On June 14 2013 22:11 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: but why would you get madred's after spirit stone when you can get just get wits end to farm fast AND kill fools.
And yeah the changes to jungle really help a lot. Shyvanna too. Love having twice the other junglers farm by 20min.
because madreds costs 700 and wits end costs 2400 by that argument why not get trinity force instead of wits end when you can chase fools AND kill fools for 700 gold you will get like 12% attack speed or something and almost a null magic while madreds gives you a free over 2k gold worth of attack damage for farming minions and you only need to make 200 gold to make it worthwhile (and it sells for nearly 500 too so you can sell it whenever you want once you dont need it to farm fast)
I know that there is a huge price difference. My point was when you already have a spirit stone it feels wasteful to spend another 700 gold for an item that doesn't give you too much fighting stats except the armor just to increase your clear speed. Instead you could use that 700 gold to get that wit's end quicker which does both and is a core item on udyr anyways.
Edit: I read your post again and I concede that madred's sells back for 500. But then you have to go tanky after you get madred's and spirit stone, you cant get that wits anymore or you'll be too squishy. That doesn't seem too preferable since wit's after stone seems to give me huge increase damage output and I can get it early enough that I can still survive a decent amount of punishment with W and whatever resists I have.
Anyways I'll try out getting madred and see how I like that.
lol an item that only gives clearing speed and armour doesn't give too much fighting stats except the only fighting stat it gives? wits end doesn't give too much fighting stats except for the attack speed and the magic resist and the bonus damage on hit so why bother getting it at all
also, you can sell madreds for 500, buy why? why are youignoring the 25 armour it gives, armour is probably the singe best stat for udyr in the game. The only reason to sell it is to free up slots for something else. The 200 other gold is supposed to be more than made up in farming faster and thus more gold/xp and more opportunities to gank
also I have no idea how you can say shit like, oh if you spend 700 gold, and then clear faster make more gold and then sell it for 500 suddenly you're too squishy to buy wits end, but if you farm slower and be squisier for the whole game you can buy wits end and be a beast?
it seems like your brain is completely ignoring every logical factor except for the thing that justifies your original idea I can see what you're trying to say is something like this -Wits end is a very good item -Buying attack speed helps you clear and finished wits clears even faster -Buying madreds means you buy wits end slower and it helps you clear faster but so does attack speed
However you are completely ignoring the magnitude of this. You can't claim they are equal you are completely ignoring the numberical values or everything its like a philosopher trying to solve a mathematical problem its pretty crazy
On June 15 2013 00:02 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: I see your point. I'll try getting madred's and see if I like getting it first rather than just rushing wits.
Idk i'd never get Madreds(we are talking madreds not also getting wriggles right?) but i'd never straight up rush Wits unless i was obnoxiously fed at the same time
Tiger jungle is actually good, but risky. It's more powerful in the early(due to the increased dragon/buff control)/late(due to the insane scaling it has) game than Phoenix but the items Tiger needs(AD, mainly) are not readily available in jungle tank variants. While, yes, pure tank Udyr works well, I feel that his potential is wasted without an attack speed(or attack damage, for Tiger) item and a sheen item due to Udyr's high durability and movement speed. For the sheen item, Iceborne Gauntlet, while good, isn't as good as it is on other champions due to the low cooldown of Udyr's stun. The only situation I would buy Iceborne Gauntlet on Udyr is when I desperately need to peel both dive buddies of my ADC. Another thing to consider is Boots of Swiftness. It is EXTREMELY good on Udyr because it solves most of his kiting problems. That, of course, leaves him with no tenacity item, a slot that can be filled with either Spirit of the Ancient Golem(even on Tiger Udyr that already has Wriggle's) or Zephyr(once again, even on Tiger Udyr). I'm surprised to see no mention of Nashor's Tooth or Statik Shiv anywhere. Both items are core for a splitpush Phoenix Udyr build. Cooldown reduction, while good, isn't a must-have. Udyr shouldn't expressly build cooldown reduction in certain cases(burst/assassination-heavy opposition mainly), but should be focusing on building either utility, aura or damage items.
I still feel like tiger udyr is generally worse than other champs like xin or something, before the magic damage made the damage worthwhile but with all the armour stack everywhere im not sure its worth it, but it depends on how much farm you lose from going tiger.
I think wits > nashors strictly on udyr unless you are going some weird ap build. Shiv would prbobably be better on tiger since udyr doesn't really use the crit that well so I'm not sure its better than just trinity force or something.
I think swiftness is nice but sometimes tabi is better, since surviving longer can be just as good as running faster and often better (worse against kiting aps though).
i think pheonix is best with trinity/wits+tank but you need to be so fed for that you usually get wits even if you farm a lot and have to go all tank after that. I also never find iceborn to be any use at all on him, but in theory it should be good since you stun them into the middle of a slowing field, so maybe i should test more.
Tiger Udyr's single target damage is higher therefore his ganking and objective control is far superior, especially with the new Madred's and champions like Xin and Jarvan don't offer the utility and survivability Udyr does in prolonged fights. Nashor's/Shiv is strictly is a splitpush Phoenix build and Wit's is far inferior to Nashor's in this case. Shiv is better on Tiger, yes, but Tiger excels at single-target which is not the point of Shiv. Swiftness is better than Tabi in most cases since getting to, say, the enemy ADC and stunning him helps both Udyr and his team survive longer. The only case where I've come to the conclusion that Tabi is better than Swiftness is when the enemy team has two heavy auto-attackers. Iceborn and Bear Stance overlap their CC's and while the target is stunned Udyr gets at least 2 auto-attacks in(excluding Bear, so 3 total) which offer a very high chance of Phage/Trinity slow proccing.
tiger udyrs damage isnt really higher, maybe on paper is it but realistically most people haave way less mr than armour and you also dont get to use most of the attack speed since you have to chase after people all the time, the r burst and aoe works while chasing. objective control is largely irrelevant, udyr can clear a buff in like 5-6 seconds regardless, with smite, tiger might shave a second off that but it doesnt matter.
xin and jarvan offer far more utility, surviability depends on the length of the fight. in long fights you expect udyr to outperform based on turtle stance spamming
getting to the ad and stunning him and losing half your hp is nearly always a terrible trade, having tabi won't help that much but if you are going to go in hard you'll be in better shape to finish off teh kill, swiftness is better for ganking but its not a matter of if youcan catch shit with the extra 15 ms its a matter of when, and the ninja tabi is such a high surviability boost they have to have a lot of slows for swiftness to be worth it.
getting nashors to split push with pheonix stance is retarded, pheonix stance can insta push a wave without any items, and a wits end would make the most sense since you probably want it anyway shiv is similarly retarded
Yeah seems like people are throwing around some pretty bizarre items. Here's my $0.02. For phoenix I build straight tank, no damage items as you just don't need them. Elder Golem, Bulwark, Frozen Heart would be my core, randuins after this probably. My tiger build I rush Elder Lizard, I find that gives plenty of early and mid-game gank/kill potential, then its generally Bulwark and Frozen Heart again. For tiger it seems appropriate to grab a second damage item provided you have enough survivability or are way ahead. I was thinking botrk, but should probably try wits end. Would be interested in thoughts on this.
For me phoenix give faster jungle clear early, strong early ganks, but tail off sooner than tiger. Tigers jungle clear is slower, but early ganks are marginally stronger, and I feel like he maintains power longer into the mid/late game before tailing off. Late game the role ends up being basically the same, but Tiger should better kill power on an isolated adc/squishy.
On June 16 2013 11:15 harve wrote: Yeah seems like people are throwing around some pretty bizarre items. Here's my $0.02. For phoenix I build straight tank, no damage items as you just don't need them. Elder Golem, Bulwark, Frozen Heart would be my core, randuins after this probably. My tiger build I rush Elder Lizard, I find that gives plenty of early and mid-game gank/kill potential, then its generally Bulwark and Frozen Heart again. For tiger it seems appropriate to grab a second damage item provided you have enough survivability or are way ahead. I was thinking botrk, but should probably try wits end. Would be interested in thoughts on this.
For me phoenix give faster jungle clear early, strong early ganks, but tail off sooner than tiger. Tigers jungle clear is slower, but early ganks are marginally stronger, and I feel like he maintains power longer into the mid/late game before tailing off. Late game the role ends up being basically the same, but Tiger should better kill power on an isolated adc/squishy.
I like straight tank on Phoenix but i ALWAYS throw in wits end, the attack speed + mr + stacking mr is just super nice imo.
For Phoenix my core is usually, Wits + Bulwark + Randuins Out of the prolly 200+ games I have with Udyr thats really my favorite core tbh. Frozen Heart/Visage other items situationally after your main build though. Try to snowball some kind of advantage and end early, later you just sorta peel for your adc, or go ham if you got sufficient peel for him.
Had an Udyr go Spirit stone > boots of swiftness > SotEL > Zephyr > tanky.
My god you could not catch that fuck and he'd just come flying out of bushes everywhere. I was shaco and we were both counter jungling the hell out of each other but man, once he got that Zephyr he was freaking everywhere. It probably only worked so well because he got like 2 kills and a couple assists by mid game but man it was pretty insane.
I tried the Diamondprox build last night (running ADC runes, i.e. 4% lifesteal and rest AD). I picked him because the other team had 2 melee duelists (j4 jungle and top lane lee) and the rest of their team mostly lacked cc/slows/escapes that make udyr cry. The build is an absolute BEAST, as in absolutely no melee can possibly fight you. I shoved their jungle out early in a 2v2 (taking no damage in the process) and tower dived a half hp lee at level 3, once again at 5, and spent the rest of the game in their jungle or pushing objectives.
I haven't played Udyr since s2 but I do miss the AS, MS, and clearspeed that the old 0/21/9 phoenix had. I also haven't played him since phoenix changes to see his front loaded burst, but the tiger burst is utterly ridiculous. I would never pick Udyr early though (unlike s2), and make sure they commit to some melee and not some ridiculous kite/disengage team with stuff like ashe/janna/lulu/kennen/ryze/jayce before picking him.
And please for the love of god do not run ghost on Udyr. I have no idea why so many Udyrs I see use ghost, but having flash->bear is very, very important.
On July 09 2013 01:09 Sandster wrote: I tried the Diamondprox build last night (running ADC runes, i.e. 4% lifesteal and rest AD). I picked him because the other team had 2 melee duelists (j4 jungle and top lane lee) and the rest of their team mostly lacked cc/slows/escapes that make udyr cry. The build is an absolute BEAST, as in absolutely no melee can possibly fight you. I shoved their jungle out early in a 2v2 (taking no damage in the process) and tower dived a half hp lee at level 3, once again at 5, and spent the rest of the game in their jungle or pushing objectives.
I haven't played Udyr since s2 but I do miss the AS, MS, and clearspeed that the old 0/21/9 phoenix had. I also haven't played him since phoenix changes to see his front loaded burst, but the tiger burst is utterly ridiculous. I would never pick Udyr early though (unlike s2), and make sure they commit to some melee and not some ridiculous kite/disengage team with stuff like ashe/janna/lulu/kennen/ryze/jayce before picking him.
And please for the love of god do not run ghost on Udyr. I have no idea why so many Udyrs I see use ghost, but having flash->bear is very, very important.
Gave it a try myself, vs another Udyr in normals(just so i could auto lock obv) the burst and damage on tiger is kinda obnoxious, nothing more satisfying than hitting them and walking off as they die to the Tiger DoT
EPT
