On February 12 2013 05:19 Requizen wrote: Sadly, I don't think Jayce is nearly as strong nowadays. He can't really play the whole "build tanky and be a threat" as he could before the E nerf, and building damage on him doesn't feel as strong as it used to now that everyone has a Warmog's or more.
He's still quite strong, just not the same lane bully he was before. More of a niche pick now, best for a dedicated poke comp with someone like AP nidalee.
New Tear helps him a lot. I sucks because you sacrifice some damage, but it makes it so you don't OOM when poking with QE combo.
Really? I guess on Cannon W and Hammer E it's nice for the combo, but idk if he'd make as much use out of muramana as other champions.
What kind of build do you go on him nowadays? I used to do things like BT + FMallet or TF + Warmogs back when he was released and OP as shit, but I'm just not sure anymore.
The typical builds we've seen in tournament games lately go Tear -> Bruta -> BT -> Muramana then w/e. Q/E becomes godly and can be done forever. You don't need to max E anymore, but Q is incredible for damage/poke.
I feel like just BC's health component isn't enough in a meta where bruisers (especially top laners) are expected to be pretty damn tanky. And that's assuming you finish BC at some point and don't just sit on Bruta.
Well the other thing is that I've mostly seen him played mid lately. Perhaps that changes your perspective on how the build shakes out. I still think a Warmogs is probably core eventually, just LATE core.
Edit: Also, how did I not find this thread when I looked earlier? Reading OP.
Edit 2: Oh, LOL, because it's not in Strategy. Neo pls.
Yeah, Tear makes his laning phase much more manageable since mana is less of an issue, and then makes his late game poke absurd. Muramana doesn't need to be rushed or anything. The build Asmo described is pretty accurate in terms of when we've seen him in pro play. The goal of Tear on Jayce is different than on Ryze, it's more for the mana utility than the extra Toggle damage. Muramana is just a nice bonus since you can build it without having to sell back your Tear and you get to keep the extra mana.
On February 12 2013 05:19 Requizen wrote: Sadly, I don't think Jayce is nearly as strong nowadays. He can't really play the whole "build tanky and be a threat" as he could before the E nerf, and building damage on him doesn't feel as strong as it used to now that everyone has a Warmog's or more.
He's still quite strong, just not the same lane bully he was before. More of a niche pick now, best for a dedicated poke comp with someone like AP nidalee.
New Tear helps him a lot. I sucks because you sacrifice some damage, but it makes it so you don't OOM when poking with QE combo.
Really? I guess on Cannon W and Hammer E it's nice for the combo, but idk if he'd make as much use out of muramana as other champions.
What kind of build do you go on him nowadays? I used to do things like BT + FMallet or TF + Warmogs back when he was released and OP as shit, but I'm just not sure anymore.
The typical builds we've seen in tournament games lately go Tear -> Bruta -> BT -> Muramana then w/e. Q/E becomes godly and can be done forever. You don't need to max E anymore, but Q is incredible for damage/poke.
I feel like just BC's health component isn't enough in a meta where bruisers (especially top laners) are expected to be pretty damn tanky. And that's assuming you finish BC at some point and don't just sit on Bruta.
I think the whole point of the build is to be a pseudo adc/poke/bodyguard for the adc when it comes to teamfights. The 35 resists from hammer form aren't anything to sneeze at either.
Jayce is really tanky for someone who does as much damage as he does and has the same type of range that he does.
My Jayce build is usually tear -> brut -> bt -> lw -> muramana -> warmogs because by the time i have enough gold to get manamune my tear stack are only something like 2/3rd of the way there. Muramana is great on him as well because in a full on engage you should be autoattacking a lot even without Cannon W. I donno I think he's a really great midlaner because he does well versus assassins (Khazix, Talon) versus traditional ap carries (Ryze, Ahri, Orianna etc) and those wonky ap midlaners like Kayle and Nidalee. He shoves incredibly hard and roams extremely well, i lub him
Hm, good points all around. I guess I'll try Tear on him when I get a chance. He doesn't seem to be the fastest stacker for it, so I assume it's for the regen in lane -> manapool late game when it comes to poking? Maybe it's because I don't have a huge mana pool, but I rarely find myself spamming spells in lane as much as Yorick/Ryze/Cass, your traditional Tear builders.
On February 12 2013 06:45 Requizen wrote: Hm, good points all around. I guess I'll try Tear on him when I get a chance. He doesn't seem to be the fastest stacker for it, so I assume it's for the regen in lane -> manapool late game when it comes to poking? Maybe it's because I don't have a huge mana pool, but I rarely find myself spamming spells in lane as much as Yorick/Ryze/Cass, your traditional Tear builders.
Shifting forms, putting down gate to move around map are what stacks it up the most imo. At base you can also use Hammer W and all 3 cannon spells for free to give some stacks~
In my ranked team, my jungler mains Lee and I main Jayce, while my mid mains Cho. The freedom to whore blue is the best feeling in the world, I almost always carry my team xD
Weird thought: SotD on Jayce filling an AD carry role on a team? The active seems to fit his engage/disengage playstyle - his base AS is so low that AS items don't really work well on him, so the opportunity cost of popping the active is a lot lower. A lot of his utility comes from the poke style of play, so he favors setups where he can disengage easily. It *is* paying a lot for the active, but it might be worth it for tower sieges in a comp where he's the pseudo-ADC.
What I have seen these days is that people are relying more on Jayce's W in cannon form. Froggen played Jayce to great effect during LCS last week, where he was able to push a middle turret in 4 minutes as Jayce. His W does a great deal of extra burst damage, and unlike a lot of abilities in this game, works 100% on turrets.
He has always been a great turret pusher since his release, but his Q/E were so broken that many players would skip W until every other skill was maxed. Nowadays I feel many players have found a new role for Jayce.
I watched the game, but I didn't notice, do you mean max W first or second? I've taken to maxing in 2nd, right after Q, when I'm against a tanky dude in the top lane. This provides me with more pushing power, more sustained damage (I think), and a way to replenish mana, which leads to even more pushing and damage.
idk I always go poke glass cannon jayce with manamune lw bt bc mercs or cdr boots and ga or whatever else. always q and e depending on the lane or if its some bruiser stacking health and armor e is really good vs that.
On February 12 2013 14:11 soverelgne wrote: I watched the game, but I didn't notice, do you mean max W first or second? I've taken to maxing in 2nd, right after Q, when I'm against a tanky dude in the top lane. This provides me with more pushing power, more sustained damage (I think), and a way to replenish mana, which leads to even more pushing and damage.
He maxed Q first.
The thing is there was a time when no one even bothered to put points into W, because E costed like no mana at all.
I know people don't agree with Tank Jayce but if you were to do it would you get something like sunfire? For the clear speed and such? Or would a hybrid AD defence item provide more damage/clear?
I'm such a shitty Jayce TT. I just had a game where my jungler fed me an assist and I could push to tower so rumble lost cs, and every trade I'd hit all my spells, but Rumble does so much damage I went even anyways. Rumble's Q, E (once I go melee) do almost as much damage as my combo, and then his shield blocks more damage than my level 1 skills do when you factor in armor/mr. So I go even, then my skills are done, and he walks back and I walk back.
But he'd usually win fights with almost a sliver of life left. Overall I felt I could go even, but then later on, he had a better ult for teamfights. I'd try to walk out of it every time but even 2 seconds of ticks was like 40% of my life. If there are champions that have as good of a laning phase as Jayce while also being better late game then where is Jayce's advantage? I guess he's good at supporting ganks and playing from behind but that's not really optimal.
XSpecial plays Jayce a lot better than me, he used the most of his W in hammer form. But he also had ganks that gave him the kill whereas I mainly got assists. And he maxed E. He was just like "Screw damage efficiency for skill points, if I can knock him away and he can't hit me once, I'll still win the trade."
I think with Jayce you always have to follow through with your trades. Like you use your ranged EQW, then have to change to hammer, QW, and then E only as W runs out. He doesn't have as much hard cc or any really strong shields so that's a good bet of his for winning trades. Missing QE in ranged runs him out of mana.
The other option, and one popular before the E mana nerfs, was just to use hammer form Q, and then E before your enemy had any chance to respond with their own trades. You can get away from a lot of enemies with QE. You also have to stay out of your enemy's range afterwards to prevent retaliation while your skills are on cd. This gives them time to push with impunity. I don't like maxing E though either first or second.
Once you know how to win trades as Jayce while not running out of mana, you'll start winning your lane. You'll never get as strong as an AD carry late game,but you don't need to unless you're going up against AD carries top.
As far as builds go, Jayce has very few defensive steroids but he has a lot of base damage. Theoretically he would make a decent tank. In my experience though, tank Jayce's base damage is worthless. What's more important is what utility he provides. Jayce has a slow, knockback, and team speed boost. It's decent utility, but unless his ranged form E is letting his team initiate fights, or the knockback's saving a carry, or punting an enemy carry to your team, it's not game winning utility.
He also has somewhere near a 7.0 AD ratio on his full combo when you add his ranged form W on 0 additional attack speed. So you can build him for damage too. I don't think he gets near the damage of an AD carry but he is still pretty scary. It's not game winning safety and damage but it's decent.
so if you watched OGN this week you saw there is this new trend in korea where you rush Manamune, I mean to say your typical NA poke comp jayce build is
Tear > Bruta > BT > LW/Manamune(depending on stacks) > whichever you didn't get last
well in OGN this week, they would go
Tear > Manamune NO MATTER WHAT > Bruta > LW > BT
with the reduced cooldown on tear charges as well as spamming stance change on the way to lane, Flame was able to get a 14 min Muramana after starting in a 1v2 lane. I've been experimenting with this in my games, in a 1v1 lane I typically first back with enough to buy the tear and the longsword at the same time, so I could in theory stack it faster, doing this then spamming moves to stack the tear, I've been able to get 16-18 min Muramanas on a pretty regular basis and in a couple of cases had money to combine and get bruta on 2nd back.
The point here is this, the power curve on this at least to me feels so much smoother than sitting on a tear with 0 damage while making a BF sword, it's pretty difficult to get your mana regen, damage, and pen done by 20 min with the BT build, because you are using 2 different items for Damage and Regen, with this build 20 min for all 3 is standard, and because of the extra power from this build you can usually convert this huge power spike into the last two items very quickly.
HIghly recommended, I really like this new way to build him (albeit mostly the same)
On April 22 2013 05:26 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Has Trinity Force totally died on Jayce? It was great before his big nerf, haven't tested since.
Trinity gives too much stuff that Jayce doesn't need IMO. Crit, ASPD, AP.
Sheen and Phage procs are nice I suppose, but Jayce already has ways to slow people. I don't think the Sheen procs actually add that much damage.
As for the new Muramana rush build, I actually didn't know about that as I don't have any ways to watch OGN. Does anyone know the skill orders that Koreans are using? I'm assuming it would be QEQW and then Q->W->E->R, it would make him a complete god in mid-game engages.
EPT
