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Ok, Marv, you seem like you're calming down a bit. I just skimed this ban discussion, and I think my comments to BH are relevant.
Basically, BH asked me what to do about the situation after marv had posted that he had a Hydra QT in the thread, post modkill. After reading the situation and listening to BH, here is what I told him.
[4/23/2013 1:36:08 AM] Jack "iGrok" Dickerson: The ban wasn't justified at all. Idk why you did it, but he's completely in the right. That being said, post-death posting is completely against the rules and Marv has been around long enough that he definitely knows this (not that inexperience would be an excuse). However, his postgame rant had nothing to do with his alignment and in no way even insinuated at it. Other players may try to meta-game his ban to learn information, but that is their own risk. Ordinarily (say in a no-flip game), this would simply be dealt with by escalating a ban by one degree, with no further action needed. Your co-host is right in that a modkill of one head is usually matched with a modkill of the other head, but there are precedents where this doesn't happen (in the case of modkill for out-of-thread behavior). So in this case, I would leave Geript in game, announce that -all- Hydras get QTs (as you have already done, don't do it more than once), and post-game give Marv a Warning for posting after death. As for yourself, I would take a short break from hosting after this game, I know I tend to get very control-y when I've hosted for too long. Play some normals for a couple months. That should take care of everything .
I could at most see a 1 game ban for Marv, but at the very least a warning. Marv, you know better than to post after death. That is one of the rules that you do not break.
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As a player in this game, Id like to chime in.
The incident caused chaos and confusion. Had it not occured the game would have been much different. Marv was in the wrong here by posting after being killed, and the situation could have been better handled by the hosts. There isnt much to say about how it effected the game, because people were shouting modconfirm and talking about HOST ACTIONS rather than legit play. Cut and dry. Geripts image went from scummy to "lolmodconfirmedtown" due to this, and thats pretty much it.
I thought the game was entertaining still, but it was unfortunate that nobody saw Geript was scum near lylo. Oh well. Its not the end of the world.
Marv did a douchebag move imo, but it doesnt deserve a ban. Hes a vet player and knows what hes doing. I propose a warning, like a super warning, and any other action of this nature should be punishable by many game bans. In essence; dont do anything like this again. If host-player interaction occurs keep it OUTSIDE OF THE GAME. If a player is modkilled for said outside behavior, leave reasons undisclosed until post game.
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MArv has ban/warning history that isn't updated in the banlist, so I'd say 1-game ban, no more, no less, as a followup to my previous post.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
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On May 19 2013 08:06 marvellosity wrote:
i'd take a one-game.
well bargained and done.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
I've always known the neutral barlog would be the perfect peace mediator.
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
I think a one game ban is reasonable as well.
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Speaking as an uninvolved party, I think a 1-game ban is appropriate.
Clearly some sort of punishment beyond a warning is required. Marv's actions were clearly game-altering and unacceptable. As a veteran of TL Mafia and a host, he should know better. Furthermore, this isn't the first case of Marv letting his emotions break the boundaries of sportsmanship (see: ragequit in Mafia LXIII).
However, I don't support anything beyond that because quite frankly, his initial modkill was bullshit and he had every right to be upset about it. Furthermore, I don't think it was Marv's explicit intention to ruin the game. It looks like an outburst of frustration, which given the circumstances is understandable (but should not go unpunished).
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I would never let marv join one of my games hes clearly nothing but trouble.
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On May 19 2013 08:42 kitaman27 wrote:
I've always known the neutral barlog would be the perfect peace mediator.
I'm a neutral, surviving Balrog. Who, just as a reminder, pulled two protects that stopped attempts to kill me. :D
Also, LOL Coag I love you, in that way that its not you, its me.
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On May 19 2013 09:30 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2013 08:42 kitaman27 wrote:
I've always known the neutral barlog would be the perfect peace mediator. I'm a neutral, surviving Balrog. Who, just as a reminder, pulled two protects that stopped attempts to kill me. :D Also, LOL Coag I love you, in that way that its not you, its me.
neutral surviving balrogs represent
best role on tlmafia imo
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only thing that ruined this game was shitty town
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On May 19 2013 09:00 Hapahauli wrote:
Speaking as an uninvolved party, I think a 1-game ban is appropriate.
Clearly some sort of punishment beyond a warning is required. Marv's actions were clearly game-altering and unacceptable. As a veteran of TL Mafia and a host, he should know better. Furthermore, this isn't the first case of Marv letting his emotions making him break the boundaries of sportsmanship (see: ragequit in Mafia LXIII).
However, I don't support anything beyond that because quite frankly, his initial modkill was bullshit and he had every right to be upset about it. Furthermore, I don't think it was Marv's explicit intention to ruin the game. It looks like an outburst of frustration, which given the circumstances is understandable (but should not go unpunished).
I agree for the most part. Marv's Post-Death-Post had no alignment relevant information, nor (intended) game altering information. It was an explanation of his exchange with the host. Any effect it had on the game was from other players choosing to take the lazy route of not analyzing geripts actions, instead trying to mind-fuck BH's actions.
The lesson here shouldn't be for marv, it should be for everyone who decided to try to solve the game with a shortcut, and ultimately paid the price for it. If someone brings up TL LXI as a warning next time a player tries to meta-game the host, then this game has served its purpose.
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I am sorry for the inactivity. I knew I should have come on, and posted, the night before, but I was just too tired. Got here a bit late. With the lax voting rules, it was hard to get into a groove of when days were going to be ending, in my defense. Will take whatever is necessary.
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If anyone cares I think Marv should definitely take a ban. Once you're modkilled you shut the fuck up. I don't care if the modkilling was reasonable or not.
Regarding BH and his decision, I feel the game is completely invalid based on his actions or non-actions. We don't really have a protocol for punishing hosts, I guess, and to be honest the general assumption is that a host is a god in his own game. I repeatedly pointed out in this game where players were breaking or abusing rules, I PM'd Blazinghand immediately and explained why geript needed to be removed:
[23:43:27] <Palmar^> you need to modkill him [23:46:40] <Palmar^> Marvellosity posted "after death" in the thread and revealed information the thread should not have gotten [23:46:54] <Palmar^> I know it's harsh on geript, but when you hydra with someone you have to be co-responsible [23:47:40] <Blazinghand> fair enough [23:47:55] <Palmar> That's my opinion at least [23:48:27] <Blazinghand> I'm going to talk to geript and my co-hosts, and then I will make a decision. You have a really good point. [23:49:06] <Palmar> yeah take your time to make a decision [23:49:14] <Palmar> you could maybe ask someone outside the game for advice [23:49:22] <Blazinghand> i've been talking to mr. wiggles [23:49:26] <Palmar> ok cool [23:49:37] <Blazinghand> normally I'd ask you but you are unfortunately a player lol [23:49:41] <Palmar> yep [23:49:51] <Palmar> and emotionally invested in the situation [23:50:03] <Palmar> I want him dead with the fury of a thousand suns [23:50:10] <Blazinghand> LOL
I wasn't the one who brought the modconfirm thing up, because I didn't think far enough. But if I wanted to lynch geript (which I think my posting proves I was willing to do) here's three townies who immediately responded to the situation:
On April 22 2013 05:57 kushm4sta wrote:
So getmoript is now mod confirmed town LOL
On April 22 2013 06:01 Hopeless1der wrote:
theres scarcely the need for a separate qt when you're scum. its not 100% but I actually agree with kush for a change.
On April 22 2013 06:05 VisceraEyes wrote:
Mods need to stop modconfirming people as town in these games fo riz.
Resulting in me once again wanting a modkill.
On April 22 2013 06:06 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:33 getmoript wrote:On April 22 2013 05:29 Blazinghand wrote:
Marvellosity (and only marvellosity) has been removed from the game for repeated refusal to follow the rules for out of game communication and being a dick to me.
Please keep all discussions of modkills until the post-game.
Getmoript has not been modkilled. Ok. I'll tell you how it is given BH is being an enormous megalomaniac. geript and I had a QT made for ourselves, which we have been using quite happily. BH decided that we should use the QT that he made, because he's a power-mad weirdo. I said we're fine with the QT that geript and I made thank you, and BH is now swinging his dick around, saying we're forced to use a QT that he made, despite the rules saying nothing about this, and despite the rules only having this restriction, which we followed: On March 22 2013 20:48 Blazinghand wrote:
Hydras:
If one of the players would like to hydra with someone else, that is acceptable. Please inform me. Your hydra can have any name, but the signature should be something like "Hydra of Blazinghand and Ange777 for TL Mafia LXI" so that people know what's up.
There were no such rules for out-of-game communication other than that that BlazingHand just edited in to the rules so that he'd be justified being a douchebag. Anyway, glhf everyone!! ~marv tbh this should result in a modkill. It's super unfair to the mafia that he's allowed to reveal information about the nature of the hydra and how it interacts with the host that results in everyone just assuming they're town. It's also super unfair to town if they're somehow mafia despite all this.
I don't even understand why people bring up the whole "you should have known something was up when he wasn't killed blah blah". Of course I fucking knew something was up, here's a link to a compilation of me knowing something is up:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18630954
That isn't the point, as I said in one of the quotes there
getmoript - still looks awful, but cheated and didn't get modkilled so lynching him is pointless. if he's scum the game is invalid .
This is how I played the game. Obviously at the end my absolute insane desire to win took over, especially since I hate getting lynched, but this is the attitude I had towards that game.
Again, we don't have rules to punish hosts, and technically BH didn't do anything wrong, he just controlled a game in a way that I thoroughly disagree with. So personally I doubt I'll be signing up for his games in the near future, but yeah... I don't know what to do about it.
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Fuck. Palmar is like the biggest bad arse ever. <3
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On May 20 2013 01:05 Palmar wrote:If anyone cares I think Marv should definitely take a ban. Once you're modkilled you shut the fuck up. I don't care if the modkilling was reasonable or not. Regarding BH and his decision, I feel the game is completely invalid based on his actions or non-actions. We don't really have a protocol for punishing hosts, I guess, and to be honest the general assumption is that a host is a god in his own game. I repeatedly pointed out in this game where players were breaking or abusing rules, I PM'd Blazinghand immediately and explained why geript needed to be removed: Show nested quote +[23:43:27] <Palmar^> you need to modkill him [23:46:40] <Palmar^> Marvellosity posted "after death" in the thread and revealed information the thread should not have gotten [23:46:54] <Palmar^> I know it's harsh on geript, but when you hydra with someone you have to be co-responsible [23:47:40] <Blazinghand> fair enough [23:47:55] <Palmar> That's my opinion at least [23:48:27] <Blazinghand> I'm going to talk to geript and my co-hosts, and then I will make a decision. You have a really good point. [23:49:06] <Palmar> yeah take your time to make a decision [23:49:14] <Palmar> you could maybe ask someone outside the game for advice [23:49:22] <Blazinghand> i've been talking to mr. wiggles [23:49:26] <Palmar> ok cool [23:49:37] <Blazinghand> normally I'd ask you but you are unfortunately a player lol [23:49:41] <Palmar> yep [23:49:51] <Palmar> and emotionally invested in the situation [23:50:03] <Palmar> I want him dead with the fury of a thousand suns [23:50:10] <Blazinghand> LOL I wasn't the one who brought the modconfirm thing up, because I didn't think far enough. But if I wanted to lynch geript (which I think my posting proves I was willing to do) here's three townies who immediately responded to the situation: Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:57 kushm4sta wrote:
So getmoript is now mod confirmed town LOL Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:01 Hopeless1der wrote:
theres scarcely the need for a separate qt when you're scum. its not 100% but I actually agree with kush for a change. Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:05 VisceraEyes wrote:
Mods need to stop modconfirming people as town in these games fo riz. Resulting in me once again wanting a modkill. Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:06 Palmar wrote:On April 22 2013 05:33 getmoript wrote:On April 22 2013 05:29 Blazinghand wrote:
Marvellosity (and only marvellosity) has been removed from the game for repeated refusal to follow the rules for out of game communication and being a dick to me.
Please keep all discussions of modkills until the post-game.
Getmoript has not been modkilled. Ok. I'll tell you how it is given BH is being an enormous megalomaniac. geript and I had a QT made for ourselves, which we have been using quite happily. BH decided that we should use the QT that he made, because he's a power-mad weirdo. I said we're fine with the QT that geript and I made thank you, and BH is now swinging his dick around, saying we're forced to use a QT that he made, despite the rules saying nothing about this, and despite the rules only having this restriction, which we followed: On March 22 2013 20:48 Blazinghand wrote:
Hydras:
If one of the players would like to hydra with someone else, that is acceptable. Please inform me. Your hydra can have any name, but the signature should be something like "Hydra of Blazinghand and Ange777 for TL Mafia LXI" so that people know what's up.
There were no such rules for out-of-game communication other than that that BlazingHand just edited in to the rules so that he'd be justified being a douchebag. Anyway, glhf everyone!! ~marv tbh this should result in a modkill. It's super unfair to the mafia that he's allowed to reveal information about the nature of the hydra and how it interacts with the host that results in everyone just assuming they're town. It's also super unfair to town if they're somehow mafia despite all this. I don't even understand why people bring up the whole "you should have known something was up when he wasn't killed blah blah". Of course I fucking knew something was up, here's a link to a compilation of me knowing something is up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18630954That isn't the point, as I said in one of the quotes there Show nested quote +getmoript - still looks awful, but cheated and didn't get modkilled so lynching him is pointless. if he's scum the game is invalid . This is how I played the game. Obviously at the end my absolute insane desire to win took over, especially since I hate getting lynched, but this is the attitude I had towards that game. Again, we don't have rules to punish hosts, and technically BH didn't do anything wrong, he just controlled a game in a way that I thoroughly disagree with. So personally I doubt I'll be signing up for his games in the near future, but yeah... I don't know what to do about it.
If you'd read my post you'd see that I told him (and he agreed) to take several months off from hosting.
There are ways to say exactly what you said without coming across like, well, Palmar 
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I'm a nice guy, I promise.
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I guess I should chime in, since BH asked me for my advice when this happened.
Basically, he asked me what he should do in this situation, and I told him he should either kill the whole hydra, or else just the one head and make a note in the thread about QTs being given to everyone regardless of alignment. He decided to take the second option, and I helped him with what he should say exactly.
After he decided to keep the one head alive, he was still unsure because people were calling for a modkill and saying stuff about being modconfirmed town. I told him at that point to stick to the decision he made because it was unfair to the one player to be told he was still in the game and then kill him, and that if people continued to say stuff about being modconfirmed, it was the players making a conscious choice to ignore the host and use information that was explicitly labelled as a non-tell. As well, players commented on the modkill, and that could actually have become game relevant information now since the hydra wasn't immediately flipped. So, after making the choice to not flip the hydra, I felt BH should stay with it.
I read the situation without having followed the game at all. Reading the post Marv made after death, there didn't look like there was any game relevant information in it, just him complaining about QTs and the modkill, so I thought it would be alright to leave the other head alive in that case if that's what BH wanted. The players decided to draw their own conclusions about it, and the host made a post saying that the information in Marv's post was irrelevant. If players decided to continue to use that information to determine the hydra's alignment, that was their own choice.
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On May 20 2013 03:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I read the situation without having followed the game at all. Reading the post Marv made after death, there didn't look like there was any game relevant information in it, just him complaining about QTs and the modkill, so I thought it would be alright to leave the other head alive in that case if that's what BH wanted. The players decided to draw their own conclusions about it, and the host made a post saying that the information in Marv's post was irrelevant. If players decided to continue to use that information to determine the hydra's alignment, that was their own choice.
You cannot expect a group of players who mistrust each other to collectively decide how to use or not to use information they should not have in the first place.
A few players questioned whether or not the modconfirm thing was of any value at all, but that isn't the point. If even one player slightly adjusts his read, the entire game for every player is ruined. You don't play mafia in a vacuum.
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EPT
