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On September 19 2012 02:03 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 00:56 Alaric wrote:On September 18 2012 09:35 Perplex wrote:On September 18 2012 09:17 Alzadar wrote:
So I'm holding off on buying Jayce because I expect him to be nerfed and/or perma-banned in the near future, but in the time being I'm getting lots of experience laning against him.
My best match-ups so far have been with Jax and Swain.
Jax works because Leap Strike's cooldown is a bit lower than Thundering Blow, meaning you can WQauto (with R proc if you pre-hit a minion), get knocked away (if he doesn't knock you away then you'll outtrade him easy, just start Counter-Strike if he uses Hyper-Charge. As soon as Leap Strike cools you can jump on him again and for sure get in a full round of autos. Most Jayces will learn to back away at this point, but that just means you can farm safely and be much stronger late game.
Swain is much easier, just don't eat his speed Qs in the face and throw Torments at him on CD. He can't jump you because you'll fuck him up instantly and he can't harass safely (except with ranged Q) without being at risk of a WEQR combo.
Thoughts from the Jayce perspective? Irelia and Jax both win if played properly in my experience. Mind sharing said experience? I still have no idea how to play Irelia against him, his disengage is simply too good and it's very hard to force prolonged trades against him, which is were Jax and Irelia would destroy him. Really curious about Jax too, he's stronger than Irelia in burst and committed fights post-6, but since his jump doesn't reset I'm not sure how you should be able to reach him if he's in cannon form. the thing about jayce vs irelia in the early game is that whoever engages first, loses. If irelia goes onto jayce, jayce hammer + auto + q + e's you away, and you will lose the trade. If jayce goes onto irelia, irelia q's back the distance lost from jayce e, eq strike will prob stun, since you just got chunked, and then you get to smack jayce for a couple of seconds with true dmg until jayce can ranged-form + e out, and jayce loses the trade. ofc, this is assuming good play on both sides, and irelia also has a lvl 2 vulnerability that she has to watch out for, where jayce can pound on her with no consequences. Later on in the game, irelia's innate and itemized tankiness + truedmg and aspeed means that irelia will, most likely, beat jayce in a 1v1 vaccum. This completely ignores jayce's team-utility ofc, which I think is much higher than irelia's, but it can be argued both ways as to which one you want late game.
I noticed that if Jayce runs as soon as he Es you, the time it takes for you to be knocked back will allow him to get out of your Q range, so it depends on positioning too.
How would you itemize? His E deals magic damage, and his auto/Q harass is physical, plus you need MS if you ever want to catch him, so... I guess armor quints, boots+3 start, and go for phage+MR (wit's)? Early tabi if needed.
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So what item builds have you guys been using? I've played a few games of normal and a game of ranked going:
dblade -> dblade -> boots (usually merc treads unless heavy ad top is crushing me) -> BT -> LW -> GA
with pots/wards as necessary in between.
It works well but I was kinda stuck after buying all of that. I don't know what I should theoretically get next
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I agree that you can't engage first as irelia - If Irelia is ever going to engage on Jayce first, she needs to do it by Qing onto a near-dead minion, so that she can jump back on Jayce after getting knocked back. Doing it any other way just gets you kicked off of him with only 1 or 2 W autos. If you can jump back onto him while your W is still up, you'll win the trade by a longshot. I've never been knocked back in such a way that I couldn't Q back onto him as long as my Q was up, but I'm willing to believe that it would work like that if the Jayce player animation cancels their [long ass] E animation in the way you describe.
Against Jayce I run with armor quints. Most of the damage you're going to take in lane is ranged auto harass, and even in serious trades it's going to be . His E (and technically his switch-to-melee single auto bonus... but that's like barely any damage and some Jayces don't evel level R) is his only magic damage, and it's on a longish CD, plus he's not building any magic pen. Flat MR glyphs + irelia's baseline should be enough for his E (already knocks it down to only 12% Max HP by the time you're both level 9)
I don't even feel strongly about Wit's end vs Jayce... it depends on the rest of the teamcomp whether wits is useful. Phage -> triforce + tank items (significantly favoring armor items, like Randuins or GA) goes a long way to letting you trade properly with a mid-game Jayce as well as be relevant in midgame teamfights. Mercs is likely my only magic resist i'll have during lane phase, unless the enemy team lets me build tabi - in which case I'd agree wit's is great.
Did I mention that if Jayce uses his ranged W on you, he'll probably be snagged by warden's mail in the process? Wardens mail sleeper.
All that said, I still have a hard time against a good Jayce, and even if you can draw the lane even, Jayce's late game is scary because he pretends to be an AD carry in teamfights.
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Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
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On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
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On September 19 2012 20:23 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on) I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
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On September 19 2012 21:41 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 20:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on) I literally haven't noticed they were live yet. If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
You DO need to max E first though...
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A while a WoDx was doing CDR tank build with jayce, (mostly out of necessity, because his team was really squishy). I posted it GD, it went something like boots3pot, philo, hog, shurelya's. But he ended getting fed on top lane with just gp10 items against enemy irelia, and then went BT+Triforce+GA, but I was thinking what happens if you continue that build trend of cdr tank? It'd probably be something like shurelya's, randuins, aotl, and what else?
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Randuin's doesn't give CDR if you're going for that, get FH instead. The only other CDR item I could see being useful on him is... maaaaybe Zeke's?
I dunno why you'd do any of that anyway. If you really want to play tanky Jayce, FMallet and GA is probably the best core, and then situational from there. CDR is great on him, but there's not enough items to make a build out of it,
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Randuins gives like 5% cdr. And if I remember correctly he had built Ionian boots on jayce. so totaling out to 35% CDR, then 4% from masteries~
Shurelya's pretty good on him imo. With Fmallet seems to be over kill on HP along w/ shurelya's. Not to mention he does have strong gap closer. Speed boosts + dunkign mechanics makes Randuins a great pick. Why would you get GA on a utility build? not worth it? also considering how cheap tanky utility items are, this is possibly a decent build for games where you lost your lane terribly (though I don't really see how you could lose lane that badly, as Jayce).
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Huh, there is. Never noticed.
You want HP over resists because you get free resists from being in hammer stance, so FM is one of the premier defensive items on him, in my opinion.
Still, seems like a silly build. Why do you need Shurelya sprint when you have stance change, Gate, and To The Skies? Why do you realistically need Randuins when you have strong sticking power and an AoE slow in the first place? Why are you building utility on a champion that is primarily there to be a damage dealer? If you lost your lane as Jayce (as you said, unlikely in the first place), I don't think the best thing to do is bring another speed boost on the one you already have, I think it's to farm (which you can do quickly and easily) and catch back up, not buy support items and pray your AD can pick up your slack.
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Well the idea of utility tank is more for the sense that your team needs one in solo queue. WoDx was using it just because his team was pretty squishy otherwise. He may still get free resists, but you can make same arguement on Shyvanna, she still build Randuins fairly often. Shurelyas + Randuins is like 600hp, that's a lot. along with 75 armor, that's really strong.
Also with a gap closer (his hammer stance Q), randuins is particularly effective, the activate can almost always hit everyone in teamfights.
Its more of an alternative build.
Also it's unfair to match Bruiser/dmg jayce with utility tank jayce, 2 different roles.
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On September 20 2012 03:21 Requizen wrote:
Huh, there is. Never noticed.
You want HP over resists because you get free resists from being in hammer stance, so FM is one of the premier defensive items on him, in my opinion.
Still, seems like a silly build. Why do you need Shurelya sprint when you have stance change, Gate, and To The Skies? Why do you realistically need Randuins when you have strong sticking power and an AoE slow in the first place? Why are you building utility on a champion that is primarily there to be a damage dealer? If you lost your lane as Jayce (as you said, unlikely in the first place), I don't think the best thing to do is bring another speed boost on the one you already have, I think it's to farm (which you can do quickly and easily) and catch back up, not buy support items and pray your AD can pick up your slack.
Ugh. You don't really want HP over resists THAT badly. The "free resists" you get from Hammer Stance only roughly match up to what most melee characters get baseline. Level 18 jayce has 50 MR in hammer stance baseline... about the same as what most melees have from their natural MR scaling. He has 95 armor... BARELY edging out the upper ends of the armor line, but hardly anything to write home about. Shyvana (one who DOES follow this 'buy hp get free resists' a bit better) gets more armor, especially since she's going to teamfight in dragon form and double her +20 bonus resists to +40.
That said, I do like phage / mallet a lot on him, but the argument of 'get HP not resists' is full of holes.
TBH, I prefer just sitting on phage and building damage for a while.
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On September 20 2012 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 21:41 arb wrote:On September 19 2012 20:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on) I literally haven't noticed they were live yet. If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore You DO need to max E first though...
Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
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On September 20 2012 05:48 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 21:41 arb wrote:On September 19 2012 20:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on) I literally haven't noticed they were live yet. If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore You DO need to max E first though... Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
Q for poke, E for melee trades. ezpz
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On September 20 2012 05:48 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 21:41 arb wrote:On September 19 2012 20:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on) I literally haven't noticed they were live yet. If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore You DO need to max E first though... Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
Its E max, I use to think the same thing about Q max first. Too mana costly. It's the accepted fact that if you want to bully the shit out of lane, and always win trades. E is better max first, but of course there are times where Q max isn't bad.
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On September 20 2012 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 05:48 arb wrote:On September 20 2012 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 21:41 arb wrote:On September 19 2012 20:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on) I literally haven't noticed they were live yet. If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore You DO need to max E first though... Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo Its E max, I use to think the same thing about Q max first. Too mana costly. It's the accepted fact that if you want to bully the shit out of lane, and always win trades. E is better max first, but of course there are times where Q max isn't bad.
With the looming E cost increase, do you think that will change things?
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On September 20 2012 10:29 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:On September 20 2012 05:48 arb wrote:On September 20 2012 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 21:41 arb wrote:On September 19 2012 20:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote:
Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on) I literally haven't noticed they were live yet. If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore You DO need to max E first though... Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo Its E max, I use to think the same thing about Q max first. Too mana costly. It's the accepted fact that if you want to bully the shit out of lane, and always win trades. E is better max first, but of course there are times where Q max isn't bad. With the looming E cost increase, do you think that will change things?
It depends by how much. The only thing is it'll make Q a better choice in some lanes, but E just does too much damage not to ignore, especially against high health bruisers.
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On September 20 2012 03:36 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 03:21 Requizen wrote:
Huh, there is. Never noticed.
You want HP over resists because you get free resists from being in hammer stance, so FM is one of the premier defensive items on him, in my opinion.
Still, seems like a silly build. Why do you need Shurelya sprint when you have stance change, Gate, and To The Skies? Why do you realistically need Randuins when you have strong sticking power and an AoE slow in the first place? Why are you building utility on a champion that is primarily there to be a damage dealer? If you lost your lane as Jayce (as you said, unlikely in the first place), I don't think the best thing to do is bring another speed boost on the one you already have, I think it's to farm (which you can do quickly and easily) and catch back up, not buy support items and pray your AD can pick up your slack. Ugh. You don't really want HP over resists THAT badly. The "free resists" you get from Hammer Stance only roughly match up to what most melee characters get baseline. Level 18 jayce has 50 MR in hammer stance baseline... about the same as what most melees have from their natural MR scaling. He has 95 armor... BARELY edging out the upper ends of the armor line, but hardly anything to write home about. Shyvana (one who DOES follow this 'buy hp get free resists' a bit better) gets more armor, especially since she's going to teamfight in dragon form and double her +20 bonus resists to +40. That said, I do like phage / mallet a lot on him, but the argument of 'get HP not resists' is full of holes. TBH, I prefer just sitting on phage and building damage for a while.
65 and 110.5 actually according to the stats on the wiki.
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EPT
