EPTSamsung win the 2017 World Championship! - Page 95
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Join the LiquidLegends 2017 Worlds Pick'em Group! Ban bets!! Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold - better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser] - Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] | ||
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Gahlo
United States35150 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On his best moments he was really really good., but there's also a reason the 'Ohq moment' became a thing. It's a pity he went to NA (?) though. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35150 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 06 2017 06:18 DarkCore wrote: Imp was better when he was in SSW, but it will always be hard to judge his skill because his support was Mata, the best player in the world at that point. Now Mata is supporting Deft, who I think is a lot better than his days in SSB, but again I'd say Mata enables him to play better. Your holy trinity is pretty funny, because I have never considered there to be any ADC in KR that dominated long enough to be considered for such a position. I mean, off the top of my head, ADC that held the number 1 spot: - Piglet - Imp - Pray - Bang - Deft - Ruler - Score - Ohq Remind me of anyone I've missed. Point is, every ADC in KR has had far shorter 'peaks' than other roles. It's a role where small mistakes cost you games because you get blown up since you're the main target. Highly rated Korean AD carries throughout the seasons. Some are consensus Korean community opinions, some are my own. Season 2: 1) PraY: Undebatable, there was a seismic shift in the scene after he made his debut. The most domestically dominant AD carry in history, although he didn't always show that kind of domination on the international level. 2) Cpt Jack: The standard against which all Korean AD carries were judged versus. 3) Locodoco: SBS may have been superior mechanically, but Locodoco was worth more as a whole due to his cerebral nature. Season 3: 1) imp: Replaced PraY as de facto number one AD carry of Korea, outperformed all his opponents most of the season. 2) Piglet: Formed an intense rivalry with imp, but was mostly outmached apart from his stellar form during the Season 3 World Championship. 3) PraY: Struggled to keep his spot after the ascension of new blood AD carries. Season 4: 1) imp: Although less mechanically impressive than before, as stated by his former teammate Dade, due being less dedicated during practice, imp managed to stay on top due to evolving other facets as a competitive gamer. 2) Deft: From a pure skill perspective, almost all Korean players, including imp himself, said that Deft had surpassed imp. Monstrous during practice, but always somewhat lacking compared to imp in actual televised matches. 3) Bang: Known for his fierce laning during the initial stages of his career, and huge fluctuations in performance. Season 5: 1) Bang: Less impactful than his rivals abroad, but showcased unmatched stability and dominated all domestic opposition. It seemed like he slowly traded his impeccable laning for superior positioning during team fights. 2) imp: Won the battle between Deft and himself in terms of leading their new teammates to success. 3) PraY: Had a resurgence in form, but was outperformed by Bang both domestically and internationally. Season 6: 1) PraY: Outperformed Bang by playing to his strengths, utility and proactive playmaking. 2) Bang: As his DPS maximization and overall stability strengthened, his other assets began to atrophy, until the phrase that Bang is the strongest laner in Korea no longer was true any more. 3) Deft: The best performing Korean export, and part of the Season 6 holy trinity of Korean AD carries (which is what I was referring to earlier in the thread). Season 7: 1) PraY: Proved his worth by making domestic champions out of unproven talent that had potential but zero direction. 2) Ruler: Was outshone by his peers during the early stages of the season, but kept evolving until he reversed the one sided nature he used to have versus Deft. His rate of improvement was clearly noticeable to anybody who followed him all year. 3) Deft: Known for his huge variation in form, but a tilt-free Deft unleashed is the closest thing to a force of nature out of a Korean AD carry this season. Although the above list is by no means a lock-in, it does somewhat show how unreal PraY's presence was, even if his return to glory in 2015 was made possible by the huge void left by those who left for China. PraY has lost his position as the best mechanical carry from Korea since the arrival of imp in late 2012, but managed to stay relevant due to his other qualities, which are by far the most game changing qualities I've ever seen from any AD carry, Korean or otherwise. You can literally ask anybody working in the Korean League of Legends scene, and probably everybody would probably agree with the phrase that PraY is the greatest genius from the AD carry position to ever come out of Korea. imp may have had more visceral carrying instincts, and Deft may have been more astounding skillwise, but imp stopped maturing as an overall package after he left Korea, and Deft has always remained as that hugely talented, but ultimately flawed player. Bang could have had a legacy that matched PraY if he kept improving as a player, but his lack of drive ultimately manifested in the worst possible manner in the greatest of stages this year. I'll have zero hesitation in saying that PraY is the greatest Korean AD carry of all-time as of today. No other AD carry has matched his longetivity at the highest level, and although one wonders about an alternate timeline where the mass exodus to Chinese did not happen, one has to face the consequences of his actions. Sure there is no telling how the career arc of imp, or Deft might have been had they stayed in Korea, but no amount of wishful thinking is going to change what actually happened, and I'm not here to discuss the midichlorian count of various players under imaginary circumstances, but the actuality of what took place in the competitive scene. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Season 2: WeiXiao was a cut above PraY during season 2. Even Bebe taught PraY a thing or two during their match-up in the quarter-finals. Season 3: Uzi was superior to imp during season 3. Uzi did lose lane to Piglet in the finals, but that was mostly PoohManDu (the greatest MOBA talent to come out of Korea alongside Faker) doing most of the work, especially since Tabe was no where near up to par with his opposing support. I was impressed with NaMei after he hard carried his shit-tier team Positive Energy to domestic victory, but wasn't too moved by his subpar performance versus CJ Entus Blaze in the finals of WCG 2013. Season 4: imp was more well rounded than Uzi, and since his hard carrying style was never quite at Uzi's level, it did not matter that his mechanics weren't as crisp as before. Uzi was more suited for hard carrying a shit team with his brute force manner, while imp had evolved into a more nuanced ranged carry that could complete a world class team. In short, it is pretty much a toss up. I don't know what it is about NaMei that makes him suck dick when faced against Korean teams, perhaps it was a mental issue since the disparity in performance seemed so vast. Season 5: Korean exports outperformed homegrown AD carry talent from China during 2015, but Bang was out performing everybody whether it was on the domestic stage, international stage, or even in solo-queue. While his style was not as exhilarating to watch, I believe this was the first year that the best Korean AD carry was a cut above the rest of the field. Season 6: For two seasons in a row there isn't anybody that outstanding out of Korea. Uzi is outperformed by Deft on the domestic level, and outclassed by Bang on the international level. Season 7: Korean AD carries aren't as impressive as the two previous seasons, due to Bang's huge dip in form, and the generally decent showing Uzi had versus a top notch Korean AD carry in Ruler. Once again, Chinese AD carries match, or outperform their Korean counterparts. Basically, apart from the very beginning of the Korean League of Legends scene, the argument that Korean AD carries are being outperformed by their international counterparts mostly depend on the form of Uzi than anything else. Once Uzi was out of the equation, I think you can actually make the case that the top three Korean AD carries were actually the top three AD carries in the world, which was never the quite the case when Uzi was in form. This season it was pretty much a wash. If people think it is a huge accomplishment to outperform the worst iteration of Bang, I guess you also have to give props to the likes of Teddy, PraY, Ruler and Kramer, who also were stomping on him during the Summer Season. Bang was there on the merit of SK Telecom T1 as a team, not as the representative of the best AD carry to come out of the domestic season. PraY was doing just fine versus non-Korean opposition. Ruler was outperformed by Uzi during the group stages, but he was the best performing AD carry in the knock out stages, which should count for more. So once we take away 2012, which I admit was quite a weak showing from Korea as a whole, there wasn't a single player outside of Korea that made me envious of the AD carry talent pool abroad, except for Uzi in 2013, 2014, and maybe 2017. Literally nobody outside of an in form Uzi made me seriously question whether Korea had the best AD carries since 2013, and that's including players such as NaMei. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
- With Season 7 finished, PraY is my pick for best KR ADC, taking everything into consideration. Bang might have more titles than any other player in that role but as far as consistency goes, esp if you do consider he's been playing with GorillA for all these years, PraY gets my vote. - Deft and imp had flashes of brilliance but never the longevity. They both peaked "early" in the scope of 7 years, then never climbed any higher. - Even after winning Worlds, Ruler is still mediocre at best for me. From S6 to S7, he's definitely improved but he's more of a role player than a hard carry. And maybe he's happy with that and/or that's just exactly what SSG wants from him. I do think chasing championships is way more important than vying for arbitrary "best player" at your position. - I haven't been impressed with a CN ADC since WeiXiao. - Varus is a good champ, esp considering the playstyle of someone like Ruler. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 06 2017 12:31 cLutZ wrote: I'd say both KR ADCs we're out performed in the semis this year. We didn't get to see much of what the EDG botlane could do because Scout+ Clearlove were terrible, so its entirely possible that guy is good as well. If it is recognition one seeks after outperforming Bang after the Summer Season started, they should get a number and get in line. You don't see anybody doing songs of praise for Kramer, for instance. You don't even need to see the limited game pool of Season 7 World Championship to see who could be potentially currently be better than Bang, just rewatch the LCK 2017 Summer Season if that achievement is particularly noteworthy in your eyes. If you're going to count Mystic as a non-Korean AD carry, that's fine, but let's be honest here. Any half decent Xayah player is going to have a field day with a Xayah/Rakan combination, and Mystic is more than capable at that specific champion. Once Xayah was banned out, Mystic's threat was all but nullified, and Ruler could abuse the fact that he was the superior Varus player compared to Mystic. Hardly a one sided affair, and one that was heavily influenced by the pick and ban phase. Like I said before, I judge players for their performance throughout the year, not how much they showed up versus foreign competition. Impressing the international audience is hardly the main basis of merit for a player, considering the level of domestic competition compared to the rest. If I were to tunnel vision solely on a couple of weeks of performance abroad versus random international teams, Piglet would become the number one AD carry for Season 3 despite the fact that imp was by far the superior player for most of the year. Likewise, I don't think it's fair to crown Ruler as the best AD carry from Korea this year just because he probably had the best performance out of a Korean AD carry during the Season 7 World Championship. He spent most of the year getting shit on by Deft, and only turned things around towards the very end. You could argue that being good for the World Championship is all that matters, but that's more an application in logic that makes sense for non-LCK players, who spend most of the year playing versus less than stellar competition. Results have proven that LCK is not inferior in terms of overall competitive level compared to the World Championship, and I tend to see the World Championship as another season of the LCK with an exotic twist. Of course, the prize pool and prestige does increase its importance, but with the non-stop patches and ever fluctuating forms from various players, it becomes incredibly fickle, and somewhat unwise to base judgement on players from a single tournament on a single patch, especially since counter-measures for that limited perspective are luckily available for the LCK players. You, as a spectator, have the choice to judge LCK players throughout the entire year across various patches and meta-games versus the very best competition, if you are truly interested in finding out for themselves who was the best overall. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 06 2017 12:57 NeoIllusions wrote: Solid posts by Letmelose taking it season by season, then from KR and international perspectives. My two cents on a few things: - With Season 7 finished, PraY is my pick for best KR ADC, taking everything into consideration. Bang might have more titles than any other player in that role but as far as consistency goes, esp if you do consider he's been playing with GorillA for all these years, PraY gets my vote. - Deft and imp had flashes of brilliance but never the longevity. They both peaked "early" in the scope of 7 years, then never climbed any higher. - Even after winning Worlds, Ruler is still mediocre at best for me. From S6 to S7, he's definitely improved but he's more of a role player than a hard carry. And maybe he's happy with that and/or that's just exactly what SSG wants from him. I do think chasing championships is way more important than vying for arbitrary "best player" at your position. - I haven't been impressed with a CN ADC since WeiXiao. - Varus is a good champ, esp considering the playstyle of someone like Ruler. It is astonishingly difficult to be like Faker who: 1) Has great results domestically and internationally. 2) Performs fantastically both domestically and internationally. 3) Is able to make highlight reel worthy plays in lane and in team fights, as well as having a good mind for the game. 4) Is able to adapt to the meta-game changes across all the seasons. 5) Is generally capable of accomplishing great results with various line-ups. Faker is literally the only player in League of Legends history where the answer is "yes, he is superior to everybody else in almost all regards". It is extremely unfair to have that sort of threshold to everybody else, and down play their excellence, even if it somewhat one dimensional in nature. I mean, come on, we can still appreciate excellence even if it is not quite Faker-level extraordinary. Like I mentioned before to another poster, I believe it is unfair to accuse PraY of being overrated just due to the fact that he cannot outperform Uzi on a mechanical level, when his long tenured ability to gain success for his team through his overall package as a player alongside his respectable enough mechanics speaks for themselves. It is also somewhat unfair to fault imp and Deft for lacking staying power, when no player of their position outside of PraY has them beaten in terms of longetivity. Hell, even Uzi spent two years from 2015 to 2016 being outshone by Deft on a domestic level, and generally being a non-factor in the grand scope of things during those two years unless stomping Doublelift is somehow considered to be a noteworthy accomplishment. Ruler peaked at the right moments to gain all the glory, but that is an achievement in itself, because it is ridiculously hard to dominate all opposition throughout the year, and proving your worth on the biggest stage on top of that. WeiXiao, for all intents and purposes, had one of the worst longetivity out of an all-time great. If somebody like NaMei, someone who did absolutely nothing on the world stage multiple times, can literally drag the lifeless bodies of his teammates to a domestic championship (somebody as bad as Aluka did not deserve a domestic championship), WeiXiao should have at least qualified from his region more than once if he wishes to remembered for having even have a semblance of longetivity at the highest level. I mean, even performance in-game is so heavily influenced by extraneous circumstances it really is next to impossible to accurately gauge the true worth of an individual player in a vacuum setting. Bdd spent last year being part of that disastrous CJ Entus line-up that managed to get themselves relegated. It's not like his teammates were beyond salvation (the likes of Haru, Kramer, and Untara were all there alongside him). Exactly one year later, Bdd goes on to win the domestic championship with an impeccable KDA record. It truly does not matter how our perception of individual gaming prowess is, because only a year ago, none of us knew about the true potential of Khan, and how deadly he could be on the right sort of champions. There's a whole bunch of players whose unleashed potential is waiting to be released, and there are the kind of players that an entire dynasty can be built around. I always found an abundance of the former, and severe shortage of the latter throughout all of history. PraY is one. Ambition is another. I used to think MaTa was one, but I think his evolution as a player halted after going to China, so I'm currently on the fence for that one. MaRin given the right set of circumstances could be another, but it's difficult for me to think of a top laner you can build literally build a team around. Faker is the ultimate exception due to the fact that he joins the ranks of these players and has the ability to style on people week in, week out. This characteristic is most easily recognizable in Hai out of all the non-Korean players, but it's a shame that the gift was given to such a mediocre player in terms of talent. The problem with in-game leaders tends to be that once they themselves do poorly, and go on tilt, it becomes difficult for them to function as the voice of reason. If Hai dedicated himself to reach a level where he wasn't a liability skillwise, he could have been the greatest North American player of all-time in my opinion. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
EDIT: I'm assuming you're not copping out and saying Bjerg as an answer as he's not NA, despite what Riot says | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On November 07 2017 06:14 chipmonklord17 wrote: Who would you call the greatest NA player of all time then? Like I get what your saying about him being all together mediocre mechanically (for pro standards) but who could you give the title to? I'd say it would have to be someone on the original C9 roster, doublelift, or MAYBE a pobelter or Xmithe but I can't really see the justification for anyone else but Hai. He's been to worlds on multiple rolls, performs pretty well for NA standards at said worlds, and has plenty of titles under his belt. Plus he's the best NA In Game Leader of all time EDIT: I'm assuming you're not copping out and saying Bjerg as an answer as he's not NA, despite what Riot says Doublelift. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35150 Posts
On November 07 2017 06:14 chipmonklord17 wrote: Who would you call the greatest NA player of all time then? Like I get what your saying about him being all together mediocre mechanically (for pro standards) but who could you give the title to? I'd say it would have to be someone on the original C9 roster, doublelift, or MAYBE a pobelter or Xmithe but I can't really see the justification for anyone else but Hai. He's been to worlds on multiple rolls, performs pretty well for NA standards at said worlds, and has plenty of titles under his belt. Plus he's the best NA In Game Leader of all time EDIT: I'm assuming you're not copping out and saying Bjerg as an answer as he's not NA, despite what Riot says By those criteria Xmithie is an invalid answer also. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Its Double easily if you don't count/blame him for those multiple seasons of CLG dysfunction (I don't really, IMO Hotshot needed to sell majority ownership a while ago to help the team). If you do, I'd put Hai slightly ahead. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 07 2017 06:14 chipmonklord17 wrote: Who would you call the greatest NA player of all time then? Like I get what your saying about him being all together mediocre mechanically (for pro standards) but who could you give the title to? I'd say it would have to be someone on the original C9 roster, doublelift, or MAYBE a pobelter or Xmithe but I can't really see the justification for anyone else but Hai. He's been to worlds on multiple rolls, performs pretty well for NA standards at said worlds, and has plenty of titles under his belt. Plus he's the best NA In Game Leader of all time EDIT: I'm assuming you're not copping out and saying Bjerg as an answer as he's not NA, despite what Riot says Ignoring your edit, as I assume everyone else will, the domestic answer is clearly Bjergsen or Doublelift, with runners-up being Hai, Sneaky, Aphromoo. This assumes you give points for longevity, and aren't just going by peak single split performance, in which case the answer would be the entire debut squad of C9. The international answer is going to be unsatisfactory, because it would be like asking who is the greatest Jamaican at bobsledding. The only possible answer is going to be someone from C9: Sneaky, or maybe Hai. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On November 07 2017 07:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ignoring your edit, as I assume everyone else will, the domestic answer is clearly Bjergsen or Doublelift, with runners-up being Hai, Sneaky, Aphromoo. This assumes you give points for longevity, and aren't just going by peak single split performance, in which case the answer would be the entire debut squad of C9. The international answer is going to be unsatisfactory, because it would be like asking who is the greatest Jamaican at bobsledding. The only possible answer is going to be someone from C9: Sneaky, or maybe Hai. The best North American player can't be a Dane. The question wasn't, who's the best player in NALCS, but who is the best North American player. I personally think its between Hai and Doublelift with Hai edging him out. I kind of forgot Aphro but I suppose he goes on that list of 'justifiable' candidates. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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