EPTMicro-MAFIA (The First) - Page 8
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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johnnyspazz
Taiwan1470 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 26 2010 11:52 citi.zen wrote: Also, I am asking you specifically Ace since you are most likely to know lynching someone who claimed blue made little sense. You played a LOT of games and thought about these sort of situations many times. ??? You must not know me ^_^ I'm one of the few people who'd lynch a DT or medic claiming Day 1 in a second. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 26 2010 12:16 Ace wrote: ??? You must not know me ^_^ I'm one of the few people who'd lynch a DT or medic claiming Day 1 in a second. Why is that? | ||
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Versatile
United States396 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 26 2010 12:24 Versatile wrote: he hates 1st day roleclaims. they can't be substantiated until a death occurs for the most part. We all have times when we "hate" how others play, but in the end the whole premise of the game is you "play to win" not "play to eliminate those you feel are idiots". | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 26 2010 12:25 Ace wrote: because they can't be proven and they usually have no reason to claim. If you're a Medic especially, argue your way to hell and back until you are 100% positive no one is going to change and you are sure you've made lots of rational pro-town arguments. If you RC you die that night anyway. If you live because people change their minds you live to make a possible protection. 1. He didn't role-claim until he was pretty sure to be getting lynched. Of course, I agree with you that a stronger player would have tried to argue their way out of being lynched instead. Still, this claim did not come out of the blue. 2. If a medic claims it's still better to let the mafia waste the KP, no? Why waste the lynch instead and let the mafia kill someone else? So I am far from convinced it makes sense to kill someone who claims blue. I am not saying claiming on day 1 is the smart thing to do, but given that some player does it, I see no rational reason to vote them off. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
If a medic claims why should you let them live? Look at what you're suggesting: Player A claims medic on day 1. The town lets him live, saying that if the Mafia kill him he's proved he is a medic. The Mafia knowing this, has a really good option not to kill the medic because the town will lynch him the next day. If the medic lives that night, the town can't go back and say "well maybe the Mafia decided not to hit him". Why would we? We'd be back in Day 1 a player short and in the same position. Then there's the classic argument of why would Mafia claim Medic when they are about to die - why not? The optimal play is staying alive.If scum feels a medic claim will confound the town, let him live another day and be able to weasel away with it then he's winning. Just because players are bad doesn't mean the play the town made was bad itself. He flipped medic but everything before his claim was terrible play. Any good player would have called for his head. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
The Mafia knowing this, has a really good option not to kill the medic because the town will lynch him the next day. If the medic lives that night, the town can't go back and say "well maybe the Mafia decided not to hit him". Why would we? We'd be back in Day 1 a player short and in the same position. Next day there still isn't any good reason for the town to lynch him, unless the mafia happened to kill a medic during the night making it plainly obvious he was lying. Otherwise the same logic applies: let the mafia waste the KP and/or wait for a DT check or a competing medic claim/death to clarify things/provide more information. Then there's the classic argument of why would Mafia claim Medic when they are about to die - why not? The optimal play is staying alive.If scum feels a medic claim will confound the town, let him live another day and be able to weasel away with it then he's winning. If a red role-claims they are taking a major risk: the "real" blue is out there looking to nail them. This is a better position for town than what we have now. If the "real" medic somehow dies the town automatically knows the initial role-claim was false and bam, we have a red. The bottom line is that there is no reason for the town to risk killing a blue. Even if the mafia lets them live to spread confusion, or even if the claim was false and he was red, the town has more information. Again, I feel like you know all this and we're just going through the motions here. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
The Mafia knowing this, has a really good option not to kill the medic because the town will lynch him the next day. If the medic lives that night, the town can't go back and say "well maybe the Mafia decided not to hit him". Why would we? We'd be back in Day 1 a player short and in the same position. Next day there still isn't any good reason for the town to lynch him, unless the mafia happened to kill a medic during the night making it plainly obvious he was lying. Otherwise the same logic applies: let the mafia waste the KP and/or wait for a DT check or a competing medic claim/death to clarify things/provide more information. There IS a good reason for the town to lynch him. Look, if the Mafia never hit a medic but always get their kills through the real medic is essentially useless. What is the town going to do? Blame the medic? They can't because they aren't even sure the medic is legit. Do you think the REAL medic is going to roleclaim?! Seriously? Which is going to definitely result in a dead medic that night - the same thing you want to avoid. Mafia don't waste KP killing medics - thats exactly what they want. Medics aren't there to take bullets that is just absurd thinking. Then in a small game as this, you want the DT to RC the medic which just helps what I'm trying to tell you - the DT must not believe the medic claim. Else why would he "waste a rolecheck" right? :D If a red role-claims they are taking a major risk: the "real" blue is out there looking to nail them. This is a better position for town than what we have now. If the "real" medic somehow dies the town automatically knows the initial role-claim was false and bam, we have a red. The bottom line is that there is no reason for the town to risk killing a blue. Even if the mafia lets them live to spread confusion, or even if the claim was false and he was red, the town has more information. Again, I feel like you know all this and we're just going through the motions here. You don't ever let unconfirmed power roles run around. You don't let players live "because they might be blue". Unless they have very convincing arguments then they shouldn't be left alive. There IS no better position for the town. If you have an outted medic and the Mafia know they can get kills off with the medic still living THE TOWN LOSES. Point blank. Because the longer the medic lives in the open with the claim the more sketchy the medic looks. Everyone who has played with me knows I will kill Day 1 claimers. Ask any decent player thats played with people that aren't afraid to false claim and you'll see them rage about how dumb the town was for letting the guy live "because he might be legit". Scum's entire strategy revolves around staying alive. I guess if I live tonight, role claim DT tomorrow and say I got an innocent result on Fishball I deserve to live right? Because I might be a blue and no one counter-claimed me. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
There IS a good reason for the town to lynch him. Look, if the Mafia never hit a medic but always get their kills through the real medic is essentially useless. It seems wrong to assume an untrustworthy medic is useless. As long as they are alive, the medic can still protect people each night. Worst case scenario: they protect scum, and people still get killed, no worse than having no medic. However, there is a chance they will protect someone the mafia would hit, particularly in such a small game where it’s not THAT hard to keep track of who is doing what. What is the town going to do? Blame the medic? They can't because they aren't even sure the medic is legit There are no PMs in this game, everyone plays in the open & the medic decides what to do/who to protect. It thus makes very little difference if the town thinks the medic is "legit". Do you think the REAL medic is going to roleclaim?! Seriously? Which is going to definitely result in a dead medic that night - the same thing you want to avoid. If a red lied and the “real” medic is still alive there are plenty of scenarios where it makes sense for them to RC. For example… if there is only one red left in the game - the fake claimer. Mafia don't waste KP killing medics - thats exactly what they want. Medics aren't there to take bullets that is just absurd thinking. Once the medic is about to be lynched anyway they might as well try to take a bullet - it's better than dying for no reason what-so-ever. Play to win, not to get even, right? Then in a small game as this, you want the DT to RC the medic which just helps what I'm trying to tell you - the DT must not believe the medic claim. Else why would he "waste a rolecheck" right? :D I never said the DT should RC immediately. There are scenarios down the road when, if the DT is still alive and the guy who claims medic is acting really shifty or there is a limited set of suspects it might make sense to RC them. You don't ever let unconfirmed power roles run around. You don't let players live "because they might be blue". Unless they have very convincing arguments then they shouldn't be left alive. There IS no better position for the town. If you have an outted medic and the Mafia know they can get kills off with the medic still living THE TOWN LOSES. Point blank. Because the longer the medic lives in the open with the claim the more sketchy the medic looks. If a shifty medic lives a few more nights he gets to protect people + we don't waste a lynching. I guess if I live tonight, role claim DT tomorrow and say I got an innocent result on Fishball I deserve to live right? Because I might be a blue and no one counter-claimed me. As I explained before, if anyone role-claims blue I would assume they are indeed blue, or red, but at any rate not green. At this point you've sort of made too many confusing arguments for my taste, so I would be leaning towards red. The one thing making me hesitant is this: On March 22 2010 02:34 L wrote: I think this game is going to be worth watching from the outside to see Ace and Vivi go at it. Of course, if what's going on here is a pre-existing grudge it would mean you aren't doing the town (or yourself) any favors. | ||
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Abenson
Canada4122 Posts
I have water polo tournament (provincials, Yay!) this weekend and I'm just about to leave for it. Unfortunately, the coaches have placed a ban on all computers, video games, etc. So I will be unable to bring my laptop. Therefore I will be inactive for the next 3 days, sorry for the inconvenience. You may replace me if you have to. I apologize again for this and I hope the rest of you have fun. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I am going by this, unless I screwed up the counting: - The earliest the mafia can win is night 3. The chance of this occurring randomly is approximately 24%. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
On March 27 2010 00:13 citi.zen wrote: By the way, mafia KP is 1 in this game, right? + Show Spoiler + I am going by this, unless I screwed up the counting: - The earliest the mafia can win is night 3. The chance of this occurring randomly is approximately 24%. Yes. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 27 2010 00:01 haster27 wrote: Lol I think nobody is paying attention to this thread that much to have pulled off maneuver that tried to save vivi57. Either way, I thought it did not matter b/c he was going to get Mafia-killed right after anyway, and we did not have any secondary clear suspect to go against. We also didn't have a clear no. 1 suspect though. The important thing is: do you think it was the right call to lynch him after he claimed blue? | ||
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