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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
It's a terrible match up for Diana. Diana can't punish Vlad's weak early game because her pre-6 is also very bad; after 6 Vlad wins simply by attrition - barring AP ratio, Vlad's Q basically does the same damage as Diana's Q, except Vlad's Q also heals and has lower CD. Another very bad match up for Diana is Swain IMO. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 28 2012 03:58 Bladeorade wrote: I think Diana can beat swain with jungle help. She has the type of kit Swain hates post 6. Multiple gap closers with high burst. As long as Diana gets help early Swain can't stand up to her. But pre 6 Swain shits on her with EQ and autos so it is really jungler dependent. Any match up is winnable with jungle support; without it it's just a nightmare. Pre-6 is a total nightmare for Diana. After 6 it's not that much better, because poking him doesn't do much (he will sustain back) and Diana can't all-in him because she will die. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
On October 28 2012 04:04 Sufficiency wrote: Any match up is winnable with jungle support; without it it's just a nightmare. Pre-6 is a total nightmare for Diana. After 6 it's not that much better, because poking him doesn't do much (he will sustain back) and Diana can't all-in him because she will die. Poking does do much, and Diana can wave clear far more easily than Swain. Also I disagree she CAN all in him fairly easily without dying. She does such high burst his healing is almost moot combined with ignite. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
Boots 3 start and farm as long as you can, if you have to go back early pick up ruby crystal first for Haunting Guise. After Guise I generally get Sorcs and then Abyssal. After I have Sorcs and Guise I aim for a gank bottom and depending on the CC on my bot laners (Leona/Sona = Double Kill) can generally get 1 or 2 kills and a dragon. I go Negatron first for Abyssal. After Abyssal I start just pushing wave and roaming taking their jungle and warding while keeping ganks up bot lane. Because of her ults lack of cooldown you can just constantly push and gank like Kat but with more damage pre resets and with an OP CC. After Abyssal I get Chain Vest unless I am way ahead in which case I will go NLR first and the finish Zhonyas. At this point you should be pressuring Baron hopefully bot tower is already down because you camped the shit out of them. After Zhonyas I get GA at which point you are very tanky and still able to do a ton of damage. If the game goes long enough I follow up with Deathcap. edit to add some things: The reason another part of the reason I really like this build is you really hit your mid game HARD. Squishies don't have MRES yet so you deal true damage, and even if they buy a negatron you have 70 mpen/reduc combined so its likely still true damage. Between Guise and Abyssal and Chain Vest you gain a lot of EHP. You get a good amount of resists and her base HP is very high combined with her shield which also scales from resists. This allows you to be deceptively tanky and in my opinion is simply a necessity. You are the AP carry on your team and you are melee. If you aren't building somewhat tanky you are dead or so far ahead you 1 shot everyone. As another note when your GA is down I like getting Rylais and if you get to the point where you sold your GA after it procced for a Rylais you should also consider selling Guise for Void Staff but that is super late game. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
I wish I could talk to him and see why he goes 2 dorans over HG xD I really think HG is stronger than 2 dorans | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On November 14 2012 00:41 Bladeorade wrote: Cant remember the AP's name from Azubu Blaze but apparently in the IPL5 Korean Qualifier Grand Finals he goes sorcs 2 dorans Zhonyas Abyssal GA I wish I could talk to him and see why he goes 2 dorans over HG xD I really think HG is stronger than 2 dorans I don't actually think pros always go for the best build. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On November 14 2012 01:12 Sufficiency wrote: I don't actually think pros always go for the best build. The pros probably have a better understanding of what the best build is. Also, a best build in Pro levels could be different from the best build in different elo levels. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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Glyceroll
United States4 Posts
I wish I could talk to him and see why he goes 2 dorans over HG xD I really think HG is stronger than 2 dorans Here's my crappy logic about two dorans being better: For one, the cost is significantly less for roughly the same amount of stats 1485g vs 950g for an early game item that you're going to have to sell later on because it doesn't build into anything and is just overall a "meh" item. The mana regen also is a tremendous help to Diana in lane/roaming, especially considering her spells cost relatively low mana compared to most mids like Orianna and Morgana. The penetration will help you overall do a little more damage early on, but ~500g is a lot of gold that could go to something else. Her base damage is also significant enough to not even need the extra mpen. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 28 2012 05:06 Bladeorade wrote: Poking does do much, and Diana can wave clear far more easily than Swain. Also I disagree she CAN all in him fairly easily without dying. She does such high burst his healing is almost moot combined with ignite. The entire laning phase swain is going to be harassing you with E/Q and auto attacks, unless you come back to lane and immediately all in you're not going to be going in with full hp, and he's gonna kill you when you eat a full q snare e and ignite + bird power + auto attacks. i think diana vs swain without serious jungle help is unwinnable tbh | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
I understand Kat doesn't use mana so the mp5 is useless on her so Drings make no sense but it's nice to see it being used in a pro match even if not on the champion I use it on HUE | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
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c.Deadly
United States545 Posts
On December 02 2012 02:34 NEOtheONE wrote: Honestly, I don't understand why people insist on going mid with Diana. I have far more success going jungle with her. As soon as you take your E you can set up some really nice ganks. And if I have to buy a GP/5 item it's usually Philo Stone. Abyssal and Frozen Heart are both great on her. I'm a big fan of catalyst -> RoA on her because ganking when you are about to level makes the passive very worth it, shame they are nerfing the HP portion, again. Diana is definitely stronger in lane, you should try playing her mid more before making conclusions. Her E is strong for ganks, but imagine if you pair it with a jungler with CC like Maokai, Cho'Gath, or Amumu? It's the perfect setup tool. Also I'd advise against RoA on Diana, since AP (somewhat) translates to HP for her because of her shield, you want to build resists to maximize her EHP. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
As for lane Diana, I feel like she is a pretty strong mid in general. If she lands her Q on the enemy champ fairly consistently, I think she can hang in there with most mids. CC-heavy champs will fuck her up, though. She just has to survive until she hits 6 and builds some MR. Once she gets to that point, she's golden. Her roaming ganks are brutal. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On December 02 2012 03:36 clickrush wrote: diana has so many bad matchups mid. I have been playing malz recently alot and I don't see anything diana can do vs that champ for example. Same goes for swain, akali, morgana and prolly a few others as well. There are tons of champions right now who either just straight up deal more damage, are too tanky to get 1 shot or just have the utility/poke to make her laneing a nightmare. She has also good matchups but I allways shiver a bit when someone firstpicks diana. you don't pick kat/kassadin etc for the same reason in soloq. Those kind of champs need serious support from the jungle or make a huge play at some early skirmish if they are in a hard lane or they wont be relevant during mid/lategame. Diana is a super risky pick and should be treated as such. If someone is an experienced mid and diana player he can still carry games which goes without saying. But in a more general sense I think she is picked that often because people just have fun playing her and not because of her carrying power and lane presence. Akali and Morgana don't win lane against Diana. Neither can Malzahar because he will instantly die unless he has ultimate (but even with it he can't kill Diana in one combo). I think the best lane counter against Diana right now are Swain, Vladimir, and Ryze. Karthus is also an option if you are willing to tax your other lanes and just farm. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
On December 02 2012 02:34 NEOtheONE wrote: Honestly, I don't understand why people insist on going mid with Diana. I have far more success going jungle with her. As soon as you take your E you can set up some really nice ganks. And if I have to buy a GP/5 item it's usually Philo Stone. Abyssal and Frozen Heart are both great on her. I'm a big fan of catalyst -> RoA on her because ganking when you are about to level makes the passive very worth it, shame they are nerfing the HP portion, again. Because she needs a lot of farm and the jungle doesn't have enough. I also have success jungling Diana but it takes longer to get going unless you get a lot of ganks off. Also why would you get Philo? She doesnt have mana problems and shurelyas is crap on her. I go Kages into Sorcs into Guise. Start working on Abyssal but sometimes I just go Negatron -> Chain Vest for more tankiness. RoA is crap on her. She doesnt need health or mana and it costs so much for so little gain. She needs resists and AP which is why Abyssal and Zhonyas are considered her core. On December 02 2012 03:36 clickrush wrote: diana has so many bad matchups mid. I have been playing malz recently alot and I don't see anything diana can do vs that champ for example. Same goes for swain, akali, morgana and prolly a few others as well. There are tons of champions right now who either just straight up deal more damage, are too tanky to get 1 shot or just have the utility/poke to make her laneing a nightmare. She has also good matchups but I allways shiver a bit when someone firstpicks diana. you don't pick kat/kassadin etc for the same reason in soloq. Those kind of champs need serious support from the jungle or make a huge play at some early skirmish if they are in a hard lane or they wont be relevant during mid/lategame. Diana is a super risky pick and should be treated as such. If someone is an experienced mid and diana player he can still carry games which goes without saying. But in a more general sense I think she is picked that often because people just have fun playing her and not because of her carrying power and lane presence. Malzahar can't do anything even when he hits 6. Diana harasses with Q and then can decide to all in. QWRER with ignite ticking will kill him and the Malz will likely try to ult you right away which will cancel with your E even if his ults starts. I have done this a bunch of times, seems very infuriating for a Malz player. Swain is strong against her but he isn't mobile and cant push hard enough to punish her. Diana roams and wins game. Diana Q reveals units so... Akali is not a great pick. Not sure how Akali would counter her but I haven't had to play this matchup much so I don't want to say anything for certain. Morgana is laughable. You push harder than her, she can't punish you pre 6 unless you can't dodge Q's, and once you hit 6 just push and roam. You will be way ahead of Morg. Sure you can fuck up if you try to 1v1 Morg because of her ult, so just don't. Vlad does okay but he has to be able to carry if your roaming and he is farming, Swain picks after I pick Diana I usually just switch to jungling or I play passive until jungler comes to gank since he is so easy to gank and Diana has high damage. To be honest I play Kassadin as my counter pick to Diana. He fucks her up so hard. He gets free farm, early levels his W is stronger than her passive and his Q destroys her ability to trade while he can just dash away, or into her. He just has so many options against her and a Kass with free farm does very well, his issue is just getting the farm. He is also just as good at supporting ganks as Diana while being harder to gank than her. Never faced Ryze, In theory that sounds like a good matchup for him until 6. But I can't see him dealing with her after 6 and he cannot push well at all. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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