On May 09 2012 05:24 Slayer91 wrote: BT+ga is a much better combo than frozen atmas and atmas is pretty trash now. IF you need hp often you want maw of malmortius as well since mr shield+mr is prefect against bursty AP combos because of your spammable E which scales off your AD to counter lower amounts of sustained damage.
How is atma's trash now? It still offers A LOT of stats per gold than any other item if you have over 2000 health. The Maw point is moot, because it's a item for both pure AD riven build, and my bruiser build.
GA+BT Riven @ lvl 18 has 70.8 base armor, and 1962hp. GA offers 68 Armor, totaling 138.8 armor. Which is a 58.12% dmg reduction (from physical) BT offers 100AD (if stack'd), will offer an additional 100 hp to shield. (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2242, w/ effective hp of ~3875
FrozMallet+Atma's Frozmallet offer 700 health, totally health to 2662 Atma's offer 45 armor, totaling 115.8 armor. Which is 53.66% dmg reduction (from physical) 40AD (from Atma's) and 20AD, totaling to 60AD, additional 60hp to shield (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2902, w/ effective hp of ~5450
You can see the defensive difference against AD.
Now w/ GA you do run more MR, but w/ the gold difference it's only a 200-300 gold more for a negatron cloak.
You're completely ignoring the lifesteal component on BT, and the ressurection effect on GA, which not only gives you an extra 500 or so? life, guarantees you get another shield on top of that, so another 300 or so on top of that. GA also provides a delay on death, meaning if you get focused your team has time to do more before you're targettable again, a bit like kayle ult.
Also it depends on the number of shields you get in a fight total, + the extra one from ressing after GA.
You also get almost a BF sword worth more of AD, so along with being equal or better defensively, you gain about 1500 more gold worth of stats, considering we're looking at a 5.5kish gold item combo that's pretty huge.
Also frozen mallet and atmas is only 100 gold cheaper I think? So you're losing at least a null magic of resists, and resists scales really well with lifesteal.
I don't think BT + GA is some kind of godly combo, but that frozen mallet atmas is bad and you should feel bad. (Or at least sub optimal)
edit: mallet 3250, atmas 2355, ga 2600, bt 3000 so they cost the same amount, but bt ga is way better in both 1v1 situations and teamfights. Yeah you can be like oh blah blah blah slow but the slow works on everybody, not that many people make that much use of it, certainly riven doesn't, she's largely burst based on teamfights because you dont constantly attack people with just autos or you get focused in teamfights you get your burst and jump with spells when they are up.
BT into GA is still king on Riven imo. The only exception is if it's double AP where then I really enjoy grabbing a Hex/Maw because the MR is great and the shield is awesome. Plus you get more AD when you're lower on health, which is great for Riven.
Vs Double AP: Boots, Dorans, Hex, tier2 boots, maw, bt, ga
Vs Everything else: boots, dorans, bf, tier2 boots, bt, ga
Yes, it would, but it's dead end if you don't go warmogs, better just not to get HP and instead get items like red pot, maw of malmortius, GA, maybe even a randuins or frozen heart if you really are scared of physical damage. I used to go warmogs atmas at some point on riven with stuff like BT and GA finished but atmas nerf is just makes it a meh item now better to buy LW.
On May 09 2012 05:24 Slayer91 wrote: BT+ga is a much better combo than frozen atmas and atmas is pretty trash now. IF you need hp often you want maw of malmortius as well since mr shield+mr is prefect against bursty AP combos because of your spammable E which scales off your AD to counter lower amounts of sustained damage.
How is atma's trash now? It still offers A LOT of stats per gold than any other item if you have over 2000 health. The Maw point is moot, because it's a item for both pure AD riven build, and my bruiser build.
GA+BT Riven @ lvl 18 has 70.8 base armor, and 1962hp. GA offers 68 Armor, totaling 138.8 armor. Which is a 58.12% dmg reduction (from physical) BT offers 100AD (if stack'd), will offer an additional 100 hp to shield. (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2242, w/ effective hp of ~3875
FrozMallet+Atma's Frozmallet offer 700 health, totally health to 2662 Atma's offer 45 armor, totaling 115.8 armor. Which is 53.66% dmg reduction (from physical) 40AD (from Atma's) and 20AD, totaling to 60AD, additional 60hp to shield (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2902, w/ effective hp of ~5450
You can see the defensive difference against AD.
Now w/ GA you do run more MR, but w/ the gold difference it's only a 200-300 gold more for a negatron cloak.
I would prefer to have the bonus AD BT/GA provides because of the high scaling on all those AOE moves, you're also forgetting to take into account how good life steal is, when you're in a commited fight. Being able to get a stronger shield off and life steal, then stun and life steal with the fact if you do die, you're going to res with that BT still stacked, and get a second chance for a stun and more life steal. Riven also has the benefit of not needing the slow to really stick to some one.
You can still get the warmogs/mallet atma's after GA, but getting that blood thirster fast will make your opponent have a hell of a time forcing you out of lane because of the sustain it provides, while Frozen Mallet will make you able to eat more damage, you're not really going to regenerate that damage with out something like warmog's. Going warmog's is just going to leave you with this huge weakness in your power curve until you get your Atma's that if you do have to roam and get involved in a team fight, you're going to wish you had the BT, and a few pieces to the GA.
I didn't get to finish my post (lecture ended), but what I was going to continue saying, was that I think the increased EHP more than justifies the usefulness in battle w/ Riven. Yes the life steal is nice on Riven, however is sorta negligible in battle, the amount of time she auto's is pretty low (especially in comparison to other AD's the run life steal).
in reference to the respawn on GA, not gunna lie around 90% of the time, I die right after respawning, it's pretty fucking rare that I escape after respawn.
On May 09 2012 06:20 wei2coolman wrote: I didn't get to finish my post (lecture ended), but what I was going to continue saying, was that I think the increased EHP more than justifies the usefulness in battle w/ Riven. Yes the life steal is nice on Riven, however is sorta negligible in battle, the amount of time she auto's is pretty low (especially in comparison to other AD's the run life steal).
in reference to the respawn on GA, not gunna lie around 90% of the time, I die right after respawning, it's pretty fucking rare that I escape after respawn.
If you get caught, sure, in any teamfight situation where its winnable GA will be much more useful.
Anyway, Mallet atmas is pretty darn poor EHP wise compared to the more popular items currently. You get 1 chain vest of armour and a giants belt+ruby of hp, so it's more like 2k gold worth of EHP, and 2k gold worth of damage, for 5.6k because you don't use the crit on atmas or the slow that much. You can get much better combos for your money, and honestly, you're just overrating hp a lot because the EHP numbers look great on paper but add in poke damage, external heals and shields, lifesteal especially sustaining on creeps in poke battles, drawn out fights, chases and split pushes, they all add up massively in favour of non hp, and EVEN STILL ga provides just as much hp in the respawn.
The weakness of GA is the 5 minute cooldown, dying instantly again is just something that shouldn't happen. For example you can go balls out in teamfights when you can't without it because you get res-->shield-->flash-->Q-q-q --> i'm out peace! if that really does happen.
jungle riven's become pretty popular lately it seems, or at least saint's been playing it a lot. what rune/mastery setup is best? i've been using ad reds and quints and 21/9/0
On May 09 2012 07:23 Xevious wrote: jungle riven's become pretty popular lately it seems, or at least saint's been playing it a lot. what rune/mastery setup is best? i've been using ad reds and quints and 21/9/0
^that's what I run. I don't really seeing how any other mastery setup being nearly as good.
On May 09 2012 04:59 wei2coolman wrote: I like phage because it builds into Frozmallet. The slow is meh, because rivens ability to gap close is really powerful so chasing usually is a non issue. I just like the huge amount of HP it gives riven. Frozmallet + atma's gives around 60-70ad, 700 hp, and 45armor. It just feels so strong. Maybe it's because I like initiating fights w/ riven, that's probably why i feel tankyass riven feels so strong....
Even if you're building "tankyass riven" it makes zero sense to build resist-centric bruisers with items that are so heavily focused on HP.
In this regard, Riven is exactly the same as Warwick or Udyr--and you pretty much shouldn't be building Giant's Belt-based items on those guys either. You can choose between buying damage or survivability, but that doesn't make primary HP items that are based on Giant's Belt good on them. Their survivability is heavily rooted in the availability of low-CD shields/heals, which scale much better with resists than with HP. HP scales heal/shield based survivability linearly, while resists scale asymptotically toward the point of infinite EHP. This is why Riven's primary defense stat choices are heavily resist-based like GA and QSS.
In all honesty I would consider Randuin's as a more sensible armor source than Atma's, because it synergizes with further resist stacking (which you want to do) while Atma's synergizes with buying HP (which you don't).
I was thinking about the randuins as a replacement for frozmallet and atma's, but phage really offers a super nice midgame w/ dorans. Still plenty of games from riven for me to go to find the perfect build for my playstyle. Also what are people's opinion on ghostblade as a replacement over lw?
Dislike it. Your abilities span the length of the AA timer, so the AS isn't very useful unless you're essentially slaping people with a pool-noodle no passive sword. The crit isn't super useful. If you're getting itbecause people are building armor(duh) then it's piercing less. In the end the only really worthwhile part is the CDR. =\
In the end, the money spent into phage/brutalizer is better off saved for a little bit to BF.
Though I have decided to be a jerk while snowballing in the jungle and pick them both up + Hexdrinker. =]
I think Mallet/Atmas is a trap on Riven because it follows a linear growth pattern where you never really feel "weak" during the game. (All the parts are relatively cheap, it's combining them where you get into the expenses.) You get a little AD, a little HP, some armor everything is growing equally.
Whereas BT GA Riven you feel "weaker" while you're sitting on gold waiting for that BF / Bloodthirster but her growth is just so exponential once you get it that I really think it's the only effective way to play her.
I loved Mallet / Atmas when she first came out but it just feels so much weaker.
Sometimes i tend to get just a phage, and just leave it as a phage until ultra-super-mega-late game. But yeah BT feels so stupidily good on her, i don't get how you would feel stronger, just because you have a larger health pool.
Last post in this thread was kind of old, and I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but lately I've had a ton of trouble playing Riven against Olaf and Irelia. I tend to go Wriggle, Tabi BT GA kind of build, and because I build high armor but fairly low life, they just true damage my pants off and I have a rough time. I don't usually build Phage fmallet because I don't feel like it's all that great on her, so I was wondering if there were any tips you guys had against these guys when going for the BT build.
On June 24 2012 16:21 MeteorRise wrote: Last post in this thread was kind of old, and I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but lately I've had a ton of trouble playing Riven against Olaf and Irelia. I tend to go Wriggle, Tabi BT GA kind of build, and because I build high armor but fairly low life, they just true damage my pants off and I have a rough time. I don't usually build Phage fmallet because I don't feel like it's all that great on her, so I was wondering if there were any tips you guys had against these guys when going for the BT build.
Playing against Olaf is essentially impossible since his E true damage will typically outscale the health you actually get from your E. If you level your skills to prefer damage (Q and W), you just melt under his true damage, but if you level up your E to survive, you have no kill potential. The lane will usually end up even or you just lose. You can just get double dorans --> phage to help against the true damage. If you play against an Irelia, it really depends on the other player's skill with Irelia. Typically Irelia will win since her E gives a really long stun that lets her disengage at will. Her Hiten Style lets her auto her health back up, so she will usually outsustain Riven. The matchup is just who can outplay the other.
On June 24 2012 16:21 MeteorRise wrote: Last post in this thread was kind of old, and I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but lately I've had a ton of trouble playing Riven against Olaf and Irelia. I tend to go Wriggle, Tabi BT GA kind of build, and because I build high armor but fairly low life, they just true damage my pants off and I have a rough time. I don't usually build Phage fmallet because I don't feel like it's all that great on her, so I was wondering if there were any tips you guys had against these guys when going for the BT build.
Well why would your rush armor in lane when the only guarantee'd damage he'll have on you is his true damage? Instead of trying to outscale defensively him with armor when most Olaf's skirmishing potential ignores armor is kinda silly, especially since as Riven you have 100% control on engages.
I'd start Cloth+5->Boots->DBladex2->BT->GA.
You should definitely max your shield first.
If he maxing true damage you should be able to outscale his true damage with your shield assuming you are maxing it first; realistically even if his E does more damage to your than yours shields you can come ahead in the trade. Also try not to fight him when his W is procc'd (ie stun him and disengage). Just force a skirmish everytime your shield is up, then back off before you take much more than your shield and wait for it to come up again.
His true damage actually hurts him a lot, and once you factor in Mana costs you have a pretty huge sustain advantage on Olaf.
A lot of guides are saying to go for a blood thirstier and so far it's worked out well but why go for a stacking item, isn't it risky? They only scale well if you're engaging in teamfights but you should only be dealing with top lane unless you're jungling and then it's a bit of a different story, but if you're 1v1 top solo you're in a situation where you're only going to be fighting that one person the whole game. Which seems like it reduces the chances to get stacks on it, and that you're missing out on half of the items potential. Wouldn't going for like a Bilgewater Cutlass and Brutalizer be better to go for? Since you get a heavy slow, and life steal earlier at the sacrifice of 10 damage, if you're just going to build a bilgewater.
Bloodthirster is 3000g for 60 damage 12 lifesteal
And its passive which grants lifesteal and damage for your kills after you get it. But this feels like its quite insignificant.
Brutalizer + Bilgewater is 3162g for 60 damage 15 lifesteal 15 armor pen 10% CRD
and 150 damage, 50% slow for 3 seconds
The only downfall is that if you build a bilgewater first you're going to lose out on 10 damage at the cost of gaining lifesteal and the 150 damage and 50% slow for 3 seconds which is on a CD of 60 seconds, allowing you to bully or escape your lane even better.
Anyone have any suggestions on why you should get a Bloodthrister or why not to get it? To me it just seems useless midgame because its passive isn't as good as a bilgewater + brutalizer and you'll have slots for them.
... Bloodthirster gains stacks from any type of kill. That includes minions, which you'll have plenty of if you and your lane opponent are still hanging around top for farm.
EPT
