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Join the LiquidLegends 2017 Worlds Pick'em Group! Ban bets!!Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold- better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser]- Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] |
I still think Bang and Wolf will do well against most bot lanes not called Pray/Gorilla or Ruler/CoreJJ. DoubleLift could do it, but I don't think Bio is up for the job. Zven Mithy could also shine, they'd have to make it out of groups first .
Looking at their group right now, I don't think SKT has to worry too much against AHQ bot laning phase, but curious to see if iBoy can keep up his ridiculous performance.
SKT also needs to make sure when they play non-KR teams they stay on top of counter-ganking the mid lane aka ganking for Faker, in MSI especially, Faker ALWAYS GETS CAMPED. why?
Teams have been camping Faker since the beginning of time, because if you leave him alone he tends to win lane naturally and carry games. It's a bit harder now because most mid lane competition has gotten better but he can still do it when he gets playmaking champions.
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On September 18 2017 19:21 AzAlexZ wrote: SKT also needs to make sure when they play non-KR teams they stay on top of counter-ganking the mid lane aka ganking for Faker, in MSI especially, Faker ALWAYS GETS CAMPED. why? Because hur durr beating and trashing Faker hurr durr = makes me feel like a god hurr durr then there's also the no-longer existing seemingly invincible aura of botlane from earlier this year or last year No it's because Faker plays with no respect for anything and always has done.
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On September 16 2017 16:16 DarkCore wrote: They ranked WE over RNG, and I can totally stand behind that. Even though technically the playoffs placed the CN teams the other way round, EDG is probably still the weakest team of the three if everyone plays their best. I would place EDG over TSM and G2 though, I think it's going to be a KR/CN dominated worlds this year. So, out of curiosity, why are people in general giving China so much respect for this worlds? Claiming that Korea is head and shoulders above every other region is easy to justify based on history, but claiming that China is the clear #2 region and the main competitor to Korea is not.
China made it to the finals in both 2013 AND 2014... but they haven't posted great results in more recent years. In 2015, they got one team into quarterfinals, where it got 3-0'd by an EU team. In 2016, they got two teams into quarterfinals, and that's as far as they made it.
Now, I'm not saying China is awful- 3 quarterfinals appearances combined in 2015-2016 is still a lot better than NA's 1 quarters appearance in the same time span. I just don't get why people still assume China is second only to Korea after coming well short of that two years in a row now.
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On September 19 2017 04:48 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 16:16 DarkCore wrote: They ranked WE over RNG, and I can totally stand behind that. Even though technically the playoffs placed the CN teams the other way round, EDG is probably still the weakest team of the three if everyone plays their best. I would place EDG over TSM and G2 though, I think it's going to be a KR/CN dominated worlds this year. So, out of curiosity, why are people in general giving China so much respect for this worlds? Claiming that Korea is head and shoulders above every other region is easy to justify based on history, but claiming that China is the clear #2 region and the main competitor to Korea is not. China made it to the finals in both 2013 AND 2014... but they haven't posted great results in more recent years. In 2015, they got one team into quarterfinals, where it got 3-0'd by an EU team. In 2016, they got two teams into quarterfinals, and that's as far as they made it. Now, I'm not saying China is awful- 3 quarterfinals appearances combined in 2015-2016 is still a lot better than NA's 1 quarters appearance in the same time span. I just don't get why people still assume China is second only to Korea after coming well short of that two years in a row now. I think a lot of it comes down to RR, honestly. The prevailing sentiment was that all non-KR major regions were relatively equal post MSI. It's the problem with limited international play, opinions are based on recency bias and regions can only be judged by how their top teams perform.
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I rank them so high because I watch LPL, which I think most people in the west don't. I try to base my opinions on what I see and not on history, because technically it shouldn't hold any weight in your rankings (except that Korea always does well, and not acknowledging that is a kind of bias in itself). Don't get me wrong, I don't think CN is super ahead of the other regions. But I find the region in general is ahead in average quality compared to NA and EU, mainly because of the bottom teams. That's not really a surprise, the LSPL is a true second league filled with properly funded teams, unlike the challenger scene in the LCS. Any floundering team in the LPL will be replaced by an up and coming LSPL team.
+ Show Spoiler +CN has a lot of clown fiestas, there are games where teams do dumb stuff and play quite poorly. But they tend to be quite proactive, especially in the regular season. Even lower ranked teams will make moves and try to force objectives, unlike some of the snooze fests you see in the LCS, where teams trade objectives but someone didn't quite think it through so someone gets ahead. And this proactive play is really showcased by the better teams: if you watch some of WE's dives in the playoffs and qualifiers, you will be impressed. I find their macro play is also very good, the best out of CN. However, teams like EDG and RNG make up for this with brute skill and good team fighting., while showing moments of brilliance that let them take down the likes of WE. The days of iG yoloing and absolute blood baths every game are gone, but sometimes it still happens because teams try to get back into the game by answering with risky, individual play and knife edge team fighting. CN teams don't turtle when behind much, and when the whole league is like that, it forces team to improve their macro and rotations.
Going further with that line of thought, you would be shocked to see how often individual players carry games in the LPL. There is a reason Scout and Xiaohu are so terrifying to play against, and it's because if you let them sit in lane, they will either a) crush their lane, or b) farm up and then outplay your entire team. LPL has a lot of carry players, and they carry hard. Pretty much every team in the LPL has someone who is a ticking time bomb, who will naturally carry the game. There are so many games where Scout has gone off and outplayed the enemy midlaner, and then butchered the entire enemy team. Yes, good macro will keep these guys in check, but that is why it is all the more amazing when they find the small cracks and tear them open. Players rarely do that in LCS, there are a few who have the talent (Doublelift, Zven, Perkz, Bjerg), but they prefer building moderate cs leads and only punishing grave errors. Scout and Flandre would dump on Exileh and Balls so hard there'd be a hole in the lane, and the gold gap would be so big they wouldn't be able to play the 'but I have good team fighting power with my champ' strategy.
Here's how I imagine the G2 vs RNG games will go:
75% RNG will win LetMe vs Expect is a bit hard to say. I think LetMe would win the lane, but I think Expect will not feed, unless he plays extremely poorly or gets camped. Mlxg is hands down a better jungler than Trick, and I expect it to show. Would not be surprised if the game gets turned on its head because Mlxg dominates. Perkz vs Xiaohu is hard to say as well. Perkz plays his best? He could hold himself in lane, and then team fights you'd have to see. Perkz has a bad day? Xiaohu will mow him over in lane, because Xiaohu doesn't have bad days. As for bot lane, Zven and Mithy are going to play behind in lane, but unlikely to die without some magic by Mlxg. But it's Worlds-Uzi, and that means he reaaaaaaaaally wants to win.
G2 has a realistic chance of winning, but I don't think it would happen in a standard game. Assuming the laning phase goes relatively even, I think overall RNG has better team fighting, and Uzi/Xiaohu are just scary to play against. But Mlxg will probably not let the laning phase play out quietly, expect a TP dive somewhere, that will probably be pulled.
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Thanks, Darkcore, for a great post!
Related somewhat to this, I wasn't impressed with RNG's draft in their first game against WE (didn't have time to watch the rest yet). Do you think that's a structural 'flaw' of RNG and might affect your 75% winning chance against G2? Or maybe you think their draft was fine?
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I'd like to watch China, but it's on at the same time as Korea and I can't balance the two with my timezone.
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United States37500 Posts
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On September 20 2017 10:26 NeoIllusions wrote: VODs? I don't have time to watch Korea and China through vodsm even being selective about games, and have any other leisure life outside of esports after taking into account NA, EU, and some Starcraft.
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I watch the KR and CN games simultaneously, mute the stream I find less boring. I think for a good taster, watching the playoffs and qualifiers are a start.
Some fast sifting through the VODs: + Show Spoiler + iG vs OMG G1 give you an idea of how proactive and bloodthirsty games. Also how individual play carries games. OMG started the season well but fell off over the course. In fact the whole series is a perfect example of what makes the LPL great and what makes it a clown fiesta.
iG vs WE, the difference between the playoffs and the qualifiers. WE was tilted off the face of the earth in their playoff games, they could have beaten RNG but Xiaohu decided it was not to be. Compare the first games in each series, they are sooo different, practically different teams. Friendly reminder that West is one of the worst ADC in the LPL, and he's still making plays and carrying. Also, Rookie Yasuo mechanics, so sweet.
All the EDG playoff games. Watch iBoy, and realize those are his first competitive games. Wtf??? How does this guy hold his own against the likes of Uzi lol. I want to see this guy at Worlds 100%. Uzi also shows us that when you're an ADC god, Ezreal can still be played in the bot lane (also pre buffs I believe, so he might pull it out at Worlds as well).
I don't have time to watch Korea and China through vodsm even being selective about games, and have any other leisure life outside of esports after taking into account NA, EU, and some Starcraft.
Fair enough, I don't watch a lot of NA and EU unless it's major teams, even then I tend to only look at the results. And I stopped watching SC a long time ago.
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Riot shitposting haha.
Mfw Scout is only ranked 19, and Xiaohu is ranked 5. They should be ranked a lot closer after the finals, if Scout's performance doesn't get him into the top 10 then what kind of bar is Riot setting.
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Your laughs made me expect Bjergsen in the top 3
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On September 20 2017 23:05 Sent. wrote: Your laughs made me expect Bjergsen in the top 3
Bjergsen over Bang is pretty fucking hilarious
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United States37500 Posts
If we're talking about most recent form, it's not a long stretch. I'm a big Bang fan but he was very underwhelming during the LCK finals. PraY on the other hand...
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On September 21 2017 07:13 NeoIllusions wrote: If we're talking about most recent form, it's not a long stretch. I'm a big Bang fan but he was very underwhelming during the LCK finals. PraY on the other hand... I get this, but Bang plays well when it matters. You can say that LCK summer champs matters, but it really didn't. They locked up worlds. Idk what it is about SKT, but they find a way to win when it really matters. I still remember Bang's Lucian game in Spring playoffs years ago. Some people have the will to do things regardless. Statistically there isn't a clutch factor, but it's one of the few stats I don't believe. Everybody has one thing they can't find a way to lose at. One thing that they have the balls to be fearless no matter how grim it looks. The poise to stare down a confirmed loss and force their opponents to throw away a game. That's the thing about SKT; they create that in their players. It's hard to believe it this year because Huni and losing a whole patch. But there's zero chance SKT isn't in the finals and there's zero chance SKT loses to anyone in the finals that isn't Korean.
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Was thinking about getting up early to watch the games but the match ups don't look too promising. Hoping for a Brazilian surprise (c9 has to pay their debt one day) or strong showing from Gambit
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I know this is a play in but this crowd is weak
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Vedius/Flowers already off to a fantastic start and the games havent even started
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