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United States37500 Posts
On September 17 2013 06:04 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:54 oneofthem wrote:
point is there can be a plateau for talent, rather than endless rapid succession. the latter is only really seen in teh beginning of a game This is where I disagree - assuming the game is a good enough game to be an "ESPORT." At the end of BW we were still seeing innovation and new talent rising or old talent reemerging - there was, at no point during the 10+ year history of BW, a plateau. I think for long time esports fans like you and myself, we know this to be the case. A lot of newer players/fans have yet to experience this for themselves, which is a good thing! Just review the comments from these articles pre OGN spring finals: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414891http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417163Look at the comments from Letmelose and Neoillusions in the first thread. That was the prevailing opinion of Ambition at the time; oh how fast they change. The higher the peak, the more spectacular the fall.
CJ's cursed, I tell you. Not my fault. :<
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United States23455 Posts
don't worry
flame moving to mid. going to join shy and madlife. s4 champions already confirmed.
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On September 17 2013 05:58 Fionn wrote:Two feeders shall enter. Only one will leave with a KDA over 1.
As uninspiring as Dade looked, Yume was challenging Teege and Inspirio for the pure outright livestock statuette for ultimate feeding. It was bad.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On September 17 2013 06:09 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 06:04 Sandster wrote:On September 17 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:54 oneofthem wrote:
point is there can be a plateau for talent, rather than endless rapid succession. the latter is only really seen in teh beginning of a game This is where I disagree - assuming the game is a good enough game to be an "ESPORT." At the end of BW we were still seeing innovation and new talent rising or old talent reemerging - there was, at no point during the 10+ year history of BW, a plateau. I think for long time esports fans like you and myself, we know this to be the case. A lot of newer players/fans have yet to experience this for themselves, which is a good thing! Just review the comments from these articles pre OGN spring finals: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414891http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417163Look at the comments from Letmelose and Neoillusions in the first thread. That was the prevailing opinion of Ambition at the time; oh how fast they change. The higher the peak, the more spectacular the fall. CJ's cursed, I tell you. Not my fault. :<
On May 29 2013 23:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Kids already comparing Faker to Ambition, wot?
People need to know who's the real deal.
neo pls you are the biggest bandwagoner LOL
On September 17 2013 06:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 06:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 17 2013 05:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:50 oneofthem wrote:
in the start of brood war, or any other game, new talent and strats were coming up constantly, so it'd be silly to expect a top player to stay on top.
but when you have a situation where the top ladder player is still the top player, and he's pretty much as talented as players can be, then that guy is pretty legit. at this point vague generalities like 'no player can stay on top forever' will have to answer to the question of what source of talent is coming to dwarf him. i don't see any the rest of korea like i don't understand how you guys are so set on "faker will be god forever" when we literally said the same thing about ambition and dade. Hindsight is 20/20 and you can deny and point out supposed differences all you want, and i will call bullshit - it's the exact same pattern, but every time, we say "NO, you don't get it, THIS time will be different" sure faker may reign for a bit, but no one will reign forever is not a vague generality, it's a universal truth Yeah, but faker doesn't have to play against himself ? And steal his own mojo Basically faker is shang shung from mortal kombat
I don't get it D:
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lmao
I don't get it D:
All the top mids faker has beaten have spiraled and started to perform poorly.
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On September 17 2013 06:06 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:54 oneofthem wrote:
point is there can be a plateau for talent, rather than endless rapid succession. the latter is only really seen in teh beginning of a game This is where I disagree - assuming the game is a good enough game to be an "ESPORT." At the end of BW we were still seeing innovation and new talent rising or old talent reemerging - there was, at no point during the 10+ year history of BW, a plateau. an individual strategy game sees both talent and strategic evolution. so we can say for instance a player like nada was a top talent, but his strats were not as advanced. nada didn't fall out of the top for a long long time, and eventually there will be nada type guys in any sport. nada is still pretty terrifyingly good even if you time machine him to 2010 bw. the same cannot be said for earlier pros who were just as dominant, but were just dominant because the scene was small. obviously though, new talent will be generated, but at the beginning of a scene there's a progressively larger and larger talent pool that is getting into the game, and you do reach a more gentle rising slope of talent level as time goes on. but yea, if there is another faker type guy rising in the korean ladder scene, then i wouldn't be saying "faker will stay on top for a while" with as much confidence. but atm there's no guy like that. maybe in a few months we'll see the next faker making his debut, but a guy like that will have a big reputation already, so it's not a surprise for people who follow the scene.
It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can't be the best until you beat the best. Until that matchup happens, most reactions are "Well this kid is good, but let's see if he can compete against a REAL top/mid/bot laner". If he loses, the reaction is "See? Told you the old guard was the best." If he wins, it's suddenly massive chain reaction of "OMG THIS GUY IS SO GOOD I KNEW IT ALL ALONG! combined with WOW THAT OLD GUY SUCKS HARD NOW!"
Korea is great at identifying and developing great talent. Players with high ceilings get taken in by established organizations and developed to be world-class players. Just look at SKT - all great solo queue players, and initially relied entirely on raw talent alone, but ultimately developed into a true team. Unfortunately, NA/EU do not have this infrastructure in place, and talented players have to risk giving up their livelihoods to form a squad with a group of 4 other unproven players.
EDIT: I agree - if CJ comes back next season as 1 team, with Shy/Flame/Madlife + two hungry amateurs, they'll be a damn scary team. We'll call it CJ Megazord, or CJ Captain Planet.
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United States37500 Posts
On September 17 2013 06:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 06:09 NeoIllusions wrote:On September 17 2013 06:04 Sandster wrote:On September 17 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:54 oneofthem wrote:
point is there can be a plateau for talent, rather than endless rapid succession. the latter is only really seen in teh beginning of a game This is where I disagree - assuming the game is a good enough game to be an "ESPORT." At the end of BW we were still seeing innovation and new talent rising or old talent reemerging - there was, at no point during the 10+ year history of BW, a plateau. I think for long time esports fans like you and myself, we know this to be the case. A lot of newer players/fans have yet to experience this for themselves, which is a good thing! Just review the comments from these articles pre OGN spring finals: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414891http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417163Look at the comments from Letmelose and Neoillusions in the first thread. That was the prevailing opinion of Ambition at the time; oh how fast they change. The higher the peak, the more spectacular the fall. CJ's cursed, I tell you. Not my fault. :< Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Kids already comparing Faker to Ambition, wot?
People need to know who's the real deal. neo pls you are the biggest bandwagoner LOL Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 06:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 17 2013 06:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 17 2013 05:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:50 oneofthem wrote:
in the start of brood war, or any other game, new talent and strats were coming up constantly, so it'd be silly to expect a top player to stay on top.
but when you have a situation where the top ladder player is still the top player, and he's pretty much as talented as players can be, then that guy is pretty legit. at this point vague generalities like 'no player can stay on top forever' will have to answer to the question of what source of talent is coming to dwarf him. i don't see any the rest of korea like i don't understand how you guys are so set on "faker will be god forever" when we literally said the same thing about ambition and dade. Hindsight is 20/20 and you can deny and point out supposed differences all you want, and i will call bullshit - it's the exact same pattern, but every time, we say "NO, you don't get it, THIS time will be different" sure faker may reign for a bit, but no one will reign forever is not a vague generality, it's a universal truth Yeah, but faker doesn't have to play against himself ? And steal his own mojo Basically faker is shang shung from mortal kombat I don't get it D:
fu, I still like Frost. Actually, I don't even know who you cheer for Cheep. diaf.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On September 17 2013 06:22 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 06:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 06:09 NeoIllusions wrote:On September 17 2013 06:04 Sandster wrote:On September 17 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:54 oneofthem wrote:
point is there can be a plateau for talent, rather than endless rapid succession. the latter is only really seen in teh beginning of a game This is where I disagree - assuming the game is a good enough game to be an "ESPORT." At the end of BW we were still seeing innovation and new talent rising or old talent reemerging - there was, at no point during the 10+ year history of BW, a plateau. I think for long time esports fans like you and myself, we know this to be the case. A lot of newer players/fans have yet to experience this for themselves, which is a good thing! Just review the comments from these articles pre OGN spring finals: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414891http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417163Look at the comments from Letmelose and Neoillusions in the first thread. That was the prevailing opinion of Ambition at the time; oh how fast they change. The higher the peak, the more spectacular the fall. CJ's cursed, I tell you. Not my fault. :< On May 29 2013 23:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Kids already comparing Faker to Ambition, wot?
People need to know who's the real deal. neo pls you are the biggest bandwagoner LOL On September 17 2013 06:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 17 2013 06:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 17 2013 05:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 17 2013 05:50 oneofthem wrote:
in the start of brood war, or any other game, new talent and strats were coming up constantly, so it'd be silly to expect a top player to stay on top.
but when you have a situation where the top ladder player is still the top player, and he's pretty much as talented as players can be, then that guy is pretty legit. at this point vague generalities like 'no player can stay on top forever' will have to answer to the question of what source of talent is coming to dwarf him. i don't see any the rest of korea like i don't understand how you guys are so set on "faker will be god forever" when we literally said the same thing about ambition and dade. Hindsight is 20/20 and you can deny and point out supposed differences all you want, and i will call bullshit - it's the exact same pattern, but every time, we say "NO, you don't get it, THIS time will be different" sure faker may reign for a bit, but no one will reign forever is not a vague generality, it's a universal truth Yeah, but faker doesn't have to play against himself ? And steal his own mojo Basically faker is shang shung from mortal kombat I don't get it D: fu, I still like Frost. Actually, I don't even know who you cheer for Cheep. diaf.
the air of mystery allows me to indiscriminately rain down shitstorms on the deserving masses
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On September 17 2013 05:21 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 05:12 XaCez wrote:On September 17 2013 05:09 Doctorbeat wrote:
Just saw SKT vs OMG, why did Bengi sell Aegis for Locket? :/ Should we tell him? Haha I got a pretty good laugh out of this.
It is funny, but it reminds me that I was intrigued by bengi's Jarvan build.
His build was basically Aegis/Locket + Madred's. It's a very cheap build (Aegis + Madred's is only 2600g), which allows Aegis to be finished by the 20 minute mark even in a fairly iffy game with a very significant amount of gold spent on wards.
Is this bengi's standard build, or was it something he adapted due to the circumstances of the game? It's obviously team oriented, and there's a lot to be said for having Aegis/Locket by the mid-game. I'm wondering, however, if he'd gotten fed off ganks if he'd have built the same way.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i'm probably quicker than most to hype unproven talent. i'd be happy to learn about the next big thing and hype the guy. but atm there's no one like that afaik.
it's kind of like baseball prospects. they can come from total obscurity like pujols or mike trout, but they still have to spend some time in the minors. in this case, the ladder and on the practice squad. by that time guys who follow prospects will know about him already.
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He built the madred's because he fell behind and needed to catch up. Madred's let's you clear camps a lot faster but offers little in terms of tankiness.
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What would you have built? I felt like that was the right build regardless - Randuins isn't all that great when OMG had renek/lee/ori/corki all not really relying on auto attacking.
On September 17 2013 06:29 oneofthem wrote:
i'm probably quicker than most to hype unproven talent. i'd be happy to learn about the next big thing and hype the guy. but atm there's no one like that afaik.
it's kind of like baseball prospects. they can come from total obscurity like pujols or mike trout, but they still have to spend some time in the minors. in this case, the ladder and on the practice squad. by that time guys who follow prospects will know about him already.
Yeah, which is why Korea's infrastructure is awesome. Who knows, maybe CJ will find the next big thing at mid laner in their latest recruiting efforts. Even great solo queue players like Faker needed time to learn to play on a team, after all.
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On September 17 2013 06:31 Sandster wrote:
What would you have built? I felt like that was the right build regardless - Randuins isn't all that great when OMG had renek/lee/ori/corki all not really relying on auto attacking.
Well, spirit golem for one. Madred's is a pretty dead end item and has no mid game-late game potential. It essentially becomes 700 gold for 25 armor.
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United States23745 Posts
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So we broke a milly concurrents on day 1?
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United States37500 Posts
On September 17 2013 07:11 nojitosunrise wrote:
So we broke a milly concurrents on day 1?
I think that's just rumors...
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Spirit Stone is a slower clear and less combat stats and won't feel any better in a "not dead-end item" way than madred's until you drop another 1300 gold into it.
When you're getting wrecked as hard as SKT were wrecked in the early game, you use these 1300 gold to survive till the mid/late game, not to be stronger if by some divine providence you survive unscathed till then.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 17 2013 06:58 onlywonderboy wrote:I knew Dade and Ambition were good, but I never made the claim they would be gods forever. Idk, something about Faker just feels different. Maybe I'll be proven wrong though. Haha, got a pretty good laugh out of Neo's comment though.Edit: Dat edit.
Ambition was never a super playmaking carry mid. He was renowned for his ability to not need a jungler's help in lane and to pretty much go even or better against anyone. Sure, he would have some insane games before Kha'zix got hit with the nerf bat, but he was never the guy who you went, 'OH MY GOD HE IS THE BEST THING EVER!'
Dade can be that player, but pretty much solely on Zed. He's probably the best Zed player in the world, but no one is ever going to be stupid like Blaze and give him Zed ever again, so he's going to get his champion pool exploited.
If he gets Zed, though, then shit will go down. But until a team loses some brain cells, he's not going to get Zed.
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On September 17 2013 06:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 06:31 Sandster wrote:
What would you have built? I felt like that was the right build regardless - Randuins isn't all that great when OMG had renek/lee/ori/corki all not really relying on auto attacking. Well, spirit golem for one. Madred's is a pretty dead end item and has no mid game-late game potential. It essentially becomes 700 gold for 25 armor.
Yeah, I'm not sure where Randuin's was brought up. We're talking about itemizing a jungle Jarvan on ~3000 gold around the 20-25 minute mark. A completed Randuin's doesn't fit into that picture.
I think Madred's was a very intentional choice. If you aren't planning on spending more than 400g on a Machete upgrade, Madred's is actually better than Spirit Stone. You get a lot more out of it in terms of clear speed whether you'd spamming abilities or not, and you get some actual tanky stats.
bengi also bought at least one pink ward almost every time he went back. Either he made a major adjustment regarding his role by essentially functioning as a second support, or he planned on having a very low gold build from the outset. It seems well thought out, but it does put a lot of the burden on all your carries or you won't remain relevant.
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Fionn/feedtime.png)
