obviously town).
Kavdragon
First, what the hell Kavdragon. I think that in the beginning you played very well and townie like, good arguments no hesitation no fluff or spam, but since neither sinani206 nor OriginalName, who were up for lynch on day1, were scum a scum was free to play as townie like as he could. Then you tried to get unichan lynched on day2 but more on that later. What you have been doing since night2 though has been quite bad.
First you insist on vigi shooting that night or else we would not survive. Even after both stefftastiq, me and youngminii point out that vigi can shoot later, you insist that he has to shoot that night. In the end vigi shot night2 and that was extremely good for scum. If vigi had waited until night3 it would be 4v3, which would give him 50% chance to shoot a scum, instead of 57% chance .. it is pure math. But this was a freebie for a scum since it is pure math and your defense can easily be math-noob or WIFOM. And why do I think that your defense might be WIFOM?
Because you have used WIFOM extensively for your defense so far.
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote: How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.
Let's do a quick recap:
Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)
If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)
I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.
Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.
(+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.
Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?
If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch?
It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town
And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
So palpable that you even feel the need to point it out yourself. WIFOM is no way to defend yourself, just explain your actions and get on with it. Only way anybody would have to resort to WIFOM is if they do not have any reasons for their actions (noob defense), or if they don't want to disclose their actions (scum motives). JeeJee's original accusations were "gimmicky" and, as you point out yourself, actually weak. Then why do you use up all the time you have to defend yourself against terrible accusations instead quickly explaining your actions and getting to scumhunting? Are you more occupied with surviving that with nailing scum, even at lylo?
This brings me to my next point; your vote against me. Even though you have cooked up great analysis in the past you decide to bandwagon for this one. No reasons, just following Palmar's accusations, which does not have any arguments either. What the hell? How do you expect me to defend myself against nothing? Or maybe it would be better if I didn't defend myself?
I really thought that you were townie from day1 but this is just crazy weird behavior from you who seemed to have played consistently well.
Since this is lylo I think that it should be possible for everybody to make accusations against three guys. I'm gonna say that this JeeJee v Kavdragon thing looks a bit orchestrated, bad arguments for and even worse counter arguments, the whole thing ending up with a picture of a god damn rabbit getting pulled out of a hat. The whole thing looks like a farce to me, orchestrated so that scum has something to talk about today instead of being afraid to say something because this is getting dangerous. I think that the three scum are Kavdragon, JeeJee, and the last one is definitely not stefftastiq and I doubt that it is unichan either even though I was on his back after day2. This leaves Palmar and dementrio.
Also, people get the hell posting and you absolutely have to be online tonight at deadline. Scum could do a last minute vote switch, it only takes one of us with a bad vote. I am going to need the help of three of you stefftastiq, unichan, Palmar, and dementrio because I seriously doubt that JeeJee is gonna keep his vote on Kavdragon if the guy is up for lynch when we're approaching deadline.
##Vote Kavdragon
Sorry dude but you are playing terrible and I doubt that Ace coached you to use WIFOM as defense when you are townie. And I want to stress that this is not a final vote, I will be here until deadline and I want to see some proper defense Kavdragon. Now, get posting people, get posting right the hell now, we may have a lot of work to do.
On June 11 2011 23:18 prplhz wrote: Alright sorry I've been so inactive but I just got home to my parents and then there was this MSL finals thing and then I had to do some gardening ..
Anyway, what the hell? Two votes for me already without any arguments at all? And a vote for Kavdragon where the main argument is a funny picture? People need to post some content right now. This is our best chance at hitting a scum since we're at 4v3, we have 60% chance to hit scum (since none of us can vote for ourselves, and stefftastiq is obviously town).
Kavdragon
First, what the hell Kavdragon. I think that in the beginning you played very well and townie like, good arguments no hesitation no fluff or spam, but since neither sinani206 nor OriginalName, who were up for lynch on day1, were scum a scum was free to play as townie like as he could. Then you tried to get unichan lynched on day2 but more on that later. What you have been doing since night2 though has been quite bad.
First you insist on vigi shooting that night or else we would not survive. Even after both stefftastiq, me and youngminii point out that vigi can shoot later, you insist that he has to shoot that night. In the end vigi shot night2 and that was extremely good for scum. If vigi had waited until night3 it would be 4v3, which would give him 50% chance to shoot a scum, instead of 57% chance .. it is pure math. But this was a freebie for a scum since it is pure math and your defense can easily be math-noob or WIFOM. And why do I think that your defense might be WIFOM?
Because you have used WIFOM extensively for your defense so far.
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote: How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.
Let's do a quick recap:
Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)
If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)
I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.
Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.
(+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.
Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?
And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
So palpable that you even feel the need to point it out yourself. WIFOM is no way to defend yourself, just explain your actions and get on with it. Only way anybody would have to resort to WIFOM is if they do not have any reasons for their actions (noob defense), or if they don't want to disclose their actions (scum motives). JeeJee's original accusations were "gimmicky" and, as you point out yourself, actually weak. Then why do you use up all the time you have to defend yourself against terrible accusations instead quickly explaining your actions and getting to scumhunting? Are you more occupied with surviving that with nailing scum, even at lylo?
This brings me to my next point; your vote against me. Even though you have cooked up great analysis in the past you decide to bandwagon for this one. No reasons, just following Palmar's accusations, which does not have any arguments either. What the hell? How do you expect me to defend myself against nothing? Or maybe it would be better if I didn't defend myself?
I really thought that you were townie from day1 but this is just crazy weird behavior from you who seemed to have played consistently well.
Since this is lylo I think that it should be possible for everybody to make accusations against three guys. I'm gonna say that this JeeJee v Kavdragon thing looks a bit orchestrated, bad arguments for and even worse counter arguments, the whole thing ending up with a picture of a god damn rabbit getting pulled out of a hat. The whole thing looks like a farce to me, orchestrated so that scum has something to talk about today instead of being afraid to say something because this is getting dangerous. I think that the three scum are Kavdragon, JeeJee, and the last one is definitely not stefftastiq and I doubt that it is unichan either even though I was on his back after day2. This leaves Palmar and dementrio.
Also, people get the hell posting and you absolutely have to be online tonight at deadline. Scum could do a last minute vote switch, it only takes one of us with a bad vote. I am going to need the help of three of you stefftastiq, unichan, Palmar, and dementrio because I seriously doubt that JeeJee is gonna keep his vote on Kavdragon if the guy is up for lynch when we're approaching deadline.
##Vote Kavdragon
Sorry dude but you are playing terrible and I doubt that Ace coached you to use WIFOM as defense when you are townie. And I want to stress that this is not a final vote, I will be here until deadline and I want to see some proper defense Kavdragon. Now, get posting people, get posting right the hell now, we may have a lot of work to do.
If you think I'm mafia at this point, you're hopeless.
My argument against kav is oh so much more than a funny picture, and definitely isn't orchestrated. However, the last time I wrote up a good comprehensive argument, it was summarily ignored. Feel free to go back in the thread and read it. There will be no TLDR, if you can't read a long post you shouldn't be playing this game.
I hope you guys realize that if we all don't vote for the same person, mafia decides who dies. With that in mind, I am now holding you idiots hostage and not changing my vote to steff's vote until you give me your comprehensive opinion on kavdragon and his actions in this game, and why that does or does not make him mafia.
I think my vote is going to Kavdragon as well for the moment - even tho he has seemed to play townish, it might have been a bit too townish? - someone wrote in SNMMII that mafia is very much about what you make people believe..
Been going through the thread and I agree with the previous post - and it can seem that he has 'controlled' the game by being town - since scum dont really have to rely on lynching townies as long as we do that ourself - then they just sit back and kill the most obvious townie at night or a random - which I guess why he wanted the vigi to claim.
as for now I see both JeeJee and Prplz go on Kav while Prplz also says JeeJee is scum.
Ill put my vote on Kav for now - and I think i need a really good argument to change it, also a lot of the people who were suspicious about Kav in past now are dead - this might make things right
Would be nice if people put up more than one suspect at the time tho - that would have made it much harder for the scum to hide, especially since there are three of them.
A scum play that make sense would be kav + unichan + dementrio - one who "controls" the play and the two other which kind of lays back to watch and contribute when being told.
Havent really got much to back it up right now since it was just a thought passing through - but maybe someone else thought of it too :-p
First, what the hell Kavdragon. I think that in the beginning you played very well and townie like, good arguments no hesitation no fluff or spam, but since neither sinani206 nor OriginalName, who were up for lynch on day1, were scum a scum was free to play as townie like as he could. Then you tried to get unichan lynched on day2 but more on that later. What you have been doing since night2 though has been quite bad.
First you insist on vigi shooting that night or else we would not survive. Even after both stefftastiq, me and youngminii point out that vigi can shoot later, you insist that he has to shoot that night. In the end vigi shot night2 and that was extremely good for scum. If vigi had waited until night3 it would be 4v3, which would give him 50% chance to shoot a scum, instead of 57% chance .. it is pure math. But this was a freebie for a scum since it is pure math and your defense can easily be math-noob or WIFOM. And why do I think that your defense might be WIFOM?
Because you have used WIFOM extensively for your defense so far.
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote: How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.
Let's do a quick recap:
Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)
If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)
I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.
Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.
(+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.
Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?
And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.
You need to re-read the definision of WIFOM. If I say that scum don't do "A", and I didn't do "A" it's not wifom. It's a defence. WIFOM is when you say: Scum don't do "A", but since scum know that, they might have done "A". Wifom is when you argue that someone is scum because the opposite of what scum do in an attempt to look town.
Scum would have had no need to make a last minute vote switch to draw attention to themself, thus it is actually wifom to argue that I am scum because of that vote.
The second quote is about medics, and is very true. If there is no medic (or if you are the medic) then you make a huge effort in thread to get a specific person to be protected, and then protect someone else, because, as Jeejee says, the scum will just hit someone other than the one in the thread. That way you can double your protection. That tactic served me well in the last game I played medic.
The third quote isn't even cloes to wifom. You seem to have it confused with "i think he wouldn't be able to" or "They wouldn't do that" statements. Observations about behavior =/= wifom.
So palpable that you even feel the need to point it out yourself. WIFOM is no way to defend yourself, just explain your actions and get on with it. Only way anybody would have to resort to WIFOM is if they do not have any reasons for their actions (noob defense), or if they don't want to disclose their actions (scum motives). JeeJee's original accusations were "gimmicky" and, as you point out yourself, actually weak. Then why do you use up all the time you have to defend yourself against terrible accusations instead quickly explaining your actions and getting to scumhunting? Are you more occupied with surviving that with nailing scum, even at lylo?
Because defending myself takes about 10 min, and writing a decent analysis takes over an hour. At this point I fully expect the mafia to try with everything they can to lynch me, because it will only take one townie to vote me for mafia to win. This is what I expected as soon as I saw the Day post, and I wasn't in it.
This brings me to my next point; your vote against me. Even though you have cooked up great analysis in the past you decide to bandwagon for this one. No reasons, just following Palmar's accusations, which does not have any arguments either. What the hell? How do you expect me to defend myself against nothing? Or maybe it would be better if I didn't defend myself?
I really thought that you were townie from day1 but this is just crazy weird behavior from you who seemed to have played consistently well.
Since this is lylo I think that it should be possible for everybody to make accusations against three guys. I'm gonna say that this JeeJee v Kavdragon thing looks a bit orchestrated, bad arguments for and even worse counter arguments, the whole thing ending up with a picture of a god damn rabbit getting pulled out of a hat. The whole thing looks like a farce to me, orchestrated so that scum has something to talk about today instead of being afraid to say something because this is getting dangerous. I think that the three scum are Kavdragon, JeeJee, and the last one is definitely not stefftastiq and I doubt that it is unichan either even though I was on his back after day2. This leaves Palmar and dementrio.
Also, people get the hell posting and you absolutely have to be online tonight at deadline. Scum could do a last minute vote switch, it only takes one of us with a bad vote. I am going to need the help of three of you stefftastiq, unichan, Palmar, and dementrio because I seriously doubt that JeeJee is gonna keep his vote on Kavdragon if the guy is up for lynch when we're approaching deadline.
##Vote Kavdragon
Sorry dude but you are playing terrible and I doubt that Ace coached you to use WIFOM as defense when you are townie. And I want to stress that this is not a final vote, I will be here until deadline and I want to see some proper defense Kavdragon. Now, get posting people, get posting right the hell now, we may have a lot of work to do.
I'm not getting coached by Ace, btw.
Your basic argument is "Played really pro-town the first two days" "Played scummy this last night" "Defends with wifom".
The first part is true, the second is false, but I don't fault you for thinking it, the third is false. (Again, read the mafia-scum wiki for an explanation of wifom.)
I can explain all my actions now. But in a new post. One sec.
First off, I didn't want to do this, but I think that it will be necessary for town to make it past today.
I am a veteran
First day I was legitimately away, and couldn't do much. I came in and saw someone who I had suspected early on, claiming vet. The reason that vet is a great claim for mafia was one point against Sinani, but the fact that i was a vet made me extremely suspicious. So I put my vote on Sinani.
Even though I couldn't be active during the day in order to make me a target, I posted my analysis of OriginalName during the night. There are people who argue against posting during the night, because it helps scum pick tier targets. This is true, and I tried to utilize it by posting as much as I could during the night. Even Ver has said that it's a bad idea to post analyses during the night unless you are sure that you are going to die, because it will make the scum focus on you. Unfortunately they went with Mataza instead.
Second day I came up with a very good case for OriginalName, and waited to see what happened. It was bandwagoned heavily, and that made me doubt my original Analysis a lot, but I was still suspicious until I thought about what JeeJee was doing. My line of reasoning was this: "Jeejee is defending ON harder than he should. This must mean that JeeJee has more knowledge than I do about ON." The only two options were that JeeJee was a detective (and had checked ON), or he was mafia. Jeejee's posts looked pretty good to me (keep in mind that I thought that JeeJee was a new player at that point), then I looked at his posts during the night. He asked TONS of questions about cops, and targets. Classic new DT slip. I had found our DT.
Remember when I posted "I just realized two things: This is a bandwagon, and this is not a ON bus" Well, that was prompted by my third, unmentioned realization that JeeJee was a DT, and since he was defending ON like that, he must have checked him. SO I started frantically trying to undo the bandwagon that I had started. Makes sense, right?
Look at that night. I know that there are two vets, and I'm almost certain that JeeJee is a DT. There's no way that we would also have a medic, or a vig. So I call for medics o protect JeeJee (Again, because the scum wouldn't take a chance that there is a medic, this was the best protection that I could give knowing that there was no medic.)
Then I called for a vig to hit Dementrio. This was another form of pressure that I've used before as town to great effect. Call for a vig hit on someone. Dementrio looked like town, but he wasn't posting at ALL, so I asked for a vig to hit him so that he would post more, and I could get a better read on him. Again, I was almost certain that there wasn't a vig because I was almost certain that there was a DT.
Now, according to you, prplhz, I played a town first two days, but this past night was scummy, right? Now I've explained my play for this past night (and the rest of the game)
Care to take your votes off of me?
Also, I thought I posted this before, but everyone needs to realize that if any townie votes for another townie, we will lose. If any townie doesn't vote for the same scum as the rest of the townies, we lose.
I'm leaving in half an hour for a graduation, and if I have time while I'm waiting I'll try to come up with some analysis, but i CANNOT be the only one doing it for this town.
Steff: Analyse. It doesn't matter if you aren't good, the only way that you will get better is by trying. Read Ver's guide to Mafia XXX if you don't know where to start.
Palmar: Don't sheep. Figure out who has the better arguments, and go back and read the beginning carefully now that you know who is who from the flips.
Dementrio: Get in here and post more. I still think that you are town, but you really need to be more active. What are your thoughts on the lynch, who is scummy, and why?
On June 12 2011 04:44 stefftastiq wrote: so you suspect there were 2 veterans 1 vigi (and even more blues) on the town side vs 3 scum?
No, I thought that there would be three blues. I KNOW that there are two vets, and I thought that the third was Jeejee (DT), but now that I know there is a vig(you), I'm certain that there are no more blue roles. Meaning that I no longer belive JeeJee to be the DT.
On June 12 2011 01:57 stefftastiq wrote: I think my vote is going to Kavdragon as well for the moment - even tho he has seemed to play townish, it might have been a bit too townish? - someone wrote in SNMMII that mafia is very much about what you make people believe..
Been going through the thread and I agree with the previous post - and it can seem that he has 'controlled' the game by being town - since scum dont really have to rely on lynching townies as long as we do that ourself - then they just sit back and kill the most obvious townie at night or a random - which I guess why he wanted the vigi to claim.
as for now I see both JeeJee and Prplz go on Kav while Prplz also says JeeJee is scum.
Ill put my vote on Kav for now - and I think i need a really good argument to change it, also a lot of the people who were suspicious about Kav in past now are dead - this might make things right
##Vote Kavdragon
I've been lynched for that reason my past two games. I was town both times.
The argument that "he is too townie" is retarded. I've proved it with my dead body twice, and I don't want to have to prove it again.
The fact that I have, as you say "controlled" the town is only because the real town was willing to sheep behind my arguments, and since I was wrong, scum sheeped behind them too.
Everyone has to contribute in this game. You cannot have one player doing all the work, or something like this happens: The leader gets stuff wrong, and then scum lynch him. Yes, mafia is about manipulating opinion, but that's true for town just as much as it is for scum. Just because I'm better at it than some doesn't mean that I'm scum. Look at the intentions behind my posts.
Oh lord 2 veterans in a 12 player game, what next?
brb, cue the
If mafia & getting lynched, I'm 100% claiming vet. Not confirmable and have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game: "because the mafia know I am a vet"
hello. I decided i could finally use some free time to play sc2, but I went on a losing streak and then tilted away ladder points for hours anyway I'm here.
When rereading, my eye caught kav's vet claim. I didn't read the rest of the post and then went back to read from the beginning of today, and caught myself thinking, wow what kav is saying actually makes sense if he is vet. All the stuff about being pretty sure there is no medic, no vig, and remembering how he was pushing for sinani and telling people to use night powers at random. I know this is what he explains in his post aswell, but the point I'm making is that I belive if kav is false claiming than he planned to do so from day 1. I am pretty confident this time that he's not fooling me into believing him just with his latest posts. Now I honestly don't know, but my guess that being randed mafia and coming into the game with the intention of acting like a vet from the start doesn't make too much sense and is unnecessarily risky. In any way occam's razor tells me that kav is more likely to be a vet than mafia.
Unichan vs Palmar
In the beginning I said how I thought unichan's early posts were suspicious, because as a first time player and scum, i adopted the approach he had. This approach was:
[/quote]I hate this game. I have no clue how to play fucking town.[/quote] [/quote]I don't know
I have absolutely nothing to base my vote on because I don't know how to play fucking town. I'm completely useless at this analysis thing.[/quote]
(The quotes are from Palmar). I think this attitude is an easy way to avoid doing a citizen's job, which is to get and post reads. I don't have more clues than you have Palmar, so I'll use things like these to call you scum.
I'm going to read the thread from day1 once again now, because I just realized jeejee flew completely under my radar till today. his last posts give me the same vibes youngmiini's did so I'm inclined to think town but I'll come back to that later.
I think jeejee is town. I don't have a problem with any of his posts till now. BUT, I'm not satisfied with the response to kav's claim
Oh lord 2 veterans in a 12 player game, what next?
brb, cue the If mafia & getting lynched, I'm 100% claiming vet. Not confirmable and have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game: "because the mafia know I am a vet" quote. I wonder who said that.
do you think kav would plan ahead and, as scum, intentionally post stuff that looks scummy every day so that he could claim vet and look coherent, with another vet already flipped?
Claim is so ridiculous it's almost believable, but I'm sticking with sheeping after Stefftastiq.
Palmar I think you're the scummiest in here now. I think the scum is palmar, unichan and prp.
I'ts late night here and I'm starting to find it hard to think straight; I would vote for prplhz now but I'm afraid to. If I fall asleep and miss last minute developments, is it better for me to have voted or not? Does it even make a difference?
Where is unichan? there's no possibility he is actually the vig and steff is trolling us hard I hope. Right?
First I want to address the main point of Kavdragon's argument; the vet claim. If he is veteran then he is 100% townie, if he is not veteran then this is a last ditch defense as he so cleverly pointed out himself earlier in the game. Now is he a vet?
First point against him being vet is that that would make 6 vanilla, 2 veteran, and 1 vigi against 3 vanilla scum (since nobody claimed roleblock yet I'm gonna assume that there are no roleblockers, if you forgot to claim roleblock then maybe now is the time). This is insanely imbalanced compared to SNMMII where we were 9 vanilla townies v 2 vanilla townies and a roleblocker. And town almost won that game if they'd just stayed active until the end. It goes without saying that 2 veterans AND a vigi would make town way overpowered.
Second point against him; he claims that he has played like a vet all game through. Either he has been faking this all along or he has just now made this up. Faking it all along seems crazy since there was a vet day1 and that should make vet claims less believable later. I think he just now made this up and his behavior so far only vaguely supports the idea that he has been vet all game. He tried to help town, but he never got a scum lynched and so far everybody has tried to help town. More importantly he also claims to have tried to attract hits but he didn't, scum is never gonna hit a guy who might be protected by medic and the way he's been acting I would have protected him the first two nights if I were a medic. We saw it in SNMMII where the guys hit were all people who laid low without lurking, and we've seen it so far in this game too. The guy never tried to attract hits. This vet claim is something he just made up now, he's been acting scum acting vanilla in a self destructing town all game long.
Like "I called for a vig hit on dementrio because I knew he was town and I wanted him to talk and I knew there were no vigs". Well scum acting vanilla townie could have done that too, "I called for vig hit on dementrio because he was lurking and we would not get a clear read on him for day3 lynch" with the secret agenda that dementrio might just be town (just look at his posts and Hesmyrr's).
I also want to point out that he's only been defending himself so far, I think this is a scumtell. He never provided any reason for the sudden vote on me. I think that he jumped on me 'cause the first guy who got a bandwagon going on him on the first two nights was lynched. But then when everything was turned around he knew that he was gonna get in trouble very soon and this is a last ditch effort to avoid getting lynched.
My vote stands because of reasons previously stated though I would not mind reiterating them by request.
@Palmar
You don't care about stuff that happens, you just sheep stefftastiq? Either you are scum or you should get a replacement right now 'cause you are ruining this game for town, and I don't care if you are trying to make a point of sheeping or anything, you should really try to lead by example.
@dementrio
The guy never played veteran, most of what he explains makes perfect sense in a scum acting vanilla townie context. The more outrageous the lie the more likely it is that people will believe it and playing on townie fear of repeating a day1 mistake makes it all the more powerful.
That was my first thought as well - abuse the town mistake the first day by claming vet and see if town were willing to lynch another claimed vet.
As for the balance issues I also feel it would be overpowered with two vets and a vigi for the townside vs nothing as far as we know. But the only game I can compare with is minimafia2 - where there were none!
It also seems like its mostly Kav people got opinions on - since we actually need atleast four votes to lynch its crucial that scums not in those four landed on a scum... (obvious) - Hopefully everybody is here.
I forgot the rules say voting is mandatory, so falling asleep now would definitely NOT be a good idea
##vote: prplhz
prp,
My vote stands because of reasons previously stated though I would not mind reiterating them by request.
please do.
I am not discarding your argument just yet, in fact I won my only other game by slipping a huge scumtell that somehow got misinterpreted by the first to respond and I was able to jump on the opportunity and turn it into a perfect defense. I can only imagine kavdragon would be able to do that better. But tbh, I still think the simplest solution is that kav is actually a vet. I'll wait to see how he responds to you, and also see where unichan stands in all this.
On June 12 2011 08:45 dementrio wrote: I think jeejee is town. I don't have a problem with any of his posts till now. BUT, I'm not satisfied with the response to kav's claim
Oh lord 2 veterans in a 12 player game, what next?
brb, cue the If mafia & getting lynched, I'm 100% claiming vet. Not confirmable and have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game: "because the mafia know I am a vet" quote. I wonder who said that.
do you think kav would plan ahead and, as scum, intentionally post stuff that looks scummy every day so that he could claim vet and look coherent, with another vet already flipped?
Claiming vet is always a backup in any case because it's an unprovable claim. There is no need to plan ahead whatsoever. I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.. a vet would never post stuff that looks scummy (unlike our current vet here) because they want to be hit by mafia. The whole point of a vet is to attract a mafia hit, thus looking scummy is pretty much the worst thing you can do as a vet.
Changed his behavior totally trying to start a bandwagon against me with absolutely no reasons. During the pressure on him he has acted very desperately, using WIFOM and claims to defend himself while still not providing any reason for his weird vote against me. Has acted townie for parts of the game, but that was when town was self destructing and scum can risk scoring some town creds. Has not done a single vindicating thing in this game.
Now why do you think that I am scum? There have been absolutely no arguments against me, just Palmar voting and switching away and Kavdragon voting for me. That's it.
prp, I think you're scum because jeejee is townier than you. This assuming kav is town. I'm voting you because you're the only one that has a vote besides kav. I'd rather vote palmar.
but I feel in a very sticky spot right now. deadline is approaching and both jeejee and steff are going for kav. either I'm wrong or they both are wrong
Sorry for the delay, thunderstorm knocked out power for a short while, Counting votes now, if I lose power again you may not see the flip till tomorrow
Kavdragon to be lynched, night post up in a couple minutes! Did the town screw up? Or did they just take their first step to victory? Only a handful of people know right now...
They had gone undetected. Silent but swift in their work, under the radar, suspected by few. JeeJee stared at the gibbet. prplhz shuffled nervously, knowing that should things go awry, he would be the first to go.dementrio stayed silent, his hand close to the handle of the axe concealed within his coat.
Kavdragon had been among the most vocal. He had screamed for the heads of those who had gone before, he had cried out the loudest when suspicion came on him. The town had had enough. As he stood on the box, he only had one thing to say. “My friends. I am sorry.” JeeJee sneered and kicked the box away. Kavdragon’s neck snapped. Rivulets of blue blood trickled down his neck.
Palmar, unichan and stefftastiq gasped in horror. Their numbers were the same now. There was no way they could win. They closed their eyes as the axes fell on them, cutting deep into their bodies. The last of the town blood had been spilled.
The Mafia looked at each other and nodded in satisfaction. Now they could discover why their great leader had brought them to this place. The power that reverberated around the square needed to be harnessed. They went to work.
Kavdragon the Veteran has been lynched. Palmar the Vanilla Townie has been killed in endgame. unichan the Vanilla Townie has been killed in endgame. stefftastiq the Vigilante has been killed in endgame.
JeeJee, prplhz and dementrio the Mafia Goons have earned a flawless victory
Flawless Mafia Victory! Congratulations to JeeJee, prplhz and dementrio!
On June 12 2011 11:49 JeeJee wrote: Can't believe you were actually vet. 2 vets in this size game is quite odd isn't it?
It was an attempt at encouraging some players to play a stronger town game, it was originally going to be a medic, but I felt like vets encouraged not lurking, while medics suggested more hiding as to not make oneself a target.
I retrospect it might of been better to just go with one vet, but it worked out.
gg. I played terribad while I was alive, basically useless sheep, and contributing nothing during day 2. Good job JeeJee, I thought that you were town right until the end.
lol - GG :-p - yeah, it was an interesting role layout.
was way to easy for the scum to fly under the radar :§ lesson learned.
All three scum has gone through the whole game almost without any suspicions against them - what did we do wrong? should we have pushed harder for them to post more? none of these guys has hardly been pointed at from anybody - except from a few times which they somehow cleared :-p How would a proper functioning town figured this out? :p
On June 12 2011 11:57 stefftastiq wrote: lol - GG :-p - yeah, it was an interesting role layout.
was way to easy for the scum to fly under the radar :§ lesson learned.
All three scum has gone through the whole game almost without any suspicions against them - what did we do wrong? should we have pushed harder for them to post more? none of these guys has hardly been pointed at from anybody - except from a few times which they somehow cleared :-p How would a proper functioning town figured this out? :p
You should have gone after lurkers with a vengance, force them to commit to opinions, make them posts or kill them, since the last thing you want is to bring them with you to LYLO, nothing sucks more than hitting lylo with a lurker who never posted more than one line per day.
Also if everyone agrees to a lynch, its almost guaranteed to be a bad lynch, especially if its a lynch at LYLO, the moment that Kav hit 4 votes the thread should have exploded in discussion.
Much like in other SNMM town wasn't active enough the last two days or so to catch scum.
Yeah, push for more activity is probably the best idea - funny tho that all the classic scum mistakes like claiming at bad times, defending players and being indecisive were mostly done by town players :-p
@prplz i was -so- close to shooting you instead of youngminii well played
It's over heh. Like I said, I was sorry to leave this town because from what I saw I knew I was going to have some fun either way. Kudos to comrades- you guys were awesome!
lol hesmyrr you bastard. Last night I got bored so I read the thread and did an analysis and I had the scum team as JeeJee/Prplhz/Unichan after day 1.5, and its all because of how you posted on Day 1 that I didn't get you, I read your posts and it ran pretty much exactly what I had been thinking. You didn't give me much to work with and what you did looked really town. It's a shame that you had to drop out, and then dementio didn't really post.
Also props to Palmar for playing exactly like I would. I was sure that either you or jeejee were the guy leading the mafia, and the only reason I thought it could of been you is because if you were playing like me, it was going to be hard to read. Excellent day 1 play, its a shame you kind of sheeped on the last day. I think if any of you actually went back and read the whole thread you would of been able to see the mafia team. I only read up to day 2, and then checked to see who claimed vig, then I had my scum team of unichan/jeejee/prplz.
mafia team overall played pretty well, although I think it might of been good if you tried to have jeejee roleclaim the vig hit. He had a very strong town presence. Instead you basically let the town have a confirmed town from a shady suspect pool which if anyone truly went back and read the game, I feel jeejee and prplhz stood out in the thread, which means that you two could of been the next two day lynches, and the later the game goes the more of chance you lose because of all the available information.
Any particular reason for killing me night 1? I know I was on to youngminii before my death, but dementrio scored on my scumboard too. Prplhz totally got me though, because he was like in the other games.
When someone looks slippery clean, then he is imho scum more often than not. Town players post without fear, so they tend to look a bit scummy. I don´t know why people never catch on to that.
@Mataza No there wasn't a particular reason for killing you on day1. I was kinda tasked with finding someone and sending in the kills and I went to random.org and it brought me to you and I didn't see why that would be too terrible so you got hit. Blame atmospheric noise.
Also, why was I so scummy? I actually read Ver's townie guide as preparation to this and I thought I played very townie at least first day and a half .. My day1 sinani206 lynch proposal was based solely off the day1 lynch in Ver's guide .. The town was selfdestructing already so there was enough room for scum to act townie .. I'd love any feedback from anybody 'cause I'd really want to improve, and also 'cause I'd probably play like this as town too and I don't want to be acting scummy as townie
yea I think despite all the flak lurkers get, lurking is pretty much the best way to not get lynched. I only played 2 games, both as scum, and got deep by lurking while town was yelling "lurkers you are scum! but I'll lynch the active guy!"
look also at unichan who was here till the end. Imo someone who talks will always look more suspicious than someone who doesn't. It sucks because I think it makes for less enjoyable games
On June 12 2011 21:15 dementrio wrote: lurking is pretty much the best way to not get lynched. town was yelling "lurkers you are scum! but I'll lynch the active guy!"
It sucks because I think it makes for less enjoyable games
On June 12 2011 12:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol hesmyrr you bastard. Last night I got bored so I read the thread and did an analysis and I had the scum team as JeeJee/Prplhz/Unichan after day 1.5, and its all because of how you posted on Day 1 that I didn't get you, I read your posts and it ran pretty much exactly what I had been thinking. You didn't give me much to work with and what you did looked really town. It's a shame that you had to drop out, and then dementio didn't really post.
Well to be fair I dropped off at very early stages, so it is likely I would have tipped you off somehow when people actually start to vote seriously and stuff. Actually I never managed to finish any of the games recently hasn't I, considering I had to drop off at Pokemafia exactly at the same way (at least I think I also established pro-town rep there so my replacement wasn't THAT detrimental).
Also while I concur everyone needs to be looked at - quite lot of game I observed was lost due to that fallacy - not sure that the shyness/indecisiveness itself is hallmark of scum. Maybe it that player continues that behaviour throughout the day, maybe. I deliberately tried to appear aggressive, and I think JeeJee was quite active as well. In fact if you look at my previous posts you can see I got freebie attacks on most townies precisely because they weren't bold enough and simply insinuated stuff.
On June 12 2011 21:15 dementrio wrote: yea I think despite all the flak lurkers get, lurking is pretty much the best way to not get lynched. I only played 2 games, both as scum, and got deep by lurking while town was yelling "lurkers you are scum! but I'll lynch the active guy!"
look also at unichan who was here till the end. Imo someone who talks will always look more suspicious than someone who doesn't. It sucks because I think it makes for less enjoyable games
and that's a meta-game we have to change.
I know that next game I play I will shout for lynching all lurkers
Palmar the problem with that, is a lot of the time its not feasible to kill all the lurkers which is a problem. We definitely need DT's and Vigi's to cut down lurkers though, because wasting lynches like that is stupid.
Right, so I know I played, but I'll post my thoughts on a few things.
The number one thing that everyone should take from this game is to look at voting reactions. This game was clearer than it will almost ever be, so it can provide a very good example:
Day one: Everyone piles on the votes. There is NO way that mafia would let one of their own get that high in the votes without a fight, and the only real reason why I didn't press that point was because I was vet and didn't think that it would be possible for two vets in the same setup. Otherwise, this should have been a clear indicator that Sinani was innocent. (Sure, the replacement isn't necessarily scum, but at least you have a much clearer town read on Sinani than you do on the replacement). I was stupid for ignoring that fact too much.
Day two: Everyone votes at the beginning of the day, and there is no real push for a different lynch. I don't think there was ever a person with over 1 vote until the end, other than OriginalName. In addition to this, there was VERY little discussion about anything that day. That won't happen if scum are unhappy with the lynch. Again, another huge tell that OriginalName wasn't scum. (I'm actually going to revise the statement I made earlier, and say that the reaction from people is MORE important that the initial analysis.)
Day three: Again, the same thing happened: There was really only one person up for lynch, and not a lot of discussion surrounding it. No one was fighting for me, and people were making weak arguments against me. Even though I explained my play, people keep on the vote. Late in the day it should have been clear from the reaction to the voting that I was town, if not from an analysis of my play.
Look for things like this in future games because more often than not they will flip someone before they die and you can revise the lynch.
I for my part failed terrifically on my analyses, but read the responses correctly. Perhaps with this game as a reference I will be able to convince people of the truth of reading the response better.
I'd actually be interested to know why those townies left voted for me, because I thought that I explained myself rather well. (Especially with the vet claim that would make no sense for me to use after Sinani flipped Vet AND I said that it's perfect for scum to fake claim).
Congratulations to the mafia, you guys played well.
On June 06 2011 05:39 Varpulis wrote: If you would be so kind, please tell us
who you think is town, and why
who you think is mafia, and why
If you had to lynch somebody other than stefftastiq, who would it be and why
OriginalName Postlist:
points out the obvious
"chill" post
answers a question that doesn't have to do with him
joke
sleeping in excuse post
votes for stefftastiq
What we may have here is a scum trying to hid among the actives with 6 contentless posts since the Day 1 post.
youngminii Much like ON until he votes for Palmar. I'm not really sure what to make of him.
Mataza He switches from his usual townie style after being accused and then not a lot of content after that. Not much more to say.
JeeJee He has been quite town-friendly. Good content, especially in his later posts.
unichan Lurks, votes for Palmar, and then unvotes, saying it was just to see how Palmar would react. This is a scummy excuse because he didn't say he was doing it for a reaction when he voted.
Palmar Confusing.
Kavdragon Says to focus on lurkers then lurks.
dementrio Hesmyrr was very active and town-friendly and dementrio's first post seems to continue this trend.
Varpulis Most active, but sometimes this is what the mafia try to do. 75% town.
prplhz Medium activity, tries his hardest.
stefftastiq I am sticking with him unless one of the other players I marked red surprises me.
If I couldn't vote for stefftastiq, I would vote for Kavdragon, because he is a lurker and scummy.
I guess I'm really good at scumhunting? Like some type of insane vanilla townie role?
On June 06 2011 05:39 Varpulis wrote: If you would be so kind, please tell us
who you think is town, and why
who you think is mafia, and why
If you had to lynch somebody other than stefftastiq, who would it be and why
OriginalName Postlist:
points out the obvious
"chill" post
answers a question that doesn't have to do with him
joke
sleeping in excuse post
votes for stefftastiq
What we may have here is a scum trying to hid among the actives with 6 contentless posts since the Day 1 post.
youngminii Much like ON until he votes for Palmar. I'm not really sure what to make of him.
Mataza He switches from his usual townie style after being accused and then not a lot of content after that. Not much more to say.
JeeJee He has been quite town-friendly. Good content, especially in his later posts.
unichan Lurks, votes for Palmar, and then unvotes, saying it was just to see how Palmar would react. This is a scummy excuse because he didn't say he was doing it for a reaction when he voted.
Palmar Confusing.
Kavdragon Says to focus on lurkers then lurks.
dementrio Hesmyrr was very active and town-friendly and dementrio's first post seems to continue this trend.
Varpulis Most active, but sometimes this is what the mafia try to do. 75% town.
prplhz Medium activity, tries his hardest.
stefftastiq I am sticking with him unless one of the other players I marked red surprises me.
If I couldn't vote for stefftastiq, I would vote for Kavdragon, because he is a lurker and scummy.
I guess I'm really good at scumhunting? Like some type of insane vanilla townie role?
That's pretty hilarious. Though, at that point in the game I think I wasn't too far off of that either.
On June 12 2011 21:15 dementrio wrote: yea I think despite all the flak lurkers get, lurking is pretty much the best way to not get lynched. I only played 2 games, both as scum, and got deep by lurking while town was yelling "lurkers you are scum! but I'll lynch the active guy!"
look also at unichan who was here till the end. Imo someone who talks will always look more suspicious than someone who doesn't. It sucks because I think it makes for less enjoyable games
i think you're undervaluing your posts and how they made you look townie
it's almost as if you and jeejee took ver's guide, got all the parts under "people that are townie" and then applied that to yourselves this game
so in other words good job ^^
also, man am i glad i played this before playing any of the bigger games, i feel as if i played horribly this game compared to how i played before and will try to fix it
Ty ^^ but mind that by "lurking" i don't mean not caring. I actually put a lot of effort in my posts, and spent more time than I proably should have on them, to sell myself as town. The problem is that it feels more like writing a school report rather than playing a party game, and goes against the spirit of mafia someone's on-the-spot reaction should play as much of a role as his analysis.
I think being "out there" and spewing posts all over would be more fun, but it would be much harder for me to do - especially since I don't have any town experience - while at the same time I run a much greater risk of getting lynched even if I do it well.
Ty ^^ but mind that by "lurking" i don't mean not caring. I actually put a lot of effort in my posts, and spent more time than I proably should have on them, to sell myself as town. The problem is that it feels more like writing a school report rather than playing a party game, and goes against the spirit of mafia someone's on-the-spot reaction should play as much of a role as his analysis.
I think being "out there" and spewing posts all over would be more fun, but it would be much harder for me to do - especially since I don't have any town experience - while at the same time I run a much greater risk of getting lynched even if I do it well.
detectives help
i can't remember the last time i played a game without a detective honestly, well besides completely vanilla townies vs regular scum i guess we relied on blue roles too much this game
I hate detectives. If I ever decide to host again, you can be pretty sure there won't be any detectives. *now like one year from now you guys can WIFOM my statement to death *
EPT
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What particularly gave you such impression?
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