[Champion] Diana - Page 5
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YouGotNothin
United States907 Posts
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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Wetty
Australia419 Posts
On March 06 2013 07:06 YouGotNothin wrote: I have been really liking a build I saw xpeke use in the LCS (forget which game). It is for mid-Diana and went something like flask -> 2 drings -> boots -> sheen -> boots 2 -> Lich Bane. When you get that Lich Bane your full combo burst is pretty insane. So, after following the math out that was supposed to support my above opinion, turns out lichbane first is better in damage at both of the critical points in build paths. I'd seen the math for the old lichbane, which dealt physical damage and didn't have a base amount. So, doing that was an interesting experience for me, because I've totally discovered that Lichbane first is significantly more legit than what it used to be (pre S3) due to magical compared to physical, better cost effiency towards damage and the base magical damage added to the proc so it doesn't need such a heavy amount of AP to break even with sheen. Conclusion: more damage, movement speed and a sneaky amount of extra damage going lichbane -> NLR compared to sheen -> deathcap. Fantastic. Lichbane for life? + Show Spoiler [some math] + assuming level 12, Diana has 81 damage, which is the amount that sheen will add to her auto attack. Lets say Caitlyn is who you're diving. Her Armour (assuming she is also level 12, although she is probably lower) will be 51.5 base + 13 from runes (flat armour yellows) totaling 64.5. Her magic resist will be 30 + 12 from runes (flat MR) totaling 42. The gold difference between Sheen and Lichbane is 1740, so you can realisticly have a Needlessly Large Rod and sheen, where you would otherwise have Lichbane. NLR is 80AP, 2 Doran's is another 30, and sheen offers you 25AP and 200 mana. With NLR + Sheen, you have 25 more AP, but 50 less mana and 5% less movement speed. Runes: Assuming flat AP quints, MPen reds (This favours lichbane the most) Masteries: Assuming blast (+18AP at 18), Arcane knowledge (8% pen), mental force (+6AP) and archmage (+5% AP) total: AP: ((4.95*3) + 12 + 6) * 1.05 = 34.5 Assuming max Q and 2 ranks in R at level 12, and that you just Q -> R auto: Sheen + NLR: Sheen adds 81 * (100 / (100 + 64.5)) = 49.2 AP difference adds ((25 * 1.05) * (0.7+0.6)) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 28.5 Total: 49.2 + 28.5 = 77.7 additional damage from items. Lichbane: total AP * 1.25 + 50: ((34.5 + ((30 + 80)*1.05))*0.75 + 50) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 135.6 Total: 135.6 additional damage from lichbane. If we look at Diana's full combo: Q W R R Passive her ratio goes to (0.6 + 0.7 + 0.6 + 0.6 + 0.6) = 3.1 Recalculating the AP difference for Sheen + NLR: ((25 * 1.05) * 3.1) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 67.9 Total: 67.9 + 49.2 = 117.1 The second major part to this problem is the deathcap timing. From a NLR, a deathcap costs an additional 1700g. So, a player going Lichbane -> Deathcap can realistically be at Lichbane + NLR where a sheen -> Deathcap player will have this complete. At this stage: Lichbane: total AP * 1.25 + 50: ((34.5 + ((30 + 80 + 80)*1.05))*0.75 + 50) * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 188.23 Total: 188.23 additional damage from lichbane. Sheen + deathcap: total: additional AP * spell ratios + sheen damage: Deathcap AP - Lich AP * ratios * MR: (((32.85 + 30 + 25 + 120)*1.35)- (34.5 + ((30 + 80 + 80)*1.05))) * 3.7 * (100 / (100 + ((30*0.92) - 7.8))) = 120.6 Sheen damage: 81 * (100 / (100 + 64.5)) = 49.2 Total: 120.6 + 49.2 = 169.8 Conclusion: When you first get a lichbane, the proc does significantly more damage than if you were going sheen -> deathcap. When you first hit your deathcap, someone who is going lichbane -> deathcap will still be doing more damage than the person who rushed deathcap after a sheen and if you proc lichbane more than once in a fight you start to jump way ahead. Also ahead if you can't land all hits of your shield or your passive, as this would reduce the AP ratio of the deathcap diana further. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
Apart from the burst/sustained damage, movespeed is obviously nice to have and I found the bigger manapool quite helpful too. I'm not very used to spacing out spells properly to maximize proccs. Need to play with it a bit more, but it'll probably end up as my go-to damage item. | ||
DaBears57
United States300 Posts
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35127 Posts
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divinesage
Singapore649 Posts
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
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Myrick
26 Posts
I also really like to do a jungle camp with W and a health pot lvl 1 because laning as lvl 1 Diana can be really brutal. Top lane builds are pretty much the same but I've been experimenting with tank Diana builds and relying on base damages and passive to do sustained dps. That route seems to really need a Nashor, though. And after this patch I'm not sure that is good because fighting bruisers top that have 2.4k gold into items can be really hard if all you've got is Tooth and a Doran or two. | ||
Diamond
United States10796 Posts
I don't understand why it's not used on Diana, it's an amazing item on her and makes her damage absurd, and still works great with standard Diana builds. | ||
Gahlo
United States35127 Posts
On April 01 2013 17:24 Diamond wrote: Cool trick with Lich Bane on Diana (mainly for objectives) is if you hit something with q, you have enough time to allow Bane to reset before you ult and still have the moonlight debuff on them. As long as you got mana, you tear down objectives/towers/whatever. Also lich bane can stack with your passive for tons of damage. The extra mana also helps here as you can keep your combos going for proc after proc. I don't understand why it's not used on Diana, it's an amazing item on her and makes her damage absurd, and still works great with standard Diana builds. I always got the impression that she ends up being not durable enough unless it's a lategame item. She doesn't have the combo of hard CC + range autos TF does, for example. If only because he's the only champ I remember people buying LB on recently. | ||
sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35127 Posts
On April 01 2013 18:13 sob3k wrote: People buy it on Fizz and he has only trollpole to keep himself alive, Diana has AP scaling shield. Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement. | ||
sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 01 2013 19:28 Gahlo wrote: Trollpole is also a zhonya with freeflowing movement. hes not significantly more mobile or more durable than Diana | ||
Gahlo
United States35127 Posts
On April 01 2013 19:49 sob3k wrote: hes not significantly more mobile or more durable than Diana Diana is only mobile to, Fizz is free form. | ||
sob3k
United States7572 Posts
Sure, and Diana can cross large walls with no vision and burst dash farther, Fizz can't etc etc the point is that they, despite slightly different mechanics, end up jumping around bursting people. If you calculate their full burst its very similar.... and they both have a single defensive skill attribute which are honestly pretty comparable (.75 seconds invulnerability vs 2x 5sec155+0.45ap shields) on very similar CD. there is no reason that Lichbane should be core on Fizz but never built on Diana ever, his synergy with it is barely more than hers. | ||
Gahlo
United States35127 Posts
On April 01 2013 21:21 sob3k wrote: Sure, and Diana can cross large walls with no vision and burst dash farther, Fizz can't etc etc the point is that they, despite slightly different mechanics, end up jumping around bursting people. If you calculate their full burst its very similar.... and they both have a single defensive skill attribute which are honestly pretty comparable (.75 seconds invulnerability vs 2x 5sec155+0.45ap shields) on very similar CD. there is no reason that Lichbane should be core on Fizz but never built on Diana ever, his synergy with it is barely more than hers. I never said never. | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 01 2013 21:21 sob3k wrote: Sure, and Diana can cross large walls with no vision and burst dash farther, Fizz can't etc etc the point is that they, despite slightly different mechanics, end up jumping around bursting people. If you calculate their full burst its very similar.... and they both have a single defensive skill attribute which are honestly pretty comparable (.75 seconds invulnerability vs 2x 5sec155+0.45ap shields) on very similar CD. there is no reason that Lichbane should be core on Fizz but never built on Diana ever, his synergy with it is barely more than hers. I don't know why you're saying barely, Having one of your primary nukes apply on-hit effects is a pretty noticable reason to auto-buy sheen. Also, yes, Fizz has noticably more mobility than Diana. Fizz can charge in, then also bounce out, because he has two mobility moves. Diana can only charge in. Lichbane Diana is quite, quite good, but I don't know why you'd bring up fizz and be like "Diana is the same in XYZ categories" when she really isn't. It weakens your argument. | ||
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