Udyr is one of my favourite champion, and since he has been tweaked recently, I think TL forums need an up-to-date guide. This guide will only focus on jungling Phoenix Udyr.
When jungling, don't learn Q except you really know what you are doing. There are some reasons why Saintvicious, TheOddOne, Diamondprox.... only take Phoenix:
Phoenix stance work better with Monkey's Agility. Switching stances already gives you a lot of AS and MS (30% AS and 15 MS at 3 stacks, and you can reach this at level 2). So all you need is damage.
Phoenix stance does decent AOE damage. As a jungler, you will use much time at Wraith camp. Faster farming lead to better map controlling.
Tiger stance force you buy Lantern. You choose lifesteal (useless on Udyr since Turtle stance already gives it) instead of mana regen, tenacity (precious stats) from spirit items.
Last but not least, Phoenix now have burst damage like Tiger. So Phoenix stance not only help you at farming, but also decent at ganking.
Monkey's Agility: Each time Udyr switches stances, he gains 5 movement speed and 10% attack speed for 5 seconds. This effect can stack up to 3 times.
One reason of his insane clearing speed. 30% attack speed at early is no joke. Also gives decent MS, so when ganking, switching stance 2 times in the bush, then go straight to the target and activate E, for max MS.
Tiger Stance: Stance Activation: Udyr gains attack speed for 5 seconds. Udyr's first attack after activation will deal bonus physical damage over 2 seconds to the target.
Persistent Effect: Udyr's basic attacks deal bonus physical damage equal to 15% of his attack damage.
I don't learn it except after winning a teamfight and I need to kill turret quickly.
Turtle Stance: Stance Activation: Udyr gains a shield for 5 seconds.
Persistent Effect: Udyr gains life steal.
The activation is what make Udyr very tanky. The shield has an AP ratio but don't think about it, CDR is what you need.
Bear Stance Stance Activation: Udyr gains increased movement speed and ignores unit collision for a few seconds. If he attacks an enemy during this time, he will also dash slightly closer to them.
Persistent Effect: Udyr's basic attacks stun his target for 1 second. This effect cannot reoccur on the same target within 6 seconds.
The only ganking tool of Udyr. Sometimes you have to save it to interrupt channeling (such as Katarina's ult).
Phoenix Stance Stance Activation: Udyr unleashes pulsing waves of fire around himself, dealing magic damage each second to enemies within 250 range for 5 seconds.
Persistent Effect: On the first attack after activation and on every third subsequent attack, Udyr engulfs enemies in flames, dealing magic damage in a cone in front of him.
Your bread and butter. Now you can proc double fire: Activating R, run to your target but don't do anything, When you reach him, attack then activating R again for another pulse.
Smite is mandatory since you are the jungler. You can choose Flash or either Ghost. Personally I prefer Ghost because with a low cooldown, it can help me gank across the map. But Flash is needed for clutch plays such as jumping over walls.
4/26/0 if you pick Ghost (Diamondprox' setup). 0/21/9 for Flash. Mastermind is amazing because it reduces Flash cooldown about 30s. You will have 30s timing window for Flash + Bear stance while enemy Flash isn't up. Have 63s cooldown Smite also help you stealing camp better (use Smite and clear all their wolf camp, then go back when your Smite is up). Since Udyr no longer has armor and magic resist from Monkey's Agility, Honor Guard is mandatory and you should pick it everytime.
After 1st Recall: Normally, Spiritstone, it is mandatory if you want to steal their 2nd buffs. Buy Philo instead if you are behind (it payback after 10 mins, so even you have an ankward midgame, you will be more useful at late game). Buy Madred + Crystaline Flask if their jungler is a very aggressive one such as Vi or Shaco.
After 2nd Recall: Boots of Speed. Sightstone if against strong ganker such as Jarvan (you need one ward at his wraith so you can track him down). Otherwise Ruby Crystal -> Kindlegem.
Mid game core items are Locket and Aegis. Bulwark if needed. Buy Spirit of Ancient Golem if you are not behind because CDR and Tenacity are great. Best boots is Boots of Swiftness.
Randuin / Frozen Heart are end game items. Shurelia is overnerfed so don't buy it. Wit's End or Iceborn Gauntlet are luxury items, only get them if you are stomping.
Those red points are where I use Smite. This route is recommended for newbie, since they don't have enough rune nor experience. Start at double golem - the safest place in the jungle help you against any invasion. Everytime you face a big monster, your Smite is up, so you will have enough sustain.
In this case, just farm your double buffs quickly. You can gank mid if there is an opening, otherwise, defend your weaker lane. It helps your solo laner, and losing bottom turret as purple team may lead to losing two dragons (iG also made this mistake when playing against WE).
I prefer Blue side when playing Udyr. There are many routes, and the first one is the most used:
The main idea is reach level 3 ASAP, so you can gank very early, and secure your double buffs. Skill order: R - W - E. Kill Wraith before Red because it spawns sooner. Since you are near your mid laner, ADC and support, you will get a hard leash at Red. So you can go straight to Blue buff, kill it then gank mid or top. After ganking, kill Wolf, recall for Spiritstone then farm.
If you just wanna farm, you can choose 2nd route:
This is very common in season 2. Skill order: R - W - R - E. Start at blue then farm across the jungle. If the enemy jungler is good at stealing or ganking, then you may lose your Red buff, or your mid laner will die few times. I am not recommend use this route since at silver Elo or higher, a jungler must have some impact at level 3.
Above is the "counter Red" route, that I use against slow jungler such as Amumu. Mana jungler usually clear Blue first if they are at purple side, so you can sneak to their Red buff and kill it in time.
Skill order: R - E. Tell your teammate hard leash your Blue. Use your Bear stance to run quickly. Lure all monsters to the bush (so the enemy wont see you). After finish, you can learn either Q or W then gank top or mid.
If you success, well that is the best route because not only you have stolen their buff, but your gank is also very powerful. But that route is useless against red starter such as Lee Sin or Shaco. They can gank even at level 2, and you cannot sure where they are. It's hard when you have to counter gank Lee Sin, so if your teammates don't ward near their Red, use the 4th route:
Udyr now has lower manacost so you can start at Red and still counter gank effectively. Skill order: R. Don't level up anything at level 2, just sneak to the mid turret then wait about 20s.
If your enemy gank mid, learn E and fuck him with your insane DPS.
If he gank top, steal his blue.
If he doesn't show up, check your Blue buff. After clearing it, go back to mid turret because there is a high chance that he will come.
Since Udyr has weak CC and no dash, he usually cannot take Red buff then gank at level 2 like Lee Sin or Jarvan. Counter red is very risky because the enemy duo lane can show up immediately. So you just have one route:
It is mostly the 1st route from Blue team. Same skill order: R - W - E.
Difficult: 4/5 Many people think that Amumu is a easy candy for Udyr, because he is no match to you. Except it is not. In season 3, Amumu is very tanky, you cannot kill him in the jungle without be gangbanged by his teammate. At level 6 and so on, Amumu can easily Q then R your team, but you can do literally nothing. His hard CC is also hard counter to your move speed. Last but not least, Amumu is picked with some powerful mage such as Katarina or Karthus - and Udyr hate them. I usually have to ban Amumu. Counter:
Rush Bulwark. Buy a Philo first to get more gold.
Invade his 1st Blue buff. Amumu is very reliant on his first blue, and he has no dueling power, so a good invasion will deny him hard. Tell your support place a green ward at your Blue buff so he won't steal yours.
Steal his red, wraith, wolf to delay his level 6.
Outgank him. At level 3-4, your gank is far more powerful than him. Gank top many times so he has to come top, thus delay his farming streak.
Difficult: 3.5/5 Annoying opponent. He can gank everywhere, everytime. Invading is not a option because of his flag. I recommended just farm and try to counter gank.
Difficult: 2.5/5 Like Jarvan, his gank are very powerful. He also can steal your buff, so get your level 3 quickly. But he cannot win you 1vs1 directly. Try to counter gank, because Lee Sin is useless at later if unfed. Buy Sightstone to track him down.
Difficult: 2/5 The recent buff make him on par. His gank are deadly with 4 CC. But he is weak like a minion at 1vs1, so just counter jungle and fight him everytime you see him. An early invasion is even better.
On April 29 2013 08:21 VashTS wrote: "The next legendary skin is Spirit Guard Udyr (don't tell anyone from Garena Vietnam or they will fire my friend)."
^^Is that legit?
Well, since Riot will announce about it on 5/17 or so, I don't have to worry much.
Yeah, uh, Tiger Udyr is kinda herpaderpa now. It can be good if you have crazy farm or are in a 6-item situation, but other than that it's too hard balancing AD/ArPen with tankiness. Phoenix Udyr just needs one DPS item (Trinity or Bork or Zephyr) and can go straight tank and still do fine, because Phoenix has better base but crap scaling.
I've been playing around with top lane Udyr. Phoenix Udyr is one of my new favorite top laners, he's incredibly resilient and has a lot of pushing power. He's pretty gankable tho, I'm still working on how to deal with getting ganked over and over.
On May 15 2013 19:15 HughMyron wrote: Yeah, uh, Tiger Udyr is kinda herpaderpa now. It can be good if you have crazy farm or are in a 6-item situation, but other than that it's too hard balancing AD/ArPen with tankiness. Phoenix Udyr just needs one DPS item (Trinity or Bork or Zephyr) and can go straight tank and still do fine, because Phoenix has better base but crap scaling.
I've been playing around with top lane Udyr. Phoenix Udyr is one of my new favorite top laners, he's incredibly resilient and has a lot of pushing power. He's pretty gankable tho, I'm still working on how to deal with getting ganked over and over.
I wouldn't exactly say Phoenix Stance have a bad scaling, pulses adds up to a 125% ratio with every third attack procing an aoe of 45%. I've had a lot of fun with an Iceborn+Seraphs (charges up super fast), this not only does alot of damage due to the AP and Iceborn proc but also empowers his low cooldown shield (armor, cdr and shield boost is just a simply fabulous package) while even granting a massive shield active. - soloing baron is an easy and fast task with said items.
Don't know if it's viable in higher league, but it certainly is at mine - gold (rollercosting between 1 and 4 at the moment).
Personally I haven't had many issues with escaping ganks after switching my quints to movespeed, and depending on lane opponent CDR blues, which combined with early boots and bear stance (speed + stun). Maokai is a pain tho.
Tiger is generally a stronger teamfighting skill than Phoenix, especially after they changed it to give a passive bonus damage on autos. You take Phoenix in the jungle because it makes your clear much faster and the damage output/burst is rather even with Tiger. Tiger really shines in teamfights that last longer compared to ganks where you can really take advantage of the aspd boost and the new passive. It's also insane for tower pushing. Even with Tiger Udyr you only still only need 1~2 damage items; take your pick from BC, Bork, Triforce, and Gauntlet. The general idea is still the same tbh; get a few damage items, tank out and max cdr.
On May 16 2013 00:36 Metafour wrote: Hard counter to Udyr, Nasus. Playing this matchup hurts. You can be kited really hard with wither even with boots of swiftness.
not that bad you out sustain nasus in trade wars in fights with stun vs wither and withering you for whatever 30% less effective slow and lasting only 3 seconds or something instead of a full duration full effect slow on an ad carrry is quite the trade off
I believe we might be underestimating an item like Atma´s now that turtle can crit. Yes it has had bad rep since its nerf and the change to Warmog´s, but it now builds out of the Averice blade and it´s still quite cost effective, especially for Udyr who gets free attack speed and high base HP (a combination not that easy to find). I believe it has untapped potential for Udyr.
After some thinking, this is how I would go about building this Udyr (let´s consider for solo que a more carry-from-the-jungle approach instead of the defense-support build we are used to seeing):
Masteries: 9/21/0 (armor pen, improved ghost, HP and tenacity) Summoners: Ghost+Smite Runes: Standard jungling runes with move speed quints Core item build (not in particular order): - Spirit of the Ancient Golem - Twin Shadows - Mallet - Atma´s
Good points of the build: - Not particularly expensive at 9300 gold, can be attained in a decent % of games. - Ties all the knots for a bruiser build (Around 3700 HP, 140 armor, 120 resist, 200 damage -with 56 damage from Atma´s). 3900+ HP, 59 damage from Atma´s with red elixir. - Twin Shadows replaces boots for increased versatility, fills the need for some magic resist, and enables reaching up to targets to disable them with Phage/Mallet´s slow (along with ghost). - Hard peeling potential (does not only peel but also hurt). - Intense damage, both in burst (from tiger and switching to phoenix) and continuous; forces enemy team to deal with you. - With the AP, you can leave Phoenix at third rank early (still decent damage/clearing speed), and start leveling Tiger a bit, which complements Phage better later on. - The build order seems versatile. You can rush Lucky Pick and Avarice Blade for the gold, or rush Phage, or the more standard Spirit of Ancient Golem first, or rush Twin Shadows for the chasing potential and required early move speed.
Potential weaknesses: - A bit light on cooldown reduction, an important stat for Udyr (I would probably go for Frozen Heart afterwards, unless there´s a fed caster). - Standard boots 1 might still be required unless you rush Twin Shadows, which helps little when diving. - Damage inflicted is a bit binary: there´s an obvious increase when you get Atma´s, but until then your typical bruiser with early Brutalizer probably hits harder
On May 16 2013 00:36 Metafour wrote: Hard counter to Udyr, Nasus. Playing this matchup hurts. You can be kited really hard with wither even with boots of swiftness.
not that bad you out sustain nasus in trade wars in fights with stun vs wither and withering you for whatever 30% less effective slow and lasting only 3 seconds or something instead of a full duration full effect slow on an ad carrry is quite the trade off
I agree that you can probably trade better then he can in fights, but if your playing a good nasus and your gropued he will likely wither you alot. I guess it also depends.
On May 16 2013 00:36 Metafour wrote: Hard counter to Udyr, Nasus. Playing this matchup hurts. You can be kited really hard with wither even with boots of swiftness.
not that bad you out sustain nasus in trade wars in fights with stun vs wither and withering you for whatever 30% less effective slow and lasting only 3 seconds or something instead of a full duration full effect slow on an ad carrry is quite the trade off
I agree that you can probably trade better then he can in fights, but if your playing a good nasus and your gropued he will likely wither you alot. I guess it also depends.
If Nasus is withering you in teamfights then, to be perfectly honest, he's wasting a wither that should be going on your ADC. Don't get me wrong, being withered as Udyr sucks, but your main job in teamfights is to get as many stuns off and soak up as much damage with your shield as possible, and wither doesn't stop either of those things from happening.
This phoenix proc change on Udyr is absolutely retarded. Before the change, you were rewarded for good orbwalking but now you can simply accomplish the same feat by activating with R and then mashing your keyboard. Good job Riot. You've managed to make an easy champ even more braindeadly easy.
On June 11 2013 16:41 AsianEcksDragon wrote: This phoenix proc change on Udyr is absolutely retarded. Before the change, you were rewarded for good orbwalking but now you can simply accomplish the same feat by activating with R and then mashing your keyboard. Good job Riot. You've managed to make an easy champ even more braindeadly easy.
I don't know about him being easy, but since he's pretty bad due to atrocious scaling and not that impressive earlygame, I don't know if that concern, should it arise, is justified.
orbwalking was relevant because you wanted to stay in range to keep your aoe damage nad to hit the third auto to proc the extra 200 damage orbwalking is still relevant because you want to stay in range to keep your aoe damage and to hit the 4th auto hit or your next R cd whichever comes first
Play Wukong and you'll understand that orb-walking as in "animation cancelling" definitely exists in LoL. Udyr has a pretty good auto animation though.
Only Orb walking isn't animation cancelling originally. Its never getting an attack animation in the first place because you don't actually attack but cast a 0 cd spell instead that has low or no animation time that requires you to stand stilll continuously. Theres like 7 heroes in DotA that can orbwalk after a certain lvl: Destroyer, Clinkz, Drowranger, Silencer, Huskar, Enchantress and Viper (might be forgetting some and might be there are more now compared to when I actively played DotA).
I mean maybe the term has lost its original meaning and moved on to applying to any form of animation cancelling but originally it had a more specific meaning.
nobody cares about the original meaning its just a word adopted so that people roughly know what you're talking about without explaining it kinda like calling people gay over the internet doesnt mean you're a homophobe except in forum arguments in which one person wants to take the moral highground
What do you get if you're absolutely stomping? I've had a few games lately where I've gotten very fed so i just built more tanky; is that a better solution to dealing more damage? If you do want to do damage, what is it you want? Mallet, etc?
On June 12 2013 08:36 Arisen wrote: What do you get if you're absolutely stomping? I've had a few games lately where I've gotten very fed so i just built more tanky; is that a better solution to dealing more damage? If you do want to do damage, what is it you want? Mallet, etc?
I usually build Wit's since it lets you duel everyone, but no one here seems to like that item anymore. I'm also Silver, so, take my advice with a grain of salt.
I think Trinity is the generally agreed upon offensive option for Udyr.
On June 12 2013 08:36 Arisen wrote: What do you get if you're absolutely stomping? I've had a few games lately where I've gotten very fed so i just built more tanky; is that a better solution to dealing more damage? If you do want to do damage, what is it you want? Mallet, etc?
I usually build Wit's since it lets you duel everyone, but no one here seems to like that item anymore. I'm also Silver, so, take my advice with a grain of salt.
I think Trinity is the generally agreed upon offensive option for Udyr.
Yeah i usually almost always get wits. If i'm getting uber fed and the other team is failing hard i've gone almost everything trolly tbh. Iedge stuff like that(only in trolly games tho).
Usually Boots 2/Bulwark/Wits/Randuins is my core tho. anything after that pretty situational
Depends on what role you need to fill in your team and what champs you are facing. Also how other lanes are going etc. Do you only need to peel an assassin from your ADC or do you need to disrupt their entire team and push out their adc. Are lanes going to break down soon because you are to fed or can you farm up more before the big teamfights/standoffs over towers happen. Generally if you are just peeling an assassin, can expect there to be skirmishes between a lesser number of people before team fights truly break out or aren't just fed but also not facing any fed people its fine to go with more damage/chasing/duelling power. But if you are going to have to initiate fights with bear, or are facing a fed ADC/etc or just generally up agains't a team that kites well you probably just want to go tanky right away (unless it means your team has no threat at all then). And yeah ofc, aura items are always a great way to share some of the feed you got with your team, i.e. bulwark, locket etc. Also consider warding more for your team so the mid or top can save on a couple of those.
New wit's feels really nice on phoenix jungle udyr. I rushed wit's after machette in a few games just so I could farm really hard when I don't see any gank. Also iceborn gauntlet on udyr Is super fun.
`just get new madreds and spirit stone and you fucking melt down camps so fast you don't need to rush wits end at all new jungle is a significant buff to udyr wits end iteslf isn't all that much better
On June 14 2013 22:11 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: but why would you get madred's after spirit stone when you can get just get wits end to farm fast AND kill fools.
And yeah the changes to jungle really help a lot. Shyvanna too. Love having twice the other junglers farm by 20min.
because madreds costs 700 and wits end costs 2400 by that argument why not get trinity force instead of wits end when you can chase fools AND kill fools for 700 gold you will get like 12% attack speed or something and almost a null magic while madreds gives you a free over 2k gold worth of attack damage for farming minions and you only need to make 200 gold to make it worthwhile (and it sells for nearly 500 too so you can sell it whenever you want once you dont need it to farm fast)
I know that there is a huge price difference. My point was when you already have a spirit stone it feels wasteful to spend another 700 gold for an item that doesn't give you too much fighting stats except the armor just to increase your clear speed. Instead you could use that 700 gold to get that wit's end quicker which does both and is a core item on udyr anyways.
Edit: I read your post again and I concede that madred's sells back for 500. But then you have to go tanky after you get madred's and spirit stone, you cant get that wits anymore or you'll be too squishy. That doesn't seem too preferable since wit's after stone seems to give me huge increase damage output and I can get it early enough that I can still survive a decent amount of punishment with W and whatever resists I have.
Anyways I'll try out getting madred and see how I like that.
lol an item that only gives clearing speed and armour doesn't give too much fighting stats except the only fighting stat it gives? wits end doesn't give too much fighting stats except for the attack speed and the magic resist and the bonus damage on hit so why bother getting it at all
also, you can sell madreds for 500, buy why? why are youignoring the 25 armour it gives, armour is probably the singe best stat for udyr in the game. The only reason to sell it is to free up slots for something else. The 200 other gold is supposed to be more than made up in farming faster and thus more gold/xp and more opportunities to gank
also I have no idea how you can say shit like, oh if you spend 700 gold, and then clear faster make more gold and then sell it for 500 suddenly you're too squishy to buy wits end, but if you farm slower and be squisier for the whole game you can buy wits end and be a beast?
it seems like your brain is completely ignoring every logical factor except for the thing that justifies your original idea I can see what you're trying to say is something like this -Wits end is a very good item -Buying attack speed helps you clear and finished wits clears even faster -Buying madreds means you buy wits end slower and it helps you clear faster but so does attack speed
However you are completely ignoring the magnitude of this. You can't claim they are equal you are completely ignoring the numberical values or everything its like a philosopher trying to solve a mathematical problem its pretty crazy
On June 15 2013 00:02 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: I see your point. I'll try getting madred's and see if I like getting it first rather than just rushing wits.
Idk i'd never get Madreds(we are talking madreds not also getting wriggles right?) but i'd never straight up rush Wits unless i was obnoxiously fed at the same time
Tiger jungle is actually good, but risky. It's more powerful in the early(due to the increased dragon/buff control)/late(due to the insane scaling it has) game than Phoenix but the items Tiger needs(AD, mainly) are not readily available in jungle tank variants. While, yes, pure tank Udyr works well, I feel that his potential is wasted without an attack speed(or attack damage, for Tiger) item and a sheen item due to Udyr's high durability and movement speed. For the sheen item, Iceborne Gauntlet, while good, isn't as good as it is on other champions due to the low cooldown of Udyr's stun. The only situation I would buy Iceborne Gauntlet on Udyr is when I desperately need to peel both dive buddies of my ADC. Another thing to consider is Boots of Swiftness. It is EXTREMELY good on Udyr because it solves most of his kiting problems. That, of course, leaves him with no tenacity item, a slot that can be filled with either Spirit of the Ancient Golem(even on Tiger Udyr that already has Wriggle's) or Zephyr(once again, even on Tiger Udyr). I'm surprised to see no mention of Nashor's Tooth or Statik Shiv anywhere. Both items are core for a splitpush Phoenix Udyr build. Cooldown reduction, while good, isn't a must-have. Udyr shouldn't expressly build cooldown reduction in certain cases(burst/assassination-heavy opposition mainly), but should be focusing on building either utility, aura or damage items.
I still feel like tiger udyr is generally worse than other champs like xin or something, before the magic damage made the damage worthwhile but with all the armour stack everywhere im not sure its worth it, but it depends on how much farm you lose from going tiger.
I think wits > nashors strictly on udyr unless you are going some weird ap build. Shiv would prbobably be better on tiger since udyr doesn't really use the crit that well so I'm not sure its better than just trinity force or something.
I think swiftness is nice but sometimes tabi is better, since surviving longer can be just as good as running faster and often better (worse against kiting aps though).
i think pheonix is best with trinity/wits+tank but you need to be so fed for that you usually get wits even if you farm a lot and have to go all tank after that. I also never find iceborn to be any use at all on him, but in theory it should be good since you stun them into the middle of a slowing field, so maybe i should test more.
Tiger Udyr's single target damage is higher therefore his ganking and objective control is far superior, especially with the new Madred's and champions like Xin and Jarvan don't offer the utility and survivability Udyr does in prolonged fights. Nashor's/Shiv is strictly is a splitpush Phoenix build and Wit's is far inferior to Nashor's in this case. Shiv is better on Tiger, yes, but Tiger excels at single-target which is not the point of Shiv. Swiftness is better than Tabi in most cases since getting to, say, the enemy ADC and stunning him helps both Udyr and his team survive longer. The only case where I've come to the conclusion that Tabi is better than Swiftness is when the enemy team has two heavy auto-attackers. Iceborn and Bear Stance overlap their CC's and while the target is stunned Udyr gets at least 2 auto-attacks in(excluding Bear, so 3 total) which offer a very high chance of Phage/Trinity slow proccing.
tiger udyrs damage isnt really higher, maybe on paper is it but realistically most people haave way less mr than armour and you also dont get to use most of the attack speed since you have to chase after people all the time, the r burst and aoe works while chasing. objective control is largely irrelevant, udyr can clear a buff in like 5-6 seconds regardless, with smite, tiger might shave a second off that but it doesnt matter.
xin and jarvan offer far more utility, surviability depends on the length of the fight. in long fights you expect udyr to outperform based on turtle stance spamming
getting to the ad and stunning him and losing half your hp is nearly always a terrible trade, having tabi won't help that much but if you are going to go in hard you'll be in better shape to finish off teh kill, swiftness is better for ganking but its not a matter of if youcan catch shit with the extra 15 ms its a matter of when, and the ninja tabi is such a high surviability boost they have to have a lot of slows for swiftness to be worth it.
getting nashors to split push with pheonix stance is retarded, pheonix stance can insta push a wave without any items, and a wits end would make the most sense since you probably want it anyway shiv is similarly retarded
Yeah seems like people are throwing around some pretty bizarre items. Here's my $0.02. For phoenix I build straight tank, no damage items as you just don't need them. Elder Golem, Bulwark, Frozen Heart would be my core, randuins after this probably. My tiger build I rush Elder Lizard, I find that gives plenty of early and mid-game gank/kill potential, then its generally Bulwark and Frozen Heart again. For tiger it seems appropriate to grab a second damage item provided you have enough survivability or are way ahead. I was thinking botrk, but should probably try wits end. Would be interested in thoughts on this.
For me phoenix give faster jungle clear early, strong early ganks, but tail off sooner than tiger. Tigers jungle clear is slower, but early ganks are marginally stronger, and I feel like he maintains power longer into the mid/late game before tailing off. Late game the role ends up being basically the same, but Tiger should better kill power on an isolated adc/squishy.
On June 16 2013 11:15 harve wrote: Yeah seems like people are throwing around some pretty bizarre items. Here's my $0.02. For phoenix I build straight tank, no damage items as you just don't need them. Elder Golem, Bulwark, Frozen Heart would be my core, randuins after this probably. My tiger build I rush Elder Lizard, I find that gives plenty of early and mid-game gank/kill potential, then its generally Bulwark and Frozen Heart again. For tiger it seems appropriate to grab a second damage item provided you have enough survivability or are way ahead. I was thinking botrk, but should probably try wits end. Would be interested in thoughts on this.
For me phoenix give faster jungle clear early, strong early ganks, but tail off sooner than tiger. Tigers jungle clear is slower, but early ganks are marginally stronger, and I feel like he maintains power longer into the mid/late game before tailing off. Late game the role ends up being basically the same, but Tiger should better kill power on an isolated adc/squishy.
I like straight tank on Phoenix but i ALWAYS throw in wits end, the attack speed + mr + stacking mr is just super nice imo.
For Phoenix my core is usually, Wits + Bulwark + Randuins Out of the prolly 200+ games I have with Udyr thats really my favorite core tbh. Frozen Heart/Visage other items situationally after your main build though. Try to snowball some kind of advantage and end early, later you just sorta peel for your adc, or go ham if you got sufficient peel for him.
Had an Udyr go Spirit stone > boots of swiftness > SotEL > Zephyr > tanky.
My god you could not catch that fuck and he'd just come flying out of bushes everywhere. I was shaco and we were both counter jungling the hell out of each other but man, once he got that Zephyr he was freaking everywhere. It probably only worked so well because he got like 2 kills and a couple assists by mid game but man it was pretty insane.
I tried the Diamondprox build last night (running ADC runes, i.e. 4% lifesteal and rest AD). I picked him because the other team had 2 melee duelists (j4 jungle and top lane lee) and the rest of their team mostly lacked cc/slows/escapes that make udyr cry. The build is an absolute BEAST, as in absolutely no melee can possibly fight you. I shoved their jungle out early in a 2v2 (taking no damage in the process) and tower dived a half hp lee at level 3, once again at 5, and spent the rest of the game in their jungle or pushing objectives.
I haven't played Udyr since s2 but I do miss the AS, MS, and clearspeed that the old 0/21/9 phoenix had. I also haven't played him since phoenix changes to see his front loaded burst, but the tiger burst is utterly ridiculous. I would never pick Udyr early though (unlike s2), and make sure they commit to some melee and not some ridiculous kite/disengage team with stuff like ashe/janna/lulu/kennen/ryze/jayce before picking him.
And please for the love of god do not run ghost on Udyr. I have no idea why so many Udyrs I see use ghost, but having flash->bear is very, very important.
On July 09 2013 01:09 Sandster wrote: I tried the Diamondprox build last night (running ADC runes, i.e. 4% lifesteal and rest AD). I picked him because the other team had 2 melee duelists (j4 jungle and top lane lee) and the rest of their team mostly lacked cc/slows/escapes that make udyr cry. The build is an absolute BEAST, as in absolutely no melee can possibly fight you. I shoved their jungle out early in a 2v2 (taking no damage in the process) and tower dived a half hp lee at level 3, once again at 5, and spent the rest of the game in their jungle or pushing objectives.
I haven't played Udyr since s2 but I do miss the AS, MS, and clearspeed that the old 0/21/9 phoenix had. I also haven't played him since phoenix changes to see his front loaded burst, but the tiger burst is utterly ridiculous. I would never pick Udyr early though (unlike s2), and make sure they commit to some melee and not some ridiculous kite/disengage team with stuff like ashe/janna/lulu/kennen/ryze/jayce before picking him.
And please for the love of god do not run ghost on Udyr. I have no idea why so many Udyrs I see use ghost, but having flash->bear is very, very important.
Gave it a try myself, vs another Udyr in normals(just so i could auto lock obv) the burst and damage on tiger is kinda obnoxious, nothing more satisfying than hitting them and walking off as they die to the Tiger DoT
I usually go madred's instead of spirit stone vs 3 or 4 ad teams, you can use the extra gold from not finishing a spirit item to get that locket earlier, and just stack that armor. with locket and bulwark you're incredibly tanky even without any selfish tank items. For normal phoenix udyr.
On July 09 2013 01:45 Vanka wrote: I usually go madred's instead of spirit stone vs 3 or 4 ad teams, you can use the extra gold from not finishing a spirit item to get that locket earlier, and just stack that armor. with locket and bulwark you're incredibly tanky even without any selfish tank items. For normal phoenix udyr.
If you're playing phoenix why ever get madreds? the 20% increased damage on AOE is alot more useful than like 60 magic damage on hit, even with the 25 armor imo.
It's not like its set in stone you have to finish a spirit item in the first place(hell i almost never do)
Yeah I'm not really sold on madreds on pheonix. Even against a 4 ad team I'd rather just rush tabi then get spirit golem. You can't really skip on getting a tenacity item with Udyr most of the time.
can get both though, madreds is a pretty decent investment since its both defensive and clearing speed, while normally the problem is it only is good against physical damage. There are no overwhelmingly cost efficient armour only items that make madreds important to skip in that case.
madreds tabi ancient golem locket is like checkmate for that kind of comp.
On July 09 2013 06:49 Slayer91 wrote: can get both though, madreds is a pretty decent investment since its both defensive and clearing speed, while normally the problem is it only is good against physical damage. There are no overwhelmingly cost efficient armour only items that make madreds important to skip in that case.
madreds tabi ancient golem locket is like checkmate for that kind of comp.
Idk maybe on tiger the extra damage on hit would be okay but im not sold on it at all for phoenix in the slightest., for 20 gold more you could just get a Chainvest which builds into something useful(frozen heart, fist, hell even thornmail) instead of being a dead end item like madreds
On July 09 2013 06:49 Slayer91 wrote: can get both though, madreds is a pretty decent investment since its both defensive and clearing speed, while normally the problem is it only is good against physical damage. There are no overwhelmingly cost efficient armour only items that make madreds important to skip in that case.
madreds tabi ancient golem locket is like checkmate for that kind of comp.
Idk maybe on tiger the extra damage on hit would be okay but im not sold on it at all for phoenix in the slightest., for 20 gold more you could just get a Chainvest which builds into something useful(frozen heart, fist, hell even thornmail) instead of being a dead end item like madreds
Dead end? In how many ranked games does that matter? Like 1 out of 50?
So what's the consensus? Are Razors actually worth getting? The new passive on it seems to be a lot more valuable on udyr than previously and Lantern Udyr is historically strong as the only offensive item, but for that same price you could have Spirit of the Ancient Golem or lulzy Spirit of the Elder Lizard.
I tend to get madreds & spirit stones when playing phoenix, selling madreds mid-late game, but Udyr is my go-to jungle farmer. Obviously if u don't focus on farming, there's no point in madreds imho.
I also get a point or two in tiger early on, obviously for farm purpose, it can be mana hungry but it brings a lot in terms of bursts both to gank and to counter jungle.
What I'm unsure about is how to prepare for late game. I feel Udyr can play either a split pushing role, a stun bot role or a diving bruiser role. For each role, what would be the pivotal item ?
stun bot is just a transition phase when a teamfight has "started" but tension is still in place, carries are still safe or whatever. You stun to allow favourable tank v tank trades as in you have your w and you stun someone so your team can hit skillshots while you dodge the other ones.
the only time you should run into a carry and just stun and run away is in a teamfight situation where they all turn to protect their carry so instead of going for the 1v1 or whatever you just run off and let your team focus whoever they were focusing while their damage all turns to you
you stun tanks when their carries havent really committed to the fight and are looking for an opportunity and if you stun the tanks then you buy time to for your squishies to get more damage on them.
once shit goes crazy you typically focus the targets in terms of how much damage they have (and how squishy they are, usually squishies = high damage so double whammy in that you kill em faster and they are bigger threats)
you shouldn't really split push except to get your farm because you're safe, in terms of 1v1ing you're strong but theres no way you can really dive anyone close to you in farm because you have no burst. you won't be able to take towers so its just another trasition phase for getting a certain item.
On July 09 2013 22:15 Slayer91 wrote: stun bot is just a transition phase when a teamfight has "started" but tension is still in place, carries are still safe or whatever. You stun to allow favourable tank v tank trades as in you have your w and you stun someone so your team can hit skillshots while you dodge the other ones.
the only time you should run into a carry and just stun and run away is in a teamfight situation where they all turn to protect their carry so instead of going for the 1v1 or whatever you just run off and let your team focus whoever they were focusing while their damage all turns to you
you stun tanks when their carries havent really committed to the fight and are looking for an opportunity and if you stun the tanks then you buy time to for your squishies to get more damage on them.
once shit goes crazy you typically focus the targets in terms of how much damage they have (and how squishy they are, usually squishies = high damage so double whammy in that you kill em faster and they are bigger threats)
you shouldn't really split push except to get your farm because you're safe, in terms of 1v1ing you're strong but theres no way you can really dive anyone close to you in farm because you have no burst. you won't be able to take towers so its just another trasition phase for getting a certain item.
So you're better off diving their adc then peeling for your own which i can understand cause you can take some punishment and you don't peel that good. Thanks
I thought udyr was decent at destroying towers with tiger. And in split pushing i was mostly pointing out the fact that you're a pain to kill in a 1V1 situation cause you can flee like a boss (though u won't kill them either which is not ideal of course).
thats not the be all end all at the end of the day you have to play with your team. If your team is ranged heavy you have to play the kiting game and if you have a lot of melees or assassins you want to play the dive role more.
rule of thumb is that if you have lots ranged you stun their tanks and if you have lots of melee you dive the other guys. If you have a mix you just play the ranged role until an oppoortunity presents to run in with whichever other melee thats on your team. (coordinated dives are improtant so you just dont get focused down straight away)
do people build maw on tiger udyr? with all the AS from monkey's agility and tiger stance i'm not sure why would spend money on anything but AD for an offensive item.
with maw you get more EHP vs magic damage than wit's end without having to stack autos, and if you're running around at sub 50% hp, which udyr does more safely than most, you're getting ie/bt levels of AD from it.
also hexdrinker seems like it's only challenged by bilgewater for the amount of impact you get from a sub 1500g, easy to build part of a big offensive item.
because you dont get to right click and damage people all you want want on udyr. You need chasing items and defensive items so buying maw is typically a terrible idea, though hexdrinker is good. Wits end is better than maw because it gives more DPS, wits+hexdrinker is a good combo against really heavy aps
there are 2 main damage items you want to consider, trinity and botrk, hex and wits are a consideration because all the mr items suck anyway and its more damage, but they shouldn't be your mainstay item unless you are behind and you want to go mostly tank
also attack speed doesnt make AD specifically a good stat, since you dont staack crit, on hit tends to more efficient. There are AD ratios on tiger stance and you don't want to ignore them because they are good for burst but not for DPS.
I'm kinda mixed on whether AS is as important as AD on tiger because you already get +100% with passive+tiger. AS is good only if you can stick to somebody like glue for more than a couple seconds at a time(AD is much better in short engagements because of tiger) Obviously triforce is fucking amazing, but as an alternative I think hydra is actually viable on tiger. It gives waveclear, and absolutely sickening amounts of sustain and even some extra burst damage.
Obviously the damage items are all situational. Triforce is almost certainly the best allround, but worst for laning. Hydra is somewhere in the middle, and blade is the best for laning, and good in a teamfight as well.
hydra is just melee BT however its good for farming but that is be the only reason you should be buying it over pretty much any other option (wits, hex, trinity, botrk)
I've found zephyr is pretty ridonc. Bit of AD, enough AS you don't need to ever buy more, a ridiculous amount of MS in the current itemization, your mandatory tenacity and a little splash of CDR. Not the highest DPS, but affordable and has some great utility thrown in.
On July 18 2013 17:16 Thereisnosaurus wrote: I've found zephyr is pretty ridonc. Bit of AD, enough AS you don't need to ever buy more, a ridiculous amount of MS in the current itemization, your mandatory tenacity and a little splash of CDR. Not the highest DPS, but affordable and has some great utility thrown in.
Really? I think it's way too much gold spent for 0 tankiness stats. Yes, you get Tenacity, but you could just be getting that from ancient golem (most games) or merc treads (situational on jungle Udyr, less situational if lane udyr wants tenacity.)
Yeah, it's got a nice amount of MS but at it's 3k gold price point it's competing with Triforce and BORK which are much more damage, still giving movespeed (and Triforce also gives a slowproc), much more utility, and even give a bit of tankiness in their own way.
On a champion who is most likely only going to see 1 damage item in his build, Zephyr just isn't that much damage, and you can't really afford to combine it with other big damage items because then you just get crunched while you're running in to try and do damage.
On July 18 2013 17:16 Thereisnosaurus wrote: I've found zephyr is pretty ridonc. Bit of AD, enough AS you don't need to ever buy more, a ridiculous amount of MS in the current itemization, your mandatory tenacity and a little splash of CDR. Not the highest DPS, but affordable and has some great utility thrown in.
Really? I think it's way too much gold spent for 0 tankiness stats. Yes, you get Tenacity, but you could just be getting that from ancient golem (most games) or merc treads (situational on jungle Udyr, less situational if lane udyr wants tenacity.)
Yeah, it's got a nice amount of MS but at it's 3k gold price point it's competing with Triforce and BORK which are much more damage, still giving movespeed (and Triforce also gives a slowproc), much more utility, and even give a bit of tankiness in their own way.
On a champion who is most likely only going to see 1 damage item in his build, Zephyr just isn't that much damage, and you can't really afford to combine it with other big damage items because then you just get crunched while you're running in to try and do damage.
Much rather have Wits End tbh, esp if im playing phoenix.
I want to learn tyger udyr, but I can't find any good guides. All featured and approved guides for udyr on Solomid are for phoenix jungle, and I don't really trust mobafire guides to guide me correctly. I've tried a few games with a setup similar to what I would use on someone like riven (21/9/0), with AD marks, AD quints, armor yellows, and MR/Lvl blues. Ghost ignite
Some problems I'm running into... Don't know how to use turtle lifesteal most effectively in lane Chewing though mana pretty fast trying to keep passive stacked to 3 or spamming turtle to deal with harass Big troubles vs harass from ranged champions. Just can't deal with the constant autos withotu having to absolutely spam turtle shield and run out of mana very quickly.
On July 20 2013 03:51 Arisen wrote: I want to learn tyger udyr, but I can't find any good guides. All featured and approved guides for udyr on Solomid are for phoenix jungle, and I don't really trust mobafire guides to guide me correctly. I've tried a few games with a setup similar to what I would use on someone like riven (21/9/0), with AD marks, AD quints, armor yellows, and MR/Lvl blues. Ghost ignite
Some problems I'm running into... Don't know how to use turtle lifesteal most effectively in lane Chewing though mana pretty fast trying to keep passive stacked to 3 or spamming turtle to deal with harass Big troubles vs harass from ranged champions. Just can't deal with the constant autos withotu having to absolutely spam turtle shield and run out of mana very quickly.
You should just use tiger to hit and back off, or use it to lvl 1 cheese, load tiger right click tiger right click ignite + auto attack spam to all in and kill them at 1.
In lane with the removal of mana return on turtle you cant try to keep stacks to 3 until youve got alot of levels in your skills since you eat mana so quickly now, until you can all in and kill them you should just poke farm poke farm etc.
Eventually though youre going to get to a point where even if you cant kill them they literally wont be able to do anything to you and you can just farm the entire time, sit in the middle of the wave with turtle on and ust farm till you get a buncha items and rape their entire team.
On July 20 2013 03:51 Arisen wrote: I want to learn tyger udyr, but I can't find any good guides. All featured and approved guides for udyr on Solomid are for phoenix jungle, and I don't really trust mobafire guides to guide me correctly. I've tried a few games with a setup similar to what I would use on someone like riven (21/9/0), with AD marks, AD quints, armor yellows, and MR/Lvl blues. Ghost ignite
Some problems I'm running into... Don't know how to use turtle lifesteal most effectively in lane Chewing though mana pretty fast trying to keep passive stacked to 3 or spamming turtle to deal with harass Big troubles vs harass from ranged champions. Just can't deal with the constant autos withotu having to absolutely spam turtle shield and run out of mana very quickly.
It's actually pretty good to get a tear on lane udyr and if you do that you wont have mana problems and just laugh at harass. Getting a couple levels into turtle before maxing out tiger can help too
For Items I'd recommend either Botrk Triforce or Zephyr as the primary damage item. Of course you'd need mostly defensive items after that so either Sunfire or randuins or maybe a frozen heart. For MR there's Wits end and Spirit visage and if they got lots of burst you could get a hexdrinker
On July 20 2013 03:51 Arisen wrote: I want to learn tyger udyr, but I can't find any good guides. All featured and approved guides for udyr on Solomid are for phoenix jungle, and I don't really trust mobafire guides to guide me correctly. I've tried a few games with a setup similar to what I would use on someone like riven (21/9/0), with AD marks, AD quints, armor yellows, and MR/Lvl blues. Ghost ignite
Some problems I'm running into... Don't know how to use turtle lifesteal most effectively in lane Chewing though mana pretty fast trying to keep passive stacked to 3 or spamming turtle to deal with harass Big troubles vs harass from ranged champions. Just can't deal with the constant autos withotu having to absolutely spam turtle shield and run out of mana very quickly.
It's actually pretty good to get a tear on lane udyr and if you do that you wont have mana problems and just laugh at harass. Getting a couple levels into turtle before maxing out tiger can help too
For Items I'd recommend either Botrk Triforce or Zephyr as the primary damage item. Of course you'd need mostly defensive items after that so either Sunfire or randuins or maybe a frozen heart. For MR there's Wits end and Spirit visage and if they got lots of burst you could get a hexdrinker
Tear is a lategame solution to an early game problem. Don't do it. Buy a mana pot every time you base if you have to, but spending 100g in consumables for mana vs. 700g to solve a problem that doesn't exist later on in the game should be a no brainer.
What items do you build? i have been going weird shit that I would build on an ad assassin since i don't know how to build. I go straight brutalizer if i'm doing good or vamp if i'm struggling with their harass into probably an early cutlass or last whisper. My final build looks something like this...
Boots BotrK LW Black Cleaver Blood thirster Situational last item
It just doesn't feel good a lot of the time, and I think that my items need to be switched up.
On July 20 2013 17:23 Arisen wrote: What items do you build? i have been going weird shit that I would build on an ad assassin since i don't know how to build. I go straight brutalizer if i'm doing good or vamp if i'm struggling with their harass into probably an early cutlass or last whisper. My final build looks something like this...
Boots BotrK LW Black Cleaver Blood thirster Situational last item
It just doesn't feel good a lot of the time, and I think that my items need to be switched up.
Way. Too. Little. Defense.
Granted you're probably playing at a very low level, but even then.
General build for tiger udyr(laning) is one damage item for laning(triforce, botrk, hydra) with a dblade ->randuin's+1 more defensive item>maybe one more offensive item>more tank.
Total count.
Offensive 1-2, defensive 3-4, boots(swifties, tabi's, mercs all situational)
so i've been massing udyr since SGU came out and here are my findings
you will automatically average 8 kills per game if you use the skin. exactly 8 kills, every game.
AD/AD/arm/cdr or AD/AD/arm/arm in the jungle, 9/21/0 but i could see 21/9/0 working too tiger max, point in turtle and bear early, then assess your needs as you go need to be a frontliner? -> turtle max tough guys to chase? -> bear max need to carry? -> phoenix max
i've opened with machete + 5, cloth + 5, and d-blade all to relative success in the jungle. my first item has typically been phage -> kindlegem -> triforce (sheen first if you have to do it piece by piece) -> tabi -> ancient golem -> defensive items OR madred's bloodrazer. just kidding that item isn't in the game any more. for a second offensive item i get botrk.
i really want to phase ancient golem out of my build, because i want to start d-blade every game, but the item is so damn good. fuuuu.
teamfights are simple, you E straight into their team. if they play chicken and try to back off or kite, you just press W and back off. rinse and repeat until you're out of mana and you lose the fight and your team blames you. if they engage on your E, you have a half-second to decide if you want to dive their carry or peel for yours. 90% of the time i peel for mine, but if it's a carry that is very weak to udyr (kog, ashe before her big AS item, draven, twitch, ie the carries that don't have dashes or blinks) then just pounce on them with tiger/bear dance.
one thing that's really important is knowing your chase potential/limits as udyr. in a teamfight, the SECOND that someone is out of your potential kill range, just switch immediately to someone else. chasing a 10% hp MARKSMAN across the map while they kite you with red buff instead of just switching to their tanks is the saddest thing ever. you're unduelable as udyr. if you switch to a tank the tank has to run, it's that simple.
items i've tried on him and their effectiveness, and items that i don't need to try to know their effectiveness is limited, but i still see other players build them on udyr: triforce: core, imo. it's got everything udyr wants. tiamat/hydra: sadly, skip it. pretty worthless on this guy. it hurts me to say that iceborn: grab it against 3 AD or a kitey marksman. botrk: grab it when fed, always. active turns you into some sort of monster and you will literally 2-shot people with tiger botrk. visage/locket: great builds out of kindlegem because cdr is such a good stat. probably only need 1 tho with golem zephyr: 100% skip. i feel like i didn't even need to say that but i see other udyrs build it. hexdrinker: skip in the jungle, situational top lane. more shields can't hurt against some champs like vlad black cleaver: skip it 100% stattik shiv: pull a balls/lemonnation and joke about suicide if you actually build this item on udyr. frozen mallet: situational, when the situation is that you want triforce NOW but are exactly 540g short, and the enemy doesn't have any champs with %-hp damage. bruta: really good on him, but hard to fit into a build, imo. build into ghostblade if you get it
On July 21 2013 10:25 gtrsrs wrote: so i've been massing udyr since SGU came out and here are my findings
you will automatically average 8 kills per game if you use the skin. exactly 8 kills, every game.
AD/AD/arm/cdr or AD/AD/arm/arm in the jungle, 9/21/0 but i could see 21/9/0 working too tiger max, point in turtle and bear early, then assess your needs as you go need to be a frontliner? -> turtle max tough guys to chase? -> bear max need to carry? -> phoenix max
i've opened with machete + 5, cloth + 5, and d-blade all to relative success in the jungle. my first item has typically been phage -> kindlegem -> triforce (sheen first if you have to do it piece by piece) -> tabi -> ancient golem -> defensive items OR madred's bloodrazer. just kidding that item isn't in the game any more. for a second offensive item i get botrk.
i really want to phase ancient golem out of my build, because i want to start d-blade every game, but the item is so damn good. fuuuu.
teamfights are simple, you E straight into their team. if they play chicken and try to back off or kite, you just press W and back off. rinse and repeat until you're out of mana and you lose the fight and your team blames you. if they engage on your E, you have a half-second to decide if you want to dive their carry or peel for yours. 90% of the time i peel for mine, but if it's a carry that is very weak to udyr (kog, ashe before her big AS item, draven, twitch, ie the carries that don't have dashes or blinks) then just pounce on them with tiger/bear dance.
one thing that's really important is knowing your chase potential/limits as udyr. in a teamfight, the SECOND that someone is out of your potential kill range, just switch immediately to someone else. chasing a 10% hp MARKSMAN across the map while they kite you with red buff instead of just switching to their tanks is the saddest thing ever. you're unduelable as udyr. if you switch to a tank the tank has to run, it's that simple.
items i've tried on him and their effectiveness, and items that i don't need to try to know their effectiveness is limited, but i still see other players build them on udyr: triforce: core, imo. it's got everything udyr wants. tiamat/hydra: sadly, skip it. pretty worthless on this guy. it hurts me to say that iceborn: grab it against 3 AD or a kitey marksman. botrk: grab it when fed, always. active turns you into some sort of monster and you will literally 2-shot people with tiger botrk. visage/locket: great builds out of kindlegem because cdr is such a good stat. probably only need 1 tho with golem zephyr: 100% skip. i feel like i didn't even need to say that but i see other udyrs build it. hexdrinker: skip in the jungle, situational top lane. more shields can't hurt against some champs like vlad black cleaver: skip it 100% stattik shiv: pull a balls/lemonnation and joke about suicide if you actually build this item on udyr. frozen mallet: situational, when the situation is that you want triforce NOW but are exactly 540g short, and the enemy doesn't have any champs with %-hp damage. bruta: really good on him, but hard to fit into a build, imo. build into ghostblade if you get it
Uhh, you should be starting Dblade regardless, and getting Golem anyways. I don't get how youre ever going to get triforce out of the jungle unless youre getting obnoxiously fed which i guess is easy on Udyr but you cant really count on that every game.
If you try to E into their team you'll get endless kited and die, Udyr isnt an initiating champion unless you plan on flash bearing to start a fight(which is still an atrocious idea)
Realistically with a jungle budget you should be going Tiger : Dblade -> Golem -> Aegis/locket whatever(obv going to change next patch) Phoenix -> Machete -> usually i'll get aegis, or kindlegem or something, if im doing well get wits end, if not finish aegis/golem thing. Randuins is always a pretty good choice too.
I'd absolutely never rush triforce, Mallet should never even be an option imo, Tiamat isnt totally awful, if youre fed and playing Tiger then yeah get bork, otherwise wits for Phoenix.
Phoenix runes should really always be AS/MS/Ar/Mr-L Tiger was uhh, something like AD/1LS+2AD/Ar/Mr-L or something, starting with dblade
guitar, have you tried out Diamondprox's Tigerdyr build? I mean 9/21/0 is just the standard/default tanky jungler masteries, there's really nothing wrong with it but Diamond's 14/3/13 is mind-boggling efficient. Not sure why you would ever suggest 21/9/0.
Trinity is nice as the sole offensive option but I wouldn't rush the item. Wit's for Phoenix is good. I have mixed feelings about BotRK in general on Udyr.
Tigerdyr, straight up Q > E > W > R. Point in W at level 2.
im a big fan of trinity force if you can afford it, in situations that you want mobility more than straight up dps. (wits end good for dps). When you're underfed you cant afford it obviously, you just get full tank. However without any damage itesm you are basiaclly kinda useless lategame but its okay if your team has damage because you can get away with sub par cc then
On July 25 2013 05:47 NeoIllusions wrote: I agree with arb.
guitar, have you tried out Diamondprox's Tigerdyr build? I mean 9/21/0 is just the standard/default tanky jungler masteries, there's really nothing wrong with it but Diamond's 14/3/13 is mind-boggling efficient. Not sure why you would ever suggest 21/9/0.
Trinity is nice as the sole offensive option but I wouldn't rush the item. Wit's for Phoenix is good. I have mixed feelings about BotRK in general on Udyr.
Tigerdyr, straight up Q > E > W > R. Point in W at level 2.
This is what I do the Q does not have AoE but the attack speed really helps with everything.
On July 25 2013 07:15 ZataN wrote: Thoughts on statik shiv on udyr top?
Tried it last night, was playing vs akali. started dorans blade + Q, running 2 lifesteal quint, ad reds, 1 ad quint, flat mr/armour and 9/21/0.
pushed akali out of lane level 1/2 really easy, went hexdrinker first into tenacity boots, statik shiv then randuins.
seemed really strong, although I am like bronze level on oce lol
Don't like it, get a tiamat and a hydra if you want good waveclear + the shitload of AD really helps with extra Q damage, plus lets you push like a monster, and gives pretty good 1v1 capability(not many can 1v1 a farmed tigerdyr regarldess tho)
On July 25 2013 07:15 ZataN wrote: Thoughts on statik shiv on udyr top?
Tried it last night, was playing vs akali. started dorans blade + Q, running 2 lifesteal quint, ad reds, 1 ad quint, flat mr/armour and 9/21/0.
pushed akali out of lane level 1/2 really easy, went hexdrinker first into tenacity boots, statik shiv then randuins.
seemed really strong, although I am like bronze level on oce lol
Don't like it, get a tiamat and a hydra if you want good waveclear + the shitload of AD really helps with extra Q damage, plus lets you push like a monster, and gives pretty good 1v1 capability(not many can 1v1 a farmed tigerdyr regarldess tho)
So im thinking Ravenous > Wits end > randuins with boots somewhere in there? would serve a similar pupose to my other build, assuming you need the MR
On July 25 2013 07:15 ZataN wrote: Thoughts on statik shiv on udyr top?
Tried it last night, was playing vs akali. started dorans blade + Q, running 2 lifesteal quint, ad reds, 1 ad quint, flat mr/armour and 9/21/0.
pushed akali out of lane level 1/2 really easy, went hexdrinker first into tenacity boots, statik shiv then randuins.
seemed really strong, although I am like bronze level on oce lol
Don't like it, get a tiamat and a hydra if you want good waveclear + the shitload of AD really helps with extra Q damage, plus lets you push like a monster, and gives pretty good 1v1 capability(not many can 1v1 a farmed tigerdyr regarldess tho)
So im thinking Ravenous > Wits end > randuins with boots somewhere in there? would serve a similar pupose to my other build, assuming you need the MR
Probably visage at first imo, CDR + MR +The heal thing = real gud
On July 25 2013 07:15 ZataN wrote: Thoughts on statik shiv on udyr top?
Tried it last night, was playing vs akali. started dorans blade + Q, running 2 lifesteal quint, ad reds, 1 ad quint, flat mr/armour and 9/21/0.
pushed akali out of lane level 1/2 really easy, went hexdrinker first into tenacity boots, statik shiv then randuins.
seemed really strong, although I am like bronze level on oce lol
Don't like it, get a tiamat and a hydra if you want good waveclear + the shitload of AD really helps with extra Q damage, plus lets you push like a monster, and gives pretty good 1v1 capability(not many can 1v1 a farmed tigerdyr regarldess tho)
So im thinking Ravenous > Wits end > randuins with boots somewhere in there? would serve a similar pupose to my other build, assuming you need the MR
Probably visage at first imo, CDR + MR +The heal thing = real gud
Wow ok I didn't think of that, I always built visage on aatrox sometime after BOTRK or ravenous, makes complete sense on udyr with turtle leech and ravenous leech.
Considering where the game is at right now, a 220 hp shield every 6 seconds just doesn't cut it anymore. I think tiger/bear or phoenix/bear max is probably right for jungling. I don't know if the items exist to keep udyr from being completely worthless late game at a competent level.
On July 25 2013 05:47 NeoIllusions wrote: I agree with arb.
guitar, have you tried out Diamondprox's Tigerdyr build? I mean 9/21/0 is just the standard/default tanky jungler masteries, there's really nothing wrong with it but Diamond's 14/3/13 is mind-boggling efficient. Not sure why you would ever suggest 21/9/0.
Trinity is nice as the sole offensive option but I wouldn't rush the item. Wit's for Phoenix is good. I have mixed feelings about BotRK in general on Udyr.
Tigerdyr, straight up Q > E > W > R. Point in W at level 2.
I was listening to saint's soloq stream the other night while playing a game, and some viewers started spamming that he should use the diamondprox build and he had a little discussion about why he doesn't like Tiger in general and how by building the way diamond builds, he's giving up a lot of the strengths that udyr brings to the table. Of course if you like to tiger jungle diamondprox's setup is probably the way to go, but It's a good listen. I can't find the VOD/timestamp right now, will edit if I do
On July 25 2013 11:11 Magus wrote: What are people's thoughts on the way Trick2G builds his Udyr?
Golem -> Sunfire -> Wit's
Tried it in one game, but I was on my smurf so that one doesn't count for much. Anyone else used the build?
I like Golem and Sunfire I usually go Thornmail though. The Wit's would be good with the Q with+40% attackspeed
I would think in any case where you would consider building Thorn; FH or Randuins would be better instead.
thornmail is a terrible item until you have the EHP and armor to back it up.
Basically you need randuin's + sunfire before thornmail even starts being a good option for preventing focus from ADC's.
I dont think unless playing Tiger where you need the AoE you should worry about sunfire at all.
I think Randuins in general is a much better item on Udyr tbh, since he's gonna be up eating shots the slows really useful, and if youre peeling like a beast the active is super good too.
So I've been trying tiger jungle a bit the past week and it doesn't feel good at all. I just copied diamondprox's set up and the jungle clearing speed is a lot slower (but this was to be expected) but honestly, his ganks don't feel significantly stronger enough to make up for the lack of clearing speed. It's obviously much stronger in early level duels against enemy junglers and laners in your jungle or while you're counterjungling, but the lack of camp clearing speed doesn't allow you to rapid clear both yours and your opponent's jungle, so the counterjungling feels more like Nunu's where you just eat their jungle and leave yours mostly for your laners. It's also better for rapid 2v1 tower pushing but it's not like that kind of coordination really occurs in pub games at my level.
So generally if the game snowballs due to you fucking up their jungler and taking objectives really quickly with your team (towers and dragon), it feels okay even with low farming because of the global gold, but if your team falls behind it feels significantly worse than pheonix.
There are several high diamonds I've had games with who did lane udyr, and his damage fucking wrecks shit. You can easily 1v1 almost anyone. He has relatively high bases on his q and r, 200 damage + 275 just for entering phoenix once and autoing, 230+1.6 total ad for one hit in tiger. That's well over 700 damage. There's a streamer that's been doing it too. Zephyr, botrk, anything that gives extremely efficient stats. Tigerbearphoenix udyr's dps is fucking insane. I was just speculating earlier in the thread, and from what I've seen it's real.
On July 29 2013 14:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote: There are several high diamonds I've had games with who did lane udyr, and his damage fucking wrecks shit. You can easily 1v1 almost anyone. He has relatively high bases on his q and r, 200 damage + 275 just for entering phoenix once and autoing, 230+1.6 total ad for one hit in tiger. That's well over 700 damage. There's a streamer that's been doing it too. Zephyr, botrk, anything that gives extremely efficient stats. Tigerbearphoenix udyr's dps is fucking insane. I was just speculating earlier in the thread, and from what I've seen it's real.
How would you skill it? straight up QER Q>R>E>W or do you put a point (or more) in W for lane sustain earlygame?
On July 29 2013 14:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote: There are several high diamonds I've had games with who did lane udyr, and his damage fucking wrecks shit. You can easily 1v1 almost anyone. He has relatively high bases on his q and r, 200 damage + 275 just for entering phoenix once and autoing, 230+1.6 total ad for one hit in tiger. That's well over 700 damage. There's a streamer that's been doing it too. Zephyr, botrk, anything that gives extremely efficient stats. Tigerbearphoenix udyr's dps is fucking insane. I was just speculating earlier in the thread, and from what I've seen it's real.
How would you skill it? straight up QER Q>R>E>W or do you put a point (or more) in W for lane sustain earlygame?
someone played Tiger/turtle against my pantheon. He maxed WQER because otherwise i'd still manage to outdps him and push him out of lane. After level 5 I didnt "win" a single 1v1 (doesnt mean he killed me either, but I couldn't bully him around which was surprising since i started with first blood on him).
Only downside is that his midgame teamfights where slightly lackluster. Our team simply ignored him and he didnt have the damage to assassinate our adc.
On July 29 2013 14:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote: There are several high diamonds I've had games with who did lane udyr, and his damage fucking wrecks shit. You can easily 1v1 almost anyone. He has relatively high bases on his q and r, 200 damage + 275 just for entering phoenix once and autoing, 230+1.6 total ad for one hit in tiger. That's well over 700 damage. There's a streamer that's been doing it too. Zephyr, botrk, anything that gives extremely efficient stats. Tigerbearphoenix udyr's dps is fucking insane. I was just speculating earlier in the thread, and from what I've seen it's real.
How would you skill it? straight up QER Q>R>E>W or do you put a point (or more) in W for lane sustain earlygame?
someone played Tiger/turtle against my pantheon. He maxed WQER because otherwise i'd still manage to outdps him and push him out of lane. After level 5 I didnt "win" a single 1v1 (doesnt mean he killed me either, but I couldn't bully him around which was surprising since i started with first blood on him).
Only downside is that his midgame teamfights where slightly lackluster. Our team simply ignored him and he didnt have the damage to assassinate our adc.
Yeah maxing W is standard (maybe not always first), he was talking about maxing Q, E and R and having W as the not maxed skill.
You sometimes max W on lane Udyr against hard lanes (like Panth). Ideally you want to max Q>E/R because that gives you insane damage. You'll end up on the squishy side compared to your RWE max Udyr, but it shouldn't matter because QRE max Udyr outduels almost everyone 1v1 or even 1v2.
I'm playing quite a lot of Tiger Udyr toplane these days and while I crush my lane nearly every game i'm having troubles transitionning past that, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do or when.
I'm running 21/9/0 Masteries, flat AD reds and quints, Armor Yellows, Scaling MR Blues. Flash/Ignite Building [Starting items variable, usually DBlade] > Tabis/Mercs > Phage > Triforce > Randuin+Visage > More tank items
-When I try to roam, I dont feel really useful in fights, I can 1v1 anyone but in larger fights I just get kited/focused down. -I tried pushing top all day, but even when I get their whole team to chase me around the map my team doesn't really manage to get objectives elsewhere.
Should I: -Build more tanky to contribute better in fights? (9/21 masteries? Delaying triforce to get a tank item after phage?) -Communicate better with my team so that they actually do something else than staying under their tower when 4 people are trying/failing to gank me top? -Run Teleport instead of Ignite and do both?
(I'm currently silver 3, though my mmr is probably a bit higher I dont play enough rankeds to stabilize and I'm still winning 30+points per win)
On July 29 2013 14:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote: There are several high diamonds I've had games with who did lane udyr, and his damage fucking wrecks shit. You can easily 1v1 almost anyone. He has relatively high bases on his q and r, 200 damage + 275 just for entering phoenix once and autoing, 230+1.6 total ad for one hit in tiger. That's well over 700 damage. There's a streamer that's been doing it too. Zephyr, botrk, anything that gives extremely efficient stats. Tigerbearphoenix udyr's dps is fucking insane. I was just speculating earlier in the thread, and from what I've seen it's real.
How would you skill it? straight up QER Q>R>E>W or do you put a point (or more) in W for lane sustain earlygame?
someone played Tiger/turtle against my pantheon. He maxed WQER because otherwise i'd still manage to outdps him and push him out of lane. After level 5 I didnt "win" a single 1v1 (doesnt mean he killed me either, but I couldn't bully him around which was surprising since i started with first blood on him).
Only downside is that his midgame teamfights where slightly lackluster. Our team simply ignored him and he didnt have the damage to assassinate our adc.
Pantheon falls off against Udyr really hard because Udyr can build full tank and still put out damage while Pantheon has to build damage. Even if you're like 3 kills ahead in first 10 minutes you can still lose when he comes to lane with Tabi/Warden/Chain Vest and suddenly he's unkillable by you.
On September 03 2013 17:44 BobMcJohnson wrote: I'm playing quite a lot of Tiger Udyr toplane these days and while I crush my lane nearly every game i'm having troubles transitionning past that, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do or when.
I'm running 21/9/0 Masteries, flat AD reds and quints, Armor Yellows, Scaling MR Blues. Flash/Ignite Building [Starting items variable, usually DBlade] > Tabis/Mercs > Phage > Triforce > Randuin+Visage > More tank items
-When I try to roam, I dont feel really useful in fights, I can 1v1 anyone but in larger fights I just get kited/focused down. -I tried pushing top all day, but even when I get their whole team to chase me around the map my team doesn't really manage to get objectives elsewhere.
Should I: -Build more tanky to contribute better in fights? (9/21 masteries? Delaying triforce to get a tank item after phage?) -Communicate better with my team so that they actually do something else than staying under their tower when 4 people are trying/failing to gank me top? -Run Teleport instead of Ignite and do both?
(I'm currently silver 3, though my mmr is probably a bit higher I dont play enough rankeds to stabilize and I'm still winning 30+points per win)
tldr: Win lane, lose game, what do?
If you want to be relevant in teamfights Triforce probably isn't the best way to go. Triforce is a dueling item and if you're gonna build him like that you probably want to be splitpushing a lot. I'm a sunfire fan personally. I think that Udyr turns into a peelbot for your ADC in teamfights and you just want to sit in the middle of everything getting bear and randuin procs on everyone every time it's available. I also run Ghost instead of Flash on Udyr. You shouldn't be having to flash initiate as a melee champ with barely any gapclose and only a single-target stun. Ghost will allow you to stick on targets better in teamfights even if they have escapes or blinks. Also 9/21/0 might be good because for melee champs the slow reduction/tenacity masteries are huge.
I dunno though, the max QRE Udyr with full dps sounds fun too.
I'll try going more 9/21 with ghost and leaving Phage as is until lategame.
I actually barely ever build sunfire, i'll try that too, Randuin seems so much more cost efficient and the damage of sunfire seems quite low. How do you decide between the two? Or do you build both anyways?
Sunfire damage is low if its only hitting 1 guy, but if you are balls deep in the middle of the enemy in a team fight you are hitting 3+ people with the damage which adds up. It also helps with split pushing, as unless you get some points in phoenix early on, udyr doesn't exactly have the best wave clear since without phoenix he is single target.
sunfire is pretty meh, if you're going to be next to someone for a long time there are much better items to get and if you're not its an ok tank item. i'd like to see replays where sunfire is hitting 3 people consistently because from my experience teamfights are usually super spread out except for ad/support combos, and MAYBE double bruiser combo jump on 1 guy, but 40 dps to both is pretty small because of their magic resist and the majority of the damage is coming from the rest of your team so the %increase is really small. im not sure with the phage change but im guessing trinity is still the best item to get. Udyr is a terrible peel bot (compared to most tanky junglers) however its the right play a lot of times because a lot of teamfights are not fully committed and their AD/AP/Support stay back a bit and just hit tanks in which case diving them will just get you killed while even a little help on killing a diving melee is good. However your priority should always be on the highest damage targets and the problem with building full tank is you won't be able to 1v1 them and you might have problems chasing them and thats why trinity is good. You're already naturally tanky so you can get away with it as long as you are really farmed. If you're not really farmed as udyr you're going to suck and might as well just build full tank and bait some guys to auto hit you.
i always thought trinity force is the ideal udyr item on teamfights because it gave you enough damage to burst squisies in a reasonable amount of time and also the mobility to catch them+the extra mana to spam W in the pre fight poke war. However if you're underfed you will just get blown up but if you have like spirit of the ancient golem/tabi/trinity at 20-25 minutes you're going to be damn tanky anyway and you just get frozen heart/spirit visage and randuins and you're unkillable anyways.
Most my games, I open Blade then go Golem SS, Tabi, Visage. From there, I feel like I need more armor so I end up going FH, sometimes Omen. As much as I like Trinity, there's just not enough opportunity to fit it in without taking a hit to how you can run in 1v3/1v4 to get things started.
are people still going tiger udyr jungle? Why not just play xin or vi something with stronger ganks and better damage and better mobility and not that much less tanky and farms probably as fast or faster than tiger udyr
also running in 1v3/1v4 wat wat sounds dubious at best. a 1 second stun isnt enough to start a teamfight and you're going to lose so much hp unless you have some reasonable back up initiate in which case you should probably just wait for them to initiate before running in
On September 05 2013 23:46 Slayer91 wrote: are people still going tiger udyr jungle? Why not just play xin or vi something with stronger ganks and better damage and better mobility and not that much less tanky and farms probably as fast or faster than tiger udyr
No, I've converted since our last talk. tbh, I personally can't tell much of a difference, rofl. T_T Trade off is faster jungling for slightly weaker ganks. And if playing more Noc lately with CT's build is any indication, I'm in a pretty herbivore mood with my junglers lately.
I feel like Udyr doesn't fall off as hard compared to Xin, that's just me. I can't work with Vi, gg.
Edit: Talking about my own games from yesterday, it wasn't a literal 1v3/1v4 but I find a pick and go on it but then there's reinforcements for both teams and it ends up becoming a 4v4 or something. It might look like a 1v3 at first but help wasn't that far away. I get your point about the paltry stun and it is a poor way to initiate. I guess I have to work on my patience.
thats just because you probably go full retard with xin more because you can do so much shit and then feed early, then laterend up diving in 1v5 while with udyr its easy to just spam w wait for someone to fuck up and then dive in and you never gank unless its a good gank because otherwise theres no chance of sucess
I don't know why you'd start dolans blade with pheonix udyr though, im not sure it was ever good tbh is CT that c9 guy who just farmed liek 3 damage items and 1 shot people? thought that was meteos, That's a super underrated style though, herbivore style jungler has a lot of potential
On September 05 2013 23:52 Slayer91 wrote: thats just because you probably go full retard with xin more because you can do so much shit and then feed early, then laterend up diving in 1v5 while with udyr its easy to just spam w wait for someone to fuck up and then dive in and you never gank unless its a good gank because otherwise theres no chance of sucess
I don't know why you'd start dolans blade with pheonix udyr though, im not sure it was ever good tbh is CT that c9 guy who just farmed liek 3 damage items and 1 shot people? thought that was meteos, That's a super underrated style though, herbivore style jungler has a lot of potential
The feels when Slayer91 uses "full retarded" to describe how you play Xin and sadly you can offer no rebuttal.
Blade is nice, you don't necessarily need the extra pots from Machete+5 and I definitely feel the extra damage helps in ganks. :<
CT Noc is Madreds, Zerkers, Kindle, Sunfire, GolemSS, FH. I top it off with Trinity (selling Madreds), it has obscene farming potential. Meteos did full AD Noc and he shit on people cause they're C9 and NA's bad. And I think you mean "overrated"? You're saying the opposite has a lot of potential. @_@ idk
no, its underrated, because it has lots of potential but everyone just plays lee sin and stacks dolans blades i wonder why he stacks cdr on noct, seems interesting but yeah its probably pretty scary for ads used to facing 50 cs junglers to facing someone with 200 cs
but yeah full retard is the standard xin playstyle, dunno he just promotes that playstyle, but if it works out its pretty dominant
On September 06 2013 00:20 Slayer91 wrote: no, its underrated, because it has lots of potential but everyone just plays lee sin and stacks dolans blades i wonder why he stacks cdr on noct, seems interesting but yeah its probably pretty scary for ads used to facing 50 cs junglers to facing someone with 200 cs
but yeah full retard is the standard xin playstyle, dunno he just promotes that playstyle, but if it works out its pretty dominant
The max CDR is probably just a comfortable byproduct of the build. GolemSS for Tenacity/HP, FH for aura/Armor. CDR is just extra bonus from both items. More Paranoia is never bad either.
I got recently called out for starting a couple Doran Rings on phoenix jungle Udyr, while it has been giving me solid results (something like 8-3 in platinum 5 EUW, "poltrip" is my acc). I´d like to propose a simple build comparison to see how other Udyr players feel about this approach.
Build 1: Spirit of the Ancient Golem + Tabi (3000 gold) - 500 HP - 10 % CDR - 25 armor - 10% reduced damage from basic attacks - 14 HP/5 - 7 MP/5 - Tenacity - 30% increased damage to monsters
Build 2: 2 Doran Rings + Treads + Giant´s Belt (3000 gold) - 500 HP - 25 resist - Tenacity - 30 AP - 6 MP/5 - 8 MP per kill
I like this comparison because it seems surprisingly close. Even the 30 AP = 14 HP/5 if considering constant combat due to turtle shield efficiency increase. The mana per kill suits my jungle style too, but that´s maybe a preference thing. Overall, though, it is significantly more mana which is useful to Udyr early game. Even though, missing 10% CDR sucks obviously. However, for me, a few points make build 2 come out ahead: i) increased damage to champions (although admittedly it pales vs monsters), and, maybe more importantly, ii) you are 1000 gold closer to a another more impactful item such as Randuin´s.
I am not talking about AP Udyr! Just about the potential 2 Doran Rings start. This start gives you a noticeable oomph in early game fights and ganks. Is it me, or do we need DiamondProx to start doing it for others to realize its potential?
doesnt seem too bad of an idea but probably not worth losing the 10% reduced basic attack + cdr. (which should easily outstrip the +15shield +7.5 dps+15 dmg later on) early game against heavy ap teams, rushing 2xdolans rings +mercs might be an ok idea I guess. Definitely later on the game the worst it gets, and the advantages early are pretty small unless you have a way to make it count early on.
Right, the idea is to make it count early on. But why do you say it gets worse later on? Having something like Randuin´s while with the other option you would have an uncompleted item should be game-breaking and easily tip the scales?
Basically, as I see it, with the Doran Rings you would have probably a better early game, a slightly worse "mid" game, and then a big high point when you complete Randuin´s/other.
Basically, if you make it count early, you are even closer to Randuin´s / big-ticket item. Once you have this big-ticket item, you again have more chances to make an impact and get even closer to a second big-ticket item, etc. It´s my impression that this is a better approach for Udyr to impact the game and not fall off; this is, having several points in the game when he has better chances to make an impact, instead of completing Spirit of the AG and Tabi and being "ok"/solid but far away from an impactful item. Just my opinion.
On October 08 2013 19:35 unjugon wrote: I got recently called out for starting a couple Doran Rings on phoenix jungle Udyr, while it has been giving me solid results (something like 8-3 in platinum 5 EUW, "poltrip" is my acc). This start gives you a noticeable oomph in early game fights and ganks.
Definitely will try this, thank you.
I believe Udyr is the best duelist at early game (with double buffs he can kill everyone). One should grab small items and start snowballing.
Randuins really isn't that cost effective. Very often I prefer to get wardens+giants belt instead. Most giants belt items aren't that cost effective on udyr. Frozen heart is usually preferred over randuins unless the slow is really necessary. Also CDR increases dps by a % basis, same with the %minion damage, meaning that 2 dorans rings is just as good at minute 3 but never scales at all. (except with armour/magic resist on the turtle shield bonus)
If you don't want to fall off as udyr and you are doing well eraly game the best option is nearly always sotga+tabi+trinity force. Then you get wardens mail/some magic resist into frozen heart or something.
SOTAG and tabi is a very cost effective combo because the regen and minion damage from spirit stone component is perfect for early game farming while having the mana/hp to countergank/react to someone overextending, while the tenacity is basically free and pays off the cost of the spirit stone regen which is useless later. Then you get tabi instead of mercs and the tabi passive is probably one of the most cost effective in the game considering AD Carries are the main incoming damage source, more so as you get later in the game. (That's a lot of what I meant about getting weaker later, the 10% cdr and 10% reduced basic attacks keeps getting better and the 2 dorans rings is the same/gets worse when mana regen becomes worse and the flat AP is better on a level 1-3 phoenix stance than a %increase on a lvl 5 phoenix stance from 10% cdr becomes better. (similarly the 10% more turtle shield becomes better than 15 more ap, especially if you are stacking cdr because it scales multiplicatively, the first 10% is actually the worst)
I believe Udyr is the best duelist at early game (with double buffs he can kill everyone). One should grab small items and start snowballing.
Thanks! let me know if you want me to give some more details on how I play it (though I guess nowadays one can mostly infer it from lolking)
Slayer, I don´t disagree with anything you say. Note that the giant´s belt item could be a Solari or an Iceborn, which are more impactful IMO than the SOTAG (although this one is solid as heck, can´t disagree with that). I am actually trying items following boots, either straight to Solari or just 1 Doran+Iceborn.
Giants belt is so you aren't short on health, and its only 1k gold closer. You can't measure impactfulness of having a 3k gold item 1k gold quicker versus having a 2k gold item for the entire duration before that.
Being a good duelist doesn't imply that you should build early game items. If you are already the best duelist in the game getting early game items doesn't make that much sense. Dorans items early are great for early tower dives, but in terms of trying to pick fights the main problem is lack of a gap closer and most people will run from your dorans or spirit stone. It will help a bit in 2v2 fights, but as mentioned you already excel in those and rarely lose if played correctly.
Going along what you say, I do think the early Giant´s Belt is probably best if going for such a start. I wonder if following up with a Mallet could have some value here, nobody expects that item at that time. Easy to get a Negatron or Chain Vest for mitigation right after depending on who is doing better on the enemy team.
You shouldn't focus overly much on CC. It's very hard to outrun udyr anyway, his damage falls off fast which is why I like trinity force. Any melee has problems with cc the reason people think udyr has a kiting problem is mostly because he doesnt have any burst damage or gap closer. But that's more of a timing+tankiness problem than a cc problem.
Not that cc is bad, but I don't think rushing mallet is a good idea because you either want lots of resists+cdr or damage, stacking health on udyr isn't really optimal.
I agree with the first paragraph and with HP not being optimal overall, but it kinda is early game. I think we had a similar discussion about warmogs on Udyr, but anyhow as said it is easy and cheap to add simple resists right after Mallet. I guess I´ll try it when I get the chance.
because you're losing on turtle stacks by the time you get to pheonix high ranks so you're eithe going to be super squishy or you'll have pheonix past the point you do most of your farming
there isnt a big advantage with having tiger early anyway
On October 20 2013 06:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: is the damage on phoenix at level 2-3 ganks appreciable compared to tiger? tiger seems like i do so much more
They're comparable, Tiger just has a way better ratio and its damage is more noticeable early, but youre losing alot of farming speed by maxing tiger over phoenix tho
So is Udyr like super strong now or smth? Just lost a game to him jungling (he ended with 11/0 score) couldnt 3v1 him at some point. Just beating people left and right. Dunno if it was just our composition or smth but he seems unkillable with just a doran blade and Spirit of golem. It looked like he maxed Tiger first and snowballed of first blood. But still he looked like a beast. Its weird cause one game he looks useless duo to us just having wards the other game he stomps everyone really hard. Also i would like to try him out but im still confused about skill maxing order and using them xd So if I want super early game I start doran blade and max Q first right? If i dont want to do this I should max R? Also in late game how should I be using skills in teamfights? E to stun, then Q for dmg and W to tank never using R in teamfights only for farming?
no what i mean is i never see sejuanis going around the map 1v3 people killing them etc. Shes more about utility even if feed Also can u give me advice in my post earlier?
yeah but udyr has shit utility so he has to do something well
advice is to get more fed than udyr or dont die to him in the first place, it's not he does anything sneaky, he just runs up and punches you until you are dead
you edited in the last bits i didnt read them. you could just read the original post but ok: max q or r your choice. W before you run in then E then Q or R then W again then another E R is standard dolans blade with q only, q starts rely on snowballing early. if you get R skip Q until the end and if you get Q max you probably will never use R except to farm creep waves at level 16-18
Coming back to the Doran rings start in the jungle, I have been going 2 dorans-boots 1-Face of the Mountain-Merc Treads, then usually following it up with a sunfire. It´s gone well so far and the early dorans still feel good, but I am not sure of the effectiveness of the FoTM.
It feels good to tax a lane every couple minutes and give teammates health+gold -recently I have been making a conscious effort to push a tower down whenever opponents leave their lane, even if that might lead to a death elsewhere on the map. And those clutch saves with the shield. It seems like the stats are just what the doctor ordered for early-mid game jungler too.
Has anyone else toyed with the idea of Gp10 support items in the jungle?
Why would you do that when you can just get one of the jungle items? SotAG is so strong on him there's really no reason to get anything else, and you can't have both together.
Hey ZERG, I am that weird GP player going on about Liandry´s. In this particular case, the Doran rings work really well to give Udyr more punch early game, and SotAG surely isn´t as good as was before.
edit: spirit of the ancient golem 350 hp valued at 920 gold. Tenacity on it valued at 200 (delta from merc/ninja tabi) gold+10% reduce auto attack damage. Elder lizard valued at 1080 gold+the true damage.
40 gold -10% auto damage vs elder lizard proc. Weights for AD and hp vary but I would say AD becomes worse later as you'll get to auto less and hp becomes better because of higher burst damage. also elder lizard is another 1k gold spent on damage that could have went toward getting trinity faster so that's going against it, but you do farm faster and do more burst in ganks
I guess lizard elder is justifiable if you can get away with combining it with Ninja Tabi rather than Mercs (when enemy team has very little AoE CC/magic damage)
probably less enemy burst then also, but you also have the trinity+tabi+golem combo into wardens mail+chain vest into frozen heart value bomb i guess its just awkward to get trinity+lizard and trinity is like so much better than every other item its insane
its just the exact reverse opposite from standard ganking phase-->teamfight phase damage-->tank transition you use the extra tankiness early to do dumb shit because you can't gank normally as well as most junglers and then get damage because you're super tanky also the pheonix rank 5 at lvl 9 gives you quite a lot of damage, and then turtle ranks up to 5 at level 12 and you're quite a bit tankier with that, so getting tank-->damage to match your damage-->tank skill order kinda works out nicely
On January 10 2014 08:32 unjugon wrote: Hey ZERG, I am that weird GP player going on about Liandry´s. In this particular case, the Doran rings work really well to give Udyr more punch early game, and SotAG surely isn´t as good as was before.
I'm just curious as to how you actually come to these conclusions, because Doran's Rings don't provide Udyr with near as good stats for gold value as Spirit Stone does, they're harder to build because it's one part instead of three small ones, they're slot inefficient, they don't build into anything, they slow down your clears when compared to Machete start, and Spirit Stone builds into a core Udyr item which also actively increases your gold generation.
It's really not even a question. Doran's Ring sucks when compared to Spirit Stone.
On January 11 2014 04:43 arb wrote: Still believe if you're going Phoenix Wits end is alot stronger imo, havent really had alot of experience with Tforce though
wits isnt actually that good because you lack some sticking power by the time you can finish it
Okay after playing a bunch more Udyr and figuring some shit out i think i've got him down :
Runes : As Red / Armor Yellow / Mr/L or Flat MR blues / MS Quints Masteries : 0/21/9 Extra movespeed and buff duration real good
Skill order R>W=E>Q Feel like if i need the extra tankiness i'll go W over E but alot of times i'll zigzag the points and max both tbh.
Build Machete/5 -> SS/boots -> Golem Stone/Tabi -> Randuins/SV/Frozen Fist or whatever you really need. If you need the uber peel FrozenFist is super retarded good, if you wanna just be tanky get Randi/Sv if you need to carry Triforce is really a good option too.
Just cant be scared of shit and go around pimp handing everything. Pretty sold on Frozen hand being uberly good now tbh
points in E are really overrated, sometimes i don't even max it and get 5 points in Q I get trinity second item every game nowadays unless im real behind
frozen fist isnt that great because it overlaps a lot with your bear stun, and the cd is longer than your stance switch cd, its not bad at all but its just awkward I'd always get banshee over SV now as well, if you want cdr frozen heart is really good, about as good as randuins, at least after 3k hp
On March 22 2014 21:24 Slayer91 wrote: points in E are really overrated, sometimes i don't even max it and get 5 points in Q I get trinity second item every game nowadays unless im real behind
frozen fist isnt that great because it overlaps a lot with your bear stun, and the cd is longer than your stance switch cd, its not bad at all but its just awkward I'd always get banshee over SV now as well, if you want cdr frozen heart is really good, about as good as randuins, at least after 3k hp
I like trinity if i'm fed, I do sometimes not max bear to be honest but i dunno. Didn't know about the fist thing though. Always been a huge fan of SV and FH but i dunno Banshees is pretty great too I guess. I think i like building tanky before Triforce though or atleast getting wardens +negatron cloak before starting depending on whos fed.
I feel like if you go Triforce you basically need to max Q > E though
try just getting trinity every game you are already tanky, so tanky that you are not maxing W which is one of the best shields in the game
once you start going trinity you realize how useless you are later without out it. you simply lose too much damage stance dancing later in the game without it. Frozen fist is an okay alternative but its not the same. Frozen fist doesn't even make you that much tankier than trinity anyway
you don't need to go Q>E with trinity, it just becomes more favourable because sheen proc means you can better abuse having more stances to play with and having trinity speed decreases your reliance on E speed.
On March 22 2014 23:16 Slayer91 wrote: try just getting trinity every game you are already tanky, so tanky that you are not maxing W which is one of the best shields in the game
once you start going trinity you realize how useless you are later without out it. you simply lose too much damage stance dancing later in the game without it. Frozen fist is an okay alternative but its not the same. Frozen fist doesn't even make you that much tankier than trinity anyway
you don't need to go Q>E with trinity, it just becomes more favourable because sheen proc means you can better abuse having more stances to play with and having trinity speed decreases your reliance on E speed.
Do you just all tank after Tforce? That seems like the best route to me, having more than 1 offensive item on Udyr seems kinda bad to me. And Randuins has always been core/super good on him imo.
EDIT : The extra damage you get off tiger + triforce is pretty redonk. Went golem triforce into randuins/banshees whatever i need
On March 24 2014 00:13 Slayer91 wrote: trinity force just outshines every other item, I can't even think of another good offensive item to get, maybe botrk or lw
I think bork is good toplane thats about it imo. The thing I hate most is they made Udyr in bear stance walk like he does before he took a stance, instead of running like he's yelling roar all the time :<
So I tried out Feral Flare Udyr last night, you can get it stacked up really fast, but it does leave you squishy for quite awhile (I am used to building SotAG first). I have liked the recommendations in this thread to rush TF, but I feel with FF first, it leaves me too squishy. I went Razor/boots -> Wriggles -> Mercs (really miss the tenacity from SotAG) -> Randuins. It seemed pretty solid and was able to carry quite hard (FF + Pheonix = nice dps) what do you guys think of this build? And would you still try to fit TF in there, maybe after Randuins?
might be interesting to try feral flare+wits end for damage with randuins and other items for defense, depends on how hard targets are to stick to, you'd probably forget about tiger stance and go 5 bear pheonix and turtle, might be decent.
Just go Feral + Bork but max turtle after level 5 imo. You can even be extremely greedy and take every blue and keep the stacks up, attack so fast, a strong shield up constantly and FF + Bork passive dmg is pretty instane that you don't need Tiger/Phoenix maxed asap.
It seems like you would just get cc'ed and blown up with this build before you could get any substantial life steal started. Are you going Tiger first for the BorK AD/AS scaling? Wouldn't that make your clears and thus your FF stacking slower? I haven't tried this build but it seems really risky and/or suboptimal, IMO.
On April 19 2014 04:09 YouGotNothin wrote: It seems like you would just get cc'ed and blown up with this build before you could get any substantial life steal started. Are you going Tiger first for the BorK AD/AS scaling? Wouldn't that make your clears and thus your FF stacking slower? I haven't tried this build but it seems really risky and/or suboptimal, IMO.
He actually has pretty high base hp, among the highest im pretty sure so you shouldnt be too weak, plus a spammable shield. you can easily kill the small monsters with tiger while melting the big ones. esp with all the attack speed youre getting from tiger active + the damage on the rend. maybe grab a level or two in phoenix or something.
nearly everyone jungle goes flare. save your opinions for topics you know something about please, no need to trash talk something that is proven to be effective 100%
nearly everyone jungle goes flare. save your opinions for topics you know something about please, no need to trash talk something that is proven to be effective 100%
Saying that to a guy who reached EUW top 20 by spamming Udyr takes a lot of courage.
nearly everyone jungle goes flare. save your opinions for topics you know something about please, no need to trash talk something that is proven to be effective 100%
Saying that to a guy who reached EUW top 20 by spamming Udyr takes a lot of courage.
Not a huge fan of the AFK farm jungle style of Udyr either tbh.
Much rather build tanky and roam around and gank(also the less i see : "LOL TRICK2G WANNABE FAGGOT" the better)
nearly everyone jungle goes flare. save your opinions for topics you know something about please, no need to trash talk something that is proven to be effective 100%
Slayer is the resident Udyr expert, you goddamned newb.
I don't mind this trend of single player jungle farm udyrs, except that so many of them take it to SUCH an extreme. Like if my lane is pushed in to my tower and the enemy is dancing around my tower at 2/3 health... and ur right next to it... come gank man. it's a free kill don't be retarded
just a psa to you udyrs who play that style
also i rush golem and boots. just my style though. I think udyr is much more useful for your team as a tank
On June 25 2014 11:55 GreggSauce wrote: so? he's still not better than the best players.
flawed argument is flawed.
no good players play udyr anymore im sure you can be reassured that the LCS NA player ADC PLAYER from CURSE GAMING goes feral flare in solo queue though. only one jungler in that list and he played one game, took ghost and also fed.
the only two junglers on the "most successful players list" both build ancient golem and out of those only saint vicious actually plays him consistently
its also worth noting that although feral flare is certainly suboptimal its a gamble that can pay off while madreds itself is just god awful and is just a stepping stone to tap into that sweet sweet feral flare magic damage on hit.
also all of these guys go feral flare trinity force which is pretty much never going to work in any game that matters because its too squishy, back when diamondprox still played him he wasnt even getting any offensive items which although i dont agree with i can defnitely see the reasoning.
as for so called "afk jungle farm style", I would suggest that this rather be called "bad jungling" since you're supposed to farm a lot anyway on pretty much everyone and missing good opportunities to gank is just not playing well. I mean udyr is defnitely at peak early and midgame and although his lategame isn't exactly "weak" it's definitely not strong and theres no chance you're going to carry consistently with a team thats behind because it's too easy to focus you if you're the only real threat especially this patch with ADCs going back to rushing IE.
edit: shookl2 also went tiger stance udyr in the game he went feral flare, which although is more reasonable tiger stance udyr is just bad because it farms slowly and theres plenty of other physical damage junglers who farm fast and are more useful later (or used to be, maybe just wukong and yi are better at it now) he also took levels in pheonix stance at level 5 and 10 and a rank 2 pheonix stance does absolutely dick past 4 minutes in the game he was probably drunk high and getting fucked by gay sailors when he was playing that game
after playing with him and against him at gold level i think that he's a good ganker, a good jungle farmer and its not that easy to counter jungle him. i feel that he isn't that amazing in team fights, what works really well is going triforce then tank and just split push and try to get the enemy team chase you all over the map while the rest of your team takes objectives
you can definitely teamfight with udyr it just takes a lot of finesse and practice it's a lot easier to just run around in some other lane being annoying I'm not sure if its the best way to play, though it probably is if you're behind.
You sort of want max bear stance and some cdr to play that style, for teamfights you want to have Q W and R maxed and cdr is a bit less important
On September 05 2014 17:53 Slayer91 wrote: you can definitely teamfight with udyr it just takes a lot of finesse and practice it's a lot easier to just run around in some other lane being annoying I'm not sure if its the best way to play, though it probably is if you're behind.
You sort of want max bear stance and some cdr to play that style, for teamfights you want to have Q W and R maxed and cdr is a bit less important
what are the pros of maxing Q? what's the best skill order and item build for jungle udyr at the moment?
i've been going R>E>W or R>W>E, going madred's>spirit stone (for dragon), FF, frozen heart first item and then a lot of MS items like zephyr, swiftness boots, triforce last. i alternate between botrk/banshees veil depending if i need to spellblock tank or do damage
I feel that with my build even if i kill baron and use red potion I have less than 200 atk, a bit more if i get botrk, so Q does not do that much damage. I feel like Q is only good for rushing towers and rank 3 is enough since the 15% damage is flat and the bonus AS is not that much
out of all 4 stances, I feel that W is probably the weakest in lategame fighting as it gives only a 100 damage block shield but i've been maxing it early for early tankiness
On September 05 2014 17:53 Slayer91 wrote: you can definitely teamfight with udyr it just takes a lot of finesse and practice it's a lot easier to just run around in some other lane being annoying I'm not sure if its the best way to play, though it probably is if you're behind.
You sort of want max bear stance and some cdr to play that style, for teamfights you want to have Q W and R maxed and cdr is a bit less important
what are the pros of maxing Q? what's the best skill order and item build for jungle udyr at the moment?
i've been going R>E>W or R>W>E, going madred's>spirit stone (for dragon), FF, frozen heart first item and then a lot of MS items like zephyr, swiftness boots, triforce last. i alternate between botrk/banshees veil depending if i need to spellblock tank or do damage
I feel that with my build even if i kill baron and use red potion I have less than 200 atk, a bit more if i get botrk, so Q does not do that much damage. I feel like Q is only good for rushing towers and rank 3 is enough since the 15% damage is flat and the bonus AS is not that much
out of all 4 stances, I feel that W is probably the weakest in lategame fighting as it gives only a 100 damage block shield but i've been maxing it early for early tankiness
How do you figure a 4s cd shield for 100 is bad? 20s fight and you get 500 raw hp from shields... free warmogs is far from bad.
Maxing Q gives you a ton more damage if you built a damage item. If you have trinity force for example Q will do like ten times the dps of R.
I think you should build tankier, better for any game scenario where your team isn't wicked behind just cuz. I dunno, trade your lantern for golem and you can actually kill things and dive things. RWER, unless no ganks available level 3 then get E at 4. R>W>Q>E, Get points in E when you finish your damage item.
More old-school style of jungles; snowball lanes, get much farm as can, team > random splitpush bs. I think you'd do more damage in fights by being tankier as well. Unless you do nothing for twenty seconds so all the long cd lock down and burst is used while your team dies 4v5 you're better served to be able to position, peel, and do good things with more survivability.
I'd be going like golem > swifties > wardens / mr hood whichever necessary > trinity > tanky as fuck.
That being said, I'm no Udyr player, so I could be totally wrong.
On September 05 2014 17:53 Slayer91 wrote: you can definitely teamfight with udyr it just takes a lot of finesse and practice it's a lot easier to just run around in some other lane being annoying I'm not sure if its the best way to play, though it probably is if you're behind.
You sort of want max bear stance and some cdr to play that style, for teamfights you want to have Q W and R maxed and cdr is a bit less important
what are the pros of maxing Q? what's the best skill order and item build for jungle udyr at the moment?
i've been going R>E>W or R>W>E, going madred's>spirit stone (for dragon), FF, frozen heart first item and then a lot of MS items like zephyr, swiftness boots, triforce last. i alternate between botrk/banshees veil depending if i need to spellblock tank or do damage
I feel that with my build even if i kill baron and use red potion I have less than 200 atk, a bit more if i get botrk, so Q does not do that much damage. I feel like Q is only good for rushing towers and rank 3 is enough since the 15% damage is flat and the bonus AS is not that much
out of all 4 stances, I feel that W is probably the weakest in lategame fighting as it gives only a 100 damage block shield but i've been maxing it early for early tankiness
you go Q after R and W are maxed, its points in E vs points in Q. Normally you get lots of speed from items anyway so you don't need that bear duration that much anyway, Q is quite a bit more damage especially if you have trouble training targets for the full 3 hits.
W is a 220 shield and you can use it before you run into a fight as well as in the poking stage and when you're trying to run or cleaning up or something, you're likely to get well over a warmogs of hp in any fight that isn't decided by someone getting caught or some such.
It's not that Q out damages R, I mean most people have more armour than magic resist so the extra damage isn't that much, it's more that most of your damage from Q comes from the first hit and attack speed buff, and most of the damage from R comes from the AoE damage and the first 200 on hit. After that your best bet is to use other stances for mobility/tankiness and then wait for cds, sometimes you stay in R for another 200 bonus damage. You can try to get 5 auto hits with bear+r proc+2 hits+r proc or you can go bear tiger pheonix turtle bear tiger and get way more damage and more everything as well as better ability to react to what happens and better use of sheen procs. free attack speed on tiger is nice for trying to land the full 2 pheonix procs as well.
With E+trinity proc and thne Q and then R+trniity proc you're bursting for a very high amount you can do that every few seconds as long as you've got the hp to get away with it.
So I've been playing a lot of junglers lately (Kha'zix, Rengar, Diana, Udyr) and I've had the most success lately with manbearbird. I more or less copied this build and refined it a bit after watching some pug Udyr come out of the jungle with Feral Flare after 12 minutes (something I personally haven't done yet, best is 14 min) and proceed to either 1v1 the carries on my team like they're paper or solo push tower because of Trinity+Tiger procs.
Item build: Madreds + Boots (back at 800 gold) > Spirit Stone > Lantern > Phage > Trinity > build accordingly My usual endgame turns out to be Feral Flare, Tabi, Trinity, Zephyr, Randuin's, and some 6th item that I'm not entirely sold on yet. Spirit Stone is what makes this build work imo. The sustain from the passive and additional monster damage means you can base far less compared to most other junglers while having the clear speed comparable to Yi and Rengar. The pug Udyr I saw didn't go Zephyr but I think it's a very fitting item for Udyr with the AS/MS/Tenacity stats. Against champions like Viktor, who are getting more play time in pub games and have a very good CC ability, Zephyr becomes that much more appealing for melee champions like Udyr
Masteries are 21/0/9. Skill order is QRRERWRER. After R is max, I tend to level W and E evenly. This might not be the most optimal and it's definitely not what Slayer suggests but I like having the utility from Turtle and Bear so I don't focus on straight max W second. By 18, I do max W and it depends if I need more DPS (Q) or MS (E) at the end game. Usually it leans towards Q max third.
I should preface this by saying that this is a very greedy build. You not only take 2nd Blue spawn for additional FF stacks but the CDR helps if you decide to solo Dragon which is entirely possible by level 7. You want to finish Flare by 15 min and it's not unusual for me to have more than 30 stacks before 30 minutes. Because your focus is far more invested on farming than ganking, you really need to be able to read the lanes and have an idea of where the enemy wards/jungler are. I tend to hardcore farm if I don't have Red buff but even then, there are times where you should go to a lane because you can get a turret a few minutes faster because of your DPS. As long as you stay on point with your farm, you'll go into mid game with 1-2 levels ahead of solo lanes perhaps and even 3-4 levels up on the enemy ADC.
Isnt that very similar to what trick2g does? You can look him up and see if there is some kind of optimiziation you can take over from him
With levels in E after R its easier to get your feral stacks since it decreases your downtime between camps. Thats why i would personally delay some levels into W for E IF i can manage to get away without a whole lot of grouping and big fights instead of leveling W and E evenly. It is riskier tho. I guess in the end it comes down to farming/splitpush vs fighting
Oh and try out frozen heart. CDR on udyr is pretty sexy
On September 28 2014 08:07 Bam Lee wrote: Isnt that very similar to what trick2g does? You can look him up and see if there is some kind of optimiziation you can take over from him
With levels in E after R its easier to get your feral stacks since it decreases your downtime between camps. Thats why i would personally delay some levels into W for E IF i can manage to get away without a whole lot of grouping and big fights instead of leveling W and E evenly. It is riskier tho. I guess in the end it comes down to farming/splitpush vs fighting
Oh and try out frozen heart. CDR on udyr is pretty sexy
I'd pretty much always max R/W/Q and leave E at 3? points Once it was mentioned here i noticed the movespeeds not that game breaking tbh. not as much as the extra single target damage or the shield adds up to
one of the stronkest junglers probably with feral flare you can rush it at like 7-8 minutes if you get fb or something I think. feral flare+boots2+locket/FH into trinity/randuins into sell zephyr for boots
inb4 feral nerf doe udyr is super weak now if you fall behind because jungle xp is shit but if you are doing well you get insane amount of feral stacks from kills/assists
I'm going RQRERW R>W>Q>E but you can go RWR or RQRW I think depending on how you want to play early you can try RQE and level 3 gank but it sets you behind if it doesnt work.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/udyr/p.png)
Monkey's Agility: ![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/udyr/q.png)
Tiger Stance:![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/udyr/w.png)
Turtle Stance:![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/udyr/e.png)
Bear Stance![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/udyr/r.png)
Phoenix Stance![[image loading]](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1394/89893440.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/2194/59863875.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/4599/21835473.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/8688/54840281.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2853/78645473.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/5594/65600317.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3593/88571299.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/champ/amumu.png)
Difficult: 4/5![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/champ/jarvaniv.png)
Difficult: 3.5/5![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/champ/leesin.png)
Difficult: 2.5/5![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/champ/nautilus.png)
Difficult: 2/5![[image loading]](http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1892/93307236.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/559/58923803.jpg)
