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[Champion] Diana - Page 5

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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YouGotNothin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States907 Posts
March 05 2013 22:06 GMT
#81
I have been really liking a build I saw xpeke use in the LCS (forget which game). It is for mid-Diana and went something like flask -> 2 drings -> boots -> sheen -> boots 2 -> Lich Bane. When you get that Lich Bane your full combo burst is pretty insane.
I got nothin'...
LeeDawg
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1306 Posts
March 06 2013 00:01 GMT
#82
just picked up diana, after a recent decision to try out midlane. I've been having some success with assassins, but with diana, man, I just seem to carry every game I play. feels good. I've been trying going chalice->grail first as my MR item instead of abyssal, since at my embarrassing elo, junglers basically never give up blue, even if they don't use mana. it's a 10 AP, 5 MR drop off, but i think the cdr and mana regen are worth it.
:-)
Wetty
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia419 Posts
March 06 2013 05:48 GMT
#83
On March 06 2013 07:06 YouGotNothin wrote:
I have been really liking a build I saw xpeke use in the LCS (forget which game). It is for mid-Diana and went something like flask -> 2 drings -> boots -> sheen -> boots 2 -> Lich Bane. When you get that Lich Bane your full combo burst is pretty insane.


Something to think about - Lichbane isnt particularly good until you start to get a significant amount of AP. Sitting on a sheen in building your next AP item first (probably Deathcap) provides better damage. This means that you need to value the movement speed fairly highly to make picking lichbane first a good idea. Movespeed is great, but Diana has great gap closing and a slow/displacement so it may be a good idea to explore some other options.

So, after following the math out that was supposed to support my above opinion, turns out lichbane first is better in damage at both of the critical points in build paths. I'd seen the math for the old lichbane, which dealt physical damage and didn't have a base amount.

So, doing that was an interesting experience for me, because I've totally discovered that Lichbane first is significantly more legit than what it used to be (pre S3) due to magical compared to physical, better cost effiency towards damage and the base magical damage added to the proc so it doesn't need such a heavy amount of AP to break even with sheen.

Conclusion: more damage, movement speed and a sneaky amount of extra damage going lichbane -> NLR compared to sheen -> deathcap. Fantastic. Lichbane for life?

+ Show Spoiler [some math] +
assuming level 12, Diana has 81 damage, which is the amount that sheen will add to her auto attack. Lets say Caitlyn is who you're diving. Her Armour (assuming she is also level 12, although she is probably lower) will be 51.5 base + 13 from runes (flat armour yellows) totaling 64.5. Her magic resist will be 30 + 12 from runes (flat MR) totaling 42. The gold difference between Sheen and Lichbane is 1740, so you can realisticly have a Needlessly Large Rod and sheen, where you would otherwise have Lichbane. NLR is 80AP, 2 Doran's is another 30, and sheen offers you 25AP and 200 mana. With NLR + Sheen, you have 25 more AP, but 50 less mana and 5% less movement speed.

Runes: Assuming flat AP quints, MPen reds (This favours lichbane the most)
Masteries: Assuming blast (+18AP at 18), Arcane knowledge (8% pen), mental force (+6AP) and archmage (+5% AP)

total: AP: ((4.95*3) + 12 + 6) * 1.05 = 34.5

Assuming max Q and 2 ranks in R at level 12, and that you just Q -> R auto:

Sheen + NLR:
Sheen adds 81 * (100 / (100 + 64.5)) = 49.2
AP difference adds ((25 * 1.05) * (0.7+0.6)) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 28.5
Total: 49.2 + 28.5 = 77.7 additional damage from items.

Lichbane:
total AP * 1.25 + 50:
((34.5 + ((30 + 80)*1.05))*0.75 + 50) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 135.6
Total: 135.6 additional damage from lichbane.

If we look at Diana's full combo:
Q W R R Passive her ratio goes to (0.6 + 0.7 + 0.6 + 0.6 + 0.6) = 3.1

Recalculating the AP difference for Sheen + NLR:
((25 * 1.05) * 3.1) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 67.9
Total: 67.9 + 49.2 = 117.1


The second major part to this problem is the deathcap timing. From a NLR, a deathcap costs an additional 1700g. So, a player going Lichbane -> Deathcap can realistically be at Lichbane + NLR where a sheen -> Deathcap player will have this complete. At this stage:

Lichbane:
total AP * 1.25 + 50:
((34.5 + ((30 + 80 + 80)*1.05))*0.75 + 50) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 188.23
Total: 188.23 additional damage from lichbane.

Sheen + deathcap:
total: additional AP * spell ratios + sheen damage:
Deathcap AP - Lich AP * ratios * MR:
(((32.85 + 30 + 25 + 120)*1.35)- (34.5 + ((30 + 80 + 80)*1.05))) * 3.7 * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 120.6
Sheen damage:
81 * (100 / (100 + 64.5)) = 49.2
Total: 120.6 + 49.2 = 169.8

Conclusion: When you first get a lichbane, the proc does significantly more damage than if you were going sheen -> deathcap. When you first hit your deathcap, someone who is going lichbane -> deathcap will still be doing more damage than the person who rushed deathcap after a sheen and if you proc lichbane more than once in a fight you start to jump way ahead. Also ahead if you can't land all hits of your shield or your passive, as this would reduce the AP ratio of the deathcap diana further.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
March 06 2013 16:22 GMT
#84
Lichbane as an early item has become a better choice also because with S3 it has a base damage instead of being based purely off your AP (although its scaling has been reduced).
h3r1n6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Iceland2039 Posts
March 07 2013 16:58 GMT
#85
Well, I just tried Lichbane first and it seemed really good, much better than rushing DFG.

Apart from the burst/sustained damage, movespeed is obviously nice to have and I found the bigger manapool quite helpful too. I'm not very used to spacing out spells properly to maximize proccs. Need to play with it a bit more, but it'll probably end up as my go-to damage item.
DaBears57
Profile Joined December 2009
United States300 Posts
March 09 2013 18:59 GMT
#86
Is it ever worthwhile to get rylais or is better to either buy more AP so your shield makes you tankier or buy warmogs? Do you ever buy health or do just rely on zhonyas to survive?
Bladeorade
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1898 Posts
March 09 2013 19:03 GMT
#87
I dont know if Rylais is a great item since she has good sticking power anyway, I would probably build Warmogs if you want health but AP+ resistances are always the best option on her since her shield scales with both.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-28 12:53:13
March 28 2013 12:52 GMT
#88
Is Guise now an after thought unless you're stomping pretty hard and have enough for it on first back instead of picking up rings?
divinesage
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore649 Posts
March 28 2013 18:54 GMT
#89
I would believe Diana scales much better early on with AP over magic pen due to her passive. 2 Doran's Rings is probably better compared to a Haunting Guide.
JSH
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4109 Posts
March 28 2013 20:06 GMT
#90
Double Doran deathcap whee
"It's called a miracle because it doesn't happen" - Just like my chances of reaching C- on ICCUP
Myrick
Profile Joined March 2013
26 Posts
March 31 2013 08:49 GMT
#91
With the cost increase to Nashor's I've been trying out a bunch of different builds and I really like the tried and true Abyssal->Hourglass combo. After that you can go Cap, Lichbane, DFG, Nashor's, Warmogs, Rylai's, Liandry's, Void, Randuin's, GA, or even some off the wall stuff like Twin Shadows and Spectral Wraith can be really good. I like to go Nashor's if we're going for lategame because it gives huge damage through the CDR, AS and AP and it makes your farm godlike. DFG is really really good if they have a fed jungler or top lane that's really hard to kill. You can DFG+Q+W+R+R and do 80% of basically anyone, then just zhonyas and wait for Q+W to be back up. Lichbane and Cap give more sustained damage and shield, Warmogs is a great defensive item, and I prefer it over Rylai's. The slow isn't too necessary. Liandry's can be good too but because Haunting Guise has the most value midgame and it delays your core quite a bit I tend not to get it. Void is obviously good if they'r stacking MR, and Randuin's and GA are great for dealing with fed ADCs lategame. I also really like treads on Diana against CC reliant mids. They make dueling Kassadin, Ryze and Ahri midgame really easy.

I also really like to do a jungle camp with W and a health pot lvl 1 because laning as lvl 1 Diana can be really brutal. Top lane builds are pretty much the same but I've been experimenting with tank Diana builds and relying on base damages and passive to do sustained dps. That route seems to really need a Nashor, though. And after this patch I'm not sure that is good because fighting bruisers top that have 2.4k gold into items can be really hard if all you've got is Tooth and a Doran or two.
myricklol.blogspot.com League Analysis Blog
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-01 08:28:52
April 01 2013 08:24 GMT
#92
Cool trick with Lich Bane on Diana (mainly for objectives) is if you hit something with q, you have enough time to allow Bane to reset before you ult and still have the moonlight debuff on them. As long as you got mana, you tear down objectives/towers/whatever. Also lich bane can stack with your passive for tons of damage. The extra mana also helps here as you can keep your combos going for proc after proc.

I don't understand why it's not used on Diana, it's an amazing item on her and makes her damage absurd, and still works great with standard Diana builds.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-01 08:46:12
April 01 2013 08:30 GMT
#93
On April 01 2013 17:24 Diamond wrote:
Cool trick with Lich Bane on Diana (mainly for objectives) is if you hit something with q, you have enough time to allow Bane to reset before you ult and still have the moonlight debuff on them. As long as you got mana, you tear down objectives/towers/whatever. Also lich bane can stack with your passive for tons of damage. The extra mana also helps here as you can keep your combos going for proc after proc.

I don't understand why it's not used on Diana, it's an amazing item on her and makes her damage absurd, and still works great with standard Diana builds.

I always got the impression that she ends up being not durable enough unless it's a lategame item. She doesn't have the combo of hard CC + range autos TF does, for example. If only because he's the only champ I remember people buying LB on recently.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
April 01 2013 09:13 GMT
#94
People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
April 01 2013 10:28 GMT
#95
On April 01 2013 18:13 sob3k wrote:
People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield.

Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
April 01 2013 10:49 GMT
#96
On April 01 2013 19:28 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2013 18:13 sob3k wrote:
People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield.

Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement.


hes not significantly more mobile or more durable than Diana
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
April 01 2013 11:53 GMT
#97
On April 01 2013 19:49 sob3k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2013 19:28 Gahlo wrote:
On April 01 2013 18:13 sob3k wrote:
People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield.

Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement.


hes not significantly more mobile or more durable than Diana

Diana is only mobile to, Fizz is free form.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
April 01 2013 12:21 GMT
#98
On April 01 2013 20:53 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2013 19:49 sob3k wrote:
On April 01 2013 19:28 Gahlo wrote:
On April 01 2013 18:13 sob3k wrote:
People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield.

Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement.


hes not significantly more mobile or more durable than Diana

Diana is only mobile to, Fizz is free form.


Sure, and Diana can cross large walls with no vision and burst dash farther, Fizz can't etc etc

the point is that they, despite slightly different mechanics, end up jumping around bursting people. If you calculate their full burst its very similar.... and they both have a single defensive skill attribute which are honestly pretty comparable (.75 seconds invulnerability vs 2x 5sec155+0.45ap shields) on very similar CD.

there is no reason that Lichbane should be core on Fizz but never built on Diana ever, his synergy with it is barely more than hers.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
April 01 2013 12:49 GMT
#99
On April 01 2013 21:21 sob3k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2013 20:53 Gahlo wrote:
On April 01 2013 19:49 sob3k wrote:
On April 01 2013 19:28 Gahlo wrote:
On April 01 2013 18:13 sob3k wrote:
People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield.

Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement.


hes not significantly more mobile or more durable than Diana

Diana is only mobile to, Fizz is free form.


Sure, and Diana can cross large walls with no vision and burst dash farther, Fizz can't etc etc

the point is that they, despite slightly different mechanics, end up jumping around bursting people. If you calculate their full burst its very similar.... and they both have a single defensive skill attribute which are honestly pretty comparable (.75 seconds invulnerability vs 2x 5sec155+0.45ap shields) on very similar CD.

there is no reason that Lichbane should be core on Fizz but never built on Diana ever, his synergy with it is barely more than hers.

I never said never.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
April 01 2013 13:24 GMT
#100
On April 01 2013 21:21 sob3k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2013 20:53 Gahlo wrote:
On April 01 2013 19:49 sob3k wrote:
On April 01 2013 19:28 Gahlo wrote:
On April 01 2013 18:13 sob3k wrote:
People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield.

Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement.


hes not significantly more mobile or more durable than Diana

Diana is only mobile to, Fizz is free form.


Sure, and Diana can cross large walls with no vision and burst dash farther, Fizz can't etc etc

the point is that they, despite slightly different mechanics, end up jumping around bursting people. If you calculate their full burst its very similar.... and they both have a single defensive skill attribute which are honestly pretty comparable (.75 seconds invulnerability vs 2x 5sec155+0.45ap shields) on very similar CD.

there is no reason that Lichbane should be core on Fizz but never built on Diana ever, his synergy with it is barely more than hers.

I don't know why you're saying barely, Having one of your primary nukes apply on-hit effects is a pretty noticable reason to auto-buy sheen. Also, yes, Fizz has noticably more mobility than Diana. Fizz can charge in, then also bounce out, because he has two mobility moves. Diana can only charge in.

Lichbane Diana is quite, quite good, but I don't know why you'd bring up fizz and be like "Diana is the same in XYZ categories" when she really isn't. It weakens your argument.

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