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On February 25 2012 02:48 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
I've recently realized that rushing abyssal scepter is great for ahri, and found this out from Froggen's stream in which he often does this with her. It gives you good MR against other AP mids during laning phase, and the MR reduction boosts your damage significantly. It's also a lot cheaper than rylais/RDC.
It's harder cheaper than rylais at all, and only 950 cheaper than a dcap.
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On February 25 2012 03:08 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:48 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
I've recently realized that rushing abyssal scepter is great for ahri, and found this out from Froggen's stream in which he often does this with her. It gives you good MR against other AP mids during laning phase, and the MR reduction boosts your damage significantly. It's also a lot cheaper than rylais/RDC. It's harder cheaper than rylais at all, and only 950 cheaper than a dcap.
Say you and your opponent are csing equally well and rush Abyssal/Deathcap respectively. You complete Abyssal first and now have an extra 70 AP 57 Mres and what is effectively 20 MPen. What does your opponent have? 120 AP from Large Rod and Blasting Wand. Do you think your opponent is going to trade well in this situation with his Large Wand? Ignoring external influences (ganks, etc) the gold disparity is only going to increase in your favour. Against Rylai's you can make an argument based on utility but there's really no reason to ever rush Deathcap on Ahri (or any AP for that matter with the exception of perhaps Lux).
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On February 25 2012 03:08 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:48 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
I've recently realized that rushing abyssal scepter is great for ahri, and found this out from Froggen's stream in which he often does this with her. It gives you good MR against other AP mids during laning phase, and the MR reduction boosts your damage significantly. It's also a lot cheaper than rylais/RDC. It's harder cheaper than rylais at all, and only 950 cheaper than a dcap.
Only 950? I don't think you understand how big that is
and yeah, it's really good when you consider ahri doesn't scale that well with ap, so the mr reduction is pretty big, and mr resist is always good. I'd say get this against any difficult mid opponents with lots of dmg like leblanc, but otherwise you can't really go wrong with wota first.
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On February 25 2012 03:08 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:48 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
I've recently realized that rushing abyssal scepter is great for ahri, and found this out from Froggen's stream in which he often does this with her. It gives you good MR against other AP mids during laning phase, and the MR reduction boosts your damage significantly. It's also a lot cheaper than rylais/RDC. It's harder cheaper than rylais at all, and only 950 cheaper than a dcap.
rylais= 3105
abyssal= 2650
15% cheaper is not what I'd call hardly cheaper... and as others have mentioned, dcap doesn't provide utility/defense and ahri's AP scaling is shit. My current item build:
abyssal - > wota -> rylais -> def item/void depending on situation
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On February 25 2012 02:48 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
I've recently realized that rushing abyssal scepter is great for ahri, and found this out from Froggen's stream in which he often does this with her. It gives you good MR against other AP mids during laning phase, and the MR reduction boosts your damage significantly. It's also a lot cheaper than rylais/RDC.
Boots x3 pot and then strait for abyss?
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no, always go for 2 or 3 dorans rings
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On February 25 2012 03:35 midnight.tokyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 03:08 Thermia wrote:On February 25 2012 02:48 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
I've recently realized that rushing abyssal scepter is great for ahri, and found this out from Froggen's stream in which he often does this with her. It gives you good MR against other AP mids during laning phase, and the MR reduction boosts your damage significantly. It's also a lot cheaper than rylais/RDC. It's harder cheaper than rylais at all, and only 950 cheaper than a dcap. Say you and your opponent are csing equally well and rush Abyssal/Deathcap respectively. You complete Abyssal first and now have an extra 70 AP 57 Mres and what is effectively 20 MPen. What does your opponent have? 120 AP from Large Rod and Blasting Wand. Do you think your opponent is going to trade well in this situation with his Large Wand? Ignoring external influences (ganks, etc) the gold disparity is only going to increase in your favour. Against Rylai's you can make an argument based on utility but there's really no reason to ever rush Deathcap on Ahri (or any AP for that matter with the exception of perhaps Lux).
I never said I rushed either of those two items. I don't rush deathcap unless I'm up significantly on my opponent already. I was just comparing them in general. Personally the only time I get deathcap as a first item is if I can get it before 16-17 minutes, because then you can Q people for almost half their health. The only heroes I would get a fast abyssal against (actually I would probably just get the MR and a wota for ~300g? more) would be the ones that can outburst me while stoppping me from escaping, which is basically just leblanc and maybe a couple others. Assuming you get sorc boots and have mpen runes, most of the aura is going to waste early game anyway, so for 1050g you aren't getting very much.
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Weird, I was under the impression that a 2.7 ult ratio was pretty high. Her 1v1 ratios aren't as high as many aps, but her damage in teamfights is just ridiculous, and doing half true damage with q makes the effective ratio significantly higher. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but being able to run into, say, bottom lane at 15-16 minutes and oneshot the ad carry and support by yourself under their tower is how I use early dcap. I never said abyssal is straight up bad, although early game I would much rather have the wota + negatrons for the sustain and aura over abyssals nearly useless (at that point) -mres aura.
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On February 25 2012 05:01 Thermia wrote:
Weird, I was under the impression that a 2.7 ult ratio was pretty high. Her 1v1 ratios aren't as high as many aps, but her damage in teamfights is just ridiculous, and doing half true damage with q makes the effective ratio significantly higher. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but being able to run into, say, bottom lane at 15-16 minutes and oneshot the ad carry and support by yourself under their tower is how I use early dcap. I never said abyssal is straight up bad, although early game I would much rather have the wota + negatrons for the sustain and aura over abyssals nearly useless (at that point) -mres aura.
Her ratios would be fine if they didnt mean that to get the most out of them she has to be right in the middle of an enemy team. Defensive items are good on her the same way defensive items are good on a melee dps.
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Wota is good, but abyssal gives more damage. No point comparing the two as they're situational, the comparison should be between dcap and abyssal.
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On February 25 2012 05:03 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 05:01 Thermia wrote:
Weird, I was under the impression that a 2.7 ult ratio was pretty high. Her 1v1 ratios aren't as high as many aps, but her damage in teamfights is just ridiculous, and doing half true damage with q makes the effective ratio significantly higher. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but being able to run into, say, bottom lane at 15-16 minutes and oneshot the ad carry and support by yourself under their tower is how I use early dcap. I never said abyssal is straight up bad, although early game I would much rather have the wota + negatrons for the sustain and aura over abyssals nearly useless (at that point) -mres aura. Her ratios would be fine if they didnt mean that to get the most out of them she has to be right in the middle of an enemy team. Defensive items are good on her the same way defensive items are good on a melee dps.
Fortunately, her ult gives her the tools to do that; along with massive poke damage/range on q and the chance to catch someone with e.
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On February 25 2012 05:09 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Wota is good, but abyssal gives more damage. No point comparing the two as they're situational, the comparison should be between dcap and abyssal.
Why is there no point comparing the two? I'm saying that I think for early game, wota + negatrons is a comparable cost pair of items to abyssal that will give you more defense/sustain and extremely similar damage, and this is what I usually build. However, there is no reason to get a full abyssal this early unless the other team already has mres on a few heroes, which is unlikely but can happen, in which case, there is no reason not to finish the abyssal. Rushing dcap is very situational as well, and it only makes sense to do it if you are significantly ahead and they have no mr, which is likely if you can get it quickly enough. Being able to instantly kill 3 people on the other team during an early dragon is huge.
Edit: Another thing is that all items you get after the dcap provide 30% more ap instantly; there's no waiting to finish it after that, so it makes your following item pickups a lot stronger much faster, and allows you to snowball even easier.
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Do you guys get WotA when you're the only AP on your team?
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On February 25 2012 05:10 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 05:03 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 25 2012 05:01 Thermia wrote:
Weird, I was under the impression that a 2.7 ult ratio was pretty high. Her 1v1 ratios aren't as high as many aps, but her damage in teamfights is just ridiculous, and doing half true damage with q makes the effective ratio significantly higher. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but being able to run into, say, bottom lane at 15-16 minutes and oneshot the ad carry and support by yourself under their tower is how I use early dcap. I never said abyssal is straight up bad, although early game I would much rather have the wota + negatrons for the sustain and aura over abyssals nearly useless (at that point) -mres aura. Her ratios would be fine if they didnt mean that to get the most out of them she has to be right in the middle of an enemy team. Defensive items are good on her the same way defensive items are good on a melee dps. Fortunately, her ult gives her the tools to do that; along with massive poke damage/range on q and the chance to catch someone with e.
Thats the point. To get the maximum amount of damage out of your ult you need to go INTO the enemy team and dance around in there. Her kit is predicated around being in the enemy team's face to maximize your damage.
Which is why defensive items on her are very good.
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On February 25 2012 05:16 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 05:09 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Wota is good, but abyssal gives more damage. No point comparing the two as they're situational, the comparison should be between dcap and abyssal. Why is there no point comparing the two? I'm saying that I think for early game, wota + negatrons is a comparable cost pair of items to abyssal that will give you more defense/sustain and extremely similar damage, and this is what I usually build. However, there is no reason to get a full abyssal this early unless the other team already has mres on a few heroes, which is unlikely but can happen, in which case, there is no reason not to finish the abyssal. Rushing dcap is very situational as well, and it only makes sense to do it if you are significantly ahead and they have no mr, which is likely if you can get it quickly enough. Being able to instantly kill 3 people on the other team during an early dragon is huge. Edit: Another thing is that all items you get after the dcap provide 30% more ap instantly; there's no waiting to finish it after that, so it makes your following item pickups a lot stronger much faster, and allows you to snowball even easier.
What? Wota and abyssal are COMPLETELY different items. Killing potential vs. sustain. And again, 20 mpen is still good and comparable to dcap even with sorc boots and mpen runes. You provide this aura to everyone on your team so your killing potential is increased that much more. It's not extremely similar damage at all.
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On February 25 2012 05:19 Woony wrote:
Do you guys get WotA when you're the only AP on your team?
A lot of guys have been delaying their wota after revolver after the wota nerf, but now that revolver's spellvamp got nerfed too, wouldn't finishing the wota be good now since it provides a pretty big spell vamp boost?
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On February 25 2012 05:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 05:16 Thermia wrote:On February 25 2012 05:09 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Wota is good, but abyssal gives more damage. No point comparing the two as they're situational, the comparison should be between dcap and abyssal. Why is there no point comparing the two? I'm saying that I think for early game, wota + negatrons is a comparable cost pair of items to abyssal that will give you more defense/sustain and extremely similar damage, and this is what I usually build. However, there is no reason to get a full abyssal this early unless the other team already has mres on a few heroes, which is unlikely but can happen, in which case, there is no reason not to finish the abyssal. Rushing dcap is very situational as well, and it only makes sense to do it if you are significantly ahead and they have no mr, which is likely if you can get it quickly enough. Being able to instantly kill 3 people on the other team during an early dragon is huge. Edit: Another thing is that all items you get after the dcap provide 30% more ap instantly; there's no waiting to finish it after that, so it makes your following item pickups a lot stronger much faster, and allows you to snowball even easier. What? Wota and abyssal are COMPLETELY different items. Killing potential vs. sustain. And again, 20 mpen is still good and comparable to dcap even with sorc boots and mpen runes. You provide this aura to everyone on your team so your killing potential is increased that much more. It's not extremely similar damage at all.
I said wota + negatrons, as the combination is similar in cost and function to abyssal. Please read closer. Abyssal is not just a "killing potential" item, it is defense + some killing potential hybrid item. Assuming ~30 base mres, which is fairly average afaik, you are already reducing an opponent down to 1.5 mres with just mpen reds and sorc boots. Abyssal's aura is nearly completely wasted, you get a whopping -1.5 mres on those targets. Now, if you were running double AP, the aura would be significantly more useful, but then again the enemy would be much more likely to get earlier mres anyway so you'd be getting it fast anyway under my priorities (although wota would be doubly useful as well, especially if you're stacking two of them). Since you personally aren't getting any use out of the aura (and as AP mid, you will probably be the majority of your team's magic damage) and it won't be nearly as effective for the remaining mostly physical damage, it just doesn't make sense to me to rush it as a first item unless there are a few conditions being met.
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I ignored the negatrons because I ignored the comparison of the +57 mres. Thought this was pretty easy to understand as they're both negated and I never compared that function. Also, how often are you able to run double wota? Double ap mid and top is not that common at all. And you're still wrong, even at low mr the dmg you gain from 20 more mpen is significant, and you can even skip sorc boots to rush an abyssal as well. And most games there will typically be several players who go for mres.
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The extra 20 mpen on Abyss negates anyone who runs mres blues, and is enough to take care of the natural mres that some champs gain (this is at a time where typically only their top will have any extra mres built, if at all)
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EPT
