Riven is a highly unappreciated pick right now. Like many other champions who were not blatantly OP at release, I feel that many people took one look at her, tried a generic build that would work on a seemingly similar champion ("tanky DPS" in her case), found that it was extremely underwhelming (due to bad build, lack of skill / comfort with their skillset, and knowing what comps they fit in best), and gave her up. I feel the biggest problem that most people have playing Riven is playing her in the early levels and itemizing her correctly, and if you get both of those right, she can become the hardest carry in the game.
Broken Wings Broken Wings: Riven steps forward and lashes out in a series of powerful sword slashes. This ability can be activated up to 3 times in a short period. 1st/2nd Use: Deals damage to a small area in front of her 3rd Use: Jumps into the air and slams downward, causing a larger impact nova that deals damage and knocks nearby enemies back. Ki Burst Ki Burst: Riven damages and stuns nearby enemies. Valor Valor: Riven dashes forward and gains a shield for a short duration. Blade of the Exile Blade of the Exile (Ultimate): Riven's sword reforms, giving her a percentage multiplier on her total attack damage, extended range on her damaging abilities and basic attacks and the ability to use Wind Slash once. Wind Slash Wind Slash: While Blade of the Exile is active, Riven can reactivate the ability to emit a large shockwave that deals damage to all units hit based on their missing life. Runic Blade Runic Blade (Passive): Riven's abilities charge her blade, causing her to do bonus damage on her next autoattack. Riven can store up to 3 charges, but only expends one at a time.
Summoners: I run tele flash. Exhaust flash and ignite flash work (definetly cheesier in lane) but tele flash lets you farm up while allowing presence in dragon fights and lets you farm while splitpushing lategame. You want to farm up. You also are unparalleled 1v1 lategame. It makes for a strong splitpusher.
Runes: Arpen reds Flat armor yellows (dodge is okay but not necessary because lategame the mobility increase from nimbleness is fairly minimal compared to your movement from q and e with r activated, and it makes you that much more of a lane bully) Flat magic resist or scaling blues, preference / lane matchup decided Quints: Flat AD or Armor (armor if the lane requires it, AD otherwise)
Strengths: 1. Scaling As in the longer it goes the more and more powerful she will become (in terms of power curve relative to other champions, she only gets stronger: multiplicative AD on her ult makes this so), as long as you aren't getting denied farm on her its relatively easy to make a comeback against fed APs and AD carries with good positioning and itemization
If the game ever gets to the point where you have 6 items on you, you should not lose unless the rest of your team is like level 9 and even then it is possible to win because you 3 shot the tanky guys and 1 - 2 shot the squishies
2. Strength in lane She's strong. She wins a lot of lanes outright, and the ones she does not, it is difficult to deny her farm because she has high mobility to escape from combos and ganks. She doesn't mind trading farm either in close matchups, because she will scale harder in 99% of them.
3. Scaling I have to put it here again because it might have not gotten across the first time around. She is stronger than ANYBODY as long as you position and play yourself somewhat like what you really are, the hardest carry in the game. Unless you are the absolute tankiest person on your team you don't run in like a "tanky DPS". Let your teammates soak up the engagement cc, whether that be tibbers or galio ultimate. If you can avoid the majority of AoE cc and can get in a position to deal damage, you have done your job. Your e and q give you massive mobility, even through slows. As long as you're whacking something, you are doing your job. If you are whacking a squishy, even better for you. If I haven't sold you yet, here are some numbers. With a completed build, I see myself doing 1300-1400 damage crits lategame with passive and ult on, not to mention the 500 damage aoe nuke ministun on w (which is actually incredibly useful in teamfights, if your team has an aoe ultimate it is a really good setup as well as dumb aoe damage lategame), 500 damage shield on a super low cd esp with blue elixir and or buff (when you can shield every 4 seconds for 500 damage that adds up VERY quickly), and of course her ult which executes anybody who flashes away from your initial RAWRIHITYOUdamage. Lategame, as long as you take away their health to about 25-35%, the r active almost always a kill if you itemize correctly. She is a MONSTER, and you have to build a team around that accordingly.
Weaknesses: With wriggles build, there is definite vulnerability while you are waiting for your first BF / BT against certain matchups, but no lane is impossible to farm if you know when to relent and when trading is worthwhile.
Now that I have sold you on riven's superpowers I will go into details on builds and stuff.
First I'll go into items because that is where I feel the vast majority of riven players go absolutely wrong. Lots of people have the mentality that they have to build riven as a "tanky DPS" with mallet / warmog + atma and other stuff. Whether this is due to Xpecial's lacking first riven guide (the second is better but I feel ghostblade is a bad choice on her) where he just listed random items that characters like lee sin could reasonably get or due to Hotshot's riven games where he got tanky dps items and performed mediocrely, or most likely, a preconception of how she should be played, I do not know. She scales best with 3 things and 3 things only.
1. DAMAGE. (This includes LW and the subsequent armorpen passive). Her survivability and more obviously her damage output scale with this due to her e and her entire kit respectively. The fact that you get free EHP out of the more times you cast your E makes building any sort of health worse and worse the later the game goes on. Her E is so batshit insane that if you get off several E's in the course of the fight it is more effective than jax's passive, or nasus ult, or the vast majority of skills and passives that give free HP.
2. PURE ARMOR AND MRES. Due to the fact that you get free HP out of building massive AD, then to bolster your survivability all that is left is the relevant defensive stats. Guardian angel is super good because it gives you a shitton of this, and synergizes very well with her e and
3. LIFESTEAL. If you build tanky enough for step 2, then combined with your e, lifesteal makes you super sustained in fights. You are probably have more survivability with a decent build that contains lifesteal than some dumb atmogs build because you will heal as long as you don't get instagibbed, and with proper AD, an extra 500 damage shield with E will prevent you from being so. It also doesn't hurt that the item that gives the most lifesteal also gives the most AD in the game either. You don't need the mobility that the ghostblade in xpecial's updated guide gives, as your q and e will let you go where you want in teamfights. You do like CDR, but not to the point where you would get a vastly inferior lategame item (as compared to LW's godly passive) on a super powerful lategame champ. If you want cdr, get a blue pot, tell your support to get soul shroud, and go kill a bitch for their blue.
Item Build: Usually: cloth5pot -> wriggles & boots -> BT / GA / mercs parts as needed (completing the BT first takes precedence over finishing GA) -> GA -> LW / BT / IEDGE (selling the wriggles for your last item). + Show Spoiler +
The reasoning behind each item is this: Cloth5pot: I have tried various openings, such as dblade, cloth5pot, boots3pot, null mantle 2pot, whatever. except for a select few matchups against some casters, cloth5pot generally seems to be the strongest opening in the vast majority of lane matchups (especially top, where I feel riven is at home). Even against casters, cloth5pot helps against autoattack harass (which is extremely noticeable) and gives the riven player a nice margin of error to work with. In matchups where the opponent goes dblade or boots 3 pot (not giving riven the respect she deserves!) you can win via straight attrition. in cloth5pot matchups, riven's superior damage with no mana constraints usually wins you exchanges as well unless you take abnormal amounts of creep aggro. In general, a very safe, a very strong, and a very direct counter opening to most top laners. Wriggles: gives all 3 of the stats that riven loves (mentioned above) and a free ward to boot! This is your laning item, as well as being just a nice little bit of everything until you really start rolling. There is at least one hero that becomes immediately more sustainable than you with wriggles (udyr) when you both get it, but don't give a damn cause you will outscale the bloody hell out of him later. Wriggles will let you farm against any laner as long as you know when to play passive and when to abuse the imba lifesteal it gives. If you have immediate trouble finishing your wriggles, you CAN go dblades and save the cloth for GA later, but you forsake the sustain that wriggles gives (which makes up for her natural lack of sustain: her base hp regen, while great, cannot make up for the sustain that a lot of skills and passives that champs like yorrick and udyr have) as the lifesteal on dblades are much more ignorable than that of wriggles. You don't get wriggles for the immediate damage or impact on teamfights though, but mostly as a method to be able to farm up for your Bloodthirster: godly on her for abovementioned reasons. As soon as you get some stacks rolling on a bloodthirster, you are very powerful in teamfights. Also, if your laning opponent is unfortunate enough to still be laning against you, you can destroy him and then lifesteal whatever meager damage he has dealt to you. You will definetly notice the boost in damage on all of your skills and e as soon as you have completed the BF, and it will only get bigger as you complete your BT. GA and mercs: both give very good defensive stats, and both of their passives are great on riven. If your opponent team is full of AD, then you may want to complete the chain vest or cloth armor before completing your mercs (or both!) for midgame fights. If you need immediate oomph in a teamfight because your team is struggling, then you should consider grabbing some of these before finishing your BT or BF; this is however highly suboptimal because Riven's weakest point is when she is farming for her first BF sword, and unless you can make an immediate advantage through winning a teamfight with the increased survivability, it just lengthens the time in which she is weak. When she has GA completed and BT stacked though, she is incredibly powerful, doing massive damage and being hard to focus due to her 150+ armor (often hitting 180-200 lategame depending on masteries and runes) and the GA passive combining well with her e and lifesteal. LW / Additional BT / Iedge: More damage / lifesteal. Order is situational, if they're stacking armor because they are terrified of you LW, BT and Iedge are both solid choices otherwise. I will usually get whichever I can afford if I'm not going or have already completed LW. Neither is usually strictly superior to the other if you haven't sold your wriggles yet, but BT is more affordable and helps surviving more, IEdge is more damage (but I hardly ever feel a lack of damage at this point in the game). After you get Iedge, make sure to start chugging green elixers as it really is a huge increase in crit, and if fights are close (which they generally tend to not be after you finish most of your core) then red pots as well. Chugging all 3 pots is a must when you're ending the game or have your build completed.
QSS is situationally okay, but if you're playing correctly GA does lessen the threat of a suppression instaburst. Buy in place of the second BT if needed, and probably sell it for the BT by endgame anyway.
Playstyle: She's quite strong against melee ADs with armor page and cloth5pot, because unlike many melee ADs, she does not require boots to use her skills well (garen talen etc.) given her skills' mobility and of course if she trades correctly with a dblade opening she will force them back at level 2 or earlier. Thus against most common top picks she is quite strong.
She is also impossible to completely kite as she can bite the bullet for a level or 2 and go for a combo at levels 2 or 3 even against traditional ad carries like caitlyn. The mobility combined with such a sustained opening makes her a threat in most lanes.
Riven's level 1 is terrifying. It should not be played passively if possible. With flat AD quints and the masteries above, your passive gives you 10 additional damage on an autoattack with it charged, each q does 37 damage per hit, and she has 67 base damage on her autoattack. So before resistances, if she gets a full combo with q auto q auto q auto off, she deals 342 damage total. That is quite a bit. Of course, with resistances and a margin of error of one less autoattack, it will come out to less, but it is still extremely formidable. As Riven, you want to general take creep advantage level 1 or 2. Even if it means that you eat a little poke, suck it up and push the wave so that you will hit level 2 before the opponent (or at least get rid of the melee minions as early as possible). From there you can push your advantage and go aggressive with your q. If you hit level 2 before your opponent and have already gotten level 1 damage on him, you can go again and chain in your w when you feel necessary. He should be near dead and forced to pop a pot. By nature of this kind of aggression, you are a target for ganks, so it is good to be wary of where the enemy jungler has started / is at any given time. If you feel the threat of being ganked early is very high, you might even request cvs / wards being put down by your support for toplane. Aside from ganks, there are relatively few lanes that you should lose straight up top lane if you open cloth5pot. The one thing to be wary of is if you run teleport to not go full retard against an opponent with exhaust or ignite, and to know your limits. This requires a little bit of falling and getting back up again (i.e. playing certain matchups until you know your limits and theirs) but once you have a good feel for it you can do well.
garen can go for a level 2 kill wtih dblade and ad marks, but if he doesn't manage to kill her then, he's fucked and her e makes it so that you can trade with garen post 3 very easily not to mention you can w before his q auto gets into range and run away if you dont wanna fight with him at any point
pantheon gets destroyed and is fairly easy to gank nasus gets destroyed and is easy to gank
cho is really disadvantaged level 1-2, but if he can get over the rocky early levels and builds some good armor early it can become a farm off (i still wouldn't want to play cho against her because you're kinda forced into a static build path that the enemy AP should be able to take advantage of but w/e) they're both decent to gank for, but late game riven is a much bigger beast midgame fights they're both strong
olaf is strong vs her, its a matchup with very little margin of error for riven, but whoever gets the first gank will usually win. riven outscales him like fuck, so he MUST win or he's screwed
tryndamere scales comparably with riven and is equally strong or stronger at levels 2-3, so that's another matchup that comes down to ganks and individual skill level / use of skills well.
ryze with boots can kite her quite well, riven needs boots in that matchup because of how ryze's w works. after ryze gets tear, its a pain in the ass, because you WILL be forced back, even with wriggles.
udyr and irelia work, but neither can usually shut down her farm, and neither like trading farm because there are very few windows where either is as strong as riven in teamfights (level 7 irelia is pretty scary, but most dragon teamfights won't happen then; riven does a lot more aoe damage than irelia as well as being comparably or more mobile).
gangplank... i've never seen a gangplank shut me down, but i have shut down a TON of gangplanks. he has less survivability if he builds glass cannon, and his kit in general is less suited for teamfighting with the exception of his ult (and riven's probably does more damage anyway) and will get shut down if both riven and GP have wriggles and they are trading hits
i would probably go ryze or olaf because each definitely has a time period during which they are definitively stronger than riven in lane and in teamfights, and tryndamere for a safe fall-back that has good scaling (because olaf at least gets outscaled like fuck by riven, and ryze while having quite a bit of utility has less damage than her for sure)
Don't just blindly r->qqqweqqweqweqweqweqwe. Getting the most out of lifesteal and your insane 1.8 scaling on your passive is what makes or breaks a Riven player. Of course if you can be autoattacking and using your skills on the enemy Caitlyn or Vayne, do so (and she is really exceptional at taking them down). However, most reasonable teamfights start off with the two teams hitting each other and the enemy ad and support starting off to the side away from you. You can start off with a q or two and your ult turned on, and if the ad ever hits you while you're not cc'd, use your e and the third q to jump on them, autoattack, w, and then try to land your ult on as many people as possible. Don't charge super blindly though, and don't be the first to soak up all of the aoe cc. Use positioning, common sense, and your flash to do what you need to do.
Most games don't run out long enough that you will get all 6 items, but if it ever does and your teamcomp is not terrible, you should win, because you scale so hard. She is a hard carry in the sense of DotA / HoN hard carries, and needs to be played and built as such to get full effectiveness out of her.
Please post relative criticism and discussion. tkzzz
gunblade's nice. would rather have someone else carry wota. in terms of in lane sustain you get more out of wriggles and BT gives you more bang for your buck you get nothing out of the AP that gunblade gives you
imo riven jungling is kind of like jax jungling fast after a certain point but you go very low and have mediocre early control in first clears and they scale so well with the farm that putting them in jungle instead of soloes when they have quite a few good matchups is suboptimal
she is quite similar to jax in a lot of ways, both scale hard (especially with regards to free hp gained from offensive stats), have aoe stun, etc. Riven does more aoe physical damage (and more 1v1 damage lategame with enough AD) whereas jax has some more inherent survivability with dodge and a more flexible leap. if you get off 2 e's over the course of a fight with enough AD you actually make up the worth of jax's passive on riven lol and you should get at least 3 e's off in a fight with GA on one as you start the fight a second one in the midst of the fight (if you're getting instagibbed you're going in too early) and a third after your GA pops if it does at all with r activated and enough AD, assuming a 400-500 damage shield, that's quite a bit of EHP that you get
YES!! Finally someone else who loves Riven and believe in Riven!!! :D
Glad to know I am not the only person who thinks building AD and resistance give her better survivability for the buck than the cookie cutter atmog tanky DPS build
My problem with her was always laning and it's great that you covered tricks for early laning with her as well. I think you should definitely upload a video or replay though =P
my internet sucks and my lolreplay is broken right now so that if u use a q ability on the champion whose replay it is it crashes
im willing to put up some replays after it fixes though
am also willing to make a small jungle guide, but she is a different role that people aren't used to seeing in LoL so much imo her AD scaling on her autoattacks is 1.8 with her passive and her ult triggered. This means that she can chain autoattacks that can crit for 1.4k + with the above build, and unlike most traditional AD carries she can afford to make this build because of the super large amounts of free HP gold value she gets from e, the cc and utility that are provided by the movement and knockback and stun on her skills, and because she has great baseline defensive stats. She can essentially 1 shot multiple people if positioned and played correctly, and people don't know how to respect that (in terms of letting her farm and playing around and with her in teamfights). to get that kind of farm out of the jungle is quite difficult.
gunblade in that sense isn't as kewl as iedge for me cause i luvvvv seeing those 1.4k crits. its slow is nice but her stun and knockback let her chain cc off on 1 target, and if that target flashes away her ult can seal the deal most of the time as long as you get a couple autos off on him/her as you're chaining your qs and w. jax benefits from gunblade because he literally benefits from every stat, riven imo would rather have the additional AD and the crit chance to go with elixirs lategame anyway.
On October 07 2011 13:55 Liquid`Tyler wrote: but have you considered gunblade?
Not worth it IMO.
Bloodthirster - 3000 gold for 60-100 AD, 15-25% lifesteal
HGB - 3625 gold for 60 AD, 20% lifesteal, 25% spellvamp, and cutlass active.
In terms of cost-effectiveness, Gunblade just about breaks even with an empty Bloodthirster--if you absolutely are incapable of keeping stacks (kind of bad when you're playing a late-game hard carry), Gunblade might be the better buy, but if you're able to farm and keep stacks, Bloodthirster gives you similar stats at much higher gold efficiency. Spellvamp is nice to have (and you should pester your AP carry into getting WotA so you can have some), but not worth paying for a stat you don't use to get.
While she's much better in lane than in jungle (and needs the farm for her build), I think it really speaks as a strength that she can pull off the same effectiveness in jungle as she can in lane. She's a character that, even with the same rune page and masteries, can just swap out Teleport for Smite and jungle for your team if no one else wants to do it. She's not my first jungle choice if I was picking the perfect comp, but if she's on a team and there is no jungler, it's npnp.
You say in your guide that your only defensive item is GA. You get a lot of EHP from AD for sure, but is getting something like FMallet, Phage, or even just a Giant Belt something you consider? I feel too squishy with lower HP, but then again I never build GA so I'm not sure it's defensiveness.
Nice. I jungle with her though, basically same build. Start with vamp scepter at wolves. 3 speed quints flat ad reds armor yellows and mres per level blues. I'm really bad though so take this with a grain of salt.
I jungle and lane with riven and find both incredibly strong. I bought her about a week ago and have already decided to main her after one game due to her versatility to escape fights and high burst at low levels.
I usually build her with atmogs and merc treads before going full tank - FoN, Thorn(if I have to), and then decide if I need more survival or otherwise last whisper/black cleaver is usually what I finish with. I've found her tankiness(once built up properly) and her ability to run past tanks with her skills what make her so valuable. I go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0 with her while jungling and laning. Always same runes no matter lane or jungle,health quints, armour pen reds, magic res per level blue and armour yellows.
Edit- kinda feels like singed a bit when tanked up however riven has more damage and less survival.
I usually build her with atmogs and merc treads before going full tank
ಠ_ಠ
Full tank is bad. I'll go tanky dps if I'm the only viable one on our team (the other melee is Yi or an assassin or something and we don't have a tanky type), but otherwise go with the OP. Full tank brings no damage and is pretty much just an annoyance to the other team without being a threat. If anything, just AtMog's with Merc's makes you tough enough, the rest should just be damage items thanks to E giving health for AD.
Exhaust means you can 1n1 lategame, it also eliminates the possibility of being kited down really hard. Being exhausted by someone like Jax means he can eat you all day.
If you go for "I'm the strongest lategame carry ever", I think TP is a weird choice.
Also, most rivens I see max Q > E > W, W being a one point wonder. Why do you max W over E over Q?
W scales much much harder because of CDR reduction and sometimes you don't necessarily hit people with Q and use it for mobility instead; maxing Q can hurt your damage more than it helps.
Riven is more intended to be DPS and try to do damage over a fairly long period of time, so within the span of 1 maxed Q you can use maxed W two times, which does way more damage and is more stuns.
Teleport is a good option for a solotop champion. She has good escape from ganks and she doesn't really need to fight people if she doesn't want to.
Riven doesn't need exhaust to beat the shit out of people late-game but you can take it if you want.
On October 08 2011 02:06 r.Evo wrote: What is your reasoning for TP > exhaust/ignite?
Exhaust means you can 1n1 lategame, it also eliminates the possibility of being kited down really hard. Being exhausted by someone like Jax means he can eat you all day.
If you go for "I'm the strongest lategame carry ever", I think TP is a weird choice.
Also, most rivens I see max Q > E > W, W being a one point wonder. Why do you max W over E over Q?
Q seems to do SO MUCH MORE dmg than W.
Not the OP, but I'll voice some opinions.
She can fight perfectly well without Exhaust or Ignite. Both are nice, but if you don't need them, Tele gives a lot of versatility. Get back to lane, defend a lane, get farm for BT. I think all 3 are perfectly viable, but I usually can't use them as I jungle and need Smite.
W brings burst damage. It's base is pretty respectable, and the 1:1 AD scaling hurts. The -1 second CD per point is amazingly good, especially if you have CDR and/or can get blue.
Q gets no CDR from leveling up, and the base damage doesn't grow as well as W. Q's strength comes from charging your passive quickly, which you can get just as well with 1 rank as you can from 5.
Cheers, you guys got me. I'll try that stuff out now. =)
Also, I realized OP does not get any cdr item. Would stuff like bruta/kindlegem (spirit visage, trollolol) delay your "heavy" items too much to be usefull?
I personally like Bruta towards the midgame, but there are plenty of arguments against it. Riven is really a late-game monster, so a lot of people don't spend time getting mid-game items and rather just build the big things like BT and IE. If you're jungling, you'll have Blue a good portion of the time, unless your mid really needs it, so that's respecable CDR in itself.
But in the end, pure AD is better because of her 1:1 scaling or higher on everything. Her CDs are pretty low without stuff like that anyway.
Nice guide. I never really concidered GA as the defensive item, but it actually make a lot of sense, will try that in the future. I like jungling on her better than laning tho.
On the other hand, i had a game where i was laning against a Xerath, and i find in general that laning against an AP with her is painfull. Cattching them is usualy hard because of their range and their hard cc ( stun ) and playing passively isn't really what Riven do. :/ Any thought ?
I think she's pretty good at dodging and catching, dunno about you. E and Q can get you out of most skillshots no problem. As soon as you see you're in a zone (Brand's W, Xerath's Q or R, etc.), you just E out of there. Q is an amazing chase tool, especially when combined with W. Gives good chase and CC.
She can play passively just fine. Just stay out of skillshots as described, have pots/lifesteal, and if the ranged gets near you you can jump on them and out-damage them pretty easily at most levels.
On October 07 2011 21:58 Requizen wrote: While she's much better in lane than in jungle (and needs the farm for her build), I think it really speaks as a strength that she can pull off the same effectiveness in jungle as she can in lane. She's a character that, even with the same rune page and masteries, can just swap out Teleport for Smite and jungle for your team if no one else wants to do it. She's not my first jungle choice if I was picking the perfect comp, but if she's on a team and there is no jungler, it's npnp.
You say in your guide that your only defensive item is GA. You get a lot of EHP from AD for sure, but is getting something like FMallet, Phage, or even just a Giant Belt something you consider? I feel too squishy with lower HP, but then again I never build GA so I'm not sure it's defensiveness.
people underestimate exactly how much survivability she gets from AD the fact that you get a 1:1 AD shield that scales with your defensive stats on a 6 second pre cdr cd means that if you get 3 shields over the course of the fight you essentially have a 1 AD : 3 HP passive (like jax's) and any more than that and you've gone over that efficiency. If you get GA you get 180-200 armor depending on runes and 130-140 mres depending on runes yet again. Not bad for only 2 defensive items (3 if counting wriggles). Her baseline survivability is great, and positioning yourself correctly with your e usage is what determines how survivable you are.
If you eat all the cc and damage at the very beginning of a fight of course you're going to die early, with minimal positioning effort you can solve many of these issues. Kind of like how some people liked to build vayne tanky and abuse her w (while she was strong enough at release that she could do this successfully, building squishy with good positioning was proven to be a lot more successful; while this analogy isn't perfect 'cause riven isn't even that squishy with GA, just dont go initiating 2v5s and you should be okay)
try out the build and post replays of difficulties and i will watch i think my lolreplay just patched lol
Eh, I realize how amazing E is for her, but I just always feel leery of walking around as a fighter-type with lower health than some casters. Just not used to it lol.
i think that's the biggest problem people have with her they're not used to playing a role that isn't clearly pre-defined Especially if you're getting more than 1 bloodthirster you have to be really wary of dying
i generally don't die very much when i play riven time dead is time during which you can't be farming
On October 08 2011 02:06 r.Evo wrote: What is your reasoning for TP > exhaust/ignite?
Exhaust means you can 1n1 lategame, it also eliminates the possibility of being kited down really hard. Being exhausted by someone like Jax means he can eat you all day.
If you go for "I'm the strongest lategame carry ever", I think TP is a weird choice.
TP on Riven works the same way as TP on Jax. It creates incredibly punishing midgame situations where the enemy team has to choose between giving up objectives, and letting you farm (and in many cases, teams will be indecisive and posture in awkward situations neither taking objectives nor stopping your farm). At best they have someone with TP, but because Riven outscales anyone else, trading farm with someone else who has TP is better for you most of the time.
do you ever take caster minion agro at lvl 1 in order to do your full combo? or is attacking at lvl 1 something that you do only if your opponent somehow gives you a chance? do you wait for them to come in for a last hit on one of your melee creeps and full combo them then?
On October 08 2011 04:40 Navi wrote: i think that's the biggest problem people have with her they're not used to playing a role that isn't clearly pre-defined Especially if you're getting more than 1 bloodthirster you have to be really wary of dying
i generally don't die very much when i play riven time dead is time during which you can't be farming
Ah, if only it was as easy as "dying would suck right now, I choose not to die"
On October 08 2011 05:05 Liquid`Tyler wrote: do you ever take caster minion agro at lvl 1 in order to do your full combo? or is attacking at lvl 1 something that you do only if your opponent somehow gives you a chance? do you wait for them to come in for a last hit on one of your melee creeps and full combo them then?
It kind of depends, but as long as you can dodge into a bush, taking aggro isn't the worst thing in the world. Early levels, it's very important to land all 3 hits of your Q to do as much damage as possible (until you get a respectable amount of AD), so I usually wait until they're in range.
mmm well against exhaust, it's not possible to do it at all. if they stand on top of their caster minions and exhaust you in the middle of your combo, you're gonna take massive damage (and barely do any damage) and lose control of the lane. if they also have a slow/stun/knockup/snare, you really messed up. even with 5 pot opening, i wouldnt want to take that exchange.
without exhaust, i can see how it'd be worth it to take caster agro as long as you're sure you're gonna land the full combo. 5 pots should let you control the lane after the exchange. but im still thinking it's not a great idea to just charge out there and do it. rather wait for them to go for a last hit (assuming they're a melee champ)
if possible try to autoattack the minion creeps such that at least 1 of your melee minions survives when his are all dead. May be counterintuitive to the typical advice of "NEVER PUSH YOUR WAVE" but if your melees are on his casters and you guys engage over his casters the amount of creep aggro gained on both sides should be similar. If they have exhaust, when they pop it on you is vital. If they pop after they have already eaten most of the combo, you have to know how much damage they do; if you think there is a decent chance of them killing you, then flash immediately into a bush and leave the bush if they flash to follow. The lower hp that you flash out the higher chance that you will die.
The better you know your and their limits with exhaust and ignite the less likely you are to die to it.
If they dont have exhaust or ignite you can trololol and do whatever the heck you want lol
I have been playing a little bit of riven here and there to get the feel for her.
I highly recommend her as a champ, not because I believe that she is incredibly viable, but simply because she is very satisfying to play.
Speaking to her role in a match, I believe she was designed to punish solo top bruisers. In 1v1 lanes vs characters like Rumble Singed or Morde she really shines as her mobility allows her hop in and deal damage while her shield allows her to pull out without much pain.
This is completely different from other melee dps champs whose primary role is to push out the AD/AP carry or engage and occupy the bruiser.
Because her damage (outsider her W) tends to be more staggered she also tends to be less effective as a gap closer even though she has 3 escape abilities.
Unfortunately her attack approach is somewhat linear and she does not have a large amount of health (or cloak) like a Xin, Shen or other dash champs. As a result I do not recommend chasing down burst AP or AD champs unless you have completely caught them out of position.
Going back to my first comment, she excels most in melee bruiser battles where she can Q-E-W in, stun one or more of the melee champs, attack and then Q out in order to reset the approach.
Navi is totally correct (Hi navi!) in stating that her survivability is based highly around her AD. She is an AD caster. Much like Lux, Blitz, Sion etc scaling a huge shield from AP, Riven scales a huge shield from flat AD. The huge difference being is she is not ranged and only semi-burst based (W/R).
I do not recommend the dedicated lifesteal approach for several reasons. 1) She does not have a large base hit point pool. 2) She is not a solid stand and fight champion (unlike practically every other melee/dps champ) 3) She does not have a cloak or long distance dash in order to pull out of combat from AP burst champs. 4) With raw AD her shield provides a great deal of staggered survivability.
The core flaw I see with Riven (which likely makes her less useful in competitive play) is that while she is strong 1v1 against a melee dps bruiser, durability is entirely dependent on whether or not her E is up. This makes her a prime/easy target for ganks, particularly for heros with strong CC/Stun. Additionally a little bit of early disruption really throws off her entire game.
the biggest problem i seem to encounter with riven is i get kited all day erry day. gotta be sneaky and clever to get up close to ppl without them realizing it
I played straight super tanky DPS with Riven not too long ago (Atmas Impaler being my only source of AD) it was good, owned with a 14/2 score however, she isn't built to be played like this imo so she shouldn't, it just feels strange to play in this manner... Hm...
Riven feels like Lee Sin with less mobility but with an AD ratio on shield instead of AP.
Right now my biggest issue with OP's build is that riven has terribad attack speed and without itemizing for it it feels like you lose out on a lot of dps since her autoattacks hurt a shitton with her ulti+passive up. but i have no idea how to fit in aspd into her build tho so :\
you combo in her autoattacks inbetween her spells....? lol her autoattack damage is amazing because of her passive if she got to sit and whack and get the same damage output then itemizing for aspd would be more rationalized but she has to build passive stacks for it she has decent base aspd (she gains 3.5% per level, quite high) and with greenpot it makes chaining in autos inbetween spells perfectly reasonable
this is a build that i have had success with and feel is fairly optimized for my style at least. her numbers are fucking amazing and without a feeding team and farming up well i have never had a problem playing her this way. i feel playing her super tanky is just a crutch for bad positioning and being able to walk into 5 people and do no damage and just hop around. the fact that she scales with BONUS AD on all her skills makes this seem obvious to me.
please at least test the build out in a game before talking about its cons, and if you feel that you or your team misplayed significantly repeat until you feel confident that there weren't many of them.
On October 08 2011 07:35 Navi wrote: you combo in her autoattacks inbetween her spells....? lol her autoattack damage is amazing because of her passive if she got to sit and whack and get the same damage output then itemizing for aspd would be more rationalized but she has to build passive stacks for it she has decent base aspd (she gains 3.5% per level, quite high) and with greenpot it makes chaining in autos inbetween spells perfectly reasonable
this is a build that i have had success with and feel is fairly optimized for my style at least. her numbers are fucking amazing and without a feeding team and farming up well i have never had a problem playing her this way. i feel playing her super tanky is just a crutch for bad positioning and being able to walk into 5 people and do no damage and just hop around. the fact that she scales with BONUS AD on all her skills makes this seem obvious to me.
please at least test the build out in a game before talking about its cons, and if you feel that you or your team misplayed significantly repeat until you feel confident that there weren't many of them.
I have played it out and have had really really great success with it. Including a penta :D
I tried a game with some aspd. It was considerably easier to spell-auto-spell-auto, etc... cause there's much less delay from animation. However, you do have to give up a considerable amount of AD so it's probably not worth it.
On October 08 2011 07:15 RogerX wrote: I played straight super tanky DPS with Riven not too long ago (Atmas Impaler being my only source of AD) it was good, owned with a 14/2 score however, she isn't built to be played like this imo so she shouldn't, it just feels strange to play in this manner... Hm...
I'm a decent advocate of tanky dps Riven from time to time... but it depends on your comp and your enemy's comp. For standard play and balanced sides, the OP here is probably your best bet.
On the other hand, if you're in a situation where you're the only tanky dps type or you feel you need another one (the enemy has more bruisers than normal, wierd shit like that), AtMog's builds work. She works well with pretty much any build as long as there is a moderate amount of AD in there. If you feel that tanky dps fits your playstyle more or your regular friends' comp, go for it. Normally though, go with a high AD build to take advantage of her absurd scaling.
Been playing a few games with riven and I have to say that abusing those brush at top just wins games. You just go bush terrorist mode like garen except you can mini-dash to your opponent so they have much less time to react than if you were to get a speed boost like garen.
I also found that riven can easily 2v1 the top and jungler both once you hit 6 (makes it easier when you have exhaust) since you only really have to bring one down to 1/3 hp and then one shot him with wind slash. Since you have so much aoe, you should have done enough damage to the other guy that you can net the second kill. Between wriggles and your e, you have so much sustainability-to-damage in a fight that it makes it really hard to take you out. Since you are so mobile, you can also opt out of fights extremely easily for when, say, they exhaust you.
On October 08 2011 07:35 Navi wrote: you combo in her autoattacks inbetween her spells....? lol her autoattack damage is amazing because of her passive if she got to sit and whack and get the same damage output then itemizing for aspd would be more rationalized but she has to build passive stacks for it she has decent base aspd (she gains 3.5% per level, quite high) and with greenpot it makes chaining in autos inbetween spells perfectly reasonable
this is a build that i have had success with and feel is fairly optimized for my style at least. her numbers are fucking amazing and without a feeding team and farming up well i have never had a problem playing her this way. i feel playing her super tanky is just a crutch for bad positioning and being able to walk into 5 people and do no damage and just hop around. the fact that she scales with BONUS AD on all her skills makes this seem obvious to me.
please at least test the build out in a game before talking about its cons, and if you feel that you or your team misplayed significantly repeat until you feel confident that there weren't many of them.
I have played it out and have had really really great success with it. Including a penta :D
I tried a game with some aspd. It was considerably easier to spell-auto-spell-auto, etc... cause there's much less delay from animation. However, you do have to give up a considerable amount of AD so it's probably not worth it.
Well, you can try to make a Black Cleaver later in the game. The armor pen will not be that optimal because you already have a LW, but it give ASP and AD. Or even use a Ghostblade, all the stats are good ( but lack ad a bit )and the active make your combo way easier to execute with the auto in beetwen.
Ive been tryin out Jungle Riven. She needs to gank early and often. I believe my ability sequence is: QWEEQRQWWQRWWQEREE And usually i go Cloth+5pot --> vamp sceptre --> wriggle's --> boots --> merc's --> warmogs --> atma's --> bloodthirster --> infinity edge Riven is actually pretty tanky w/o warmogs, but I like the extra hp
I don't think she needs to gank, but she's one of the best early gankers, so I figure why not? But if you can't get one off, don't worry about it and just keep farming. She can counter jungle pretty good too if you know where they're at.
Edit: that skill order is wack. R > W > E > Q and start with QWEE is pretty much accepted as the best way to go.
I can't get myself away from liking Brutalizer -> Youmuu's Ghostblade at some point in the game. During a team fight I find it best to just spam my way through Q to get to that disruption as quick as possible. The active on the Ghostblade let's me spit down my Runic Blade charges in an extremely quick fashion, pushing out burst no one seems to expect.
Thanks to your advice though, I've been trying out Infinity Edge. I like it a lot, but after the Bloodthister/Ghostblade combo that I can't get myself away from. I've tried going Bloodthirster -> Infinity Edge and I find myself missing the Ghostblade too much. It also seems like the Armor Penetration, CDR, and cheaper price make up for not having the Infinity Edge so early.
In a typical game, I've been doing Wriggles, Doran's Blade, Mercury Treads, Brutalizer, Bloodthirster, Ghostblade. At that point I'd go either Guardian Angel, Infinity Edge, or Last Whisper depending on how it goes. I think people underestimate Riven's auto attacks with Runic Blade charges. It's nearly every game I've played where someone is confused as to how I did so much damage. Not to mention Wriggles gives you insane Yorick levels of sustain.
brutalizer before BT is definetly a valid option as she benefits fully from all the stats on bruta (cdr AD and arpen) but imo benefits less from GB (aspd and movespeed not necessary lategame)
if i can ever farm it though I would almost always have a BF instead of a bruta, but one of its plusses is that its easy to farm up the components comparatively.
As for your opening build, I don't think you need a DBlade if you opened Wriggle's. If you already got a Wriggle's, the lifesteal and from DBlade is negligible and you would be better off saving for your next big item. 100 health is nice, but by the time you have Wriggle's and boots, you'll be moving toward midgame, and DBlade is an early game item for Riven.
On October 09 2011 03:06 Navi wrote: brutalizer before BT is definetly a valid option as she benefits fully from all the stats on bruta (cdr AD and arpen) but imo benefits less from GB (aspd and movespeed not necessary lategame)
if i can ever farm it though I would almost always have a BF instead of a bruta, but one of its plusses is that its easy to farm up the components comparatively.
I just don't feel like having Brutalizer does that much for you midgame. Most of the guys that get Brutalizer do it to gank aggressively, or push their dominant early game control (Garen, Panth, etc.). With Riven, you want to be farming through that stage of the game. You don't really get to push ganks/fights out of Brutalizer, so it doesn't really seem worth it if you're just going to go back to lane and farm with it.
With 5 flat ad marks and 3 ad quints, 4 arpen reds, armor yellows, and blue of your choice, you can do any clear you want with cloth5pot. She can do a blue start full clear in about 4 minutes flat with 21-0-9. Not as fast as the speedy junglers like noc amumu and udyr, but probably a better gank than amumu's after the first clear. Because she can do a full clear, it implies that she can do more specialized starts; whether that is fast gank with 3 and red and no blue or fast levelling clear, that's up to user preference.
If nothing else reaching the required farm to do an AD build on riven is much harder from the jungle than from a solo lane.
I've been playing Riven since she first came in, in Ranked games, and I've been loving it. Currently have 70% win rate on her and 6 to 1 KDA Ratio over 50 games.
Your skill build should always be W > Q > E... then max W first then Q. If you are forced to play passive in the lane, max E first.
There are two things I like doing on her: laneing bottom with a support player, and jungling. She is a terrible, terrible top solo and can only be good vs very passive solos. On bot lane, you will be forced to play aggressive. If you try to be too passive, you will get out harassed. However, when you hit level 3 on Riven, it's easy to get last hits. You must use your dash to get up to creeps and use that damage shield to soak harassment from ranged champs. But overall, you must try to be aggressive. If you can manage to do well on her in the lane, you will dominate the game. I generally prefer to lane as Riven if I am positive that my lane partner is very good. Otherwise, where Riven truly shines is the jungle.
Riven plays a lot like Yi in the jungle. She has extreme gank potential and can clear the camps very fast. She can also invade the enemy jungle easily and totally fuck someone's jungle path. I usually get a leash on the double golem when the game starts, and go immediately for a level 2 gank. Then I will go wraith, wolf, buy, get golem for mid or get red for myself, then I will mostly focus on ganks and invading the enemy jungle. Of course, this is all subject to change depending on the circumstances, but if you need a general outline, then that is what you should do. At level 6, you become a particularly potent ganker.
Riven is also an extremely powerful late game carry. She is a great melee carry in general because she can perform very well throughout the entire game (outside of the early laning phase, although she can be good there too).
For items in order,
Laneing: Doran shield, boots, brutalizer/phage (depending on if you need more hp or if you are doing well and need dmg), phage/brutalizer, merc treds (could get earlier if needed), bloodthirster, frozen mallet, infinity edge, atmas, then finish ghostblade.
Jungling: Cloth armor and 5 hp pots, wriggle lantern, boots, brutalizer/phage (depending on if you need more hp or if you are doing well and need dmg), phage/brutalizer, merc treds (could get earlier if needed), bloodthirster, frozen mallet, infinity edge, atmas, then finish ghostblade.
This build gives you very high damage as well as good survivability. Atmogs build is very terrible on Riven as it makes you AD suffer quite a bit throughout a large portion of the game and thus you will be very useless until super late game. My build is much better as it makes you strong throughout every portion of the game and has you hitting like a truck late game. Your base damage is around 430 if I recall correctly late game (im 1 week banned currently, so I can't check atm), not counting your ult... in which it gets up to over 500. That's not counting crits (atma's and infinity edge are made for eachother). That's also not counting her passive, which is where a large portion of her damage comes from. Late, it's your auto attack that is doing most of the damage, but you still need to stringing skills together with auto attack in order to maximize damage.
Overall, Riven is an awesome hero and is very underrated. I can't tell you how many games I go in to where people say "PLEASE DON'T PICK RIVEN" or "DON'T PICK RIVEN, DO IT FOR THE TEAM!", where I end up carrying my entire team. She takes more skill than a lot of other champions in this game, but overall is an excellent hero.
On October 09 2011 10:41 -Trippin- wrote: I've been playing Riven since she first came in, in Ranked games, and I've been loving it. Currently have 70% win rate on her and 6 to 1 KDA Ratio over 50 games.
Your skill build should always be Q > W > E... then max W first then Q. If you are forced to play passive in the lane, max E first.
There are two things I like doing on her: laneing bottom with a support player, and jungling. She is a terrible, terrible top solo and can only be good vs very passive solos. On bot lane, you will be forced to play aggressive. If you try to be too passive, you will get out harassed. However, when you hit level 3 on Riven, it's easy to get last hits. You must use your dash to get up to creeps and use that damage shield to soak harassment from ranged champs. But overall, you must try to be aggressive. If you can manage to do well on her in the lane, you will dominate the game. I generally prefer to lane as Riven if I am positive that my lane partner is very good. Otherwise, where Riven truly shines is the jungle.
Riven plays a lot like Yi in the jungle. She has extreme gank potential and can clear the camps very fast. She can also invade the enemy jungle easily and totally fuck someone's jungle path. I usually get a leash on the double golem when the game starts, and go immediately for a level 2 gank. Then I will go wraith, wolf, buy, get golem for mid or get red for myself, then I will mostly focus on ganks and invading the enemy jungle. Of course, this is all subject to change depending on the circumstances, but if you need a general outline, then that is what you should do. At level 6, you become a particularly potent ganker.
Riven is also an extremely powerful late game carry. She is a great melee carry in general because she can perform very well throughout the entire game (outside of the early laning phase, although she can be good there too).
For items in order,
Laneing: Doran shield, boots, brutalizer/phage (depending on if you need more hp or if you are doing well and need dmg), phage/brutalizer, merc treds (could get earlier if needed), bloodthirster, frozen mallet, infinity edge, atmas, then finish ghostblade.
Jungling: Cloth armor and 5 hp pots, wriggle lantern, boots, brutalizer/phage (depending on if you need more hp or if you are doing well and need dmg), phage/brutalizer, merc treds (could get earlier if needed), bloodthirster, frozen mallet, infinity edge, atmas, then finish ghostblade.
This build gives you very high damage as well as good survivability. Atmogs build is very terrible on Riven as it makes you AD suffer quite a bit throughout a large portion of the game and thus you will be very useless until super late game. My build is much better as it makes you strong throughout every portion of the game and has you hitting like a truck late game. Your base damage is around 430 if I recall correctly late game (im 1 week banned currently, so I can't check atm), not counting your ult... in which it gets up to over 500. That's not counting crits (atma's and infinity edge are made for eachother). That's also not counting her passive, which is where a large portion of her damage comes from. Late, it's your auto attack that is doing most of the damage, but you still need to stringing skills together with auto attack in order to maximize damage.
Overall, Riven is an awesome hero and is very underrated. I can't tell you how many games I go in to where people say "PLEASE DON'T PICK RIVEN" or "DON'T PICK RIVEN, DO IT FOR THE TEAM!", where I end up carrying my entire team. She takes more skill than a lot of other champions in this game, but overall is an excellent hero.
Would you mind adding your elo/server and actually adding/discussing things in the OP instead of posting your own miniguide? (which states things completely different from every decent riven player i saw)
Ty for this guide. Before I would run warmogs or frozen mallet and just spin around in a teamfight and realize I wasn't doing anything. This build actually makes a lot more sense and changed my opinion of riven from UP to pretty viable.
Honestly, I feel that even if you wanted to build tanky DPS Riven, Warmogs->Atmas or Mallet->Atmas would still be the wrong way to go, because someone with a low-CD shield gets so much more out of resist stacking than HP. It's just like on Warwick (except instead of heal, you have a shield) or Udyr--you stack resists, because high-throughput healing/shielding effects means that your survivability scales asymptotically off resists, and only linearly off HP.
On October 09 2011 10:41 -Trippin- wrote: I've been playing Riven since she first came in, in Ranked games, and I've been loving it. Currently have 70% win rate on her and 6 to 1 KDA Ratio over 50 games.
Your skill build should always be Q > W > E... then max W first then Q. If you are forced to play passive in the lane, max E first.
There are two things I like doing on her: laneing bottom with a support player, and jungling. She is a terrible, terrible top solo and can only be good vs very passive solos. On bot lane, you will be forced to play aggressive. If you try to be too passive, you will get out harassed. However, when you hit level 3 on Riven, it's easy to get last hits. You must use your dash to get up to creeps and use that damage shield to soak harassment from ranged champs. But overall, you must try to be aggressive. If you can manage to do well on her in the lane, you will dominate the game. I generally prefer to lane as Riven if I am positive that my lane partner is very good. Otherwise, where Riven truly shines is the jungle.
Riven plays a lot like Yi in the jungle. She has extreme gank potential and can clear the camps very fast. She can also invade the enemy jungle easily and totally fuck someone's jungle path. I usually get a leash on the double golem when the game starts, and go immediately for a level 2 gank. Then I will go wraith, wolf, buy, get golem for mid or get red for myself, then I will mostly focus on ganks and invading the enemy jungle. Of course, this is all subject to change depending on the circumstances, but if you need a general outline, then that is what you should do. At level 6, you become a particularly potent ganker.
Riven is also an extremely powerful late game carry. She is a great melee carry in general because she can perform very well throughout the entire game (outside of the early laning phase, although she can be good there too).
For items in order,
Laneing: Doran shield, boots, brutalizer/phage (depending on if you need more hp or if you are doing well and need dmg), phage/brutalizer, merc treds (could get earlier if needed), bloodthirster, frozen mallet, infinity edge, atmas, then finish ghostblade.
Jungling: Cloth armor and 5 hp pots, wriggle lantern, boots, brutalizer/phage (depending on if you need more hp or if you are doing well and need dmg), phage/brutalizer, merc treds (could get earlier if needed), bloodthirster, frozen mallet, infinity edge, atmas, then finish ghostblade.
This build gives you very high damage as well as good survivability. Atmogs build is very terrible on Riven as it makes you AD suffer quite a bit throughout a large portion of the game and thus you will be very useless until super late game. My build is much better as it makes you strong throughout every portion of the game and has you hitting like a truck late game. Your base damage is around 430 if I recall correctly late game (im 1 week banned currently, so I can't check atm), not counting your ult... in which it gets up to over 500. That's not counting crits (atma's and infinity edge are made for eachother). That's also not counting her passive, which is where a large portion of her damage comes from. Late, it's your auto attack that is doing most of the damage, but you still need to stringing skills together with auto attack in order to maximize damage.
Overall, Riven is an awesome hero and is very underrated. I can't tell you how many games I go in to where people say "PLEASE DON'T PICK RIVEN" or "DON'T PICK RIVEN, DO IT FOR THE TEAM!", where I end up carrying my entire team. She takes more skill than a lot of other champions in this game, but overall is an excellent hero.
Would you mind adding your elo/server and actually adding/discussing things in the OP instead of posting your own miniguide? (which states things completely different from every decent riven player i saw)
I'm 1600 bouncing between 1550ish range and up to 1700 elo on the US server. I'll post a screenshot in two days when I am unbanned, but unless it is absolutely necessary I'd rather not given my full summoner name.
I also don't see the problem in posting how I play Riven in a thread dedicated to the champion. Especally considering I am adding to the discussion, as I am posting what I think is the correct way to play her.
Also, why not instead of questioning my credibility, you actually just try what I said yourself and see how effective it is? You are dismissing everything I said because you haven't personally seen someone decent saying or perhaps doing similar things without actually seeing or trying it in action. Kind of reminds me a lot of Starcraft and how most players will just copy builds from pros and claim all other builds are trash just because pros aren't doing them. Then a pro does one of these builds everyone claims to be "trash", and it is all of a sudden a pivotal part of the metagame.
what makes you think she is a terrible top solo? i have beaten many garens and the like in lane with her.
the lack of early survivability in your builds perhaps lead to your bad solo top experiences.
maxing q, while having more potential max burst in one exchange, is worse in the midgame because your cds on w and e are relatively long. E and W's scaling is similar to q's (better if you only get two q's on the enemy in terms of damage mitigated / dealt) but their cds scale per rank whereas q's doesn't.
On October 10 2011 13:08 Navi wrote: what makes you think she is a terrible top solo? i have beaten many garens and the like in lane with her.
the lack of early survivability in your builds perhaps lead to your bad solo top experiences.
maxing q, while having more potential max burst in one exchange, is worse in the midgame because your cds on w and e are relatively long. E and W's scaling is similar to q's (better if you only get two q's on the enemy in terms of damage mitigated / dealt) but their cds scale per rank whereas q's doesn't.
I've made that experience too. She has alot of tools to make her strong top: she beats some of the common picks, she scales well with farm, she can solo push quite far because of her mobility, she is hard to gank early on as well, she has tools to force trades and has tools to evade unnecessary damage.
I run apen red, flat armor yellow, flat mres blue, and 2 flat hp/sec and 1apen quints (still trying to save up for a movement speed quint to replace the latter)
I feel like akali has a slight advantage in this matchup. Against a friend, I went the usual cloth+pots and felt a bit stronger at lvl 1, but started to fall behind once she got her shroud up, thus getting zoned a bit and ending up last hitting under my tower more often.
The second time I played more defensively, prioritizing e over w and managed to kill most of his ranged minions without taking too much damage. Instead of the usual cloth+pots, I started with boots+3pots. On my first trip back, I get 2 NMM and the usual ward and pots. I build these into mercs and hexdrinker. My reasoning is because of the current metagame which usually has an ap mid. If akali's top, it's pretty obvious that they have 2 ap carries in their team, making my choice at least reasonable.
I'm not sure if I should get wriggles after these 2 items, though. I was thinking about skipping it and getting a bt.
All in all, I was mainly focused on her early levels 1-6 with an objective of free farming against an akali, and this is strictly from my experience. If you guys have a better alternative, feel free to critique my playstyle.
if you think you can survive without wriggles or dont need its benefits (armor, good lifesteal for passive value paid on wriggles, AD, procs for quickly stealing jungle camps / dragon) then rushing bt is great. idk if just a vamp scepter will be good enough vs akali though, since she has a nice mix of damage and more sustainability than a riven with just a vamp (as most akalis build gunblade first) letting her trade with you while coming out most of the time.
from my very hazy memories of that matchup its a win for riven pre 6, i will try it again today
Akali's pattern is pretty predictable; throw a Q at you, wait a bit and then R onto you to proc Q and probably throw another Q + proc.
With good enough reaction you should be able to distance yourself from akali and avoid being Q procced when she dashes in, either by Eing away or stunning her first and then Eing away. Since riven has the same natural speed as akali plus a lot of bunny hops she shouldn't be able to do anything beyond that unless she's willing to expend more R charges. While Akali is low on R charges she's really not that scary and riven is capable of harassing her in that state with Q -> E -> W -> and then Q Q away pattern.
I haven't had too much trouble with Akali, but then again, most are trash. Rush Merc's (and maybe NMM) after BF rather than waiting for BT to be finished, plus scaling MR blues means she isn't going to blow you up as fast as she would otherwise. You can farm a bit more efficiently, and smart E usage can really save you.
But like I said, low ELO Akali's can be dumb and they don't have the necessary Runes, so I'm not an official source on this. I'd say this is a champ you might want to get FMallet against. Counter picking Exhaust against her might be really smart, the damage reduction plus E can save you or secure a kill.
I find when I'm up against an AP on top, that rushing a Hexdrinker and the Mercury Treads with just a Vampiric Scepter does the trick. (At least, if you are having issues against them) Then I usually do not get a Wriggles and instead run straight into a Bloodthirster. Most Akali's will do some insane dives when you are low regardless of whether you have a Hexdrinker or not. Riven with Ki Shout and Valor can usually trick them into getting themselves killed a that point.
As for whether or not to get Doran's Blades with Wriggles... I pretty much just can't help myself. I know Riven scales ridiculously once she picks up that Bloodthirster, but Doran's Blades help you get there safely and come with the added HP which is still useful. If I find myself back with around 2k gold then I'll pick up the BF Sword, but I usually need to back before that due to needing a ward anyway. Heck lately I've even been running Wriggles, Doran's, Mercury Treads, and Brutalizer all before the Bloodthirster and I've had no troubles. I will however, try 5 or so games where I force myself to run Wriggles, Boots of Speed, into a Bloodthirster and see how it goes. Just to see the difference.
Hrm, if I got Hex to deal with a strong AP in lane (namely Akali in this case, maybe Rumble? Don't see him enough), I'd skip Merc treads and get CDR boots maybe? Missing the tenacity would suck, but they're cheaper and give damage as a tradeoff.
Hexdrinker also means you can (mainly) go straight to BT instead of getting the NMM for GA, since you'll have enough MR at the time, so it might be alright. It's hard to test, getting a solo lane against Akali who's not bad and going long enough to build.
I don't see how building hexdrinker is going to make much of a difference versus Akali. It only works for you because they get baited by hexdrinker's passive and towerdive you. Otherwise, you having hexdrinker and some ragtag items is just going to make you a bigger food for akali once she finishes gunblade and just roll you because you didn't get to your big AD items fast enough to compete.
How does 30 MR and a 300 magic damage absorbing shield not good against someone who deals mainly burst magic damage? Her Q, Q proc, passive, and R all deal Magic damage, the only thing that does not is E, which isn't super high damage as it is.
I'd skip on Wriggle's with this, getting Vamp Scepter after and going straight for BT. That way, I'm not missing out on gold spending for the most part and still getting a decent amount of AD (35 from Hex) for my money.
However, of course this is theorycraft. I rarely go against an Akali solo, so I'm just putting new ideas out there.
It's not going to help you win the lane because Akali will outsustain you. You are putting yourself behind on your absurd AD scaling by building some magic resist item that just means it'll take slightly longer for Akali to wear you down and kill you.
Well, honestly, I think it depends. If the Akali is aggressive, I'd try this. If they're not, and I'm out-exchanging them as is, obviously it's not necessary. But in the end, no one is the best player period, so out there there is probably a better Akali than I am Riven, and if they're super pressuring me and I'm constantly going back from the damage, I think this is a nice alternative.
I'm not suggesting that this is the "go-to counter AP laning" build, but I think it'd be something interesting to try in certain scenarios.
What do you guys think about cleanse/tele instead of flash/tele? it seems like she has enough mobility to escape ganks assuming you're not constantly spamming your spells.
on the topic of hexdrinker+vs vs wriggles, the difference is only about 650 considering they have another ap carry mid. It's also a pain to free farm against an akali after lvl 6 in order to be able to get enough cs for your core items.
To be fair, if I'm having trouble in a lane I'd always pick up a counter item with a Wriggles. Wriggles offers you crazy powerful lane sustain to combo with that counter item. If it's AP (like Akali) and I'm having trouble I'd pick up some Null-Magic Mantles and finish that Wriggles and Mercury Tread's quickly. If I'm still not doing well, then it's a Hexdrinker, but that's the extreme. It's better to have a Hexdrinker + Wriggles and be able to farm against the AP then it is to be zoned and unable to farm. If you can manage it, the Bloodthirster and Guardian Angel rush are so good though, I've even weaned myself off getting the Brutalizer and a Doran's Blade before hand. Just because it's that good of an item combo. You know, the more I even consider it, the less likely I'd be to even finish the Hexdrinker. I'd rather pick up 1 or 2 extra Null-Magic Mantles or a Negatron Cloak. People underestimate how effective just the single resist/armor item can be during the laning phase.
Honestly I don't find Akali as big of a deal as you guys are mentioning. I used to main Akali before all of the hype and because of that hype I tried out and then switched to Riven. Akali's sustain and harass pre-6 are terrible unless you stand in her shroud on purpose and let her trigger multiple marks. Typically she will throw a Mark and drop a Shroud to zone you. Use Valor to absorb the Mark and Ki Shout to harass her in the shroud. Then you can usually just walk out to avoid a triggered mark (or Broken Wings out if you want to be sure). Without the shroud you have superior control, if she goes to tag a creep you Valor and Ki Shout in her face. If you have the advantage you can always Broken Wings spam in her shroud which should put even more pressure on her, but she will probably get a triggered mark on you. Even then, a single triggered Mark isn't that painful if you are properly runed.
I have been running Flat Armor, Flat MR, and 6 in the Defensive Masteries however. Starting with 50 MR against an Akali who usually only has 2/15% MPen is amusing. If she has anymore, she lacks either spell vamp or pots early making it really easy to zone her out.
Maybe trying Cloth Armor or Null Magic Mantle starts could make things easier, but honestly I haven't had troubles with her using standard Boots of Speed starts. Could also try picking up Valor and Ki Shout before Broken Wings as a more defensive start, but again I just haven't needed to experiment. It's possible I've not met a good Akali yet, but from my point of view I can't see where they could improve against me. Even if I did, I'd make it important to pick up that Null Magic Mantle early. Riven can have over 80 MR with just a single Null Magic Mantle at level 5. Between Valor, Ki Shout, and Lifesteal I can outlane her even with her Ultimate at that point. I think though, I'm going to get my brother to play a good 10 1v1 top lane games with me as Riven vs. Akali. From what everyone is saying, I have to be missing something. It just doesn't seem that hard to me.
After all the theorycrafting, I gotta admit Hexdrinker sounds better on paper than it does in game :\
Wriggle's with safe farm play quick building NMM and GA alongside your BFS just works better. The shield saved my bacon many times, but really only early game. Once you get to mid/late game, its effectiveness doesn't carry through as well.
Except against Karthus. I always get one then, cuz fuck that guy.
Edit
Akali's not terribly hard in lane with smart play. You know when she's coming, because you can see the mark, obviously. Eat the throw, dance around or just E and eat some of the incoming damage, then stun her. Q makes her pretty predictable, because it basically screams "I'm coming to attack you right now", so you can run, shield, charge Q, or even just get ready to stun her. I'm really learning to read opponents playing as Riven, which is cool.
navi, have you had any problems against certain champs? i reallly want to buy her but there are a few other 6300 champs i'd like to buy ><. just making sure if she good all round like laning udyr before i buy hehe
If you liked her during free week then go ahead by all means Haven't yet lost a lane that wasn't due to a mistake or jungle gank (in terms of pure laning power level) except some really kinky GP that dyrus was running, but I misruned for it and could have probably fb'd him if I had my armor runepage.
but like lanedyr she is pretty terrible 1v2 probably not relevant in solo q at least
The first replay bugs out at 8minutes and the second one you were like 10-0 at 10 minutes, or something pretty ridiculous like that. Do you have a closer game?
my computer crashed so these are replays that i took today on a different comp, sorry ill add more later i was getting pretty fed second game but the gameplay leading up to that is relevant i think
in fact 2nd replay is probably more relevant to laning in general since there wasn't some long ass level 1 teamfight
On October 10 2011 13:08 Navi wrote: what makes you think she is a terrible top solo? i have beaten many garens and the like in lane with her.
the lack of early survivability in your builds perhaps lead to your bad solo top experiences.
maxing q, while having more potential max burst in one exchange, is worse in the midgame because your cds on w and e are relatively long. E and W's scaling is similar to q's (better if you only get two q's on the enemy in terms of damage mitigated / dealt) but their cds scale per rank whereas q's doesn't.
Terrible is probably a poor choice of words. I just think that there are far better choices than her for top lane. To be honest, the best place for Riven to be in a standard lineup is definitely the jungle.
Also, you are correct when saying that Q is not the best skill to max first. Ki burst is the best skill to max first. I actually meant to type W > Q > E, I made a mistake because I use custom hotkeys.
On October 10 2011 13:08 Navi wrote: what makes you think she is a terrible top solo? i have beaten many garens and the like in lane with her.
the lack of early survivability in your builds perhaps lead to your bad solo top experiences.
maxing q, while having more potential max burst in one exchange, is worse in the midgame because your cds on w and e are relatively long. E and W's scaling is similar to q's (better if you only get two q's on the enemy in terms of damage mitigated / dealt) but their cds scale per rank whereas q's doesn't.
Terrible is probably a poor choice of words. I just think that there are far better choices than her for top lane. To be honest, the best place for Riven to be in a standard lineup is definitely the jungle.
Also, you are correct when saying that Q is not the best skill to max first. Ki burst is the best skill to max first. I actually meant to type W > Q > E, I made a mistake because I use custom hotkeys.
Why? You make this assertion but you don't back it up. Top is the afk-farm lane, and Riven makes the best use of the afk-farm lane out of any champ in the game. Just simply going even with anyone is better for you simply because of how you outscale anybody, and there are lots of people she'll shit on with her ridiculous levels 1-3. Her jungle is nice, but I don't feel it's compelling enough to make up for the fact that you'll come out of laning phase 30-40 creeps behind where you'd be top lane, and you'd need to make up that farm difference midgame (much harder when you don't have a summoner spell slot for Teleport to split-push with).
And again, why Q over E? The damage gain from Q is not that good (only 20 per hit per rank), and E is pretty critical to your survivability in fights (4 seconds off the CD is pretty noticeable).
Aw yeah, was on a losing streak playing AD range, switched to Navi build Riven, went 15-3-16. BT/GA/IE so gooooood. Never die always kill huehuehue.
I say the same thing about Jungle a lot. Jungle Riven is weaker than Lane Riven, but Jungle Riven is actually really good and better than a lot of Junglers out there. She's not "tier 1" or whatever (tiers are silly), so I'd not pick her over Udyr or Trundle or something, but she's a rather viable pick if you're looking for a Jungler. Good ganks even pre 6, decent counter-jungling or counter-counter-jungling.
On October 20 2011 23:57 Requizen wrote: Bah, any tips about laning against Jax solo top? He just far outdamage/stuns me and I can't escape him, sucks so bad. Wat do?
you're doing it wrong. Riven outdamages like, everyone in lane, it's pretty fucking absurd. In my 1st game on Riven, I outdamaged a Garen in lane.
On October 20 2011 23:57 Requizen wrote: Bah, any tips about laning against Jax solo top? He just far outdamage/stuns me and I can't escape him, sucks so bad. Wat do?
you're doing it wrong. Riven outdamages like, everyone in lane, it's pretty fucking absurd. In my 1st game on Riven, I outdamaged a Garen in lane.
Really? I never get that impression in my games. I run arpen reds, armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, AD quints. Start cloth 5. What have you been doing, because I honestly don't feel my damage is up to par until wriggles is done.
Against weak lanes I'd run that page, otherwise I'd run defensive quints (against Garen I came to lane with like 60 something armor). I dunno man, against melees who have to eat your Qs to last hit, you deal a shit ton of damage by just facerolling your combo.
On October 21 2011 00:11 Mogwai wrote: Against weak lanes I'd run that page, otherwise I'd run defensive quints (against Garen I came to lane with like 60 something armor). I dunno man, against melees who have to eat your Qs to last hit, you deal a shit ton of damage by just facerolling your combo.
That's the thing though, they don't go in to last hit at my Elo. I'm trying to farm and use Q to keep them away, but Jax'll just charge in and smack me around, then hop away onto a friendly minion before I can finish my combo. Whenever I trade, it seems, I always come out with lower damage, and I don't entirely know why.
I dunno what you mean by "trying to far and use Q to keep them away", but if Jax is using his leap to get away, LOL at you still taking enough damage to QQ about it.
On October 21 2011 00:30 Mogwai wrote: I dunno what you mean by "trying to far and use Q to keep them away", but if Jax is using his leap to get away, LOL at you still taking enough damage to QQ about it.
Yeah, I generally just suck at playing melee characters haha. I'm never sure when to engage and hit the enemy or when to just farm. It's a lot easier on ranged characters
if he could get to level 7 or so without getting dumped on, Yorrick would probably win, but I think he'd have a hell of a time making it that far without getting diced up.
On October 21 2011 00:11 Mogwai wrote: Against weak lanes I'd run that page, otherwise I'd run defensive quints (against Garen I came to lane with like 60 something armor). I dunno man, against melees who have to eat your Qs to last hit, you deal a shit ton of damage by just facerolling your combo.
That's the thing though, they don't go in to last hit at my Elo. I'm trying to farm and use Q to keep them away, but Jax'll just charge in and smack me around, then hop away onto a friendly minion before I can finish my combo. Whenever I trade, it seems, I always come out with lower damage, and I don't entirely know why.
teleport
if you've been last hitting well, you should be way ahead of him once you get your items even if you fall short on getting a wriggles - especially at early levels
not sure what that runes that jax was running, but his combo usually eats up a lot of mana early on
On October 21 2011 00:11 Mogwai wrote: Against weak lanes I'd run that page, otherwise I'd run defensive quints (against Garen I came to lane with like 60 something armor). I dunno man, against melees who have to eat your Qs to last hit, you deal a shit ton of damage by just facerolling your combo.
That's the thing though, they don't go in to last hit at my Elo. I'm trying to farm and use Q to keep them away, but Jax'll just charge in and smack me around, then hop away onto a friendly minion before I can finish my combo. Whenever I trade, it seems, I always come out with lower damage, and I don't entirely know why.
teleport
if you've been last hitting well, you should be way ahead of him once you get your items even if you fall short on getting a wriggles - especially at early levels
not sure what that runes that jax was running, but his combo usually eats up a lot of mana early on
Meh, that's a flaw of mine. I don't like going back, because then I know I'm losing lane, so I always stay in too long and die.
It was a lot easier once I finished Wriggles and hit 6, but until that point I just felt like I was the weaker one in lane.
my impression of the vs yorick matchup was actually the opposite he does fairly well pre 6 (if you're chugging pots and stuff you don't die tho) but after you get wriggles or just post 6 if you know how to use your combo you can fk him up
I have been working on jungling with Riven. Anyone know some good advice/streams to watch? I feel like I am playing two completely different characters doing solo top vs jungle. Solo top you can semi-carry whereas jungle you just build to be an annoying disruptor. Any advice for a newer jungling riven would be welcome.
almost 70% on riven go 21-6-3 arp red armor yellow mr per lvl blue ad quint go wriggles bt then ga or atmog. but I guess im terrible and only at 1460ish elo so what I type doesnt matter. Max W first e second 1 in q. Q is awful till you get some real damage, rivens real damage is from w and her passive with ad items.
On October 21 2011 07:16 Hoban wrote: I have been working on jungling with Riven. Anyone know some good advice/streams to watch? I feel like I am playing two completely different characters doing solo top vs jungle. Solo top you can semi-carry whereas jungle you just build to be an annoying disruptor. Any advice for a newer jungling riven would be welcome.
From jungle I've been building Ghostblade and boots5 and playing more like an assassin, running in after the fight starts and beating the shit out of the squishies. You can still semi-carry, but you'll get the beefy items later.
How would you lane Riven vs Jarvan and actually win the lane? Came across one today and it just felt like we freefarmed all day. I opened cloth5pot into wriggles and he opened regrowth into philo. We could both farm, and neither could do enough damage to break the other's sustain, other than the occasional gank that made someone back. Any tips on how to win that lane, or is it just an equal matchup?
On October 21 2011 07:16 Hoban wrote: I have been working on jungling with Riven. Anyone know some good advice/streams to watch? I feel like I am playing two completely different characters doing solo top vs jungle. Solo top you can semi-carry whereas jungle you just build to be an annoying disruptor. Any advice for a newer jungling riven would be welcome.
From jungle I've been building Ghostblade and boots5 and playing more like an assassin, running in after the fight starts and beating the shit out of the squishies. You can still semi-carry, but you'll get the beefy items later.
How would you lane Riven vs Jarvan and actually win the lane? Came across one today and it just felt like we freefarmed all day. I opened cloth5pot into wriggles and he opened regrowth into philo. We could both farm, and neither could do enough damage to break the other's sustain, other than the occasional gank that made someone back. Any tips on how to win that lane, or is it just an equal matchup?
It goes one of two ways: either you both play aggressively, in which case Riven should win 100% of the time basically, or you freefarm and poke. He outrages you, so you can't force him into a fight if he doesn't want to, but you can run away much better, so he can't really initiate either.
I've had a lot of trouble against sustain bruisers like irelia and udyr who even if I do well early buy a wriggles or something and then rape me. I guess I need my own wriggles but even then it feels like they zone me pretty hard.
Everything else loldies tho.
I'm guessing it's just hard counter though. I found udyr easily than irelia because he has less front loaded burst and it's possible to kite with your 2342432 mini jumps. Irelia just gets like wriggles and sheen and bursts you for half your health every 8 seconds.
On October 25 2011 00:58 Slayer91 wrote: I've had a lot of trouble against sustain bruisers like irelia and udyr who even if I do well early buy a wriggles or something and then rape me. I guess I need my own wriggles but even then it feels like they zone me pretty hard.
Everything else loldies tho.
I'm guessing it's just hard counter though. I found udyr easily than irelia because he has less front loaded burst and it's possible to kite with your 2342432 mini jumps. Irelia just gets like wriggles and sheen and bursts you for half your health every 8 seconds.
Yeah, if they have more sustain, it generally turns into me camping under tower and farming. Once I have Wriggles and maybe boots, I feel much safer. Calling for ganks is almost necessary if they dive you a lot, though.
The thing about Riven is you don't mind trading farm with other toplaners because you scale so well if you build properly (5 AD ratios anybody? 3 AoE's, a shield, and a autoattack modifier lol)
I agree that good Irelias are a troublesome matchup, especially if they rush wriggles with you. Pre first back, I have no problem and feel that you definetly have the advantage in lane pre 7, but after her w starts ranking up and she gets a sustain item, she's very strong. But after you get a BF sword, you start dominating her in teamfights and 1v1 situations. If you're really having trouble in lane, you can considering picking up an additional cloth armor and chain vest (in general I don't like doing this because it really slows down the BT that much more, but if it stops you from dying whatever goes)
vs champs like irelia, nasus who are incredibly weak compared to you levels 1-4, i like to open dblade with flash ignite and try to get fb, works especially well if they open regrowth pendant.
Worth noting that Westrice has been playing Riven something like this as well. The only major difference I've seen is that he'll go for DBlades+Bruta in top matchups where he thinks he can get away with it instead of Wriggle's
Yea - like in my opinion you should get wriggles if they have a really strong sustain vs you in top lane. Normally I go with dblades into brut as well cause it makes you tankeir while increasing damage considerably while giving lifesteal.
But the rest of my build is pretty much what Navi does.
renek: open cloth 5 pot (lol) and go aggressive from level 1, if he doesn't open cloth 5 pot like most renekton's who think they're the strongest shit toplane and that they can always open boots3 then he will have to go back or die at level 2-3. armor runepage only solidifies your advantage if you own armor quints
irelia: i hate this matchup against irelias who rush wriggles with me, if they go gold/5 or something though its a playable matchup. you boss her around pre 6 and can kill her at 6 if she tries to stay at medium - lowish health. this matchup is probably the most flexible, dependent on summoners and builds from both sides. in terms of playstyle, just getting as much free damage as possible by using your e and w to force good trades for you (like if you can w or q your way in and e out, if she gets her stun off late or too early the trade is usually good for you; if you are just trying to brute force trades because she didn't open cloth5pot which imo toplaners against riven should do, then you can e->w in and trades will be good because she will have to damage through your shield or just run away for 1 second for the shield to run out). i'm willing to play this matchup with other people for more experience for myself and others, add me in game
gp: dependent on summoner spells. if you have summmoner spell parity (i.e. flash and 1 combatitive spell on both sides, or flash and teleport on both sides) you can crush him like you crush every other laner. if he has the summoner spell advantage which many solo queue GPs i've played against have had, then i play safe until level 2 because GP at level 1 is even more of a beast than riven just because that exhaust / ignite will own you against a GP that knows his limits well. bad GP's will run away when you start q'ing on them at level 1, good GP's will stand and fight and use their additional summoner and flash to secure the kill. at level 2 and on though riven's kit is just too strong to hold down, and if you ever get a lead in the lane its hard to lose it because she can come out ahead in trades by a large margin.
garen: like other toplaners, if riven runs enough armor on her runepage and cloth5pot, she shouldn't have trouble with garen. as in he's pretty damn helpless as he can start getting zoned from lane as soon as he runs out of health potions.
yorick: i don't have enough good experience against yorick to give good advice, would be willing to play against yorick players. but post wriggles you can dominate him hard, especially if he's building manamune / tear first.
teemo: again, not enough experience. ranged and casters are an interesting matchup though, and i generally just try to lasthit and get aggressive whenever my q's can bring me into aggro range. at level 3 you have so much mobility that even ranged people have trouble getting away; teemo's move quick makes this interesting, but his autoattack range is in turn so small that riven should be able to catch him.
akali and nasus: riven just poops on these guys so hard it's not even funny, every time i've run into one i've zoned or killed them very early. akalis in particular have this mentality that they are the best at level 1 in terms of trading and walking away from just about everybody, so if they ever q me instead of lasthitting a creep i just q and auto up to them and give them 3x the damage back and the qq ensues. nasus is nowhere near as strong as riven early on, so you can just pressure him to back really early, and always look for an opportunity if he ever gets to 200-250 hp to flash w auto q->auto-> e etc if he flashes to burst him. if he lasts in lane until level 6, try to gain the experience advantage and then r -> flash -> w -> r active burst him if he's low enough. but this usually isn't an issue because he's just so weak in lane lol
Any jungle Riven's out there? I'm doing research while I wait for levels to start jungling with her. I see a bunch of tanky DPS item builds, but I'm trying to shy away from that at least a little bit.
I've seen Stonewall and a couple people going 2-3DBlades or 1Dblade/wriggles early. Has anybody tried out a mix of those starts?
Does anybody have any links to videos of reputable players jungling with Riven(post hotfix)?
I play Riven in lane just fine but when I get to 30 I want to play with my friends and they need a jungler.
Riven is a great jungler. I've done DBlade starts, and I've done Wriggle's starts. Both work fine, but I find Wriggle's to be much more effective. Plus, the free ward goes a long way to give you map control. Of course, DBlade stacking will give you a lot of early game dominance, so you can take that into account if you want.
However, the health DBlade stacking gives isn't, in my opinion, equal to or better than the massive lifesteal and armor granted from Wriggle's. I could be wrong, but I feel stronger going into the mid game having a Wriggle's than a few Blades.
On October 28 2011 04:22 Requizen wrote: Riven is a great jungler. I've done DBlade starts, and I've done Wriggle's starts. Both work fine, but I find Wriggle's to be much more effective. Plus, the free ward goes a long way to give you map control. Of course, DBlade stacking will give you a lot of early game dominance, so you can take that into account if you want.
However, the health DBlade stacking gives isn't, in my opinion, equal to or better than the massive lifesteal and armor granted from Wriggle's. I could be wrong, but I feel stronger going into the mid game having a Wriggle's than a few Blades.
What od you usually get outside of wriggles and boots?
Ugh I am worthless in the jungle with Riven... once I died to blue and wraiths... twas embarassing (had the wrongest runepage you could have)
Idk i keep playing with my friend who is pretty good with Riven and we go bot with Riven with a not-actually-support-support (like zilean or blitz)... I guess it works out pretty well for us... Its so hard to out run her and she actually can do a shitton of damage...
@Gahlo, same as Navi's build. If you're been ganking a lot, you can get BFSword after boots, if not, just get Vamp Scepter and never die. Just rush BT after Wriggle's and Boots1, carry and gank all over the place.
@Cerise, Riven is great in lane, better than in jungle. That's the sentiment because she requires so much farm for her items, so if you farm well in lane you can get BT/GA/IE so fast and just crush the game like that.
I never start Blue in jungle, I just go Wolves-Wraiths-Golems-Gank or Red (or back if you fail). Starting blue has the CDR perk, but it's not necessary or worth it imo.
On October 28 2011 04:05 Navi wrote: @billy:renek, irelia, gp, garen, yorick, teemo, akali, nasus
renek: open cloth 5 pot (lol) and go aggressive from level 1, if he doesn't open cloth 5 pot like most renekton's who think they're the strongest shit toplane and that they can always open boots3 then he will have to go back or die at level 2-3. armor runepage only solidifies your advantage if you own armor quints
irelia: i hate this matchup against irelias who rush wriggles with me, if they go gold/5 or something though its a playable matchup. you boss her around pre 6 and can kill her at 6 if she tries to stay at medium - lowish health. this matchup is probably the most flexible, dependent on summoners and builds from both sides. in terms of playstyle, just getting as much free damage as possible by using your e and w to force good trades for you (like if you can w or q your way in and e out, if she gets her stun off late or too early the trade is usually good for you; if you are just trying to brute force trades because she didn't open cloth5pot which imo toplaners against riven should do, then you can e->w in and trades will be good because she will have to damage through your shield or just run away for 1 second for the shield to run out). i'm willing to play this matchup with other people for more experience for myself and others, add me in game
gp: dependent on summoner spells. if you have summmoner spell parity (i.e. flash and 1 combatitive spell on both sides, or flash and teleport on both sides) you can crush him like you crush every other laner. if he has the summoner spell advantage which many solo queue GPs i've played against have had, then i play safe until level 2 because GP at level 1 is even more of a beast than riven just because that exhaust / ignite will own you against a GP that knows his limits well. bad GP's will run away when you start q'ing on them at level 1, good GP's will stand and fight and use their additional summoner and flash to secure the kill. at level 2 and on though riven's kit is just too strong to hold down, and if you ever get a lead in the lane its hard to lose it because she can come out ahead in trades by a large margin.
garen: like other toplaners, if riven runs enough armor on her runepage and cloth5pot, she shouldn't have trouble with garen. as in he's pretty damn helpless as he can start getting zoned from lane as soon as he runs out of health potions.
yorick: i don't have enough good experience against yorick to give good advice, would be willing to play against yorick players. but post wriggles you can dominate him hard, especially if he's building manamune / tear first.
teemo: again, not enough experience. ranged and casters are an interesting matchup though, and i generally just try to lasthit and get aggressive whenever my q's can bring me into aggro range. at level 3 you have so much mobility that even ranged people have trouble getting away; teemo's move quick makes this interesting, but his autoattack range is in turn so small that riven should be able to catch him.
akali and nasus: riven just poops on these guys so hard it's not even funny, every time i've run into one i've zoned or killed them very early. akalis in particular have this mentality that they are the best at level 1 in terms of trading and walking away from just about everybody, so if they ever q me instead of lasthitting a creep i just q and auto up to them and give them 3x the damage back and the qq ensues. nasus is nowhere near as strong as riven early on, so you can just pressure him to back really early, and always look for an opportunity if he ever gets to 200-250 hp to flash w auto q->auto-> e etc if he flashes to burst him. if he lasts in lane until level 6, try to gain the experience advantage and then r -> flash -> w -> r active burst him if he's low enough. but this usually isn't an issue because he's just so weak in lane lol
On October 28 2011 04:22 Requizen wrote: Riven is a great jungler. I've done DBlade starts, and I've done Wriggle's starts. Both work fine, but I find Wriggle's to be much more effective. Plus, the free ward goes a long way to give you map control. Of course, DBlade stacking will give you a lot of early game dominance, so you can take that into account if you want.
However, the health DBlade stacking gives isn't, in my opinion, equal to or better than the massive lifesteal and armor granted from Wriggle's. I could be wrong, but I feel stronger going into the mid game having a Wriggle's than a few Blades.
What od you usually get outside of wriggles and boots?
I've been playing Riven exclusively as a Jungler, usually because someone else always calls for solo top . Anyway the runes I run on Riven are:
7x Armour Pen Marks 2x Flat Damage Marks 9x Flat Armour Seals 9x MR/lvl Glyphs 3x Flat Damage Quints
Masteries are 21/0/9.
I've come to a point where I always start with a DBlade first, I used to go 2 DBlades into more beefier items, however I think going one DBlade then transitioning into Wriggles works out best because of the stats you get from it really help out when you try to go for your next core items. Starting out with a DBlade first for jungle really provides for safe jungling as well, the only scary part of it is when you going for your first rotation of Wolves > Wraiths > Golems that the golems may get you down low. However you can counter this by making sure you have a really healthy start by having someone AoE or damage the wolf camp as you start it (make sure you start attacking it first, don't let someone leash the wolves).
Additionally, I feel that going for the DBlade first enables you to go for that counter jungle and when exchanging blows with the enemy jungler you can easily come out ahead. This is all provided that you know where they are starting and who they're jungling with. Also, I take DBlade first because it really boosts your skill scalings with the stats it provides, without having to sacrifice runes for something like 9x Flat Damage Marks.
Anyway to answer your question, I follow closely to Navi's build and I start to build towards a main damage item that uses the BF sword - Infinity Edge or Bloodthirster is up to you. Personally I think if you go for Wriggles you can hold off getting that first Bloodthirster and get the Infinity Edge for that raw damage. Otherwise if you happened to have taken the 2 DBlade path then getting that Bloodthirster is better.
Of course, if you find yourself that CC is a big problem, or that being bursted down is really annoying, then opt to take a Quick Silver Sash or a Giant's Belt somewhere in between, I feel those two items really help. What you choose to upgrade the Giant's Belt is up to you really, Warmogs and Frozen Mallet both work equally well.
While I still like Wriggle's better (logically it should be the best choice against top-laners you want to free-farm against), I think the amount of early-midgame burst 2xDBlade+Bruta can give you should be considered. After 2xDBlade+Bruta, his full combo was literally capable of one-shotting the Teemo he was against in lane. It's also worth noting that Westrice took Ignite instead of TP to further this combo potential. I don't think it plays to Riven's strengths (I think West is trying too hard to build her toward a midgame assassin-y power curve, and not as a late-game carry), but it definitely works.
The other salient point is how different his masteries were--15/0/15 reaching for movespeed and flash masteries instead of the end-tier offense masteries. Again, not sure if I agree with it because of how her passive procs crit, making Lethality insanely good on her, but it's still food for thought.
I don't understand how you can criticize him not playing to rivens strength when he gets fed in every single game and wins game by crushing every midgame fight. I actually think riven falls off a lot in lategame because armour and health scale up you're much stronger before people hit 18 and fights are smaller and less compact and its harder to burst you down.
I also don't buy into the wriggles logic since you're all about trading them down and threatening a kill with ulti if you have to buy wriggles its to comprise a lane you're already going to lose, unless they are just super good at poking.
EDIT: I "beat" riven as nasus by just letting myself get zoned from some of the cs and farming a lot especially under tower and just sustaining her damage and she died 2 or 3 times to ganks since she worked so hard trying to kill me when I just played safe and I ended up getting more cs out of it. I think riven is only strong against laners who don't have any sustain otherwise you just push to their tower and they heal there.
Burst melee champions are always somewhat of a volatile thing. Lategame you can die under CC very, very easily and you will only be able to burst down squishies fast.
She doesn't have the strongest scaling in the game, just best AD scaling. Steriods are pretty huge because when you have nearly 2.5 attacks per second at nearly 100% crit with nearly 300 AD (lategame tristana) you're putting out a hell of a lot more damage than riven is.
you can call it burst if you want to (and yes she has burst with flash / e -> w and q's and rs) but the fact that her qwe have low cds along with her passive and good base aspd give her great sustained damage in teamfights as well
most AD carries lack the cc or small scale mobility that riven has, and very few have comparable AoE. 6 item tristana is certainly one of or the highest 1v1 damage in the game, but riven has the kit (e +q and w to get and stun the carry, and 3rd q to knock up, and r to execute if they jump or flash away) to 1v1 them even lategame. the fact that your passive with infinity edge and 2-3 other AD items can do over 1k damage in crits to champions means that you definetly have 1hko potential in 1v1s against squishies, and that you do good damage even to tanks.
like on most physical damage dealers, brutalizer has its place, especially when you gain a lead early in lane. if you can do true physical damage early game it usually seals a lead very easily, as well as giving you more oomph midgame. going ignite or exhaust definetly gives you more lane strength and instaburst potential, but it comes down to whether you prefer that or the additional dragon control and farm flexibility that teleport gives you. its all playstyle
On October 30 2011 02:19 Slayer91 wrote: Burst melee champions are always somewhat of a volatile thing. Lategame you can die under CC very, very easily and you will only be able to burst down squishies fast.
She doesn't have the strongest scaling in the game, just best AD scaling. Steriods are pretty huge because when you have nearly 2.5 attacks per second at nearly 100% crit with nearly 300 AD (lategame tristana) you're putting out a hell of a lot more damage than riven is.
That's the thing. Late-game, she's not a burst melee champion. You're 100% a sustained damage autoattack monster late-game, which is why CDR isn't overly important. Your skills are only there for utility + to keep your passive rolling, which makes every one of your autoattacks worth 1.8 times the amount someone else's would be with the same AD (passive + ult AD multiplier).
Riven's R is stronger steroid than Tristana's Q late-game because it has multiplicative gold value. Tristana's Q is essentially worth a fixed 2k-ish gold (2 Recurve Bows) whereas the gold value of Riven's R goes up as the game progresses because it's gold value is based on her own AD (on gold value, it passes Trist's Q at around 350 bonus AD--obviously unattainable midgame, but actually reachable in 6-item scenarios). The only comparable steroids are Kog-maw's W and Vayne's W, and their gold value multiplies off enemy defensive stats, not your own offensive stats. And that's not even considering the insane uptime Riven's R has.
I don't understand this argument about comparing steriods. If you think riven is better lategame than tristana then jax is the best champion in the game. There is no way riven is going to get close to trist in a teamfight and she can like 4 shot her. Riven doesn't have very good damage against tanky champs and will struggle to get to the squishies.
And the thing about her AD steriod on passive is it means getting attack speed isn't useful at all so the steriod on AD won't get full value because you can't scale it was attack speed.
I still think melee range is the main problem though. You can never afford to build the same items an AD carry will because you'll just die.
On October 30 2011 03:30 Gahlo wrote: Well, an AD caster item has been in testing for a couple weeks, accoridng to Morello, wonder what it's introduction will bring to Riven's playstyle.
People on forums crying and eventual scaling nerfs because she has an item she synergizes too well with
On October 30 2011 03:30 Gahlo wrote: Well, an AD caster item has been in testing for a couple weeks, accoridng to Morello, wonder what it's introduction will bring to Riven's playstyle.
iunno...i always thought manamune was an AD caster item :O
anyway, how do you feel about 2 dblades instead of wriggles? i've seen westrice open with boots and buy 2 dblades on his first trip back. his choice seems much cheaper and yet still effective. and you can always get a vamp scepter to maximize sustain.
On November 01 2011 02:40 billy5000 wrote: still saving up to buy riven..
anyway, how do you feel about 2 dblades instead of wriggles? i've seen westrice open with boots and buy 2 dblades on his first trip back. his choice seems much cheaper and yet still effective. and you can always get a vamp scepter to maximize sustain.
what's your take? :\
Situational, and based on playstyle. West's 2xDBlade+Bruta trades lane sustain, farming power, and gold value (you do have to sell the DBlades later, and the Wriggle's is generating gold value through the wards) for early game burst and fighting power. It plays her toward a more mid-game assassin-y power curve, but you DO have to get kills off of it to make it worthwhile. Riven is ok trading farm with basically anybody she goes against top lane, so unless you expect 2xDBlade+Bruta to actually net you kills (unlikely against tanky top laners that come to lane with 80+ armor and 5 potions), it's better off to transition into a harass or free-farm lane than to try and burst-kill people.
I'll also note that in one of EG's scrims, West went Wriggle's instead of 2xDblade+Bruta. It's the safer build, and I'm guessing he opted for it either based on matchup, or on the fact that forcing solo kills in a competitive game is pretty damn unlikely.
When choosing whether or not to get Wriggles you really only have to consider your early game. If you don't need to have assured successful early game then you don't need it. Essentially, if you can push your opponent out of the lane and not need any sustain to do so then it's perfectly fine to skip it. There are quite a few match ups she can do this too, not to mention there are a few matchups you can go Brutalizer + Vampiric Scepter and be pretty well off as well. The idea with any champion is use your early game to snowball your late game. You want only as many early/mid game items as you need to push yourself into that snowball of a Bloodthirster, Guardian Angel, and Infinity Edge.
On a side note, I recall the designer of Riven saying that crit does not scale on her passive. Was I mistaken?
I don't know if the bonus AD scales with Crit, but I don't think it does. Her autos can crit, so crit isn't terrible on her from IE. I'd just rather have massive AD tho.
On November 01 2011 23:07 Ayestes wrote: On a side note, I recall the designer of Riven saying that crit does not scale on her passive. Was I mistaken?
Testing during her release patch gave numbers showing that her passive damage is doubled with her crits. This may have been ninja nerfed since then, seeing as I haven't tested since.
On November 01 2011 23:07 Ayestes wrote: On a side note, I recall the designer of Riven saying that crit does not scale on her passive. Was I mistaken?
Testing during her release patch gave numbers showing that her passive damage is doubled with her crits. This may have been ninja nerfed since then, seeing as I haven't tested since.
Just tested. Passive does not crit. Initially I thought it did but I was thrown off by havoc + lethality.
On November 02 2011 22:39 billy5000 wrote: any advice on playing against cho and singed? after lvl 6, i can't seem to be doing anything other than farm under my tower..
however, i have to note that i denied them extremely hard prior to lvl 6. is that my only timing window or something?
Tanks are tanky. There are very few champions who can trade well with a tanky champion until built. Just try to farm under tower like you said, call for ganks, etc. Cho in particular has absurd sustain, so trying to outlast him in lane is just begging to be punished.
Navi, which combos do you use to harass or trade hits? I was watching westrice play, and it seemed like he goes q,q,w(auto),q then e to back up or e,q,w(auto) then qq to back up (not 100% sure about either combo). However, I've been playing way differently as I just trade hits and usually come out ahead unless my opponent is someone like rumble. In other words, my combos are never consistent so I don't have the best timings/positioning with them. Before I start making bad habits, I'd like to know some of the more effective ones.
On November 06 2011 09:43 billy5000 wrote: Navi, which combos do you use to harass or trade hits? I was watching westrice play, and it seemed like he goes q,q,w(auto),q then e to back up or e,q,w(auto) then qq to back up (not 100% sure about either combo). However, I've been playing way differently as I just trade hits and usually come out ahead unless my opponent is someone like rumble. In other words, my combos are never consistent so I don't have the best timings/positioning with them. Before I start making bad habits, I'd like to know some of the more effective ones.
westrice triest to go q, auto, q, auto, w, auto, q, auto. take away one auto if he isn't in reach with his first q.
You mention that Irelia is strong vs Riven, I've played Irelia's side of the match up and, well I feel very weak vs Riven, I play very defensive early, start cloth + pots with as red, armor yellow, mr blue and ms quints. w>q>e.
What can I change from my setup? should I be more aggresive as I level my w? or am I just that bad?
On November 06 2011 10:38 gaizka wrote: You mention that Irelia is strong vs Riven, I've played Irelia's side of the match up and, well I feel very weak vs Riven, I play very defensive early, start cloth + pots with as red, armor yellow, mr blue and ms quints. w>q>e.
What can I change from my setup? should I be more aggresive as I level my w? or am I just that bad?
Riven has no sustain, you do. Use that to your advantage.
On November 06 2011 10:38 gaizka wrote: You mention that Irelia is strong vs Riven, I've played Irelia's side of the match up and, well I feel very weak vs Riven, I play very defensive early, start cloth + pots with as red, armor yellow, mr blue and ms quints. w>q>e.
What can I change from my setup? should I be more aggresive as I level my w? or am I just that bad?
Can you be more specific about what is causing the problems? In general just try to get autos onto creeps or him for W healing whenever he can't punish you for doing it. Armor pen marks would probably help but I doubt it will really make a difference.
I still don't see how Irelia is strong against Riven, she loses damage trades too badly. Like, all you have to do with Riven is not fight her when W is up and you'll either outdamage her or run her oom at which point she's helpless. Just rush Lantern and Riven's good to go.
irelia and tryndamere have the advantage of having great sustain off of their autoattacks, and both have autoattack modifiers (w and trynd's crits) that can make a prolonged laning phase pre wriggles tough if they play it correctly as long as you dont let her get creep advantage it should be a playable lane if either side is allowed to let their side push on the other while it does open them up to ganks it becomes impossible for the other to trade hits (and thus more difficult to lasthit) as long as they build wriggles lantern with you if they have a lead its hard for them to lose it
disclaimer; this is with both sides running 25 armor pages (which in my opinion stomps others who don't run 25 armor by the way it works, and is great on sustained champions in particular) i think riven has the advantage against irelia pre 6 in lane but tryndamere that runs armor and cloth5pot is strong against riven
I have a general question about both Riven and playing top lane. I don't typically play top lane. I usually play AD or Jungle. However, I've just loved Riven since she came out, and I just started to play her in human games. I've had some weird variance in using her though.
For one game, I played against Xin'Zhao. I initiated a level 1 fight and he overcommitted into the turret and I got first blood. As soon as he came back to lane, I was level 3 and he was only level 1 and I steam rolled him again. After that, he was thoroughly zoned and it was a stomp, even though my team was 4v5 (18-0-12). I felt super strong after the first blood and I don't think I could have lost after that.
For another game, I played against Talon. Talon got cocky and tried to zone me and stand behind my minions. I waited for Rake to go out and then I initiated a level 1 fight. I was not quite at 100% health from pulling golem, and though I probably would have beaten the Talon, he leveled up to level 2 during the fight and used his new skill and health to eke me out. After that though, I couldn't gain any traction. His harass was just harder than mine, especially with two Dorans, than I could muster. The rest of the game played out weirdly, but that's neither here nor there.
So, my question is this: is this a general way that the top lane works out? Seems so momentum based and reliant on the jungler to reset the power balance if someone gets the upper hand. Or, is this a property of Riven? Is she very momentum based so that she either streaks good or streaks bad? I know I didn't play from behind well at all. So basically, I'm asking, what was the Xin supposed to do against me in game 1 and what should I have done against Talon in game 2? How do you play from behind with Riven against a strong gap closer like Talon?
xin: dont dive against talon: use your pot before you start engaging especially if you're going with the mindset of going in (since u took some damage from minigolems, imo ur mid should leash the aggro while u just give some damage), or go in in a scenario where level up can't fuck it up (if he's past your minions and you engage he's going to eat way more creep aggro than you anyway lol)
build armor against AD bursters like talon if you're behind, an extra cloth or chain before your core is fine since they build into great items on riven anyway
top in general can be fairly momentum based, but the most momentum-y champs are probably akali and talon if either get a huge lead they can 100% zone or burst you down very quickly
On November 07 2011 13:50 Takkara wrote: I have a general question about both Riven and playing top lane. I don't typically play top lane. I usually play AD or Jungle. However, I've just loved Riven since she came out, and I just started to play her in human games. I've had some weird variance in using her though.
For one game, I played against Xin'Zhao. I initiated a level 1 fight and he overcommitted into the turret and I got first blood. As soon as he came back to lane, I was level 3 and he was only level 1 and I steam rolled him again. After that, he was thoroughly zoned and it was a stomp, even though my team was 4v5 (18-0-12). I felt super strong after the first blood and I don't think I could have lost after that.
For another game, I played against Talon. Talon got cocky and tried to zone me and stand behind my minions. I waited for Rake to go out and then I initiated a level 1 fight. I was not quite at 100% health from pulling golem, and though I probably would have beaten the Talon, he leveled up to level 2 during the fight and used his new skill and health to eke me out. After that though, I couldn't gain any traction. His harass was just harder than mine, especially with two Dorans, than I could muster. The rest of the game played out weirdly, but that's neither here nor there.
So, my question is this: is this a general way that the top lane works out? Seems so momentum based and reliant on the jungler to reset the power balance if someone gets the upper hand. Or, is this a property of Riven? Is she very momentum based so that she either streaks good or streaks bad? I know I didn't play from behind well at all. So basically, I'm asking, what was the Xin supposed to do against me in game 1 and what should I have done against Talon in game 2? How do you play from behind with Riven against a strong gap closer like Talon?
Know your matchups. Ideally, you're never going to give away first blood and your opponent won't ever give you first blood. In other words, don't play aggressively. Test the waters. You can still trade hits at lvl 1 (assuming you have creep advantage), but never over-commit. However, if either of your situations inevitably occurs, ganks are usually the best response. Still, you most likely have to give up some cs end up last hitting under your tower.
A general rule of thumb of matchups at top: if your opponent can outpush you from level 1, he probably has the upper hand early on (one of the reasons why rumble wins most of his matchups). There are some exceptions, though. Talon won that fight partially because he had creep advantage, and that's why it felt like he had a stronger harass than yours. Note, I'm only assuming he had creep advantage because of his rake and the fact that you mentioned him leveling up but not you.
someone actually just asked me that yesterday ww usually has the ability to trade damage very nicely because the way his q works, however riven outputs too much damage for ww to heal it all up with both opening cloth 5 pot, while they both have 5 pots (usually pre 6) riven definetly has the advantage if ww tries to keep up q trades he'll run oom quickly
not to mention that riven is easier to gank for pre 6 because of her damage and small cc chaining ability and post 6 while ww has great set up cc riven has the damage to be easy to gank for as well
after lantern if you manage to e most of his q's you shouldn't have trouble at all because you deal too much damage for him to heal up
I feel very weak jungling with Riven for the first couple of jungle paths. The ganks are pretty nice but require some teammate assistance. Overall I enter the late game a little behind on farm, but don't have a ton of trouble getting to the core of BT/Wriggle/Boots/GA. Do most people notice a bit of an early game hitch with Riven in the jungle? I had to chug a lot of pots because I was just losing way too much life even with a vamp scepter to the big buff camps.
On November 12 2011 14:12 Takkara wrote: I feel very weak jungling with Riven for the first couple of jungle paths. The ganks are pretty nice but require some teammate assistance. Overall I enter the late game a little behind on farm, but don't have a ton of trouble getting to the core of BT/Wriggle/Boots/GA. Do most people notice a bit of an early game hitch with Riven in the jungle? I had to chug a lot of pots because I was just losing way too much life even with a vamp scepter to the big buff camps.
On November 12 2011 14:12 Takkara wrote: I feel very weak jungling with Riven for the first couple of jungle paths. The ganks are pretty nice but require some teammate assistance. Overall I enter the late game a little behind on farm, but don't have a ton of trouble getting to the core of BT/Wriggle/Boots/GA. Do most people notice a bit of an early game hitch with Riven in the jungle? I had to chug a lot of pots because I was just losing way too much life even with a vamp scepter to the big buff camps.
Try starting Doran's Blade.
That's not going to help that problem, its just going to make any early-game ganks deadly IF you can keep your health up without any pots at all.
On November 12 2011 14:12 Takkara wrote: I feel very weak jungling with Riven for the first couple of jungle paths. The ganks are pretty nice but require some teammate assistance. Overall I enter the late game a little behind on farm, but don't have a ton of trouble getting to the core of BT/Wriggle/Boots/GA. Do most people notice a bit of an early game hitch with Riven in the jungle? I had to chug a lot of pots because I was just losing way too much life even with a vamp scepter to the big buff camps.
Try starting Doran's Blade.
That's not going to help that problem, its just going to make any early-game ganks deadly IF you can keep your health up without any pots at all.
Next thing I can suggest is watching your Valor CD. Stonewall espouses starting QWEE before going into a priority and it's worked decently well for me, the lower cooldown and bigger shield is nice.
On November 12 2011 14:12 Takkara wrote: I feel very weak jungling with Riven for the first couple of jungle paths. The ganks are pretty nice but require some teammate assistance. Overall I enter the late game a little behind on farm, but don't have a ton of trouble getting to the core of BT/Wriggle/Boots/GA. Do most people notice a bit of an early game hitch with Riven in the jungle? I had to chug a lot of pots because I was just losing way too much life even with a vamp scepter to the big buff camps.
Try starting Doran's Blade.
That's not going to help that problem, its just going to make any early-game ganks deadly IF you can keep your health up without any pots at all.
You don't get BT and GA on jungle riven. That's a lane build you need to get BT fast and stack it up to be worth while. It's not really efficient otherwise.
Try something like wriggles, mercs, 2-3 dblades, warmogs, atmas. or wriggles,mercs,phage,brutalizer,hexdrinker,atmas if you think warmogs is a bad idea.
Thanks for the great guide Navi, I love playing Riven, and this guide helped me have a lot of fun.
Now for my question, anyone can give me advice on how to handle an Olaf top? I've had 2 games so far, and I feel his true damage really gets me.
The first game I won my lane, but wouldn't have without constant help from our jungler. The second game I lost quite badly, though it was partly due to my team fucking up a gank and getting olaf an easy kill.
In the end, I guess I just want a confirmation if Olaf is really as hard an opponent as I feel him to be, since I feel trades are not going well for me. I'm thinking of going some health very early, to negate the true damage a bit, do you guys think that's a good idea?
On November 12 2011 14:12 Takkara wrote: I feel very weak jungling with Riven for the first couple of jungle paths. The ganks are pretty nice but require some teammate assistance. Overall I enter the late game a little behind on farm, but don't have a ton of trouble getting to the core of BT/Wriggle/Boots/GA. Do most people notice a bit of an early game hitch with Riven in the jungle? I had to chug a lot of pots because I was just losing way too much life even with a vamp scepter to the big buff camps.
Try starting Doran's Blade.
That's not going to help that problem, its just going to make any early-game ganks deadly IF you can keep your health up without any pots at all.
You don't get BT and GA on jungle riven. That's a lane build you need to get BT fast and stack it up to be worth while. It's not really efficient otherwise.
Try something like wriggles, mercs, 2-3 dblades, warmogs, atmas. or wriggles,mercs,phage,brutalizer,hexdrinker,atmas if you think warmogs is a bad idea.
I don't really see why you'd play Riven if your intent was to go Atmogs. There are far better junglers for whom Atmogs makes sense. I can see switching up what you buy, but it's not THAT hard to get a BT coming out of the jungle and Riven can farm off waves and/or split push to stack it up just fine. If you go Atmogs, wouldn't that just ignore the strongest part of Riven which is her scaling?
On November 15 2011 07:06 snpnx wrote: Thanks for the great guide Navi, I love playing Riven, and this guide helped me have a lot of fun.
Now for my question, anyone can give me advice on how to handle an Olaf top? I've had 2 games so far, and I feel his true damage really gets me.
The first game I won my lane, but wouldn't have without constant help from our jungler. The second game I lost quite badly, though it was partly due to my team fucking up a gank and getting olaf an easy kill.
In the end, I guess I just want a confirmation if Olaf is really as hard an opponent as I feel him to be, since I feel trades are not going well for me. I'm thinking of going some health very early, to negate the true damage a bit, do you guys think that's a good idea?
my experiences are actually similar i've only played against solotop olaf twice first time was a loss because my noct got 2 shotted while trying to gank at level 3 for first blood second was a narrow victory with a noticeable mistake or two by him
olaf might be one of the cases in which i would get a dorans blade or two after or whilst getting wriggles to ensure that you don't come out too far behind in lane most other people can't zone you 100% because of your shield and because most can't trade with riven in exchanges efficiently but olaf's true damage chunks out damage much larger than your shield at those levels nearly instantly
olaf is winnable because in a long exchange your ult can deal more damage than him so with aid from a jungler to finish him off or with dorans blades i think it's playable, but tough
i'm willing to test this out as either olaf or riven, if you want add me in game ign is navitar
On November 13 2011 05:06 Deltablazy wrote: I need some advice on laning against gp. He's broken ofc, but something can be done atleast.
I run the runes/masteries of this thread.
The biggest thing I have found against GP is be super aggressive when you have the creep advantage. You actually can trade very effectively, even if he gets the lucky Parley crits. Just open cloth+5pots and keep the early level aggression up. He will be oom before you run out of potions as long as you aren't just sitting taking free parley hits. If you just focus on being extremely aggressive in the early levels (and making sure to use creep waves to your advantage) then you will come out ahead enough in lane to keep up with him at the higher levels. Just remember, be super aggressive but don't sacrifice CS for it. The entire point of the aggression is to keep him scared to CS while you can freefarm.
Side note: If you are quick enough, just keep a mental count of the Parrley CD and shield right as he uses it. The delay is very short but if you are anticipating it you can shield off a lot of the damage then proceed to hurt him badly.
On November 15 2011 07:12 Takkara wrote: I don't really see why you'd play Riven if your intent was to go Atmogs. There are far better junglers for whom Atmogs makes sense. I can see switching up what you buy, but it's not THAT hard to get a BT coming out of the jungle and Riven can farm off waves and/or split push to stack it up just fine. If you go Atmogs, wouldn't that just ignore the strongest part of Riven which is her scaling?
This was my exact thought, I follow this guide when I play Riven, but then I see the Rivens in normal mode build atmogs, and they go on large killing streaks like 15/4/x and such. She gets pretty unkillable with that high HP and shield, and her W is no joke either.
On November 15 2011 07:06 snpnx wrote: Thanks for the great guide Navi, I love playing Riven, and this guide helped me have a lot of fun.
Now for my question, anyone can give me advice on how to handle an Olaf top? I've had 2 games so far, and I feel his true damage really gets me.
The first game I won my lane, but wouldn't have without constant help from our jungler. The second game I lost quite badly, though it was partly due to my team fucking up a gank and getting olaf an easy kill.
In the end, I guess I just want a confirmation if Olaf is really as hard an opponent as I feel him to be, since I feel trades are not going well for me. I'm thinking of going some health very early, to negate the true damage a bit, do you guys think that's a good idea?
my experiences are actually similar i've only played against solotop olaf twice first time was a loss because my noct got 2 shotted while trying to gank at level 3 for first blood second was a narrow victory with a noticeable mistake or two by him
olaf might be one of the cases in which i would get a dorans blade or two after or whilst getting wriggles to ensure that you don't come out too far behind in lane most other people can't zone you 100% because of your shield and because most can't trade with riven in exchanges efficiently but olaf's true damage chunks out damage much larger than your shield at those levels nearly instantly
olaf is winnable because in a long exchange your ult can deal more damage than him so with aid from a jungler to finish him off or with dorans blades i think it's playable, but tough
i'm willing to test this out as either olaf or riven, if you want add me in game ign is navitar
Would've loved to try it out with you, but I'm on EUWest, and didn't find you there. (Guessing you're NA?)
I tested it out and it was a marked improvement with that extra armor, reduced mob damage, and mob damage kickback.
Take Deadliness/Lethality, 100%. Even though you don't buy crit till somewhat late, it is by far the most point-effective set of masteries in offensive, and it's too insane to give up for Havoc, some small minion damage, and 1% CDR.
On November 15 2011 07:12 Takkara wrote: I don't really see why you'd play Riven if your intent was to go Atmogs. There are far better junglers for whom Atmogs makes sense. I can see switching up what you buy, but it's not THAT hard to get a BT coming out of the jungle and Riven can farm off waves and/or split push to stack it up just fine. If you go Atmogs, wouldn't that just ignore the strongest part of Riven which is her scaling?
This was my exact thought, I follow this guide when I play Riven, but then I see the Rivens in normal mode build atmogs, and they go on large killing streaks like 15/4/x and such. She gets pretty unkillable with that high HP and shield, and her W is no joke either.
i guarantee you if you could go 15-4-x with atmogs you could go even or better with BT GA, at the very least right after you bought it you do more damage, your shield is stronger, and you have more relevant stats and if you're worried about HP amounts, you have more EHP with GA's passive on one revive as well as having lifesteal and if you consider the times when you just buy warmog vs just buying BT the difference is huge, you might be harder to instaburst with warmog but you tickle compared to what you could do with BT
I tested it out and it was a marked improvement with that extra armor, reduced mob damage, and mob damage kickback.
Take Deadliness/Lethality, 100%. Even though you don't buy crit till somewhat late, it is by far the most point-effective set of masteries in offensive, and it's too insane to give up for Havoc, some small minion damage, and 1% CDR.
I know you are discussing the proper jungling masteries but I disagree that Deadliness/Lethality is the most point-effective offensive masteries. Maybe you can enlighten me but here are my thoughts.
Crit adds damage to only her autoattacks (her passive does not crit). Off the top of my head I would say my aa's account for about 1/3 of my total DPS. Crit adds survivability in that when you crit, you get more life back from bloodthirster+wriggles.
CDR adds damage to only her abilities assuming you are using them on cooldown (which you should be). I am ignoring her passive in this case because once you get to ionians+brutalizer you have enough CDR where you cant effectively weave in an AA and still use everything on cooldown. CDR adds survivability by being able to use your shield more often.
Just eyeballing the math, if we stick to the 2/3 damage from skills 1/3 from AA's model, 4% CDR is giving you roughly double the damage of 4% crit at the expense of some survivability (4% crit lifesteal gives a little more EHP than 4% CDR Shield). This also doesn't include the ability to stun more often with CDR. Throw in Lethality and you get a little more damage, but not enough to warrant not taking CDR.
So now I would like to approach Deadliness/Lethality vs. Brutality. Again, the tradeoff is slightly more damage favoring brutality for slightly less survivability favoring Crit. A flat 1.5% increase to damage beats out a ~4.4% increase to AA damage.
Now I could be completely wrong with all of this. I am just going off numbers/math in my head. It could be that a properly played Riven has 50%-60% of her damage come from AA's which would sway in definite favor of crit. Also, this is for lane Riven, not jungle Riven. I am not as familiar with Crit vs other stats in the jungle. I just know that CDR is a much better stat than Crit on her in general. Thoughts?
On November 16 2011 05:45 Hoban wrote: Just eyeballing the math, if we stick to the 2/3 damage from skills 1/3 from AA's model, 4% CDR is giving you roughly double the damage of 4% crit at the expense of some survivability (4% crit lifesteal gives a little more EHP than 4% CDR Shield). This also doesn't include the ability to stun more often with CDR. Throw in Lethality and you get a little more damage, but not enough to warrant not taking CDR.
I'm not saying to ditch all the points in CDR. Just 1 so you can fit in Lethality.
On November 16 2011 05:45 Hoban wrote: So now I would like to approach Deadliness/Lethality vs. Brutality. Again, the tradeoff is slightly more damage favoring brutality for slightly less survivability favoring Crit. A flat 1.5% increase to damage beats out a ~4.4% increase to AA damage.
You're looking only at the 4.4% AA damage increase from just the Deadliness crit. The moment you buy a crit cloak for IE or Atmas, that jumps up to a 6.2% increase, because of how Lethality scales off any crit you buy. And the amount of damage you do from autoattacks is definitely a lot more than 1/4 your damage.
lethality is dumb efficient for 1 point cdr is nice but not necessary because to maximize damage you space autoattacks between q rotations and other spells, like r-> e + w + q -> autos and q's -> ult active and repeat etc if you include time during which you're cc'd and stuff, the cd's on your spells are usually back off by the time you finish one rotation, even with 0 cdr, assuming level 5 w and e there are incidental sources of cdr (soul shroud, blue buff, blue elixir) that are available lategame as well that can easily reach 40% cdr such that runing for it is unnecessary and not that big of a deal
Next couple games I will try and take note on where my damage comes from. I wish there was more of a damage breakdown in the stats screen. It is tough to tell though with her passive when just looking at the damage you are doing with auto's. I'll try to estimate it later with a replay or something. You can do a napkin-math estimation based on how many AA's you do per skill usage. I will get back to you on that Yango because it would definitely be something worth knowing.
As an aside, how do you generally build her?
My general build seems pretty standard: Wriggles, Ionians (unless heavy heavy heavy CC), Bruta, BT Almost always GA after this (Getting pieces as you need tem)
From here I can never quite decide. I have been enjoying Frozen Mallet so I can take a stun and not be insta-gibbed. Other times I will finish Ghostblade. Sometimes I just say F it and do something stupid like get a Wits End (not as bad as you think, you can squeeze out a few more AA'S+passive in fights). I haven't really tried IE yet. I feel a little scared going for it, I always feel like I need some extra sort of survivability past GA.
Wriggles+Bruta delays your core too long. Either Wriggles->BT in matchups where you need Wriggles sustain, or 1-2DBlade+Bruta in matchups where you feel you can bully them hard enough to not need Wriggles.
The new masteries just made Riven's jungle feel super safe. Before I felt super weak on the first couple passes. This time, I didn't even need my pot. I started Vamp Scepter with this build: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0. I went Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Pill (Armor+Pot) -> Blue -> Wolves -> Gank Mid -> Wraiths -> Dual Golems -> Red. I was at full health after using my pot. I went QEWEW. Nothing much different than what I would normally do. I did use smite early on buff camps because that got the maximum uptime for Executioner.
I'm now REALLY excited about Riven jungle. She's got stronger with the new masteries, I feel. A lot stronger. Anyone else notice a change?
PS : I have no idea if what I did was optimal on masteries, I'm messing around a lot.
On November 16 2011 13:01 Takkara wrote: The new masteries just made Riven's jungle feel super safe. Before I felt super weak on the first couple passes. This time, I didn't even need my pot. I started Vamp Scepter with this build: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0. I went Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Pill (Armor+Pot) -> Blue -> Wolves -> Gank Mid -> Wraiths -> Dual Golems -> Red. I was at full health after using my pot. I went QEWEW. Nothing much different than what I would normally do. I did use smite early on buff camps because that got the maximum uptime for Executioner.
I'm now REALLY excited about Riven jungle. She's got stronger with the new masteries, I feel. A lot stronger. Anyone else notice a change?
PS : I have no idea if what I did was optimal on masteries, I'm messing around a lot.
I'm in love with bladed armor. Our babies will be healthy and unhuggable.
Makes me laugh when small wolves are dealing almost as much damage to themselves as they are to me.
So I tried out going Dblade->Bruta or BT right off the bat (skipping wriggles) and man....it feels completely different. I really like it though, if they don't have that scary of a jungler, push lane, go gank. Rinse and repeat. I didn't realize how absurd her damage was if you just went straight bruta+BF sword after 1-2 dorans. I will have to play around with it more but with the new masteries I don't feel locked into cloth+5pots anymore. Opening dorans against someone like Irelia really really helps win the lane. Could never feel safe before but that extra damage early is essential to getting ahead in CS so you can compete in the latter part of laning phase.
if people run armor setup + cloth5pot you get crushed ofc if the opponent doesn't give you the respect you deserve and go boots or dorans item themselves they get wrecked but if they rune correctly and are good with their pots its hard to win against
Quite honestly opening anything against irelia as riven would win you the lane since at early levels you just punish her to no end with your kit alone.
I tried running a jungle Riven with 9/21/0 setup in a custom, I have to say I've never been so healthy after completing the intial Wolves > Wraiths > Golems with D Blade.
Item build is generally cloth 5 -> boots (ninja vs heavy ad, merc otherwise), -> if I'm owning either very fast BF sword or brutalizer, otherwise finish wriggles -> BT -> GA if no other tank on team, otherwise IE other LW
edit: I go top almost always, I'm not the best jungler
omg..screw trying to gain creep advantage at lvl 1. as soon as your opponent goes for his first cs, q auto the shit out of him even if it means taking more damage from his creeps and giving up a few cs. you will usually come out fairly ahead. If for some reason trading hits doesn't come out in your favor, use that last q as an insurance to get away.
in other words, don't fight for level 2; you already won at lvl 1 against most champions.
btw has anyone tried replacing flash with cleanse? with her already crazy mobility, i don't see why not.
I can't really decide between flash, cleanse, exhaust, and ghost. I feel that exhaust is almost completely necessary. Most of the time I am diving the enemy carry and/or targeted first. Getting that exhaust on the carry is essential to living more than a couple seconds. For the others...Flash is nice for flash+exhaust+start comboing carry. Gives them little ability to react and helps you avoid the big stuff that prevents you from reaching the target. Ghost is the same logic as flash, just gives increased mobility instead of instant in-your-face. Cleanse though seems like the best option on paper, you cleanse out of the first CC that hits you and have a couple seconds of big CC reduction. Haven't tried it too much in practice. Massing some games today/tomorrow though so I will have a better idea soon.
I still prefer Flash/Tele. Ghost still doesn't measure up to Flash, and who needs Exhaust when you can just keep jumping on their face? Cleanse might be nice if you're against a heavy CC team, but slows don't really bother Riven with her Q and E.
after 2 days of training on noct, i finnaly took riven for a spin with new masteries.. holy shi.. so many ganks.. so much hp, so fast clears.. ive fallen in love with riven all over again >.<
Been have success going 11/10/9 Jungle Riven. I max W than E, Q at lv 1. Been pretty successful now in a few games. Even when my team tanked I am still positive K/D and a load of assists.
On November 22 2011 10:27 Sufinsil wrote: Been have success going 11/10/9 Jungle Riven. I max W than E, Q at lv 1. Been pretty successful now in a few games. Even when my team tanked I am still positive K/D and a load of assists.
The new combat tree is too good on Riven (and even Jungle Riven) to only go 11 points into it. There's just no real reason to need buff duration and 10 points into defensive. There's just such efficient and effective masteries in deep combat that, combined with Riven's amazing scaling, just make her even more potent and scary. I think if you switched up to something like 21/6/0 (+3) you'd have an even more positive K/D... plus scarier ganks.
Concerning EG and their last game at MLG (trying to keep this spoiler free). Westrice went Jungle Riven. Super excited about that because I have never seen him jungler her before. He started Boots+3pots and took blue->wolves. From here, his wraiths were stolen so he continued to golems then blue pill. The VoD didn't follow his route too much after this point but he ended up getting 2 dorans blades before continuing with his regular riven build instead of a wriggles. Do you think this is just because he was behind due to wraith steal or do you think going 2xDblades is better than a wriggles when you just need to get your core built fast (as Riven generally does).
On November 22 2011 13:34 Hoban wrote: Concerning EG and their last game at MLG (trying to keep this spoiler free). Westrice went Jungle Riven. Super excited about that because I have never seen him jungler her before. He started Boots+3pots and took blue->wolves. From here, his wraiths were stolen so he continued to golems then blue pill. The VoD didn't follow his route too much after this point but he ended up getting 2 dorans blades before continuing with his regular riven build instead of a wriggles. Do you think this is just because he was behind due to wraith steal or do you think going 2xDblades is better than a wriggles when you just need to get your core built fast (as Riven generally does).
Be mindful that MLG was played before the S2 patch and new masteries. With the new masteries (specifically 21+/6+/0+), Riven is stupid strong in the jungle. Before S2 I always noticed hiccups in the early jungle passes. Now, you can clear the jungle to level 5 really fast with a Vamp Scepter -> Cloth/Pot start and finish with full health after a gank. It's silly. DBlade openings I haven't really worked on in the jungle, but they would be as potent or more so than ever. I don't know if it's even necessary for Riven to open boots in the jungle, but it's a possibility. I play a really passive jungle and I'm terrible at LoL, so I can't say what's optimal. All I can say with certainty though is that with the new masteries you can run a lot of different paths/item builds in the jungle with Riven. I wouldn't look to MLG though for tips because of it being on an old patch.
I usually open with cloth 5, going wraiths>wolves>blue, b for boots, then small golems, red and gank. It's probably not the greatest path, but I haven't really figured out any fast ganking paths.
On November 22 2011 13:34 Hoban wrote: Concerning EG and their last game at MLG (trying to keep this spoiler free). Westrice went Jungle Riven. Super excited about that because I have never seen him jungler her before. He started Boots+3pots and took blue->wolves. From here, his wraiths were stolen so he continued to golems then blue pill. The VoD didn't follow his route too much after this point but he ended up getting 2 dorans blades before continuing with his regular riven build instead of a wriggles. Do you think this is just because he was behind due to wraith steal or do you think going 2xDblades is better than a wriggles when you just need to get your core built fast (as Riven generally does).
Are we watching different games? Looking at the VOD I see him starting Dblade, getting pressured off his blue and his wraith stolen, forcing him to take wolves and then fail a gank in mid.
He went blades because it makes early ganks with riven super strong and it fits his normal build. Dblade/Brutalizer Riven, after selling off the blades, is ~200G more expensive than Wriggles Riven but it allows more aggressive play out of the gate.
Yes rewatching the VoDs that is what happened. I tried Boots+3pots -> Dbladex2. Noticeably stronger ganks from the jungle for sure. She does an absolute monster amount of damage early and is quick enough to boot. I have been running her smite+exhaust as well but definitely finding it easy to gank.
On November 22 2011 23:42 Hoban wrote: Yes rewatching the VoDs that is what happened. I tried Boots+3pots -> Dbladex2. Noticeably stronger ganks from the jungle for sure. She does an absolute monster amount of damage early and is quick enough to boot. I have been running her smite+exhaust as well but definitely finding it easy to gank.
What's your path for boots 3 pot? I'd really like to do this too since Riven with red and boots is pretty much a guaranteed kill or summoner down.
Would also like some "quick guide" on Jungle riven, just the basics really with the new masteries and all. Was thinking of picking her up since I need an interesting jungler.
I really need to play more games to really get a good feel for jungling her. Without a leash, I go wraiths, wolves, golems, red, blue pill. With a leash, I go blue, wolves, wraiths, golems, blue pill red gank. I have been trying out 2x dorans instead of wriggles. Giving up a free ward is really painful but it makes your ganks much scarier earlier. You give up quite a bit going wriggle-less but if you know someone on your team is grabbing it, it is still an ok option in my opinion.
I need a few more days to figure it out fully but so far, 21/9/0 has been working best (taking bladed armor) because she can clear quickly with this setup. The biggest problem is that Riven is very farm dependent and even if you are getting kills/assists you will still need a bit of lane-farm near mid-game to really get into late game with a decent build.
On November 23 2011 22:08 Hoban wrote: I really need to play more games to really get a good feel for jungling her. Without a leash, I go wraiths, wolves, golems, red, blue pill. With a leash, I go blue, wolves, wraiths, golems, blue pill red gank. I have been trying out 2x dorans instead of wriggles. Giving up a free ward is really painful but it makes your ganks much scarier earlier. You give up quite a bit going wriggle-less but if you know someone on your team is grabbing it, it is still an ok option in my opinion.
I need a few more days to figure it out fully but so far, 21/9/0 has been working best (taking bladed armor) because she can clear quickly with this setup. The biggest problem is that Riven is very farm dependent and even if you are getting kills/assists you will still need a bit of lane-farm near mid-game to really get into late game with a decent build.
Are you really that scary with the +200 HP and +6% lifesteal with your ganks?
Sure, I get that DBlade's are giving you a lot more stats, but the 5 damage is not making your ganks that much stronger. The 200 HP might make it so you aren't getting counter-ganked as easily, but unless you're really going for something like a strong level 2 gank, then is it really worth it that much?
Well the extra 200 hp is nice for going just a little bit more. I am still playing around with it though. I think you are right though, going Madreds->wriggles is the way to go. Regardless, boots is definitely the way to start. You come flying out of that jungle much more quickly and can almost always force a summoner. I like to run Smite Exhaust. If you 2xQ to them, then Q -> AA -> W -> AA -> Exhaust you can generally get a second round of Q's in to keep you on their heels. But then again, if you get caught somewhere you should be, you generally die.
200 HP is alot. It's about how much your ultimate (read: most ultimates) will hit for. Think about how many more kills you could have if you ult'd twice, or inversely how much less times you would die if the other guy has ult down.
This thanksgiving time I will spend getting this jungle riven down. I will try boots, vamp, and cloth openings. When I am coming out of the jungle with 2x dorans I don't find the extra damage of the dorans to be the deal breaker, it is the extra health I can use to tower dive some poor soul. To me, 200hp feels like the difference between a kill getting away under tower, and a QQQ->W->AA->Dash out for the kill.
Oh and I ran a few normals running ignite/exhaust. I think that is the only way to touch a lane like nasus or renek. Just go heavy aggression starting at level 1 and try to get an early FB. Idk what else to try because those matchups are pretty tough otherwise. I know that those are near-unwinnable matchups anyway but I hey I gotta try.
I've been doing a lot of experimentation between a 2nd Bloodthirster and an Infinity Edge. This is after the basic Merc Treads, Wriggles, Bloodthirster, and Guardian Angel core. At this point Riven usually just wins games anyway so it's difficult to come up with much a difference. The Infinity Edge certainly lets you do more auto attack damage and the crits are vicious, but the Bloodthirster is cheaper and brings your Lifesteal into ridiculous levels on top of having potentially 20 more AD. The downside for the second Bloodthirster is if the game gets turned around you will be losing around 80 AD instead of 40 AD.
I've come to the conclusion that the Infinity Edge is still much more solid in terms of Assassination, which is what my Riven tends to do anyway. Not to mention it's less risky. I've actually been really liking the Infinity Edge in tandem with a Youmuu's Ghostblade as well. Given your start choice is usually between Wriggles and Brutalizer/DBlade depending on how the lane is going, I often find myself being able to open up with a Brutalizer quite often and I can crush my opponents out of the lane. I'm not sure if the 3% Life Steal from masteries is really having any effect on my sustain without Wriggles, but it certainly feels like it. Since I often already have the Brutalizer, picking up the Youmuu's Ghostblade after the Infinity Edge in the extreme late game lets me burn through any possible stored Runic charges and capitalize on the strong auto-attack damage that Riven has.
For summoner spells I've actually been running Cleanse / Flash, because Exhaust just cripples her so badly when she goes into a team fight. When your the one carrying, you always seem to be the one that gets the Exhaust as well.
With Cloth Armor and Armor Quints I've found she can push the typical one out of the lane. Riven is probably the only champion I have two runesets for, one specifically to counter Physical Champions and a regular set. Given the Quints might be overkill, but I swear there was a time where it was just Garen and Talon in top lane and I was going to make sure I bring them down.
Essentially, with enough defense, you can trade hits with him and come out ahead like you do against most champions. Just make sure to Valor before you get silenced.
On November 23 2011 23:23 Hoban wrote: Well the extra 200 hp is nice for going just a little bit more. I am still playing around with it though. I think you are right though, going Madreds->wriggles is the way to go. Regardless, boots is definitely the way to start. You come flying out of that jungle much more quickly and can almost always force a summoner. I like to run Smite Exhaust. If you 2xQ to them, then Q -> AA -> W -> AA -> Exhaust you can generally get a second round of Q's in to keep you on their heels. But then again, if you get caught somewhere you should be, you generally die.
Do you gank before you blue pill? I feel like if you don't gank right away boots first is a bit of a waste.
On November 23 2011 23:23 Hoban wrote: Well the extra 200 hp is nice for going just a little bit more. I am still playing around with it though. I think you are right though, going Madreds->wriggles is the way to go. Regardless, boots is definitely the way to start. You come flying out of that jungle much more quickly and can almost always force a summoner. I like to run Smite Exhaust. If you 2xQ to them, then Q -> AA -> W -> AA -> Exhaust you can generally get a second round of Q's in to keep you on their heels. But then again, if you get caught somewhere you should be, you generally die.
Do you gank before you blue pill? I feel like if you don't gank right away boots first is a bit of a waste.
Well, it's also faster in that you get from place to place faster, and can get to lanes to cover as well. Boots offer a bit more flexibility than just straight damage.
Yes I gank before bluepill with boots. Tried vamp scepter and you come out with lower health and you aren't as scary. Building towards wriggles is nice but you don't get your damage until you get a madreds. Boots are definitely the way to go. You come out of the jungle with quite a bit of health and you can do serious damage. Wolves -> Blue (with leash) -> wraiths -> Golems -> Gank (can gank mid before golems). With a good leash you should have plenty of health. I skill Q/W/E then prioritize Q then W. You clear a little slower with E but you come out with more HP and you have that extra little gap closer. It really helps if you need to take a hit from a tower too.
On November 24 2011 00:01 Stryk wrote: Try starting with a vamp scepter, it also builds into a wriggles which is great for junglers
I really don't see how vamp scept would be good to open with on riven when riven is a melee caster, not an autoattacker.
if you mean melee caster as in renekton, no. i think you're forgetting her passive which is extremely good. imo she's more like a semi melee caster with autoattacks of a melee fighter.
as far as jungling goes, vs seems pretty good with ad quints.
But even then, she's not going to get out of a vamp scepter what trynd, xin, or nocturne would in the jungle. Opening cloth would likely give her more effective health and allow her to jungle and gank faster and more effectively. Even if you're thinking of jungling passively I still don't think vamp scepter would be a good choice for riven.
personally, i wouldn't open vs whatsoever. but it seems like a decent choice in an arranged match if you know there's not much ganking potential in any of the lanes early on, and you end up farming most of the time. ie when they have tryn top and vlad mid.
Renekton free week has been giving me plenty of practice against him. Here is what works and what doesn't work (1300-1550 ELO's is the range of renekton players I have laned against).
What didn't work: Full offensive or 27/3 or even 21/9 doesn't give you enough sustain. He does so much damage and can take so much damage that going full offensive against him just doesn't work. I had no success even having multiple free trades and a first blood on my side. The lane eventually turned into me getting dominated (though I had ~20% cs advantage the entire phase) under my turret. I tried both ignite/ghost, ignite/flash, and exhaust/ghost. I could never quite secure a kill and at higher levels I would just die even with summoner usage. Every time I opened cloth+5pots. I tried going 2x dorans to brutalizer, wriggles->boots, wriggles->BT and they all failed to save my tower and prevent me from getting pushed out of lane due to being dived by renek+jungler. I out-cs'd the renekton every time (it happens in every game, I am pretty good at cs for my ELO) but he would get a kill or two on me (with jungler help).
What did work: 9/21/0 straight damage reduction baby! One note is that you can take 3 armor and 1 in -minion damage. Helps trades way more than you think. Also, abuse the fact that renekton has to push the lane to heal and keep the wave just out of turret range (this is a big spot where reduced minion damage helps). Open cloth+5pots, and teleport/ghost. If he tries to combo you, stun and combo him back. Otherwise, try to save your CD's. If he goes exhaust you can mitigate the amount of free hits he gets on you. If he goes ignite then just be wary of your health. I have yet to see a renekton run teleport. Teleport lets you just keep buying wards and potions so you can safely CS. Since you are going to be hard to kill and have a shitload of potions, he is going to have a tough time keeping you from CSing. This is all you want. If you hit 20min with dead even CS then you win. The most important thing is to not push your lane. Tank a creep wave in front of your tower for a few seconds to prevent them from getting in tower range if need be.
It is a rough lane to play but you can safely CS if you counter his aggression with your own and keep your lane just in front of your tower. Teleport gives you the ability to keep up with him and eventually out-cs him. Runes are AD reds/Quints Armor Yellows Mres/Level blues. Want to try armor quints too just for extra survival.
Riven beats Renekton if she wins or goes even with him for the first ~7 levels. If you die early, Renekton will shit on you. All you have to do is have the jungler gank top a few times to get the advantage and you can ride it for the rest of the game.
Wait, Heal is worthwhile now? I gotta start taking a look at summoners again...
On that note, what are Jungle Rivens running nowadays? I never really thought Flash was super necessary on her since you can WsutnEQQQ away and never get caught. Maybe Heal for silly sustain shenanigans? Exhaust for ganks? Or just stick with Flash because Flash?
I've been playing quite a bit of Riven lately, both in normals and in ranked and I've met 1 Renekton in ranked so far and a few in normals, I beat all of them pretty handily - either in cs because every trade was to my advantage or I got an early kill on them because they played badly. I even had one of my friends try it out in a custom against me (he's 1700 Elo and mains Renekton), and I still beat him, I really don't see the big problem with that matchup. In case anyone is interested about the game against my friend, we both started cloth+5pots and it was pretty close but I outcs'ed him and (barely) got first blood both games. I think the biggest kicker is that you shouldn't be afraid to trade damage at your creeps and also just keep chasing him when he used Q/W. As he uses his E back towards his tower you just E towards him and use your Q knockup (try to have your 3rd Q charge ready at this point). Because of your passive your autos will hit harder when all your stuff is on cd.
With that said, against a good Renekton it's a REALLY close matchup and if you are somehow lower hp than him, try to avoid trading with him. I run 21/9/0 and ghost/ignite.
gah i cant beleive i was so stupid to not know how to build riven on her bf variant of choice and lategame.. it took a while but i learned this: IE is better vs tanky teams for example, udyr,renej and jarvan,their health/armor softcounters too fast for lifsteal/flat ad and armor pen to react.
but on the otherhand, squishy ap/assasin teams (ex. akali, kassadin, brand) flat ad/mr and lifesteal and health (thirster + spirit visage) destroy them because their health and armor gains are much lower and your abilites will do more damage to them rather than autos
yommus and berzerk greaves might be goodish midgame.. but they fall off lategame unless your droping towers. your better off with merc treads and last whisper for overall damage and survivability.
for whoever asked what masteries i use in jungle, i run 21/9/0 for runes i use ad quints, armorpen marks, armor seals, and mr/lvl glyphs to give riven a good lategame and a good clear time.
i do dorans start at wolves (enemy wraiths if i can) or double golems->gank tho i find the riven lvl 3 gank stronger scince it does not need flash like the lvl 2 gank (less you use tribush method.)
I've been running Riven a ton lately (Flash/Exhaust, 21/8/1), the only matchups I have trouble with early are lucky critplanks (full crit runes, meki starter, and parleying me every CD, all of which is stupid but effective in this scenario), Swain, and Teemo.
Against Rhenek, you have better burst at level 3 and odds are he pushed your lane, get a gank about that time and let the advantage snowball. Even without a gank, if he hangs around the tower, jump him when most of his wave is gone.
Riven is all about maxing out your passive damage, so you should never be using abilities while you have 3 stacks, try weaving in auto attacks. Always get boots/wriggles parts on the first blue pill. Focus on BT into Bruta (vice versa if you have bad farm), then go Hexblade/GA if they have a ton of magic burst, Tabi/Ghostblade/GA if they have a bunch of physical bruisers (you can deal with them a lot better because you lifesteal tank).
Also, put R on smartcast and learn to use it as such, I can't tell you how many kills I was missing trying to aim that thing.
Jungle riven pretty much dead, you need both gold and exp to survive ganking and making it to lategame. unless they revert jungle.. she now deserves to be solo top exclusively this patch
Yeah, was just thinking about that as well. I love doing the mini golems into level 2 gank bot/top into gank mid into finish jungle, but with all the xp changes it seems like it wont work as well. Unforunately I've been busy all day and won't be able to play any games, but from what I've been reading on forums, jungle kinda sucks now.
On November 30 2011 09:00 SidianTheBard wrote: Yeah, was just thinking about that as well. I love doing the mini golems into level 2 gank bot/top into gank mid into finish jungle, but with all the xp changes it seems like it wont work as well. Unforunately I've been busy all day and won't be able to play any games, but from what I've been reading on forums, jungle kinda sucks now.
On November 30 2011 09:00 SidianTheBard wrote: Yeah, was just thinking about that as well. I love doing the mini golems into level 2 gank bot/top into gank mid into finish jungle, but with all the xp changes it seems like it wont work as well. Unforunately I've been busy all day and won't be able to play any games, but from what I've been reading on forums, jungle kinda sucks now.
Big/little brother golems no longer give a level.
But red does now, so you can do redbuff into level2 gank, which is at LEAST equally brutal if not moreso.
Wouldn't swain be particularly messy for riven? Eh, now that I think about it, riven can move about reasonably well even while slowed, so maybe not.
Teemo? Irelia? Renekton's been discussed already and seems manageable but on the difficult side. Can you push a Nasus out of lane on her? Trading farm with Nasus seems... less than the ideal situation (as both of you scale really well into the late game)
riven destroys nasus i ran caster runes and masteries one game and shat on nasus regardless like mpen, AP, AP/lvl, all useless stats on riven he probably didn't rune perfectly either but still probably better than me lol
riven definetly handles nasus better than, say, jax, in teamfights because a lot of her damage is aoe spells, and her teamwide dps is probably higher for most of the game. she has a decent kit to shut him down in lane, so i wouldn't be afraid to pick riven into nasus.
teemo can't handle riven's burst, and can't kite her completely his blind obviously strong against her, but depending on when he blinds you you can use your skills accordingly (i.e. blind at start of q's, use q and w up to three charges, and then e-> q knockback when blind is off, etc
irelia is complicated, but riven can beat her early. if nothing else trading farm with her isn't a bad proposition, and ask your jungler for ganks when u feel weak etc.
Finally laned against my first Wukong that wasn't a total derp. It's an interesting match-up, to say the least. No real sustain in either champ, some pretty good damage on both sides. Riven definitely has the edge I think, though. Her combo is longer and scales better than Charge -> Q (-> Ult). Wukong has more utility thanks to his ult for teamfights, but his late game damage has nothing on Riven.
On December 02 2011 00:43 Requizen wrote: Finally laned against my first Wukong that wasn't a total derp. It's an interesting match-up, to say the least. No real sustain in either champ, some pretty good damage on both sides. Riven definitely has the edge I think, though. Her combo is longer and scales better than Charge -> Q (-> Ult). Wukong has more utility thanks to his ult for teamfights, but his late game damage has nothing on Riven.
While this is true, I think a good Wukong can probably be even or slightly outperform Riven in the early game. His Q seems to scale better than anything short of a full combo with autoattacks, which is extraordinarily hard to get against someone who has a dash and an invis.
Mid-late game, she shits all over him, though.
Also, I've noticed just how much the minion changes affect the matchup when I ended up getting duo laned top by a panth/nidalee. Nid kept me completely zoned until I got a jungle gank, killed both of them, then panth started roaming and I finally won the lane. She never even dropped HP with 1 pot and her heal, even when I had a full wave of minions attacking her for short periods, and I couldn't get close with her passive and boots opening. Very frustrating.
On December 02 2011 10:44 CeriseCherries wrote: what about putting riven bot o.o I've laned blitz + riven pretty nicely
Seems like you'd get zoned by a good sustaining harass lane comp (basically any AD + sona) and with blitz, winning lane is basically is blitz landing decent grabs? If yes, you're probably winning lane.
On December 01 2011 14:20 Navi wrote: riven destroys nasus i ran caster runes and masteries one game and shat on nasus regardless like mpen, AP, AP/lvl, all useless stats on riven he probably didn't rune perfectly either but still probably better than me lol
riven definetly handles nasus better than, say, jax, in teamfights because a lot of her damage is aoe spells, and her teamwide dps is probably higher for most of the game. she has a decent kit to shut him down in lane, so i wouldn't be afraid to pick riven into nasus.
teemo can't handle riven's burst, and can't kite her completely his blind obviously strong against her, but depending on when he blinds you you can use your skills accordingly (i.e. blind at start of q's, use q and w up to three charges, and then e-> q knockback when blind is off, etc
irelia is complicated, but riven can beat her early. if nothing else trading farm with her isn't a bad proposition, and ask your jungler for ganks when u feel weak etc.
I went against a nasus once who rushed frozen heart before like...anything even tier 2 boots. lvls 1-6 were ezmode and i got a nice cs advantage, but after he hit like lvl 7 and finished glacial i couldn't trade with him anymore. i was able to maintain a nice cs lead for the rest of laning, but yea...after a certain point i couldnt do crap against nasus's lifesteal and massive armor stack.
On December 01 2011 14:20 Navi wrote: riven destroys nasus i ran caster runes and masteries one game and shat on nasus regardless like mpen, AP, AP/lvl, all useless stats on riven he probably didn't rune perfectly either but still probably better than me lol
riven definetly handles nasus better than, say, jax, in teamfights because a lot of her damage is aoe spells, and her teamwide dps is probably higher for most of the game. she has a decent kit to shut him down in lane, so i wouldn't be afraid to pick riven into nasus.
teemo can't handle riven's burst, and can't kite her completely his blind obviously strong against her, but depending on when he blinds you you can use your skills accordingly (i.e. blind at start of q's, use q and w up to three charges, and then e-> q knockback when blind is off, etc
irelia is complicated, but riven can beat her early. if nothing else trading farm with her isn't a bad proposition, and ask your jungler for ganks when u feel weak etc.
I went against a nasus once who rushed frozen heart before like...anything even tier 2 boots. lvls 1-6 were ezmode and i got a nice cs advantage, but after he hit like lvl 7 and finished glacial i couldn't trade with him anymore. i was able to maintain a nice cs lead for the rest of laning, but yea...after a certain point i couldnt do crap against nasus's lifesteal and massive armor stack.
trade farm, aoe down their team in teamfights, profit the one thing i really like about riven is that you never have to be afraid of trading farm with anybody because you will scale comparably or better than them (ignoring ridiculous cases where nasus gets like 400 q stacks or something)
garen can go for a level 2 kill wtih dblade and ad marks, but if he doesn't manage to kill her then, he's fucked and her e makes it so that you can trade with garen post 3 very easily not to mention you can w before his q auto gets into range and run away if you dont wanna fight with him at any point
pantheon gets destroyed and is fairly easy to gank nasus gets destroyed and is easy to gank
cho is really disadvantaged level 1-2, but if he can get over the rocky early levels and builds some good armor early it can become a farm off (i still wouldn't want to play cho against her because you're kinda forced into a static build path that the enemy AP should be able to take advantage of but w/e) they're both decent to gank for, but late game riven is a much bigger beast midgame fights they're both strong
olaf is strong vs her, its a matchup with very little margin of error for riven, but whoever gets the first gank will usually win. riven outscales him like fuck, so he MUST win or he's screwed
tryndamere scales comparably with riven and is equally strong or stronger at levels 2-3, so that's another matchup that comes down to ganks and individual skill level / use of skills well.
ryze with boots can kite her quite well, riven needs boots in that matchup because of how ryze's w works. after ryze gets tear, its a pain in the ass, because you WILL be forced back, even with wriggles.
udyr and irelia work, but neither can usually shut down her farm, and neither like trading farm because there are very few windows where either is as strong as riven in teamfights (level 7 irelia is pretty scary, but most dragon teamfights won't happen then; riven does a lot more aoe damage than irelia as well as being comparably or more mobile).
gangplank... i've never seen a gangplank shut me down, but i have shut down a TON of gangplanks. he has less survivability if he builds glass cannon, and his kit in general is less suited for teamfighting with the exception of his ult (and riven's probably does more damage anyway) and will get shut down if both riven and GP have wriggles and they are trading hits
i would probably go ryze or olaf because each definitely has a time period during which they are definitively stronger than riven in lane and in teamfights, and tryndamere for a safe fall-back that has good scaling (because olaf at least gets outscaled like fuck by riven, and ryze while having quite a bit of utility has less damage than her for sure)
much better than most bruisers. if riven runs ignite she can get kills as early as level 2-3 on him lol i'd be willing to play around with that matchup later with u if u'd like
On December 03 2011 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote: Swain? How does Riven fare?
Never get caught in Nevermove thanks to dash-iness. Can't really trade that hard with him, thanks to bird sustain, but you can burst faster than his DoTs can kill you most of the time. Not enough experience, I'm sure Navi has a better idea.
you just abuse him early game and if you run ignite you can kill him at most stages in the game, because even if he nevermores you, you can still autoattack him (and get in a position to do so by using your e and q, or just use them to dodge it if he doesn't use nevermore over where he will be standing when disengaging, but if he can't do that he's probably not a great swain).
it's not a complete stomp though, because swain's kit still has good cc, but imo the deciding factor is the two sides' proneness to ganks, and swain is definetly more gankable at just about every stage in the game because of riven's mobility and instant ministun and swain's lack of mobility
So just tried to straight up fight lvl1 against Leesin and just about got my ass handed to me. Also why the hell does it feel like she has the worse base attack speed in game.
On December 05 2011 12:08 Brambled wrote: So just tried to straight up fight lvl1 against Leesin and just about got my ass handed to me. Also why the hell does it feel like she has the worse base attack speed in game.
I think Lee sin has the strongest lvl 1 in the game bar none. Better than Riven/Panth and anyone else I can think of. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thing about lee sin tho is that Riven wrecks him after a few levels and she far far outscales lee sin.
jungle riven is back on the map again. the gold scaling lategame (and banking system overall) helps her. the exp is a bit better but only about 5% slower instead of the whole 25-30% slower. had a blitz harassing enemy lee all day.. and farmed up/ganked enough to have wriggles boots + bf before he could even get lvl. paths are predictable now tho sadly.. w/o a double golem start. tho red start is a possibility you need to do cloth5 for that instead of dorans start
On December 05 2011 12:08 Brambled wrote: So just tried to straight up fight lvl1 against Leesin and just about got my ass handed to me. Also why the hell does it feel like she has the worse base attack speed in game.
I think Lee sin has the strongest lvl 1 in the game bar none. Better than Riven/Panth and anyone else I can think of. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thing about lee sin tho is that Riven wrecks him after a few levels and she far far outscales lee sin.
pretty sure panth will win kus of passive. real tough for just about any melee to beat panth 1v1
On December 02 2011 10:44 CeriseCherries wrote: what about putting riven bot o.o I've laned blitz + riven pretty nicely
Seems like you'd get zoned by a good sustaining harass lane comp (basically any AD + sona) and with blitz, winning lane is basically is blitz landing decent grabs? If yes, you're probably winning lane.
i really really really want to try riven leona, if i ever had to run her botlane that lane just sounds like the most annoying sht ever double melee? too bad you're dead zzz
On December 02 2011 10:44 CeriseCherries wrote: what about putting riven bot o.o I've laned blitz + riven pretty nicely
Seems like you'd get zoned by a good sustaining harass lane comp (basically any AD + sona) and with blitz, winning lane is basically is blitz landing decent grabs? If yes, you're probably winning lane.
i really really really want to try riven leona, if i ever had to run her botlane that lane just sounds like the most annoying sht ever double melee? too bad you're dead zzz
I did this in a bot game once - obviously not even close to a good indicator of what would happen in a real game, but the killing power was hilarious.
Also, super big thanks for this guide! I think it's one of the best guides because whenever I play I have a good feeling for the direction I want to go with my build and stuff - like when you say what Riven scales with, it seems super obvious when you explain it but a lot of people don't think about that stuff, so I've been consistently out-damaging opposing Rivens with other builds. Had an epic comeback game where we were behind at least 10 kills and ~4 turrets (we hadn't taken ANY of their turrets at this point), but after a few good teamfights (including a quadrakill and pentakill for me!!!) we won the game.
Btw, what can I do to protect myself vs counterjungling at the beginning as jungle Riven? it's probably just a matter of having my team coordinate better, but i had one game where my big wraith was stolen (not a big deal at my level of play... i'm not even lvl 30 yet) and another where i got ganked twice at blue, and i felt waaay behind and didn't know what i should have done about them.
On December 02 2011 10:44 CeriseCherries wrote: what about putting riven bot o.o I've laned blitz + riven pretty nicely
Seems like you'd get zoned by a good sustaining harass lane comp (basically any AD + sona) and with blitz, winning lane is basically is blitz landing decent grabs? If yes, you're probably winning lane.
i really really really want to try riven leona, if i ever had to run her botlane that lane just sounds like the most annoying sht ever double melee? too bad you're dead zzz
I did this in a bot game once - obviously not even close to a good indicator of what would happen in a real game, but the killing power was hilarious.
Also, super big thanks for this guide! I think it's one of the best guides because whenever I play I have a good feeling for the direction I want to go with my build and stuff - like when you say what Riven scales with, it seems super obvious when you explain it but a lot of people don't think about that stuff, so I've been consistently out-damaging opposing Rivens with other builds. Had an epic comeback game where we were behind at least 10 kills and ~4 turrets (we hadn't taken ANY of their turrets at this point), but after a few good teamfights (including a quadrakill and pentakill for me!!!) we won the game.
Btw, what can I do to protect myself vs counterjungling at the beginning as jungle Riven? it's probably just a matter of having my team coordinate better, but i had one game where my big wraith was stolen (not a big deal at my level of play... i'm not even lvl 30 yet) and another where i got ganked twice at blue, and i felt waaay behind and didn't know what i should have done about them.
Generally if you feel that the other team has warded your blue/ any camp just skip it unless you have a high level of coordination with your team. You're better off running damage control and just farming the rest of your jungle than trying to be stubborn about grabbing blue. A big part of jungling is adapting.
I've been playing riven all night since she's free and I'm really surprised at just how strong she gets once she has wriggles+bt. I dunno why I don't see her more often in games. From what navi has been saying in this thread it doesn't even seem like she has a large assortment of bad matchups either. I had a tough early game against renekton once but I haven't had any trouble otherwise so far. I have a feeling I'm going to buy her after this free week is because even if we disregard how she can become a huge supercarry, she has one of the most fun character designs in the entire game.
i find her pretty weak. she gets shutdown too easily. now that flash has been nerfed, CC had been more ever prevalent and devastating. i.e escape for all champs got nerfed. any character which has shotgun dmg /stun is so powerful.
e.g ryze is one of the best champs nowadays for solo queue as well, regardless of bad teammates/enemy compositions you can carry. rune prison is godly, as not moving a for a second of two is devastating.
Olaf is pretty devastating now as long as you have teammates which can chase and punish ranged ad carries like cait.vayne, trist.
The flash nerf is so miniscule that whenever anyone tries to argue that the flash nerf has actually changed anything I just can't take it seriously at all. CC is just as strong as it used to be, if not weaker.
On December 06 2011 17:56 getpicture wrote: i find her pretty weak. she gets shutdown too easily. now that flash has been nerfed, CC had been more ever prevalent and devastating. i.e escape for all champs got nerfed. any character which has shotgun dmg /stun is so powerful.
e.g ryze is one of the best champs nowadays for solo queue as well, regardless of bad teammates/enemy compositions you can carry. rune prison is godly, as not moving a for a second of two is devastating.
Olaf is pretty devastating now as long as you have teammates which can chase and punish ranged ad carries like cait.vayne, trist.
I feel as though there's some devastatingly mistaken "facts" in your devastatingly blunt post about how devastating devastating devastating.
On December 06 2011 17:56 getpicture wrote: i find her pretty weak. she gets shutdown too easily. now that flash has been nerfed, CC had been more ever prevalent and devastating. i.e escape for all champs got nerfed. any character which has shotgun dmg /stun is so powerful.
e.g ryze is one of the best champs nowadays for solo queue as well, regardless of bad teammates/enemy compositions you can carry. rune prison is godly, as not moving a for a second of two is devastating.
Olaf is pretty devastating now as long as you have teammates which can chase and punish ranged ad carries like cait.vayne, trist.
ryze is piss poor until he is farmed, wheras riven is only piss poor at level 1 and 2...
most noobs build ryze the wrong way i.e with tear of godess first. the best way to make ryze is boots rod of ages than more Roa glacial etc. ppl rushing for archangel fail.
also GP is far stronger than riven. a fed 10/0 Gp is far superior than 10/0 riven. Gp can parley you all day and prevent you from farming solo or even duo when first line of turrets are destroyed. one parley and you are slowed. and riven has poor escape despite her Q. nidalee's pounce moves much faster.
What? Rod of ages is pretty troll on ryze. So is archangels. AP is bad, didn't you get the memo? You go tears/catalyst/glacial/hextech and make bveil/void staff/banshee veil/frozen when you want and finish with wota and archangels.
And I'd argue 10/0 riven is a hell of a lot scarier than 10/0 gp. GP is largely supporty hero while riven can basically tower dive anyone that said gp is spamming Q on. And why do you compare GP to riven then say riven has poor escape compared to the best escaping champion in the game? That's really fucking retarded. Riven has stronger escapes than most champions and when you're 10/0 you can basically double kill any time they gank you because you have so much AoE. (I.e all your damage except your autohits)
On December 06 2011 21:35 getpicture wrote: most noobs build ryze the wrong way i.e with tear of godess first. the best way to make ryze is boots rod of ages than more Roa glacial etc. ppl rushing for archangel fail.
also GP is far stronger than riven. a fed 10/0 Gp is far superior than 10/0 riven. Gp can parley you all day and prevent you from farming solo or even duo when first line of turrets are destroyed. one parley and you are slowed. and riven has poor escape despite her Q. nidalee's pounce moves much faster.
Alright, either you're trolling or sorely uninformed.
First, Tear of the Goddess is one of the most cost-effective items on Ryze. In fact, I think it is. And even if you build one RoA (which is usually sub-optimal on Ryze), building more than one is just dumb. So.... yeah.
And wut. GP is good, for sure, but Parley is one shot and Riven can hit as hard or harder for longer and has an AoE execute. I can see GP duel as well as Riven, maybe, but GP can't run in and knock out 3 enemies in a teamfight almost by himself. And GP has no escape other than trying to slow and run.
On December 06 2011 21:35 getpicture wrote: most noobs build ryze the wrong way i.e with tear of godess first. the best way to make ryze is boots rod of ages than more Roa glacial etc. ppl rushing for archangel fail.
also GP is far stronger than riven. a fed 10/0 Gp is far superior than 10/0 riven. Gp can parley you all day and prevent you from farming solo or even duo when first line of turrets are destroyed. one parley and you are slowed. and riven has poor escape despite her Q. nidalee's pounce moves much faster.
Read the ryze guide, you're building ryze wrong too, and if you think people are building that tear into an AA staff, you're missing something (or you're right, and they're building ryze wrong too.). AA staff adds only 50 mana, which is the part Ryze cares about.
A fed riven is going to output more DPS and especially AoE damage than a fed GP. A fed GP on the other hand, will be blasting away a huge chunk of your health before you engage, but he doesn't really do stupid sick DPS, it's just really strong ranged poke.
And saying that riven's escapes are bad because nidalee is better ... by that logic, EVERYONE'S escape power except for maybe Kassadin is bad because Nidalee is better. Riven is pretty good at escaping, and the Q-hopping lets you continue moving quickly while slowed, which is equally or more important than just the burst of movement it gives you. Her Q and E are both on short-ish CDs, too, and the shield E grants while escaping helps a ton too.
riven scaling is poor. riven is ad caster. base ad 107. ad skill ratios aren't everything/ what might as well say get 5 blood thirsters? the only champ which can carry with high ratios is TALON because he can escape and do so much dmg. lol .most ppl only get 2 dmg items rest is tanky for ad casters.. lets say her valor E shield ratio is 0.5 instead of 1. a blood thirster only gives extra 30 shield. go get a warmogs. potentially warmog 1400hp gives 1400/2000 70% more survivability.
u dont add up ratios for a champ. consider adratios / cooldown. burst wise riven falls late game. Q can remove large % of enemy early game but late game her Q only does 10-15% ,max dmg of her targets.
consider volibear burst frenzy, 20% bonus hp scaling. equivalent to 2.0 AP ratio with respect to gold. (rabadon death cap.) u need a math lesson.
riven can't beat Gp enough said. scrim matches. already tested
On December 07 2011 08:41 getpicture wrote: riven scaling is poor. riven is ad caster. base ad 107. ad skill ratios aren't everything/ what might as well say get 5 blood thirsters? the only champ which can carry with high ratios is TALON because he can escape and do so much dmg. lol .most ppl only get 2 dmg items rest is tanky for ad casters.. lets say her valor E shield ratio is 0.5 instead of 1. a blood thirster only gives extra 30 shield. go get a warmogs. potentially warmog 1400hp gives 1400/2000 70% more survivability.
u dont add up ratios for a champ. consider adratios / cooldown. burst wise riven falls late game. Q can remove large % of enemy early game but late game her Q only does 10-15% ,max dmg of her targets.
consider volibear burst frenzy, 20% bonus hp scaling. equivalent to 2.0 AP ratio with respect to gold. (rabadon death cap.) u need a math lesson.
riven can't beat Gp enough said. scrim matches. already tested
If you're only getting 2 damage items by late late game then yeah your burst will of course be neutered. Riven is NOT a Atmogs character. Any Riven that is Atmogsing it is just doing it straight up wrong. Follow the builds and advice here and from Navi. Riven is an amazing late-game carry.
She doesn't compare to Talon because Talon is an assassin. Riven is not an assassin. Riven is not intended to be all front-end burst. She's got amazingly high sustained damage due to her skills and her passive. Ignoring the strength of her passive is likely part of why you're so badly misinformed about her damage potential.
See, I can't even tell with this game because I see so many bad players. Half the time I win I feel like I won not because I played well but rather because too many people on the other team have no idea how to play their champions. It's not even like BW or anything because most people in BW know all the basic theory and thus winning and losing largely lies in execution. In LoL like 50% of the population don't even get a passing grade on understanding builds and champion design.
If you're going to troll, at least do it in the general discussion thread or preferably don't troll at all. I usually refer irl friends who just started playing this game to tl, and this isn't helping. I might as well recommend leagueoflegends.com forums if this starts becoming more prevalent.
So for comboing at early levels, do you try to get an auto in inbetween every part of Q? If you're trying to kill at lv2, should you try to initiate with W? Do you W in the middle of Q or doesn't matter?
On December 07 2011 09:15 zulu_nation8 wrote: So for comboing at early levels, do you try to get an auto in inbetween every part of Q? If you're trying to kill at lv2, should you try to initiate with W? Do you W in the middle of Q or doesn't matter?
i forget if i do but since u guys are cool ill just type here obv against something with a blink or dash type skill like lee you want to use w early in the combo (when you think they will use the dash). q and e both serve the purpose to get you to where you want to be. you can also play mindgames by baiting their dash by walking up or using 1 q to force a dash (after setting up a basic pattern of aggression like e->w or q- w in this case), and not using w while they use their dash and then keeping the q active by q'ing right when the q duration is going to expire and then force a good trade with the knockup, e, and w. But in most cases you want to maximize dps by not going over 3 stacks, yes. e and q let you stick to your opponent very well, and the w ministun is nice too.
if you're going for a kill at level 2 you generally want to use w as the finisher because when they are stunned they aren't able to flash away etc and the cast time on the third q knockback is such that it's dodgable with flash. either way if you're dominating that hard it shouldn't be a big hurry, i don't like wasting flash for kills that early unless they are obviously at flash w-> auto (+ q if necessary) low enough hp
Alright, add Yorick to the list of annoying people to lane against.
I can deny him all day, beat him in a straight fight, but no matter what I do he'll just keep poking in and dropping fucking ghouls on my head and run away. Annoying as hell.
I mean, I still murdered him, got highest farm in the game, and carried hard, but seriously, fuck that guy.
For the riven noobs out there (and I'm noticing them more because of free week) take note:
Her passive-charged autoattack does a huge deal more than any of her 3 Q strikes. In fact, they do absolute shit for damage until you get farmed up. Spamming all 3 of them + W as fast as you can is not the best way to get burst damage out. Autoattack between Qs and don't forget you can use other abilities between Q strikes.
Why would you auto attack between the qs? Wouldnt you want to go q-q-q so that u have 3 stacks.
Having 3 stakcs then auto attacking would make u deal 3 stacks worth of damage for first hit, 2 stacks for 2nd hit and 1 stack for 3rd hit, or u could use all 3 qs then auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash auto attack for a total of 9 stacks worth of damage.
On December 08 2011 13:16 Cosmology wrote: Why would you auto attack between the qs? Wouldnt you want to go q-q-q so that u have 3 stacks.
Having 3 stakcs then auto attacking would make u deal 3 stacks worth of damage for first hit, 2 stacks for 2nd hit and 1 stack for 3rd hit, or u could use all 3 qs then auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash auto attack for a total of 9 stacks worth of damage.
Why would you auto attack at 1 stack>?
Her passive doesn't deal damage based on stacks. It always does the fixed damage and expends a charge when it's used. Having 3 stacks doesn't do more damage than having 1 stack.
it works, but isn't optimal really if you're looking late game iedge + green pots and crit mastery will increase your lategame damage much more, BT as a item vs 2 triforce items + 1 basic component does a lot more for riven as well not to mention while chaining q's you actually use skills faster than the proc resets and lastly riven's base damage isn't amazing, but her scaling is, so you should itemize appropriately
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Riven's Q reset her swing timer? In the sense that, every time I seem to use Q, I auto-attack immediately after. That's the biggest reason, to me, if it's true, for doing Q-Auto-Q-Auto-Q-Auto. If you open with an auto attack that's a ton of burst with a W in there. If it doesn't reset her timer then the animation of Q must just be really close to her auto-attack timer.
On December 08 2011 14:15 Takkara wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Riven's Q reset her swing timer? In the sense that, every time I seem to use Q, I auto-attack immediately after. That's the biggest reason, to me, if it's true, for doing Q-Auto-Q-Auto-Q-Auto. If you open with an auto attack that's a ton of burst with a W in there. If it doesn't reset her timer then the animation of Q must just be really close to her auto-attack timer.
It doesn't reset timer, but Q animation is pretty long so yea, it's quite closer to her auto attack timer.
what you can do is you can cancel riven's backswing animation with Q tho
On December 09 2011 09:37 ManyCookies wrote: I thought it was impossible to build Riven incorrectly. Free Riven Week has proven me wrong.
When did you start playing?
The amount of atmog Riven I have seen when she is released is disgusting. Is like people forgot how to build a melee champion without building tanky items.
On December 08 2011 13:16 Cosmology wrote: Why would you auto attack between the qs? Wouldnt you want to go q-q-q so that u have 3 stacks.
Having 3 stakcs then auto attacking would make u deal 3 stacks worth of damage for first hit, 2 stacks for 2nd hit and 1 stack for 3rd hit, or u could use all 3 qs then auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash auto attack for a total of 9 stacks worth of damage.
Why would you auto attack at 1 stack>?
You completely misunderstand her passive. Her passive gives her a damage buff to the next basic melee attack, one buff per stack, not an additive buff based on stacks. Therefore, only one stack is used per melee attack.
Because you can't melee while using skills, and because you can only have 3 stacks; if you spam Q, then you waste the longer term damage capability and waste passive stacks if you need to stun or dash to chase, for example. You should use the passive as a 5th ability and your highest damage output. W does a lot of damage, but Q does shit for damage in comparison and E doesn't do any damage at all. Spreading out skills between autoattacks allows you to use each stack gained by her passive to its full potential.
3 Q's, auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash, auto attack (the combo you stated) would only use 3 stacks of her passive with 3 stacks left over, because you only melee 3 times.. Those three stacks are effectively wasted, because unless you have attack speed items, that's almost 3 seconds that you need to stand there whacking at the opponent to use them. In addition, you have no knockup, stun or dash to keep up with them/prevent them from running away anymore. Spread your shit out.
Any Riven that spams Q doesn't know what they're doing and is a bad Riven.
On December 08 2011 13:16 Cosmology wrote: Why would you auto attack between the qs? Wouldnt you want to go q-q-q so that u have 3 stacks.
Having 3 stakcs then auto attacking would make u deal 3 stacks worth of damage for first hit, 2 stacks for 2nd hit and 1 stack for 3rd hit, or u could use all 3 qs then auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash auto attack for a total of 9 stacks worth of damage.
Why would you auto attack at 1 stack>?
You completely misunderstand her passive. Her passive gives her a damage buff to the next basic melee attack, one buff per stack, not an additive buff based on stacks. Therefore, only one stack is used per melee attack.
Because you can't melee while using skills, and because you can only have 3 stacks; if you spam Q, then you waste the longer term damage capability and waste passive stacks if you need to stun or dash to chase, for example. You should use the passive as a 5th ability and your highest damage output. W does a lot of damage, but Q does shit for damage in comparison and E doesn't use much damage at all. Spreading out skills between autoattacks allows you to use each stack gained by her passive to its full potential.
This.
90% of the rivens I face in mirror lane go E/W/Q/Q/Q and wonder why I still beat them when they initiated on me.
Also, as for building her, it's easy:
Cloth/5pot Vamp Scepter/Boots (wriggles if you can) Wriggles/BF sword (if you can afford it)/Longsword (if you can't) BT/Brutalizer (depending on the above item, get the other one next)
If they have a lot of AP: Hexdrinker/GA Ghostblade
On December 08 2011 13:16 Cosmology wrote: Why would you auto attack between the qs? Wouldnt you want to go q-q-q so that u have 3 stacks.
Having 3 stakcs then auto attacking would make u deal 3 stacks worth of damage for first hit, 2 stacks for 2nd hit and 1 stack for 3rd hit, or u could use all 3 qs then auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash auto attack for a total of 9 stacks worth of damage.
Why would you auto attack at 1 stack>?
You completely misunderstand her passive. Her passive gives her a damage buff to the next basic melee attack, one buff per stack, not an additive buff based on stacks. Therefore, only one stack is used per melee attack.
Because you can't melee while using skills, and because you can only have 3 stacks; if you spam Q, then you waste the longer term damage capability and waste passive stacks if you need to stun or dash to chase, for example. You should use the passive as a 5th ability and your highest damage output. W does a lot of damage, but Q does shit for damage in comparison and E doesn't use much damage at all. Spreading out skills between autoattacks allows you to use each stack gained by her passive to its full potential.
This.
90% of the rivens I face in mirror lane go E/W/Q/Q/Q and wonder why I still beat them when they initiated on me.
Also, as for building her, it's easy:
Cloth/5pot Vamp Scepter/Boots (wriggles if you can) Wriggles/BF sword (if you can afford it)/Longsword (if you can't) BT/Brutalizer (depending on the above item, get the other one next)
If they have a lot of AP: Hexdrinker/GA Ghostblade
If they have AD: Ghostblade/GA Another BT
If you don't want to go full out assault, I don't even know if the ghostblade is necessary. Brutalizer, Wriggles and BT is insane damage (350+ AD with ult). After wriggles (essential item imo), brut and BT, I'd get a frozen mallet and guardian angel. If they're high AP, hexdrinker is a pretty decent item but lackluster unless they have 2+ AP champs. Magic resist runes and masteries, merc treads + GA is usually enough.
On December 09 2011 09:37 ManyCookies wrote: I thought it was impossible to build Riven incorrectly. Free Riven Week has proven me wrong.
When did you start playing?
The amount of atmog Riven I have seen when she is released is disgusting. Is like people forgot how to build a melee champion without building tanky items.
I blame hotshot
You should also blame the meta-game and item selection. Think of Atmogs as the top item tier equivalent of d-blade.
On December 08 2011 13:16 Cosmology wrote: Why would you auto attack between the qs? Wouldnt you want to go q-q-q so that u have 3 stacks.
Having 3 stakcs then auto attacking would make u deal 3 stacks worth of damage for first hit, 2 stacks for 2nd hit and 1 stack for 3rd hit, or u could use all 3 qs then auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash auto attack for a total of 9 stacks worth of damage.
Why would you auto attack at 1 stack>?
You completely misunderstand her passive. Her passive gives her a damage buff to the next basic melee attack, one buff per stack, not an additive buff based on stacks. Therefore, only one stack is used per melee attack.
Because you can't melee while using skills, and because you can only have 3 stacks; if you spam Q, then you waste the longer term damage capability and waste passive stacks if you need to stun or dash to chase, for example. You should use the passive as a 5th ability and your highest damage output. W does a lot of damage, but Q does shit for damage in comparison and E doesn't use much damage at all. Spreading out skills between autoattacks allows you to use each stack gained by her passive to its full potential.
This.
90% of the rivens I face in mirror lane go E/W/Q/Q/Q and wonder why I still beat them when they initiated on me.
Also, as for building her, it's easy:
Cloth/5pot Vamp Scepter/Boots (wriggles if you can) Wriggles/BF sword (if you can afford it)/Longsword (if you can't) BT/Brutalizer (depending on the above item, get the other one next)
If they have a lot of AP: Hexdrinker/GA Ghostblade
If they have AD: Ghostblade/GA Another BT
If you don't want to go full out assault, I don't even know if the ghostblade is necessary. Brutalizer, Wriggles and BT is insane damage (350+ AD with ult). After wriggles (essential item imo), brut and BT, I'd get a frozen mallet and guardian angel. If they're high AP, hexdrinker is a pretty decent item but lackluster unless they have 2+ AP champs. Magic resist runes and masteries, merc treads + GA is usually enough.
I've tested atmongs, mallet, and triforce and all are lackluster at best. Attack speed seems good, but it's a trap you don't want to fall in because it means you're doing less damage, even Cleaver doesn't pull its weight. If you end up with an extra slot, Infinity Edge is what you'd really want. Over 1k crits with ult active <3
Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT.
On December 08 2011 13:16 Cosmology wrote: Why would you auto attack between the qs? Wouldnt you want to go q-q-q so that u have 3 stacks.
Having 3 stakcs then auto attacking would make u deal 3 stacks worth of damage for first hit, 2 stacks for 2nd hit and 1 stack for 3rd hit, or u could use all 3 qs then auto attack, stun, auto attack, dash auto attack for a total of 9 stacks worth of damage.
Why would you auto attack at 1 stack>?
You completely misunderstand her passive. Her passive gives her a damage buff to the next basic melee attack, one buff per stack, not an additive buff based on stacks. Therefore, only one stack is used per melee attack.
Because you can't melee while using skills, and because you can only have 3 stacks; if you spam Q, then you waste the longer term damage capability and waste passive stacks if you need to stun or dash to chase, for example. You should use the passive as a 5th ability and your highest damage output. W does a lot of damage, but Q does shit for damage in comparison and E doesn't use much damage at all. Spreading out skills between autoattacks allows you to use each stack gained by her passive to its full potential.
This.
90% of the rivens I face in mirror lane go E/W/Q/Q/Q and wonder why I still beat them when they initiated on me.
Also, as for building her, it's easy:
Cloth/5pot Vamp Scepter/Boots (wriggles if you can) Wriggles/BF sword (if you can afford it)/Longsword (if you can't) BT/Brutalizer (depending on the above item, get the other one next)
If they have a lot of AP: Hexdrinker/GA Ghostblade
If they have AD: Ghostblade/GA Another BT
If you don't want to go full out assault, I don't even know if the ghostblade is necessary. Brutalizer, Wriggles and BT is insane damage (350+ AD with ult). After wriggles (essential item imo), brut and BT, I'd get a frozen mallet and guardian angel. If they're high AP, hexdrinker is a pretty decent item but lackluster unless they have 2+ AP champs. Magic resist runes and masteries, merc treads + GA is usually enough.
I've tested atmongs, mallet, and triforce and all are lackluster at best. Attack speed seems good, but it's a trap you don't want to fall in because it means you're doing less damage, even Cleaver doesn't pull its weight. If you end up with an extra slot, Infinity Edge is what you'd really want. Over 1k crits with ult active <3
Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT.
I'd definitely agree with all of that. Though frozen mallet is nice because although Riven does have nice mobility, screw all those AD carries going double phantom dancers getting 500 movement speed. SCREW YOU. So the perma slow is nice. Other than that, idk if Frozen Mallet is worth the money.
But in terms of 6 items, merc treads. 2x BT, GA, and Ghostblade is a decent setup for all out assault Riven, but substitute the second BT for mallet or something for beefier Riven. But first 4 items should be wriggles, brutalizer, bloodthirster and guardian's angel. IMO, of course
Im pretty medicore with Riven so I don't play her as much as I would like (Love to play her though <3) but seriously free week rivens are getting on my nerves....Ok lets play a champ that you never played before (ok thats fine) but do 0 research on them so your clueless to build them. OR you 1st pick riven in ranked and open with "im a warmogs riven btw) ~_~ God lol
On December 09 2011 13:34 deth2munkies wrote: Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT.
I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD.
On December 09 2011 13:34 deth2munkies wrote: Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT.
I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD.
I sometimes get Hexdrinker in games against Karthus, just to piss him off.
Edit:
Also. I'm never jungling Riven again anymore, it's so lame. Gold feels so scarce, leveling is so slow, and it's just not worth it, especially if they have a good jungler of their own.
On December 09 2011 13:34 deth2munkies wrote: Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT.
I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD.
QSS is better against CC heavy teams, if they have WW/Malz/etc, although I have run it against teams with multiple exhausts when I'm the only real carry, but that's solo queue stuff. If they're just using AP carries like Ryze/Annie/Karthus/Cass, you're better off with Hexdrinker.
On December 09 2011 13:34 deth2munkies wrote: Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT.
I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD.
there is that shield.
And QSS has 20 more MR--which translates into more magic damage mitigated than the shield unless you're at pretty high MR values (Riven won't be).
As a reasonable example, suppose you have ~100 MR before Hexdrinker (reasonable with base + GA + Mercs + runes). Then Hexdrinker gives you 130 MR + 300 magic damage shield while QSS gives you 150 MR. With Hexdrinker you take 8.6% more damage, which means that QSS gives equal EHP at 3450 HP. You have 2k base HP at level 18, meaning you effectively have more than 3450 HP if you get 3-4 Es off in a fight, or 2 Es + GA proc--these two scenarios together probably make up the majority of proper teamfight scenarios, meaning that QSS mitigates more magic damage in most cases, even factoring in the shield.
On December 10 2011 01:10 deth2munkies wrote: QSS is better against CC heavy teams, if they have WW/Malz/etc. If they're just using AP carries like Ryze/Annie/Karthus/Cass, you're better off with Hexdrinker.
Why? Do you really miss 35 damage that much?
Even if QSS is only being used to shake an Exhaust, it's still probably worth more than the extra Hexdrinker damage. Any team that knows what they're doing will save a stun or Exhaust for you, even if they're CC-starved and don't have that many of them, because of your priority as a damage threat lategame.
It doesn't matter how much CC they have--QSS is still going to get rid of one stun/snare/Exhaust. Unless you expect to never get hit with any of those (and Riven is a melee champ that's a huge damage threat--you have to be retarded NOT to use those on her), QSS is still going to have similar value.
Unless you plan on buying a hexdrinker early, it's in no way comparable to QSS. The typical Riven item path consists of at least rushing two very important items on her: wriggles and bloodthister. You have no time to throw in a hexdrinker in there and it would be fairly wasteful to that end unless there's a specific reason/matchup that calls for it (I wouldn't know what that is...maybe Akali?).
I dont really consider wriggles a core item on riven. I have more lane dominance success going 1/2 dblade and brutalizer and just buying 3 pots at each back than going for a wriggles.
On December 09 2011 13:34 deth2munkies wrote: Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT.
I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD.
there is that shield.
And QSS has 20 more MR--which translates into more magic damage mitigated than the shield unless you're at pretty high MR values (Riven won't be).
As a reasonable example, suppose you have ~100 MR before Hexdrinker (reasonable with base + GA + Mercs + runes). Then Hexdrinker gives you 130 MR + 300 magic damage shield while QSS gives you 150 MR. With Hexdrinker you take 8.6% more damage, which means that QSS gives equal EHP at 3450 HP. You have 2k base HP at level 18, meaning you effectively have more than 3450 HP if you get 3-4 Es off in a fight, or 2 Es + GA proc--these two scenarios together probably make up the majority of proper teamfight scenarios, meaning that QSS mitigates more magic damage in most cases, even factoring in the shield.
On December 10 2011 01:10 deth2munkies wrote: QSS is better against CC heavy teams, if they have WW/Malz/etc. If they're just using AP carries like Ryze/Annie/Karthus/Cass, you're better off with Hexdrinker.
Why? Do you really miss 35 damage that much?
Even if QSS is only being used to shake an Exhaust, it's still probably worth more than the extra Hexdrinker damage. Any team that knows what they're doing will save a stun or Exhaust for you, even if they're CC-starved and don't have that many of them, because of your priority as a damage threat lategame.
It doesn't matter how much CC they have--QSS is still going to get rid of one stun/snare/Exhaust. Unless you expect to never get hit with any of those (and Riven is a melee champ that's a huge damage threat--you have to be retarded NOT to use those on her), QSS is still going to have similar value.
Remember that 35 damage + 20% from the ult = 42 damage total, that also buffs your shield.
It's mostly the shield. While QSS does prevent more damage in longer teamfights, most are decided by the initial wave of burst when the heroes I mentioned are present, and the hexdrinker shield can help you live through multiple CCs. The extra damage is just icing, but it does put you consistently over 300 much earlier, which is a crapton of damage.
Played riven a bit since shes free this week but how do you beat an udyr. had a few times now that he starts tiger and harass from the start and i cant trade with him so i just get zoned the entire time.
On December 10 2011 04:15 Gorsameth wrote: Played riven a bit since shes free this week but how do you beat an udyr. had a few times now that he starts tiger and harass from the start and i cant trade with him so i just get zoned the entire time.
Survive. Neither of you have poke, you have a minor CC and high mobility, he just runs and autos. Just focus on last hitting and you outscale him so hard that it's not funny. If he goes on you, get some damage off, stun, and shield the dot damage.
On December 11 2011 15:16 getpicture wrote: cooldown boots, 2 xbloodthirsters , 1 warmogs 1 black cleaver. expensive build but never lost with it.
with max stacks you have +1370 life, +250 damage, some armor shred, +30 attack speed, some armor shred, +50lifesteal, and 15% cdr.
I think the main weird thing is that you have a black cleaver... like I don't get why you want the attack speed or armor shred if you've already decided not to autoattack. In addition, you're very stack dependent. That means if you're better than your opponents your items are cost effective, and if you aren't then you'll keep losing stacks or not gain enough of them. I could never justify being too stack dependent since if I could keep my stacks up, my opponents sucked, and I would win anyways, and if I couldn't keep my stacks up, I would want more consistent items. Like do you keep a bf sword for as long as possible? Or do you make it into a bloodthirster as long as possible?
I guess you kinda have to go bloodthirster for characters like riven who need the AD.
I've been getting an infinity edge as my next bf sword item after bloodthirster. I feel like it's kinda important to get bloodthirster first as you can get it finished earlier than infinity edge and the lifesteal helps A LOT. But if the game goes long enough so that you can afford a second bf sword item after GA and LW, I think IE is a better choice than a second bloodthirster for the stability.
BC is just bad though. And if you're really going to go warmogs on riven for some godforsaken reason, I'd rather just get an atmas at that point. But this is bad and you should stop doing it.
On December 10 2011 02:21 deth2munkies wrote: Remember that 35 damage + 20% from the ult = 42 damage total, that also buffs your shield.
It's mostly the shield. While QSS does prevent more damage in longer teamfights, most are decided by the initial wave of burst when the heroes I mentioned are present, and the hexdrinker shield can help you live through multiple CCs. The extra damage is just icing, but it does put you consistently over 300 much earlier, which is a crapton of damage.
Wait, you're arguing that Hexdrinker is better against burst than QSS? When burst usually comes with CC, and QSS lets you, you know, disengage from a CC chain and potentially re-enter the fight a few seconds later with your healing and shielding to top yourself off?
Vs. Karthus/Cassi/Ryze, being able to drop a stun/Exhaust and disengage from their Q-spam/incidental AoE mitigates more damage than a measly 300 damage shield--hell getting away from 1 Karthus Q and out of his E 1 second sooner is already more than 300 damage avoided lategame.
Like I showed, you only need 3-4 shields or 2 shields + GA for the MR on QSS to be better than Hexdrinker's shield. If you're having trouble fitting 3-4 shields into a teamfight (or 2 + GA if you get focused early), you have bigger issues in your Riven play than your item selection.
And again, even factoring in the multiplier, not being able to cleanse an Exhaust or sitting out a stun loses you WAY more damage than 35 AD is worth.
On December 11 2011 15:16 getpicture wrote: cooldown boots, 2 xbloodthirsters , 1 warmogs 1 black cleaver. expensive build but never lost with it.
GA is straight-up a better survivability item than Warmog's for Riven. You get so much free effective HP from her shield that you want to heavily favor resists, and you don''t need the HP regen from Warmog's when you have so much lifesteal already giving you sustainability.
On December 12 2011 08:26 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: It's clearly situational. Some games will be hexdrinker and some games will be qss.
And pray tell, what situations would you actually buy Hexdrinker?
Vs. burst damage, QSS is better because it lets you cleanse and disengage. Vs. sustained damage QSS is way better because of the superior resists. If you're in an early-game situation where you can't really rush big items but need the damage and survivability from small components (the situation where it comes up for other champs), Riven still would rather turn 2 Longswords + Null-magic Mantle into Bruta + GA. Likewise, if you're in a later-game situation, Hexdrinker is only marginally better than buying Pickaxe + Negatron, and Pickaxe + Negatron turns into QSS + LW, rather than being a dead end.
What do you guys think about getting a Heart of Gold on Riven? Perhaps after vamp scepter but before finishing wriggles? I feel like the +hp is really good because Riven's main downfall when built wriggles-mercs-BTs is burst damage, but buying straight hp from warmogs or frozen mallet doesn't work because they are so expensive that you lose too much damage/shield amount. So HoG would more than pay for itself while also providing much-needed extra hp. Obviously you wouldn't want to get it every game (hard lanes just rush wriggles/resists), but if you feel like people are playing passively and the game will go long it seems pretty good.
if you're afraid of burst damage (only thing i would be afraid of is olaf with level 5 e really, idk what u mean by "burst damage" because your shield should offset that enough) get dblades, they're ridiculously efficient per gold if you need HP
QSS > hexdrinker, but i wouldn't get either of them unless they're ridiculously magic heavy. in extended fights the active on qss combined with multiple e's will get you more protection than the puny shield on hexdrinker would (your e protects more after getting a BT and some levels on e). the thing is in this game mobility and disengaging translate directly into avoided damage, just like dodge and spellshields, because if you're out of range or out of a cc chain and out of focus, that is damage that they can't put onto you and must relate onto someone else or be inefficient and save for you later when you come back into range and thus lose DPS. thus why kassadin is so powerful as a carry after he gets rolling because his kit gives him too much mobility to shut down and thus forces the opponent team to either play inefficiently or risk getting their squishies gibbed or their channels interrupted.
i've never ever had a problem with mercs and the null from GA midgame, and lategame with lifesteal and e have never ever had a problem against casters (use my teammates as meat shields wisely). 100 MR is sufficient for most comps unless they're running some triple AP (jungle top mid or something weird) in which case i would just grab the negatron and complete the qss whenever i felt i needed it
On December 12 2011 08:26 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: It's clearly situational. Some games will be hexdrinker and some games will be qss.
And pray tell, what situations would you actually buy Hexdrinker?
Vs. burst damage, QSS is better because it lets you cleanse and disengage. Vs. sustained damage QSS is way better because of the superior resists. If you're in an early-game situation where you can't really rush big items but need the damage and survivability from small components (the situation where it comes up for other champs), Riven still would rather turn 2 Longswords + Null-magic Mantle into Bruta + GA. Likewise, if you're in a later-game situation, Hexdrinker is only marginally better than buying Pickaxe + Negatron, and Pickaxe + Negatron turns into QSS + LW, rather than being a dead end.
Karthus ults you at 400 hp. oh thank god i bought a hexdrinker
It's a mid-tier item that's gives you slight damage + a temporary hp buffer, which means it's better on champs that already have a decent amount of MR/some type of damage mitigation (garen's w for instance) and need some damage too for a midgame fight. For a champ like riven, who already has a shield, additional armor + MR is simply better, and you should get damage from real damage items, not a mid-tier hybrid item like hexdrinker.
I dont like hexdrinker on Riven 'cuase hexdrinker is strictly a midgame item when Riven is an early and late game beast. Why itemize for midgame when you should just be either a. rolling face already or b. afk farming.
hexdrinker is a nice first item against primarily magic dmg opponents as an AD. Getting 2 dblades + hexdrinker vs an AP mid as pantheon, for example, is something i do every once in awhile, and then just skip bruta and go for bloodthirster from there. It's a pretty sexy cheese that will often catch ppl off guard, but i wouldn't use it under any other context.
Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
On December 12 2011 14:08 barbsq wrote: hexdrinker is a nice first item against primarily magic dmg opponents as an AD. Getting 2 dblades + hexdrinker vs an AP mid as pantheon, for example, is something i do every once in awhile, and then just skip bruta and go for bloodthirster from there. It's a pretty sexy cheese that will often catch ppl off guard, but i wouldn't use it under any other context.
I can't think of a time I got Hexdrinker first. That said, I will get Hexdrinker if I feel we have a shot at winning in the mid game, and their team has a lot of magic damage. I mean they would need to have magic damage on at least 4 guys, but junglers like udyr and shyv do magic damage, MF/Trist/Ez all have sorces of magic damage, 95% of mid laners are scaling their ap, even some top laners like nassus/gp/ww all have some source of magic damage. The build would look something like 2 dorans or wriggles (depending upon the match up), brutalizer, hex drinker, agesis, and boots in there. The problem with doing this is if you end up going into a late game you're putting you self behind as you're going to need to sell the mid game items in favor of BT's, which puts you behind from where you would have been just going strait for BT's. If your team has a lot of mid game scaling champs, like Ez, Zilean, Nunu. It makes sense to try to end the game earlier when they're at their strongest.
On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote: Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
I play at fairly low level and every Riven I play with on free Riven week feeds super hard. Like probably 10 in a row going like 0/10 and ridiculously bad scores like that. WHY?!
On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote: Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
SotO is nvr a reliable item to buy
i think he means sotd, kus he says start with dagger and potion, which would be weird kus it doesn't build into any of the items he lists, and SotO and SotD are very often confused
edit:
On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote: Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
On December 12 2011 14:08 barbsq wrote: hexdrinker is a nice first item against primarily magic dmg opponents as an AD. Getting 2 dblades + hexdrinker vs an AP mid as pantheon, for example, is something i do every once in awhile, and then just skip bruta and go for bloodthirster from there. It's a pretty sexy cheese that will often catch ppl off guard, but i wouldn't use it under any other context.
I can't think of a time I got Hexdrinker first. That said, I will get Hexdrinker if I feel we have a shot at winning in the mid game, and their team has a lot of magic damage. I mean they would need to have magic damage on at least 4 guys, but junglers like udyr and shyv do magic damage, MF/Trist/Ez all have sorces of magic damage, 95% of mid laners are scaling their ap, even some top laners like nassus/gp/ww all have some source of magic damage. The build would look something like 2 dorans or wriggles (depending upon the match up), brutalizer, hex drinker, agesis, and boots in there. The problem with doing this is if you end up going into a late game you're putting you self behind as you're going to need to sell the mid game items in favor of BT's, which puts you behind from where you would have been just going strait for BT's. If your team has a lot of mid game scaling champs, like Ez, Zilean, Nunu. It makes sense to try to end the game earlier when they're at their strongest.
i think you missed the point, hexdrinker is not an item i get for midgame or for any reason other than simply as a pure counterpick to crush my lane very early on, so it doesn't matter what the rest of the team is made of, only your lane opponent. in fact, i wouldn't even recommend getting brutalizer before it, because by that time, it would be too late to really press its advantages. It's also a bit cute vs karthus and garen (tho not necessarily good). It's a really niche item choice, that i buy every once in awhile, because it's stronger in the laning phase than qss is (imo). Nearly all other situations tho, qss will be 100x better.
On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote: Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
SotO is nvr a reliable item to buy
i think he means sotd, kus he says start with dagger and potion, which would be weird kus it doesn't build into any of the items he lists, and SotO and SotD are very often confused
either way I don't think it's a very good build. Sword of the Divine is pretty niche and in 90% of cases I'd rather get a phantom dancer or last whisper.
My bad start longsword one pot. I was just really upset at all the feeders, ragers, leavers I had in the previous games. So I went SotO first, ended the game 25-3-10 and I was one of two people in the entire game with a positive score. In a side note, Longsword should be called dagger because it looks like a dagger, and dagger should be called light saber because it looks like a light saber.
On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote: Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
SotO is nvr a reliable item to buy
i think he means sotd, kus he says start with dagger and potion, which would be weird kus it doesn't build into any of the items he lists, and SotO and SotD are very often confused
either way I don't think it's a very good build. Sword of the Divine is pretty niche and in 90% of cases I'd rather get a phantom dancer or last whisper.
yeah, i agree. sotd is strong against jax and low armor targets, and while jax comes to top every once in awhile, low armor targets almost never do.
On December 12 2011 14:07 Ryuu314 wrote: I dont like hexdrinker on Riven 'cuase hexdrinker is strictly a midgame item when Riven is an early and late game beast. Why itemize for midgame when you should just be either a. rolling face already or b. afk farming.
That's really stupid reasoning most games end before the lategame and if you are already so strong lategame why not buy it so you stay on longer in midgame? Anyway, hexdrinker is a "midgame item" only in terms of "not that strong for the slot if you're full items" and "doesn't scale with lategame for AD carries". You're not an AD carry, who relies on crit for lategame damage. You're a bruiser and you scale mostly off AD, so an item that gives you AD and mr is great when you want MR.
On December 12 2011 14:07 Ryuu314 wrote: I dont like hexdrinker on Riven 'cuase hexdrinker is strictly a midgame item when Riven is an early and late game beast. Why itemize for midgame when you should just be either a. rolling face already or b. afk farming.
That's really stupid reasoning most games end before the lategame and if you are already so strong lategame why not buy it so you stay on longer in midgame? Anyway, hexdrinker is a "midgame item" only in terms of "not that strong for the slot if you're full items" and "doesn't scale with lategame for AD carries". You're not an AD carry, who relies on crit for lategame damage. You're a bruiser and you scale mostly off AD, so an item that gives you AD and mr is great when you want MR.
1) If you're buying midgame teamfight items, you expect to teamfight with them. The thing is Hexdrinker is at its strongest during a period where you don't want to be teamfighting. It's best at the point in the game where you're saving for your BT/GA, and Hexdrinker isn't worth spending the gold on if you're just going to be split-pushing and farming at that point in the game. Throwing yourself into fights at that stage of the game has the potential to just set you back on farm if thing's go poorly, because it's arguably the point in the game where you're weakest--you've passed your period of oppressive lane dominance, and haven't farmed the big items you need to become a teamfight monster. With such a good lategame, it's much more stable to sit back and secure your lategame development at that stage of the game, rather than trying to force yourself to fight during a period of the game when you're not strong.
2) Hexdrinker is not that good compared to big ticket MR/AD items. As shown last page, QSS is much more reliable for doing Hexdrinker's job of keeping you in the fight against magic damage, and BT/IEdge are obviously more cost-effective AD sources. Hexdrinker is aimed toward AD casters midgame who can't afford to miss their prime-time trying to farm up Negatron Cloaks and BF Swords for the bigger and better AD/MR items--so they finish Hexdrinker to get into the action quickly. That's not Riven's prime-time to begin with, so she's not missing out on anything using that time to farm items that are ultimately better than Hexdrinker.
like what do people even think riven's "lategame" and strong points are? She's strong earlygame, midgame/lategame (whatever you describe these as because I don't know what point you guys are thinking of), super lategame.
the biggest lull in riven's strength is when she's saving for her first BF sword / item, no doubt. lots of toplaners with high base damage on skills or natural tankiness and disruption (udyr, irelia, etc... ) are stronger than her in teamfights at this point if neither has decidedly won the lane. after she completes the sword and from there to the time when she has BT and/or GA (or GA parts) she is on par with them in damage. after she completes BT and/or GA she's stronger than the majority of similarly farmed toplaners and continues to be if she continues to farm up (i consider this to be her "midgame" because 5600 gold is not too hard to get by a reasonable time if you farm well, that's just my definition for it)
as yango says, i don't see where you would want to put in hexdrinker in any of these stages. if you put it in before you get your first BF sword, you would only be able to keep up with other toplaner's strength in teamfights, and are just delaying the point where you finish your first BT and outdamage them in teamfights. If you grab it after you get your BF sword instead of completing your BT, I have nothing to say to you. if you get it after you get BT and GA, i mean i guess you could get it because by that point you should be destroying them regardless, but for that money you could grab pickaxe and a negatron cloak and have similar survivability + damage increase while building towards items that scale so much better into the lategame (the cleanse active and LW passive are so, so, so much better than the mediocre AD and small shield that hexdrinker gives you) or just buy a BF sword for another BT or iedge (i still have never experienced the need to get a negatron cloak in almost any of my games as riven, if you're eating full AP comboes you're doing something wrong in the first place or they're playing in such a way that your teammates should be able to wreck them, i.e. saving spells just for you so that your teammates can wreck them in the meanwhile)
lastly, for emphasis. When would you want a 300 damage shield on a item that costs 1800 gold when you as a champion have a shield that shields 300+ HP with a BT alone on a 6 second cooldown? combine that with guardian angel and i see very few to no circumstances that another BF sword would not be just as or more helpful as well as not building into kickass items in the very nearby future. whether or not it is good on champions that don't have such an abusable low CD shield, that's up for you to decide. but we're talking about riven. this is the last time i'm gonna type about hexdrinker, if you want it get it. i sure won't.
How do you guys use riven in teamfights? I've been playing riven on and off and do extremely well in lane (up 2 or 3 kills with cs advantage), but whenever i enter team fights, I get cc-ed and bursted down pretty fast. If I build tanky, I make very little impact in terms of damage, if I build damage, I die immediately. Do you play riven as a bruiser to initiate and soak damage or more of an ad carry/cleanup guy?
damage and cleanup, if i had to choose between one of those two, but more finesse involved. building damage makes it so that you dont want to eat initiation damage from the enemy team unless you're ridiculously fed and have your GA completed absurdly early, so just output damage whenever you can and let your shield absorb as much damage as possible. if you have another strong tanky midgame threat (irelia, olaf, karthus (well i say tanky but karthus is unique), amumu, nocturne, whatever, go in slightly behind them and see how they react. if people try to 5 man jump you let the other person and your ad and ap pound on them, and pull back with q and e if either is up, and they will get destroyed. if they commit any significant cc to your teammates go in and kill them.
If you're going to buy hexdrinker, you're not getting BT. You're getting wriggles/hexdrinker/phage, maybe mallet, atmas, maybe a GA, that kind of things. BT isn't really strong its not a game where you can sit top and farm stacks. If teamfights start early maybe because of dragon sitting waiting for that BF sword of BT kinda hurts.
I always do really well with riven in teamfights. You have like 2 free flashes along with your actual flash its absurd. You do damage on their front line from a safe distance or go in if they are committing to your squishies.
BT GA kicks in faster than atmogs but it sure as hell isn't quicker to complete and still relies on stacking.
Also, can riven with wriggles and BF sword still lane against an udyr/irelia with lots of armour and wriggles as well? I was assuming that kind of situation when you'd choose to get smaller items when you can't farm for long durations to save up money.
i'm not even going to type about hexdrinker, i'm going to pick apart the rest of your argument.
On December 13 2011 05:26 Slayer91 wrote: BT isn't really strong its not a game where you can sit top and farm stacks. If teamfights start early maybe because of dragon sitting waiting for that BF sword of BT kinda hurts.
why can you not sit top and farm stacks. toplane is THE afk farm lane unless either jungler is apply absurd pressure (note: free dragons anybody?) or someone picked a really bad matchup or either laner is dumb. the reason why i take teleport is so that i can explicitly do so (farm and farm stacks when needed). if you need more presence in early game teamfights, i pick up GA pieces for extra tankiness, but getting a BF sword is not that impossible. the combined price of two gp5 items are about the same as a BF sword, and plenty of toplaners can afford it. depending on the teams in question, early dragons may or may not be as big of an issue, but more often than not rather than what items you have as a toplaner, the time at which you teleport as well as the way the mids, bottoms, and jungles interact have a lot more impact upon the result of the dragon fight.
On December 13 2011 05:26 Slayer91 wrote: BT GA kicks in faster than atmogs but it sure as hell isn't quicker to complete and still relies on stacking.
300 gold difference. sure as hell isn't quicker to complete? you make it sound like there's some huge difference in gold. atmogs makes you tanky and fairly ignorable. BT GA makes you a damage dealer with a huge shield that is unignorable and also tanky with the GA active up.
On December 13 2011 05:26 Slayer91 wrote: Also, can riven with wriggles and BF sword still lane against an udyr/irelia with lots of armour and wriggles as well? I was assuming that kind of situation when you'd choose to get smaller items when you can't farm for long durations to save up money.
Yes. if your bf sword is actually complete you definitely can. when you get your BT you can destroy them in sustain or burst battles as well. the problem is farming up to the BT, and wriggles usually allows you to do that. some laners if they mirror wriggles can beat you in sustain, but the lane is farmable at tower if you know how to lasthit.
note that this is all assuming similar farm, so if you're getting outcsed like crazy don't blame it on the build
navitar just gave me like a 2 hour tutorial on riven and toplaning in general and i feel like the most unstoppable force in the universe. maybe he was going easy on me but i think it's more just that riven is brokenly OP. resourceless champion that has a DEFENSIVE ability (on a short cooldown) scale off an OFFENSIVE stat. it's loltastic
basically i'm just here to thumbs up this whole guide
What do you do against Kennen just fed him 0/4 t.t
He can kite you so well that you can't really be very aggressive against him, and he can harass you with a charged auto and his W along with his Q. I feel like you can't really do much against him, I opened null +2 and still fail.
5-0 with riven only person i haven't stomped is singed holy fuck what do you do in that matchup? just farm? he was just going past my tower to cut off my creeps then diving me with their mid. i still won lategame but a more competent team could have won before i got to that point
Wow, I just received my first thrashing as Riven. Should have been more careful against Olaf, especially when I read numerous times about how he's hard to play against.
Question: What about laning against wukong? I always play top lane riven, and have taken down almost everyone with ease except for wukong. No idea why. I think some of it may be that with his q's armor reduction, the cloth armor start is kind of negligible. If he starts with cloth armor, his q---> auto attacks might out dps you? I'm not entirely sure.
On December 16 2011 11:59 koreasilver wrote: Wow, I just received my first thrashing as Riven. Should have been more careful against Olaf, especially when I read numerous times about how he's hard to play against.
Laning against Olaf is really hard, if not impossible, mainly because he does true damage. Longer the lane goes on, the more true damage he does to you. And since you are (technically) building glass cannon Riven, you don't have enough health to evenly trade with his true damage. Only hope is to farm and wait for ganks.
On December 15 2011 17:20 Lokrium wrote: What do you do against Kennen just fed him 0/4 t.t
He can kite you so well that you can't really be very aggressive against him, and he can harass you with a charged auto and his W along with his Q. I feel like you can't really do much against him, I opened null +2 and still fail.
Just farm. If he tries to get aggressive, just charge him with the typical combo. Just don't get stunned. You get stunned = you get wrecked. As long as you dodge his Q, you should be in the clear to kill him. Unless he has his ult. In which case just run as fast as you can
On December 13 2011 02:00 Requizen wrote: How are people doing Jungle Riven nowadays? I keep trying her like I did pre-jungle changes, but it fails horribly.
sorry about the delayed response been busy with class mostly.
start:dorans
Jungle riven path is wolves -> blue with pulll -> wraiths wolves red (i b at this point or gank) buy armor. after this point its just trading off blues ganking and clearing as needed.
Ive followed navi's build scince ive seen it.
Tho im now running 24/6/0 masteries cause i don't think bladed armor or +136 health benefit riven much. the health regen helps top lane but it wont help in jungle since your popping pots to gank lanes anyhow.
On December 13 2011 02:00 Requizen wrote: How are people doing Jungle Riven nowadays? I keep trying her like I did pre-jungle changes, but it fails horribly.
sorry about the delayed response been busy with class mostly.
start:dorans
Jungle riven path is wolves -> blue with pulll -> wraiths wolves red (i b at this point or gank) buy armor. after this point its just trading off blues ganking and clearing as needed.
Ive followed navi's build scince ive seen it.
Tho im now running 24/6/0 masteries cause i don't think bladed armor or +136 health benefit riven much. the health regen helps top lane but it wont help in jungle since your popping pots to gank lanes anyhow.
Yeah, the normal build works well for jungle. However, I find that I'm often just ganking and roaming more than jungling and clearing, only forcing myself to go back for buffs or when the lanes are pushed too far to be of any use, and even then I often poke around the enemy jungle a bit. Do other Jungle Rivens play like this, hyper aggressively, or do you generally just stick to clearing and gank every now and then?
On December 20 2011 06:05 Requizen wrote: Yeah, the normal build works well for jungle. However, I find that I'm often just ganking and roaming more than jungling and clearing, only forcing myself to go back for buffs or when the lanes are pushed too far to be of any use, and even then I often poke around the enemy jungle a bit. Do other Jungle Rivens play like this, hyper aggressively, or do you generally just stick to clearing and gank every now and then?
That's how I usually play Riven. I do Red first then gank top/bottom depending which side I'm on, then usually go to gank mid, then do blue > wolves > wraiths then back to Mid, followed by top or bottom depending which lane looks better.
I start with Cloth Armor + 5 pots because it allows me to stay on the map for a loooong time ganking before I have to go back. I also run with Smite/Exhaust. Also, if you just attempted a gank and they blew some summoner spells, pretend you're leaving and just hide in the bushes. It might take a little while but so many players don't expect the jungler to still be in their lane, especially right after they attempted a gank, so they'll push up and play normal again. Little do they know the Q>Q, Q-Ministun > W-Ministun combo is coming!
Hm, I just feel that the "always gank" style of jungling makes riven suffer, since she's so item dependent. Unless you're getting kill on top of kill and dropping dragon, you're gonna be Wriggles/Mercs for a long time.
would you build differently vs AP top? so far i've gone against rumble (super easy, but not sure if it's because the rumbles i play are really bad. like spend 100% of their time attempting to kill me and miss all their cs), ryze, and vlad. would you still recommend cloth/5 opening and going for wriggles for sustain even though armor doesn't help that much? and i had difficulty vs ryze and vladimir and ended up leveling E over W and csing at tower / relying on ganks - am i being needlessly afraid or should i just not pick riven then? it seemed like at full health if i jumped from a brush or something i could kill ryze pretty easily but otherwise i just take so much damage every time i try to last hit...
On December 21 2011 15:31 danana wrote: would you build differently vs AP top? so far i've gone against rumble (super easy, but not sure if it's because the rumbles i play are really bad. like spend 100% of their time attempting to kill me and miss all their cs), ryze, and vlad. would you still recommend cloth/5 opening and going for wriggles for sustain even though armor doesn't help that much? and i had difficulty vs ryze and vladimir and ended up leveling E over W and csing at tower / relying on ganks - am i being needlessly afraid or should i just not pick riven then? it seemed like at full health if i jumped from a brush or something i could kill ryze pretty easily but otherwise i just take so much damage every time i try to last hit...
ryze and vlad are probably the two people i would go boots + 3 and ignite against 100% of the time because their burst / sustained damage early is not terribly strong (ryze's is not weak but his mana cannot support nonstop harass) but it gets so much stronger with levels / first back items. ryze, after he gets his tear, can always afford to rune prison you when you go in for your combo, and its hard to sustain with wriggles because his q has such a range advantage etc. so you need to dominate him early on and kill him as much as possible. vlad after he gets 7 can harass you at low cd and can pool your ult kill combo so is also a person you want to dominate early.
rumble is actually a very hard lane imo if he's good as he is against almost all top laners if he runes and builds correctly. i would probably get cloth5 or a variation of a pot opening (maybe mass pots would be better as his autoattack isn't a significant portion of his harass or damage) anyway just for the sustain because of how rumble functions before his first back (riven can outsustain him before he gets hextech and win by damage trades; whoever gets hextech / vamp or wriggles first will dominate the lane)
For jungle riven, what is the most efficient skill order? Is the lane order good enough still, or is a little more q early any good for extra aoe / passive procs?
On December 21 2011 16:07 Ryalnos wrote: For jungle riven, what is the most efficient skill order? Is the lane order good enough still, or is a little more q early any good for extra aoe / passive procs?
q w e then normal lane riven skill order cause its the most logical for the same reasons.
i farm until i see an opening to gank cause you need the gold. new jungle lets you farm on par with solo lane.
I actually have been fluctuating between E and W leveling first depending on my lane opponent. I'm sure others do as well, but I really noticed a difference in my sustain against heavy poking opponents with E first.
against heavy poking mana using opponents who can be run oom, e first can be very strong w against other melee bruisers tends to work well and is a good starting point for most rivens tho
Yeah, I always max e first vs gangplank, shielding before he shoots you is hard but rewarding and if you can do that well for like levels 1-9, you outscale him so hard. On another note, are there other hard matchups for riven besides Olaf, Renekton, Kennen, Tryndamere, Udyr, Ryze, and Teemo?
Teemo isn't too bad, since you have a decent chance at catching him. Udyr is annoying, but you can outscale him late game. I haven't had an Olaf problem, but most players are bad as him.
On the other hand, Swain is a bitch for her, like he is for every other bruiser. Riven has a good chance of getting out of Nevermove, but he'll just throw out birds and walk away, or Ult on your face and lifesteal you away. It's rather annoying.
Man, how do people play Riven against GP and Monkey? Those are probably the two match-ups where I have no idea what to do, and how to play it out, and always end up losing my lane or feeding. It might just be because I haven't played against them much, but I feel lost whenever I play against them. Any tips?
On December 26 2011 19:11 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Man, how do people play Riven against GP and Monkey? Those are probably the two match-ups where I have no idea what to do, and how to play it out, and always end up losing my lane or feeding. It might just be because I haven't played against them much, but I feel lost whenever I play against them. Any tips?
against gangplank, take E at level 1 or 2 instead of 3, then take levels of it until level 5 (skill level 3). E any time he parrrlay's you, preferably toward him so you can trade hits afterwards, assuming you have even or better creeps. after level 5, max W like normal, outfarm him and win lategame. it's a scary matchup at level 1 especially if he gets crits but you'll soon see the power of low-cooldown E will wear him out of mana and make him really easy to deal with
On December 26 2011 19:11 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Man, how do people play Riven against GP and Monkey? Those are probably the two match-ups where I have no idea what to do, and how to play it out, and always end up losing my lane or feeding. It might just be because I haven't played against them much, but I feel lost whenever I play against them. Any tips?
It's like impossible to trade hits with Monkey . His Q reduces your armor so much that you take like 2x more damage than you deal.
i don't emphasize this in mah guide but i'll say it here cuz TLers are so cool.
for anyone who gets creep aggro on a regular basis in toplane, and thus 100% of the time in jungle, the reduced creep aggro masteries in 1st tier defense are too good to give up. if i was in jungle i'd probably give up 1 point in armor for it, because 2 less damage per hit when you probably get in excess of 50 hits from neutrals in the jungle in just your first clear adds up.
so the build is doran blade, boots of speed, then another 3 dorans.
after that get complete your boots with berserkers greaves then get phage.
phage is a must because everyone keep running away.
so basically its 4 doran blade, berserkers graves and phage after that you can go blood thirsters etc whatever u like
get berserkers boots even if they have CC- its game changing because after tens of matches of testing and experimentation, even though riven isn't attack speed reliant, you are able to proc your passive that much faster.
wriggles isn't that good because more HP is always better because in the event there's magic damage.
try it out guy and let me know, i know it sounds ridiculous
On December 21 2011 15:31 danana wrote: would you build differently vs AP top? so far i've gone against rumble (super easy, but not sure if it's because the rumbles i play are really bad. like spend 100% of their time attempting to kill me and miss all their cs), ryze, and vlad. would you still recommend cloth/5 opening and going for wriggles for sustain even though armor doesn't help that much? and i had difficulty vs ryze and vladimir and ended up leveling E over W and csing at tower / relying on ganks - am i being needlessly afraid or should i just not pick riven then? it seemed like at full health if i jumped from a brush or something i could kill ryze pretty easily but otherwise i just take so much damage every time i try to last hit...
ryze and vlad are probably the two people i would go boots + 3 and ignite against 100% of the time because their burst / sustained damage early is not terribly strong (ryze's is not weak but his mana cannot support nonstop harass) but it gets so much stronger with levels / first back items. ryze, after he gets his tear, can always afford to rune prison you when you go in for your combo, and its hard to sustain with wriggles because his q has such a range advantage etc. so you need to dominate him early on and kill him as much as possible. vlad after he gets 7 can harass you at low cd and can pool your ult kill combo so is also a person you want to dominate early.
rumble is actually a very hard lane imo if he's good as he is against almost all top laners if he runes and builds correctly. i would probably get cloth5 or a variation of a pot opening (maybe mass pots would be better as his autoattack isn't a significant portion of his harass or damage) anyway just for the sustain because of how rumble functions before his first back (riven can outsustain him before he gets hextech and win by damage trades; whoever gets hextech / vamp or wriggles first will dominate the lane)
Could you go a little bit more in depth on "rumble is actually a very hard lane imo if he's good as he is against almost all top laners if he runes and builds correctly" please? I've been playing rumble a lot more recently and I'd like to know which off-beat runes and builds you think are viable in certain matchups.
so the build is doran blade, boots of speed, then another 3 dorans.
after that get complete your boots with berserkers greaves then get phage.
phage is a must because everyone keep running away.
so basically its 4 doran blade, berserkers graves and phage after that you can go blood thirsters etc whatever u like
get berserkers boots even if they have CC- its game changing because after tens of matches of testing and experimentation, even though riven isn't attack speed reliant, you are able to proc your passive that much faster.
wriggles isn't that good because more HP is always better because in the event there's magic damage.
try it out guy and let me know, i know it sounds ridiculous
Er. What Elo are you at that this is working so well for you?
With Riven, you are almost continuously alternating auto-attacks with abilities - aspd isn't that good and decidedly not worth giving up CC reduction. 4 Doran's blades is just way too much, you delay your big items(for Riven's amazing lategame) too long and you'll be selling them back really soon anyway.
Rumble is the absolute hardest hero for riven to lane against at top lane imo, if they open cloth armor 5 pots and have armor runes its hard not to get zoned + the fact that riven can't open philosophers stone vs magic users, i have no idea what to open, prob boots + 3 pots, mb hexdrinker or something after but those are definitely awkward esp since you have no lifeleech without wriggles
On December 26 2011 19:11 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Man, how do people play Riven against GP and Monkey? Those are probably the two match-ups where I have no idea what to do, and how to play it out, and always end up losing my lane or feeding. It might just be because I haven't played against them much, but I feel lost whenever I play against them. Any tips?
top lane is mostly about counters, so basicly you would need to open cloth armor 5 pots and use armor yellows and armor quints, so you have around 68 armor at lvl 1, vs gp open e first and something like ewqee at lvl 5 if you are fast enough you can e most of gps parreys and then go straight into boots, wriggles mb even ninja tabi after, monkey is just ez if you have enough armor and build right.
It makes sense. No reason you should be able to maximize damage AND killing potential at the same time. At least now there will be a bit more opportunity cost (and on a character with none, that is DEFINITELY a good thing).
On January 14 2012 17:02 broz0rs wrote: Riven getting nerfed next patch. Riot doesn't like how players are maxing W first.
Is it really a nerf though? It's hard to say without seeing the new numbers, but a big enough damage buff to Q could make riven even more of a beast in the early laning phase
On January 14 2012 17:02 broz0rs wrote: Riven getting nerfed next patch. Riot doesn't like how players are maxing W first.
Is it really a nerf though? It's hard to say without seeing the new numbers, but a big enough damage buff to Q could make riven even more of a beast in the early laning phase
Eh, what probably happens is that her Q get like +5 base damage while her W lose 15 or something.
Just played a ranked game where the riven went warmogs, frozen mallet, and atmas and still stomped on our nasus top. Then we won anyway and in chat the other team was lamenting how riven has a terrible late game.
anyway, I like the approach riot is taking in terms of leveling for damage vs leveling for cc. Riven's W is really what makes her a gigantic pain since it is such an obvious choice to max for winning your lane. Hard to say without seeing the numbers though.
Am i the only one whose biggest concern is the health regeneration reduction :D? I think this is going to hurt her laning quite a lot. Especially before wriggles.
Is it ok to lose vs irelia as riven or am i bad? I was kinda winning the lane early, got ~1/2 lvl advantage but then it turned out i was blind and didn't notice the maokai gank. After i went to lane irelia was lvl 9, i was lvl 8 and she was raping me, everytime i tried to trade i took ~ half of her life, she took 30% of mine but then she healed in half of a wave while i took way too long to heal.
Also for some reason she always landed way too many autoattacks with W active but i'm not sure why. Whenever i play irelia i get to use 2-3 autos, she hit like 5 per each activation o.o Maybe ms runes... Anyway my question is - how should one play riven vs irelia post 9?
It's impossible to lane against irelia later on in the laning phase. Her passive on hiten style just heals her for way too much for you to trade evenly with her.
You beat Irelia early, but she out-sustains you before you have Wriggles (and afterwards too if she buys it as well), and out-damages you while you're saving for BF Sword.
If you can't trade with her, then don't. There is absolutely no need for Riven to fight people if you're doing poorly in lane, because you can just farm, and crush her lategame because farm is worth more on Riven than almost anyone else.
That's the real power of Riven. It's not just that she's an insanely strong lane bully early--lots of laners can do that--but the fact that even if she runs into a matchup where she can't bully that hard, she can fall back on the fact that her potential late-game outscales anyone not named Tryndamere, Jax, or Nasus.
Hmm I feel the patch was really more of a nerf than a 'reshifting' of damage. (Even though I think Riven kinda needed it, she was too hard in toplane). The damage they added to Q seems not enough to warrant a change from the current skillorder, or what do you guys think?
Probably not. Once you start getting some AD items (basically just Wriggle's and BT), the difference in damage will become pretty minimal, it's more or less just a nerf to her early game stomping. Now it'll be more of a beating instead.
u can max any of her skills and do great in lane. i like maxing w for effectiveness in teamfights, as since it is instant AoE damage and cc it is more likely to land than all 3 procs of q on their team to immediate effect while lowering cd per level as compared to the constant 13 sec cd of q.
Honestly speaking, even if they gutted her Q/W damage enough to make her not such a huge lane bully, you could still probably play E-max builds, farm for 10 years, and crush everyone lategame as per usual.
she gains 36% and 40% cdr on her w and e respectively from leveling them from 1->5. q will have more damage per sec at all stages of the game, but consistently using your q sets up a pattern of predictability for ganks as well as being less likely to have e and w to escape from ganks as well as forcing you to commit to trades. everything in this game is risk reward, and if you feel if the reward from leveling any of her skills outweighs the respective risks (weaker in teamfights, easier to gank, more predictable, less mobile, less cc, etc.) then go ahead and do so. regardless of what you level you should be fine in most lanes, and in some lanes some skills are better than others, as might be obvious to some enemy laners whose mana you can drain or burst damage dealers who aim to get you low enough to dive in for the kill by maxing E and , as well as maxing w for enemies who have to bring the fight to you to win the lane (i.e. they dont want to trade farm with you) and/or are extremely mobile yet come into melee range to deal damage (renek & lee come to mind) or q versus those who typical w max builds come dangerously even in early fights yet are winnable if you had a little more oomph early (rumble) or those who you want to shut down early for fear of similar or stronger scaling in lane at least (trynda with wriggles is even harder to kill in lane than riven for similar mobility and cc and scales well into lategame). if you go with the last option you're kind of all in, and probably would want to run at least 1 of heal or ignite if you're planning on doing so.
On January 18 2012 06:10 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I just saw a really good ezrael carry my team. He solos a 1v2 lane vs cait and shyvana, and I only saw him miss 1 q. Got two double kills on them
On January 18 2012 01:00 Requizen wrote: Probably not. Once you start getting some AD items (basically just Wriggle's and BT), the difference in damage will become pretty minimal, it's more or less just a nerf to her early game stomping. Now it'll be more of a beating instead.
That's kinda what I meant, lategame it will be pretty neglectable.
Jungle Riven is now forced to wriggles cause of the weaker midgame farm, scince your w does not have as much burst you have to fight for at least 2 autos more so the armor + lifesteal helps.
Double dorans riven jungle is not only unviable and very snowball dependant but farms waaaaaaay weaker. also cause you clear slower with double dorans, you take more damage in jungle. so jungling after ganking is impossible compared to the wriggels which heals you so you can farm and go into another gank, where double dorans would be forced to fountain.
What do I do again Nasus? I try to charge in and stun him when I see him charge his Q but I only end up pushing because Riven goes all herp derp AOE time. I was able to force him to wither me a few times but it just wasn't enough. I've only had the matchup twice so I don't know it too well.
Riven should be able to shit on Nasus early. His only source of notable damage is Q. E to block that and you should be able to hit W and every Q unless he withers, in which case he's burning mana which is fine too. You trade with him early then you should be able to zone him from there on out. He can't get close to creeps = no lifesteal and he can't trade with you because of your shield. Just time your aggression better so you don't end up pushing hard or taking too much damage from creeps.
I was going to ask in GD, but remembered the note at the top of the thread (It's working!).
How are people building jungle Riven now, and what starting path do you use? I want to try her in the jungle, but I'm not sure what the best way to play it would be.
On January 27 2012 23:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I was going to ask in GD, but remembered the note at the top of the thread (It's working!).
How are people building jungle Riven now, and what starting path do you use? I want to try her in the jungle, but I'm not sure what the best way to play it would be.
She's a lot weaker now in the jungle, unforunately. Run AD Marks and Quints, pick up a Doran's Blade, get a good leash on red and go BALLS FUCKING DEEP. If someone is out of position with a Riven gank, they are almost certainly going to die or burn summoners. But Lee Sin is a lot better pick for what you're attempting to do.
On January 27 2012 23:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I was going to ask in GD, but remembered the note at the top of the thread (It's working!).
How are people building jungle Riven now, and what starting path do you use? I want to try her in the jungle, but I'm not sure what the best way to play it would be.
This is how I do it..
Start: I go cloth5 now, Dorans isn't as good as it used to be.
Build: Wriggle/boots/BT/GA Core usually IE, LW, or more BT after.
Runes/Masteries: 7Armor pen 2 AD marks, Armor seals, scaling MR glyphs(I intend to play around with AS blues one day to increase clear time, AD quints.
2AD marks because 10% Armor Pen + 18 flat lets out from runes/masteries let you deal true damage to jungle.
Route/Abilities: I've started going wraiths/red (possible gank here)/golems/wraiths/wolves/blue(possible gank or coutner jungle)/B.
Standard QWE start. R>W>Q>E (Most people like E before Q, I don't think either is "strictly better" with the recent changes)
Tip: When you get E, open with it into camps and let the mobs knock down your shield before you W. It makes for a much healtier jungle and gives the ability to gank after blue or counter jungle. Otherwise most of your shield's uptime you aren't getting hit because the camp is stunned.
If you Q directly after W you can cancel W's animation.
TL:DR When you get E engage a camp E>AA>Q>AA>W>Q>AA>AA>Q>AA
Why in the world are you taking Havoc and Demolitionist on Riven? Taking the crit masteries is just flat out better and if you really, really don't like the really strong crit masteries for some reason, I would still rather just put 4 points into the cdr mastery. Riven might be a heavy skill reliant champion, but she still relies on her autos a lot for her damage (passive).
I'm not stressed out about it, but setups are about optimizing to get the best advantage possible. If you give suboptimal setups it's promoting suboptimal play. Just saying. Scaling AD will be a good choice for Riven tho when it's patched in.
If I got the full leveled passive for BT and I have GA, if I die with GA the first time and revive, does the buff disappear too and i have to re-level it?
On January 29 2012 19:02 Kouda wrote: If I got the full leveled passive for BT and I have GA, if I die with GA the first time and revive, does the buff disappear too and i have to re-level it?
As far as i know, no. The same goes for baron buff and blue/red buff
R > w > q = e IMO W still best skill, q is good now too though so I don't ignore it. Something like 2 levels of e, 2 of q etc Except in lanes that mass e is called for, then r>e>w>q
On January 29 2012 19:02 Kouda wrote: If I got the full leveled passive for BT and I have GA, if I die with GA the first time and revive, does the buff disappear too and i have to re-level it?
I assume you wouldn't since when you die with GA still on, you don't lose buffs / stacks on stuff like mejais.
nbd e is more survivability and mobility (lowered CD and higher base value) which is more useful in lane imo q is more aoe damage which is nice in teamfights but the difference between a 10 second shield and a 6 second shield is bigger imo
preference and how well your team can peel for you
I dunno, lately I've been playing a ton of jungle and barely any top. Outside of RE(whatever) I don't think there is a BAD way to build her, and even that could have it's uses.
Honestly, I've been experimenting quite a bit with her because something just feels off about current standards to me.
Yeah, after trying it a bit, I think RWEQ is still best. The base number changes aren't huge when you have dat AD scaling, and the CDR on E levels is just to good to pass up.
since all the chatter in the GD thread about riven, i wanted to clear some things up about her
-riven does NOT feel pressured to "win" or "dominate" her lane. she outscales every single champ in the game so as long as she does the MINIMUM of last hitting, she is doing fine. it just so happens that she has a fantastic lane phase too -riven should always pure as pure of an AD build that she can afford. the way her shield works, she gets *more* hp out of building AD than she does out of building HP -resists are powerful on riven, moreso than HP -there are 15 creeps in the jungle, meaning if you can pick up a creep from lanes every pass, you'll fill your bloodthirster in 2 jungle runs -that being said, riven jungle doesn't bring much to the table compared to trundle, skarner, udyr, shyvana, ww, maokai, etc. she's far better in lane because (a) she needs lane levels of farm, and (b) she doesn't function well with shurelia/aegis/starks style builds -riven is a CARRY
just saw wickd max Q first, not sure if he followed that up with W or E but it was doing sick damage to creep waves. thoughts on this? i think he was going for more sustained damage going wriggles mallet atma's and maxing Q, having maokai and anivia to lock down targets
On February 08 2012 09:29 FuzzyLord wrote: It's probably because her Q now out damages her W. Just get 1 point in W for the stun, then just Q AA Q AA Q AA your way to victory.
You max W because having 2/3 the CD on W scales way better, both on damage and on utility. Q gives you a flat boost to damage early, but W's CD scaling means that the more AD you have, the more W's damage output catches up.
W-max beats Q-max in terms of damage output at ~150ish bonus AD, which is basically Wriggles + BT + some other incidental AD. That's also not considering how having stuns every 7 seconds rather than every 11 is hugely different.
On February 08 2012 09:29 FuzzyLord wrote: It's probably because her Q now out damages her W. Just get 1 point in W for the stun, then just Q AA Q AA Q AA your way to victory.
You max W because having 2/3 the CD on W scales way better, both on damage and on utility. Q gives you a flat boost to damage early, but W's CD scaling means that the more AD you have, the more W's damage output catches up.
W-max beats Q-max in terms of damage output at ~150ish bonus AD, which is basically Wriggles + BT + some other incidental AD. That's also not considering how having stuns every 7 seconds rather than every 11 is hugely different.
Though scaling on her W IS better, thats for late game. Laning phase, you want to max Q since the flat damage you get from it vastly outscales any bonus damage you get from bonus AD on your W. Theres about a 40~ damage difference between lvl 1 Q and lvl 1 W. Leveling her Q, however, increases your damage output exponentially. At level 2, you do about 100+ more damage than your W, level 3 is even more, etc. you would have to have a LOT of bonus AD to be able to make your W outdamage your Q. You also have to take into account that that bonus 150 AD adds to Q damage as well, so you would actually have to have 300+ more damage to actually outdamage your Q. On the point about the 11 to 7 second stun. Early game, i don't think it is really that important. It just makes you actually have to think before blindly hitting W. IMO, i think that the early damage potential is more important than consistent CC. Champions like Udyr, Irelia, etc. will just scoff at the .75 second stun and just heal everything back up. Her Q, however, has the potential to push these kinds of champions out of lane purely because of the immense damage output.
On February 09 2012 01:03 Zhiroo wrote: How do you deal with Nasus as Riven? I had a game where I no matter what I did he just traded me back and kept farming and even killed me twice easy.
That shouldn't happen at early levels. You need to bully the crap out of him with your superior early game damage and deny those last hits. Riven also doesn't care about Wither, as your dashes should get you away 100% of the time. Trade with him, don't attack when his ult's up, and just try to get ahead and deny his Q farming. He's as strong as you late game (though in different ways), so you have to just keep your lead on him as long as you can.
On February 09 2012 01:03 Zhiroo wrote: How do you deal with Nasus as Riven? I had a game where I no matter what I did he just traded me back and kept farming and even killed me twice easy.
That shouldn't happen at early levels. You need to bully the crap out of him with your superior early game damage and deny those last hits. Riven also doesn't care about Wither, as your dashes should get you away 100% of the time. Trade with him, don't attack when his ult's up, and just try to get ahead and deny his Q farming. He's as strong as you late game (though in different ways), so you have to just keep your lead on him as long as you can.
You forgot one very important thing: stay out of his E at all costs. If he hits you with a Q while you're in the fire, you'll lose the trade in all likelihood.
i'd say that it is better at pushing advantages at early levels and in very close matchups that can be won with a slight number gains (vs olaf run ignite , dblade stack, and Q > W > E to fight)
in lanes where you will have an advantage anyway or is hard to force kills against i am still comfortable getting W>E>Q for teamfight power and stronger midgame with BT
21-9-0 probably better in most cases unless you can really make use of the reduced timer on flash / teleport if those are the masteries you are running aka if you're not doing TP vs TP toplane it'll probably be fine
Does the Navi from this thread = Navitar the summoner? If so your riven stats are obscene. I don't own Riven but when i lane against one i find that she pushes lane really hard when trying to bully me. Just played vs a riven as nasus and she had the advantage but all that AOE pushed my right into my comfort zone next to the tower. Don't see how this won't happen every time, opening you up to ganks.
Q doesn't draw creep aggro, depending on how willing they are to react to / initiate harassment it varies from game to game. but when i started playing riven i also realized my tendency for riven (and all toplaners, in general) was to push.
pushing gives you an innate advantage in lane (more levels / skills / less creep aggro when stand and fight) but also obvious disadvantages (easier to gank, lets passive weak laners farm at tower).
by the nature of her harassment she will push most waves against enemies who play passively and don't attempt to take the creep advantage; against these, you can simply push the wave to tower at around the 3rd or 4th wave (you should be near 3) and back if you deem it fit (need ward asap against say Lee sin etc.).
if the creepwave is large enough (i.e. the enemy is extremely passive) then the creepwave should hold the enemy's creepwave and then let it push out, i.e. the next creepwave that pushes out from the enemy contains half of their 4th or 5th wave and their 6th, which will push towards your tower. at this point you can zone the enemy laner from EXP if they are so passive and unable to fight with you.
this kind of basic creep manipulation is extremely easy to do against, say, a very passive nasus.
Thoughts on scaling AD runes for Riven? I tried them out a few times, but giving up earlygame power that doesn't pay off until lategame doesn't seem worth it except for in cases in which you are like 100% sure you're gonna be playing passively early. Since she's super strong early and then kinda falls off midgame until you get a big AD item, weakening her earlygame and leaving her midgame still mediocre leaves you weaker overall for the first like 15ish minutes of the game.
But since AD/lvl reds pass flat AD reds by level 7 rather than 9 (where AD/lvl quints catch up), would it be worth it to switch your quints to ArPen and make your reds to AD/lvl and then get an early Brutalizer? Seems like would make your midgame pretty damn strong when teamfights start breaking out, which is where Riven really rapes. Of course this would be situational, but still might be worth trying out. Opinions?
edit: The general idea is that if you know you won't be able to do much early, then you purposely gimp your earlygame and just focus on a stronger mid/lategame. In retrospect a Brutalizer might not be the item to build for this, but I do think the runes could work.
AD reds can work. However I get the feeling they are lackluster against a wriggles(haven't done the math though). Lategame the dropoff isn't that bad. I did a bunch of napkin math when I saw Chaox was using ad marks on all his ad carries, sans MF, and I think the largest split I got was around a 9-15 damage difference lategame. The more armor they had, the smaller the margin got.
ArP reds / AD quint is the better mix split though.
EDIT: Just ran into this in the official forums. X is AD Y is armor. Colorcoded by which is the best for the situation. http://i.imgur.com/WKwAv.png
Is that math for flat AD reds or AD/lvl reds? Because I was talking about AD/lvl ones and I figured gaining ~15 more AD for the cost of ~5 ArPen (+21.87 AD at lv 18 and +9.99 ArPen vs +14.94 ArPen and +6.75 AD) would be pretty worth it, especially after considering Riven's scaling with AD. I'm not sure though, I can't do the math atm.
Oh, sorry for missing that. That's for flat AD. I don't think it'd ever be worth it, by the time that /lvl ones catch up to flat I think the ArPen pulls ahead.
Okay I finally got around to doing the math (correctly I hope).
Assuming you have an extra +6 ArPen and +10% ArPen from masteries, and that you are level 16 with a Wriggles, 2 DBlades, and a fully farmed BT:
With AD/level reds and ArPen quints (~260 AD, 16 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~148 damage Against a 150 armor target you do ~118 damage Against a 200 armor target you do ~98 damage Against a 250 armor target you do ~84 damage
With ArPen reds and flat AD quints (~248 AD, 21 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~145 damage Against a 150 armor target you do ~115 damage Against a 200 armor target you do ~95 damage Against a 250 armor target you do ~81 damage
So yeah it looks like AD/level is better for a mid/endgame setup. If you go even more endgame and add a LW to all those items and that you're level 18,
With AD/level reds and ArPen quints (~308 AD, 16 ArPen, 50% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~217 damage Against a 150 armor target you do ~185 damage Against a 200 armor target you do ~161 damage Against a 250 armor target you do ~142 damage
With ArPen reds and flat AD quints (~293 AD, 21 ArPen, 50% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~210 damage Against a 150 armor target you do ~178 damage Against a 200 armor target you do ~155 damage Against a 250 armor target you do ~137 damage
So the AD/level pulls more ahead. This also doesn't take into consideration the fact that Riven's abilities scale extremely well off of her AD, so in reality it's even better than the margin these numbers show. The ArPen red page catches up extremely slowly as the target gains more armor, but it won't actually pull ahead in any possible scenario in LoL (it hadn't caught up by 2,000 armor). I think it's a decent runepage to consider taking situationally.
Edit: And just because I was curious, here's an earlygame scenario as well.
Assuming you have an extra +6 ArPen and +10% ArPen from masteries, and that you are level 9 with a Wriggles and 2 DBlades:
With AD/level reds and ArPen quints (~133 AD, 16 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~76 damage Against a 150 armor target you do ~60 damage
With ArPen reds and flat AD quints (~129 AD, 21 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~75 damage Against a 150 armor target you do ~59 damage
So basically AD/level reds and ArPen quints are worse super early and then pull ahead as the game progresses.
And of course all of this has absolutely no bearing whatsoever if I math'ed wrong
i mean if u can get to level 9 safely every game then per level runes would be hands down superior to flats. but there's a reason why they are often not
Ah yeah, I was talking about using those runes in cases where you're going to be playing relatively passively pre-6 anyway, so you might as well limit your earlygame power that you can't quite take advantage of and just focus on mid/lategame. They catch up at around level 7-8 depending on your AD anyway which isn't that bad, and you probably won't even be thinking getting a kill until level 6-7 if it's a lane that you're at a disadvantage in anyway...idk I suppose another option in lanes like that would be to take armor quints over AD quints so you can farm more easily, do you think that would be better? Both options have the same underlying idea about giving up earlygame shit so you can end up with a stronger lategame, one is just much safer since you can otherwise get zoned easily and lose farm and end up with a bigger disadvantage..
But even in that case, I take armor quints a lot against lanes that can be tough, and even in those lanes where you have to play a bit passively, jungler and midlane ganks are always going to be a possibility, and when such events arise you are really going to have to make use of your damage, which makes armor pen reds to be preferable. Even looking at your calculations the damage differences really seems negligible at lvl 16. I'd much rather take the greater damage potential in lvl 1-6 which is the most important part of the laning phase.
armor is good for playing passively but it is also great for attrition flat MR / armor quints are two of the best for toplaners imo given how most toplaners play
I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong.
I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
Hey so how viable is riven solo top? I usually get ragged on when I call that even though I always dominate. I will say though I don't know what to do I'n teamfights (I assume my teammates are retarded but who knows) so what do I do I'n teamfights?
On February 27 2012 05:43 MindBreaker wrote: Hey so how viable is riven solo top? I usually get ragged on when I call that even though I always dominate. I will say though I don't know what to do I'n teamfights (I assume my teammates are retarded but who knows) so what do I do I'n teamfights?
Pop ult/Shield dash and w the carry start qing for the bonus damage make sure your autos get off. if she isnt dead by the time the stun wears off shockwave her while shes running. if shes still alive your either a)targetting the super tanky carry that actually isnt doing shit b)Super behind.
after that just walk around and try to stun 2+ people and clean.
@Navitar: Yould you upload some recent Riven replays (preferably Nautilus patch)?
I feel like I'm on a bad streak with her right now, and I'd like to see if I can do things better, especially in teamfights. Since s.o. just recently also asked about teamfights, it would be incredibly nice to see 1 or 2 replays which are teamfight centric.
THERE'S NO ONE LEFT -> flash or E into their team -> W -> hit Q hit Q hit alternate vs their squishy -> ulti when you can kill him, try to hit others -> spam everything when it's off cd.
On February 27 2012 05:39 iCanada wrote: I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong. I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
-.-
This is exactly my problem as well. Thing is, even if a fight starts I usually have to q at least twice to get to anything after which people either just run away or they start focusing me and I can't escape because q is on cd. Or what we get initiated on and before long support/ad is on half hp and it's either we engage and all die or don't engage and 2/3 of my team die and the opposing team takes a tower or something.
I've even tried building riven a bit tankier asap, like merc->wriggle ->ga before BT (actually by mistake because I bought chain mail >_>) and you can actually hop in without dying but then you do no damage and farm really slow, so that's kinda shit. Meanwhile if I go BT -> ga that's a lot of time spent without much survivability and then somehow I still get my face smashed in (even though I could usually inflict some damage on them).
I've never seen any pros do the "squishy" AD build (wriggle/doran/brut -> BF sword -> BT/LW/GA). Certainly not in pro matches, but not even in solo queue streams. They always go for stuff like Frozen Mallet. I don't really understand it, since if you're going to pick a bruiser why would you pick Riven over one of the countless guys who are meant to be built tanky? They say Riven does tons of damage even with bruiser itemization, which just isn't true at all.
I wonder if this is why you guys are having trouble playing carry-style Riven - people *expect* Riven to be tanky and be the one in the front line, and are silently cursing you for not initiating, while you're doing the same back to them.
I only see Westrice and Doublelift build like Navi when it comes to "pros". I've been seeing more and more people on random games build Riven like we do too, probably from seeing Navi's and Westrice's guides on solomid, but it's still pretty common to see people go wriggles -> mallet. I can kinda see how going phage early if you're maxing Q first can be good, but I'm really not buying the mallet rush thing. I'm honestly still not really into maxing Q first in lane. It's good for jungling, but idk.
On February 27 2012 05:39 iCanada wrote: I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong. I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
-.-
This is exactly my problem as well. Thing is, even if a fight starts I usually have to q at least twice to get to anything after which people either just run away or they start focusing me and I can't escape because q is on cd. Or what we get initiated on and before long support/ad is on half hp and it's either we engage and all die or don't engage and 2/3 of my team die and the opposing team takes a tower or something.
I've even tried building riven a bit tankier asap, like merc->wriggle ->ga before BT (actually by mistake because I bought chain mail >_>) and you can actually hop in without dying but then you do no damage and farm really slow, so that's kinda shit. Meanwhile if I go BT -> ga that's a lot of time spent without much survivability and then somehow I still get my face smashed in (even though I could usually inflict some damage on them).
Maybe I'm just playing with morons.
I don't think it is morons. I was playing fives with a couples buddies and I literally had to explain why Riven worked as a carry and how it worked. Made my friend Jungle Malphite and I grabbed a Pentakill.
It isn't morons, just ignorant players. Everyone think she supposed to be a bruiser for some reason.
I have the same problem with people expecting me to go a tanky build, and it's why I'm reluctant to play Riven in solo queue now. Even if we already have a tank, I still get teammates knowing nothing about riven saying "you need to build tankier" "build frozen mallet" "wow ga riven" despite having no response other than "no, lol noob" when I explain why Navi's build is superior. I guess I should probably just /ignore all at that point though. I can understand people wanting me to be tankier in some situations (like when I'm an early pick, and no one else picks anyone that can tank or initiate), but Frozen Mallet still seems like an absolutely terrible choice because I don't think Riven benefits at all from the slow.
But I'm also curious, what items would be ideal if you needed to build tankier? Maybe add things like aegis, hexdrinker, randuins, earlier GA components?
Hmm, I don't like taking HP on riven because just the AD gets you more... kinda like WW Resists scale better.
Maybe something like Wriggles->Mercs->BT->GA->Atmas->Hexdrinker? You lose out on Armor pen and about 30 AD as compared to LW+IE, but you get 40 armor and MR, should put you around 200 of each which realistically is pretty tanky considering you 2k base HP at 18, and the 1200~ you get from popping E in teamfights.
Not having the Last Whisper hurts though. <3 Armor Pen.
Realistically, most games you won't need both either. Just grab the corresponding resist to the one who is fed and grab the LW.
If you really need more resists then I sometimes either get atma's against heavy ADs or quicksilver against heavy APs.
and you basically just /ignore people if they think you're stupid for building Riven the way this thread tells you to. I've won so many lost games simply because the enemy Riven tried to build metagolem and dealt 0 damage in the lategame.
On February 27 2012 05:39 iCanada wrote: I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong. I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
-.-
This is exactly my problem as well. Thing is, even if a fight starts I usually have to q at least twice to get to anything after which people either just run away or they start focusing me and I can't escape because q is on cd. Or what we get initiated on and before long support/ad is on half hp and it's either we engage and all die or don't engage and 2/3 of my team die and the opposing team takes a tower or something.
I've even tried building riven a bit tankier asap, like merc->wriggle ->ga before BT (actually by mistake because I bought chain mail >_>) and you can actually hop in without dying but then you do no damage and farm really slow, so that's kinda shit. Meanwhile if I go BT -> ga that's a lot of time spent without much survivability and then somehow I still get my face smashed in (even though I could usually inflict some damage on them).
Maybe I'm just playing with morons.
I don't think it is morons. I was playing fives with a couples buddies and I literally had to explain why Riven worked as a carry and how it worked. Made my friend Jungle Malphite and I grabbed a Pentakill.
It isn't morons, just ignorant players. Everyone think she supposed to be a bruiser for some reason.
I was playing in a 5man premade and we had a jungle chogath who insisted I was to initiate >_>
fuck this
E: I think (from my very limited experience anyway) mallet is the best defensive item after GA riven can have. riven itself may not benefit from slow much but it's extra cc on your target that helps the team too. That said, I've only built mallet like once for the 20 games I've had with riven so..
On February 27 2012 05:39 iCanada wrote: I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong. I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
-.-
This is exactly my problem as well. Thing is, even if a fight starts I usually have to q at least twice to get to anything after which people either just run away or they start focusing me and I can't escape because q is on cd. Or what we get initiated on and before long support/ad is on half hp and it's either we engage and all die or don't engage and 2/3 of my team die and the opposing team takes a tower or something.
I've even tried building riven a bit tankier asap, like merc->wriggle ->ga before BT (actually by mistake because I bought chain mail >_>) and you can actually hop in without dying but then you do no damage and farm really slow, so that's kinda shit. Meanwhile if I go BT -> ga that's a lot of time spent without much survivability and then somehow I still get my face smashed in (even though I could usually inflict some damage on them).
Maybe I'm just playing with morons.
I don't think it is morons. I was playing fives with a couples buddies and I literally had to explain why Riven worked as a carry and how it worked. Made my friend Jungle Malphite and I grabbed a Pentakill.
It isn't morons, just ignorant players. Everyone think she supposed to be a bruiser for some reason.
I was playing in a 5man premade and we had a jungle chogath who insisted I was to initiate >_>
fuck this
You explain that all her abilities have good AD ratios, and that with her Passive/Ulti she literally has the best AD scaling in the game? With full item build you see her autos deal 1.2x(400+(15+(300x0.5))=678 without a crit assuming Ulti is up and you utilizing her passive. Considering to start a teamfight you can have 7(R+3Q+W+E+R) passive enhanced autos that is enough to have em throughout the entire teamfight. if you hit a crit with your IE that is an absurd 678x2.5=1695 damage.
Thats enough damage to gimp both carries within the ~10 seconds her combo takes without factoring in the (130+(300x0.7)x3=1020 splash damage from Q, or the (170+(300x1.0)=470 splash from her W... let alone her Windlash which has a 1.8 AD scaling on it. Thats like 2k splash damage easily (with minimum Windslash starting at (160+(bADx0.6))) on top of absurd AA damage.
If they see that maths and still think Riven should initiate you need to find different friends. I mean, that pre damage reduction, but thats still absurd.
I get raped by a nidalee, any advice on how to zone her ? Basically, she stays behind her creeps, sometimes in the bush and keep attacking me (no lance) et went for the kill when she was 6. She also got trap at level 1.
On February 29 2012 07:07 Erasme wrote: I get raped by a nidalee, any advice on how to zone her ? Basically, she stays behind her creeps, sometimes in the bush and keep attacking me (no lance) et went for the kill when she was 6. She also got trap at level 1.
I would say to open boots 3pot make sure you get an early valor (to dodge that damn spear) you should be able to destroy her straight up I would be super aggressive. She is annoying but you should be able to dominate her. Plus nidalee is pretty useless I'n teambattles.
On February 29 2012 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: Can someone tell me how her passive works?
after you use any skill (including 3 procs for her 3 uses of Q), you get a mark. you consume a mark when you auto-attack. marks add a set amount of AD to your auto attack. you can store up to 3 marks
On February 29 2012 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: Can someone tell me how her passive works?
after you use any skill (including 3 procs for her 3 uses of Q), you get a mark. you consume a mark when you auto-attack. marks add a set amount of AD to your auto attack. you can store up to 3 marks
Thanks. The description in game wasn't clear at all.
On February 29 2012 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: Can someone tell me how her passive works?
Sure. After each ability use (every press of q,w,e) you get a runic blade charge up to 3 charges. You expend these charges by auto-attacking each AA uses one charge dealing 5,7,9,11,13,15 + .5 per BONUS AD extra physical damage! Note that her ultimate stacks with this! So say u have a fully stacked blood thirster giving you 100AD then at lvl 18 each charge you use will deal 15+50=65 bonus damage so your full damage (not accounting for armour) would be 103(base ad at lvl 18)+100(fully stacked bloodthirster)+65(extra damage from passive)= 268 physical damage! If your ultimate is active it increases bonus ad by 20% so it would be an extra 20ad (20% of 100ad from bloodthirster) so it will do 288 physical damage!
On February 29 2012 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: Can someone tell me how her passive works?
after you use any skill (including 3 procs for her 3 uses of Q), you get a mark. you consume a mark when you auto-attack. marks add a set amount of AD to your auto attack. you can store up to 3 marks
On February 29 2012 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: Can someone tell me how her passive works?
after you use any skill (including 3 procs for her 3 uses of Q), you get a mark. you consume a mark when you auto-attack. marks add a set amount of AD to your auto attack. you can store up to 3 marks
Darn too slow.....
Not slow at all
Thanks!
I am new to LoL but not new to dota. I thought I'd try LoL and I ended up using Riven for 2 games (I picked her because her white hair looks kind of cool >__> ). I was a little stunned by the fact that none of her abilities use mana...
Anyway, by the look of things, I suppose +attack speed is not too useful on her.
On February 29 2012 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: Can someone tell me how her passive works?
after you use any skill (including 3 procs for her 3 uses of Q), you get a mark. you consume a mark when you auto-attack. marks add a set amount of AD to your auto attack. you can store up to 3 marks
Darn too slow.....
Not slow at all
Thanks!
I am new to LoL but not new to dota. I thought I'd try LoL and I ended up using Riven for 2 games (I picked her because her white hair looks kind of cool >__> ). I was a little stunned by the fact that none of her abilities use mana...
Anyway, by the look of things, I suppose +attack speed is not too useful on her.
Yeah the not having mana is amazing I use her and katarina because I love having no mana
On February 29 2012 10:56 MindBreaker wrote: Ugh riven free week is like the worst thing since cass free week. SO MANY IDIOTS STEALIN MY RIVEN!!!
Haha, pretty much... worst part is that they alll are terrible at her...
I saw one guy rush a warmogs on her. I was speechless. Nothing quite like seeing a Riven with Boots and a 10 minute Warmogs. Apparently solo queue was running out of ways to piss away leads. The amount of times I've heard "Wow, Riven is absolute trash in the late game..." kind of makes me want to cry.
Same with the held down Q button, for the love of god please auto attack... please.
Rawr, had to go against an Irelia top. Crapped on her levels 1~3, but after she got a couple items it just turned into a stalemate. How the hell is this matchup supposed to go? We just both ended up getting items as we pleased, but Irelia felt stronger later on than I did, since she just never fucking died and I was kind of squish until I got my GA.
Ire vs riven is an even lane generally. I'd say Ire has the advantage in a passive lane. but Riven has the advantage with doing things with ganks or getting away from ganks.
On March 03 2012 17:38 bobbob wrote: Ire vs riven is an even lane generally. I'd say Ire has the advantage in a passive lane. but Riven has the advantage with doing things with ganks or getting away from ganks.
I wouldn't consider it an even lane. Unless Riven gets ridiculously ahead really early on, I don't see how she's supposed to trade with Irelia once she has Wriggle's and maybe Tabi. Whenever she tries to engage, Irelia can eat a Q or two and then just go to town on her with EW. I'm generally able to zone Rivens once I have my first two items, and from this point on, it's an uphill battle for Riven. I just don't see how she can deal with your ridiculous sustain and true damage.
On March 03 2012 17:38 bobbob wrote: Ire vs riven is an even lane generally. I'd say Ire has the advantage in a passive lane. but Riven has the advantage with doing things with ganks or getting away from ganks.
I wouldn't consider it an even lane. Unless Riven gets ridiculously ahead really early on, I don't see how she's supposed to trade with Irelia once she has Wriggle's and maybe Tabi. Whenever she tries to engage, Irelia can eat a Q or two and then just go to town on her with EW. I'm generally able to zone Rivens once I have my first two items, and from this point on, it's an uphill battle for Riven. I just don't see how she can deal with your ridiculous sustain and true damage.
Yeah, Irelia will just beat Riven unless you manage to kill her several times. You can force Irelia off the creeps at the beginning, but she can still get near perfect farm under tower with Q, then come back after first buy and destroy you.
If you do manage to kill her early and get a level advantage, you can kill her at 6 easily, then she's your bitch for the rest of the game.
When would you buy Wriggles and when would you buy DBlades ?
I usually favor Dblades when armor isn't my #1 concern, and Wriggles only against pure physical. And with what you see top those days (WW, Shen, Jax, Olaf, ...), I end up going DBlades most of the time :/
Whenever i play riven (which isn't very often), i usually get wriggles+2 dblade, just because it's so cheap stats and it makes you able to farm up phage/bf sword easily.
That's just massive overkill. Unless you're getting completely dumpstered in your lane you shouldn't need both wriggles and dblades. I prefer wriggles personally because it's just less slots and lets you jungle/solo stuff easier. Dblades are better if you can't survive till you complete wriggles, I guess. Doesn't happen much at my level though >_>
I don't think it's overkill. There's the case that you might have wriggle's to win your lane, but come early-midgame skirmishes I'd rather gain an advantage abusing dblade's cost efficiency instead of having 1 ruby crystal and 1 long sword in my inventory.
On March 05 2012 01:36 NeoIllusions wrote: Wriggle's is more for lane sustainability. Blades give you additional HP to survive more burst damage.
Assuming your opponent went 25 arpen (assume the worst) then wriggles probably provides comparable burst survivability as 1-2 doran's blades. I can't be sure though.
On March 05 2012 11:23 R04R wrote: I don't think it's overkill. There's the case that you might have wriggle's to win your lane, but come early-midgame skirmishes I'd rather gain an advantage abusing dblade's cost efficiency instead of having 1 ruby crystal and 1 long sword in my inventory.
That implies that you're building phage, so not sure if serious.
On March 13 2012 00:15 Gahlo wrote: Anybody try 9/21/0 recently?
Nope, and honestly, I see no reason to do so. A champ who scales that well with the offensive tree and gains next to nothing from defense? IDK, there's a lot of aggressive champs I'd consider going 21 in defense, but Riven isn't one of them.
On March 06 2012 23:38 Gahlo wrote: Is anybody else really burnt out on Riven's lack of itemization? I can only stack BTs so many times. =\
Riven's depth comes from how you play her not how you build her. Who cares if you build the same items every game if there are 100 other ways you can improve your game.
I had heard in a shyvana player discussion, since I play her too, that it's all about landing her E. If Shyvana can land her E they will engage, otherwise it isn't worth it. Keeping safe behind minions seems to be the key. If they get frustrated and dive anyway they'll push it super hard.
Against Olaf, I have no idea what to do. Because of the health difference Olaf seems to come out too far ahead on his true damage, even if you shield it. That's also ignoring that it has a smaller cooldown as well.
On March 15 2012 22:47 Gahlo wrote: I had heard in a shyvana player discussion, since I play her too, that it's all about landing her E. If Shyvana can land her E they will engage, otherwise it isn't worth it. Keeping safe behind minions seems to be the key. If they get frustrated and dive anyway they'll push it super hard.
Against Olaf, I have no idea what to do. Because of the health difference Olaf seems to come out too far ahead on his true damage, even if you shield it. That's also ignoring that it has a smaller cooldown as well.
That's interesting to note, next time I'm up against a Shyvana, I'll try to see if that will work out for me
That game just felt so unfair. I beat him level 1, then I just get out damaged so hard by like level 3. I couldn't have been outplayed that incredibly hard I don't think... he just killed me so easily and I couldn't put any damage out on him. By the time we both had wriggles it was even but after that it was just all Udyr all the time.
On March 16 2012 20:29 Gahlo wrote: Whack him around early, then turn it into a farm lane. You scale better.
Thats what i tried to do. I dunno, it just felt like I couldn't damage him, and he could kill me very very easily if he forced a trade.
He had me pretty zoned in general, and granted their mid/jungle spent a lot of time in my lane. Bleh, I hate getting shut out like that, just feels so terrible. Time to grind ten games laning against Udyr with various tops.
How should the Riven vs Volibear matchup go? When I played it we were pretty even, but Volibear's kit (passive + execute) makes it super hard to tell whether you can win a trade or not. I was also pretty indecisive about my skill order (ended up having 2 levels in Q, W, and E at one point, because I accidentally leveled Q while not being sure if I needed to max E or not)... should I just try to passively farm and outscale him? With Q and E the fling was generally pretty avoidable, but using them as escapes means that if I ever try to cs while they're on cooldown I can't trade at all.
On March 17 2012 09:58 danana wrote: How should the Riven vs Volibear matchup go? When I played it we were pretty even, but Volibear's kit (passive + execute) makes it super hard to tell whether you can win a trade or not. I was also pretty indecisive about my skill order (ended up having 2 levels in Q, W, and E at one point, because I accidentally leveled Q while not being sure if I needed to max E or not)... should I just try to passively farm and outscale him? With Q and E the fling was generally pretty avoidable, but using them as escapes means that if I ever try to cs while they're on cooldown I can't trade at all.
idunno about riven specifically, but in like 99% of voli's good matchups, he just barely kinda hangs on until wriggles, then trashes shit, in an irelia kind of way. That might change with the upcoming wriggles nerfs tho...
i dunno how easy it is to just passively farm vs voli if you tho, his speed + fling + slow combo makes it so that if he want's to engage on you, he probably can.
Last time I was in the Voli vs Riven matchup, I might as well have had his pelt as a carpet. Left lane 6/0/0 up 70ish cs. Obviously diving somebody with a flip at their turret is dumb. Ignite before his passive goes off.
Really excited for the BT change. Curious about how this effects GA timing. Interested in how effective MoM will be when used against magic heavy comps. E + MoM = mega low hp shield huehuehue
On March 16 2012 16:48 iCanada wrote: How does Riven lane vs Udyr?
zzzz
That game just felt so unfair. I beat him level 1, then I just get out damaged so hard by like level 3. I couldn't have been outplayed that incredibly hard I don't think... he just killed me so easily and I couldn't put any damage out on him. By the time we both had wriggles it was even but after that it was just all Udyr all the time.
That was painful, I don't like losing lane qq.
i take w first and just annoy him, when u get to 3 i think u have to chip him down everytime w come off cd with a w auto q auto combo then back off proc 2nd q and hit him with the 3rd q proc, if he tries to engage just e away and spam laught. dont go wriggles, two dorans is much better. if hes bad he will try to engage you and just waste mana and miss creeps. u cant fight him head to head in auto attacks even when ahead, u need to abuse the skills and rivens mobility. thats my take on the matchup but i dont have much experience vs udyr.
On March 16 2012 16:48 iCanada wrote: How does Riven lane vs Udyr?
zzzz
That game just felt so unfair. I beat him level 1, then I just get out damaged so hard by like level 3. I couldn't have been outplayed that incredibly hard I don't think... he just killed me so easily and I couldn't put any damage out on him. By the time we both had wriggles it was even but after that it was just all Udyr all the time.
That was painful, I don't like losing lane qq.
i take w first and just annoy him, when u get to 3 i think u have to chip him down everytime w come off cd with a w auto q auto combo then back off proc 2nd q and hit him with the 3rd q proc, if he tries to engage just e away and spam laught. dont go wriggles, two dorans is much better. if hes bad he will try to engage you and just waste mana and miss creeps. u cant fight him head to head in auto attacks even when ahead, u need to abuse the skills and rivens mobility. thats my take on the matchup but i dont have much experience vs udyr.
Really? I dunno... I think the extra sutain on wriggles in kind of really important. Udyr has much higher innate sustain, and if he gets wriggles then he just an unmovable brick. I dunno, unless you get to a point where you have double dorans and he doesn't have Wriggles yet you could force him to stay for XP/Free farm.
Rivens w range is higher than udyrs attack, when your w is up, be as aggressive as you want, saving your w for his engage. When w is on cd, play passively. It's pretty straightforward, you don't have to kill him to win the lane, but you definitely are able to with ganks
On March 18 2012 07:11 iCanada wrote: Really? I dunno... I think the extra sutain on wriggles in kind of really important. Udyr has much higher innate sustain, and if he gets wriggles then he just an unmovable brick. I dunno, unless you get to a point where you have double dorans and he doesn't have Wriggles yet you could force him to stay for XP/Free farm.
the bulk of lanedyrs damage is magic and u really should not eat tiger procs in lane. dorans make u much more tankier than wriggles vs udyr and potential ganks. sustain should not be a problem.
Riven vs Udyr is like Riven vs Garen. You just want to stay in lane and use the w to stop him from getting in on you. You're not going to win 1v1s so just try to harass a bit, and try to get him to spend his mana. Disengage him when he activates Tiger. Once he has used all his pots and is at 2/3rds you can go all-in on him with ultimate and ignite, but once he gets wriggles its a farm fest until junglers get involved.
So how do you guys like the new item on Riven? I've been playing against a lot of AP tops lately, especially Kennen, WW, Rumble, and I've grown extremely fond of it. Generally, I'll open boots 4 -> 2 Dorans -> NMM -> NMM -> Hexdrinker, getting Bloodthirster and Mercs and then, depending on the enemy teamcomp and who gets fed, Chain Vest and MoM or a straight GA into MoM.
The early MR is really good against those champions, the shield helps in clutch situations and has saved me numerous times against those Kennen/WW ults and later on, the combination of MoM and GA puts you up in the higher 160s. Combined with the amount of lifesteal you're going to sport, that's a crapload of EHP right there.
Also, since you'll probably end up getting focussed a lot, it has a really nice synergy with your ultimate, considering you'll probably not be at 100% HP when you end up using the execute move.
TL;DR: MoM pretty gud if the enemy runs double AP; amirite?
On March 16 2012 16:48 iCanada wrote: How does Riven lane vs Udyr?
zzzz
That game just felt so unfair. I beat him level 1, then I just get out damaged so hard by like level 3. I couldn't have been outplayed that incredibly hard I don't think... he just killed me so easily and I couldn't put any damage out on him. By the time we both had wriggles it was even but after that it was just all Udyr all the time.
That was painful, I don't like losing lane qq.
goldfather8
If you have clairvoyance on your team and see that Udyr didn't start tiger than start dorans and beat him from level 1. If he starts tiger or you don't know what he is, then cloth 5 is your best bet. Farm passively versus tiger udyr until level 3 because at level 3 you can actually start harassing him and he won't be able to retaliate fast enough. At level 6 you gain the advantage heavily because you have your ultimate on him now. In an average Udyr lane I will finish off all his pots by level 7 and dive him around level 8 to 9.
goldfather8 is probably the best Riven player around, though Wikd may be better just because he's a more experienced and better general top laner.
So I have played excessive amounts of Riven during the last couple of days (goldfather8's guide on solomid stronk) and I think she's becoming one of my go-to champs. It's just sooooo nice being able to practice her in blind pick and get a numerous amount of different lanes and win them all.
On March 24 2012 17:49 Shiv. wrote: So I have played excessive amounts of Riven during the last couple of days (goldfather8's guide on solomid stronk) and I think she's becoming one of my go-to champs. It's just sooooo nice being able to practice her in blind pick and get a numerous amount of different lanes and win them all.
that guide is pure gold, esp the details in lane matchups help so much, one of the best you can find on solomid. dyrus has also been playing a lot of riven on stream, saint is junglin with her on the korean server right now.
On March 25 2012 03:05 arb wrote: How exactly is saint doing jungle riven now?
not sure how saint does it 100%, but 21/9/0 starting q then w wraiths red gonk pretty standard. i personally love starting with dorans blade if i can get a good pull on red (otherwise boots 3), a lvl 2 gank on mid or top with rb you have crazy power. riven is a strong ganker and u should try to focus on it, be sure to tax the lane hard every time you pull off a successful one (many people bitch about it but riven scales so well its a sin when u dont do it). if im doing decent i get 2/3 dorans into bloodthirster ga, riven starts out kinda slow with clearing the camps but later on wraiths simply explode.
invading the enemy red and stealing it is also a good option as your lvl 1 is quite strong.
The last few times I've seen it he's been mostly opening with dblade, but sometimes with boots pots He gets like 2-3 dblades then gets phage/bloodthirster. The recent games I've seen didn't go further than that, so idk how he would continue on building.
On March 24 2012 17:49 Shiv. wrote: So I have played excessive amounts of Riven during the last couple of days (goldfather8's guide on solomid stronk) and I think she's becoming one of my go-to champs. It's just sooooo nice being able to practice her in blind pick and get a numerous amount of different lanes and win them all.
that guide is pure gold, esp the details in lane matchups help so much, one of the best you can find on solomid. dyrus has also been playing a lot of riven on stream, saint is junglin with her on the korean server right now.
I can't stress enough HOW good that guide is. I have yet to read a better one for ANY champ, and I'd like to think I have read a lot, lot of guides. It just answers pretty much every question one can have about Riven.
One thing I have realized that made me think a little was the lack of Wriggle's. I really like it against most AD lanes. I'm guessing the 1600 is just more than he'd like to spend before getting a BT, but that's the best thing I can think off right now. Maybe the armor of Tabi and the lifesteal of Vamp and 2-3 Dorans offers enough survivability to justify not getting it, plus her power curve makes a ridiculous jump once she gets her BF. Mhm, now that I think more about it, that actually makes a lot of sense. Anyway, opinions?
Also, all props to Dyrus, I like the dude and all, but his Riven is horrible, at least every time I've seen it. Heal/Ignite, always QQQ never AA, IDK. Don't like it.
One thing I have realized that made me think a little was the lack of Wriggle's. I really like it against most AD lanes. I'm guessing the 1600 is just more than he'd like to spend before getting a BT, but that's the best thing I can think off right now. Maybe the armor of Tabi and the lifesteal of Vamp and 2-3 Dorans offers enough survivability to justify not getting it, plus her power curve makes a ridiculous jump once she gets her BF. Mhm, now that I think more about it, that actually makes a lot of sense. Anyway, opinions?
dorans are the most cost effective items u can get early on. wriggles is for pussies and old men that want to afk farm, if u have balls of steel and want to make big plays and go for the gold u take dorans. the tabi 2-3 dorans combo is simply superior compared to wriggles for ad casters like riven.
Shiv. wrote: Also, all props to Dyrus, I like the dude and all, but his Riven is horrible, at least every time I've seen it. Heal/Ignite, always QQQ never AA, IDK. Don't like it.
this heal/ignite fad is something NA specific where dyrus mostly goofs off now, seems like hes tryharding more on EU. at least thats the vibe i get from watching him. and hey he can make it work on 2.2k elo, he might not be the authority on riven play but he makes is work well.
this heal/ignite fad is something NA specific where dyrus mostly goofs off now, seems like hes tryharding more on EU. at least thats the vibe i get from watching him. and hey he can make it work on 2.2k elo, he might not be the authority on riven play but he makes is work well.
Yeah, probably. Again, who am I to judge a guy who is infinitely better at this game than I am. I just saw 3 or 4 games where he played Riven and according to the goldfather8 guide and my own experience he misplayed his lane pretty much every time. I guess I should not have commented on him being horrible on Riven based on a very limited amount of games.
I wonder why Riven isn't played more to be honest. No Mana Champion + Unique Kit makes for a wonderful combo, and I think she's pretty strong. Maybe a bit too strong.
On March 28 2012 16:48 Gahlo wrote: 6300 points, no strong results(from what I've seen) competitively.
That's true, but then again, the only players who have seriously picked up Riven during important matches are either Europeans who play a bruiser style max Q build and Westrice back in MLG Providence, who maxes Shield last but still builds pure glass cannon. I'm not really sure wether that's the way she's supposed to be played.
I've seen Wickd try both approaches, so I can't comment on which one he likes better or thinks is stronger. But I really think I haven't seen a pro use the build I consider the best (Navi/Goldfather approach, BT into GA, max E 2nd.).
I agree, I've had strong results with it against double AP and Karthus.
Seeing the Euros play her bruiserish was painful. I never want to look at how a pro builds and think "you're doing it wrong" like I did then. I played Westrice style for a while. It's pretty hit or miss depending on how your opponent responds and is harder to get out of ganks with.
On March 28 2012 15:54 Kouda wrote: I wonder why Riven isn't played more to be honest. No Mana Champion + Unique Kit makes for a wonderful combo, and I think she's pretty strong. Maybe a bit too strong.
I think one of the reasons is that she doesn't work as well in random team-compositions compared to, e.g. an Irelia (pre-nerf dunno how good she's now). I have it often that I ask in SoloQ that I want to go a rather glassy Riven, and ask the jungler to pick/go tanky. People don't understand that (at my elo I often get flamed for not going atmog/tanky etc.) so they think Riven is a bad pick.
Irelia (to stay with the example) can work pretty much with every team, Riven is best when the jungler does go tanky and the rest of the team ain't too squishy, IMHO that's one of the points holding her back in SoloQ, and that's what decides popularity.
(Can't help but feel good about it though, I love playing her would be a shame if she became a top-ban/pick or get nerfed..)
On March 25 2012 03:05 arb wrote: How exactly is saint doing jungle riven now?
I've seen him starting boots, dorans, or vamp scepter. He seems to run lifesteal quints, or so I've heard him talking about. He goes 2-3 dorans into BT, pretty standard, but then he goes either phage -> GA or atmallet. I personally like getting a LW as fast as possible for the TONS OF DAMAGE or a GA earlier if I'm getting focused badly but SV tends to like being a lot more beefy unless he's ridiculously far ahead. Sometimes he gets phage before BF sword if he doesn't feel like saving for it.
When I jungle riven I always got dblade start with wriggles-->hexdrinker-->phage-->brutalizer-->atmas or GA type builds and done really well. Might skip wriggles now since its not as good and skip phage and get malmortius instead. Problem with phage is riven really doesn't need the slow because her E and Q with cdr from brutalizer are great for chasing.
I didn't run lifesteal quints, rivens passive scales too well.
On March 28 2012 20:40 Gahlo wrote: I agree, I've had strong results with it against double AP and Karthus.
Seeing the Euros play her bruiserish was painful. I never want to look at how a pro builds and think "you're doing it wrong" like I did then. I played Westrice style for a while. It's pretty hit or miss depending on how your opponent responds and is harder to get out of ganks with.
People built renekton bruiserish and it was equally bad for the same reasons but nobody cried about that. Don't know why everyone is so elitist about navis build. Sure BT GA is great but you can't say that only 1 defensive item on riven is always the way to go in competitive play.
Wickds going like 1-2 dorans BT+LW into items like Atmas, mallet, warmogs, malmortius which is pretty damn squishy. (But not 2x BT GA IE LW squishy)
On March 29 2012 01:25 Slayer91 wrote: When I jungle riven I always got dblade start with wriggles-->hexdrinker-->phage-->brutalizer-->atmas or GA type builds and done really well. Might skip wriggles now since its not as good and skip phage and get malmortius instead. Problem with phage is riven really doesn't need the slow because her E and Q with cdr from brutalizer are great for chasing.
I didn't run lifesteal quints, rivens passive scales too well.
On March 28 2012 20:40 Gahlo wrote: I agree, I've had strong results with it against double AP and Karthus.
Seeing the Euros play her bruiserish was painful. I never want to look at how a pro builds and think "you're doing it wrong" like I did then. I played Westrice style for a while. It's pretty hit or miss depending on how your opponent responds and is harder to get out of ganks with.
People built renekton bruiserish and it was equally bad for the same reasons but nobody cried about that. Don't know why everyone is so elitist about navis build. Sure BT GA is great but you can't say that only 1 defensive item on riven is always the way to go in competitive play.
Wickds going like 1-2 dorans BT+LW into items like Atmas, mallet, warmogs, malmortius which is pretty damn squishy. (But not 2x BT GA IE LW squishy)
For me, anything after BT/GA is situational anyway. Nothing stops me from picking up MoM, or any of the Fratmogs pieces. I haven't strictly followed Navi's build in a while. Multiple times in this thread where I've thrown around different ideas, purely to find out what can work.
Competitive sample size is too small. I have to go by personal experience, testimonials, and what I see in scrims. From what I have seen, heard, and done, BT/GA has worked out the best.
I'm sorry if I came across wrong, but my original reply was in agreement with you mentioning how strongly Riven's passive scales and skipping things like wriggle and phage. =|
Granted I also only lane with Riven anymore, so that changes things too. >.>
Soo, I read Goldfather8's guide, and I've been doing fine against GP, Trynd, Talon.
But Malphite just laughed at me in lane. The guide says it's an easy lane, very killable as long as Malphite has <130 armor, but I never had a chance -_-
How do you win a lane against Malphite? He opened regrowth pot. He didn't even try to harrass me unless I went for CS, and then he'd always outdamage my shield. I'd get him lower than he got me, but then I had to back (AS debuff), and he'd regenerate faster than I did.
What did I do wrong?
(Since he didn't apply the AS debuff until I was actually attacking him, I couldn't really dodge it except for doing E (dash in) -> W -> QQQ (dash away) without autoattacks; and that combo was not really enough to get significant damage past his shield. And then my cooldowns were all used up, and he'd keep last hitting while I'd have to wait away from creeps.)
On March 24 2012 17:49 Shiv. wrote: So I have played excessive amounts of Riven during the last couple of days (goldfather8's guide on solomid stronk) and I think she's becoming one of my go-to champs. It's just sooooo nice being able to practice her in blind pick and get a numerous amount of different lanes and win them all.
that guide is pure gold, esp the details in lane matchups help so much, one of the best you can find on solomid. dyrus has also been playing a lot of riven on stream, saint is junglin with her on the korean server right now.
I can't stress enough HOW good that guide is. I have yet to read a better one for ANY champ, and I'd like to think I have read a lot, lot of guides. It just answers pretty much every question one can have about Riven.
One thing I have realized that made me think a little was the lack of Wriggle's. I really like it against most AD lanes. I'm guessing the 1600 is just more than he'd like to spend before getting a BT, but that's the best thing I can think off right now. Maybe the armor of Tabi and the lifesteal of Vamp and 2-3 Dorans offers enough survivability to justify not getting it, plus her power curve makes a ridiculous jump once she gets her BF. Mhm, now that I think more about it, that actually makes a lot of sense. Anyway, opinions?
Also, all props to Dyrus, I like the dude and all, but his Riven is horrible, at least every time I've seen it. Heal/Ignite, always QQQ never AA, IDK. Don't like it.
You should read that guide again. He says ALWAYS build bf before vamp scepter. The amount you pay for a Wriggle's is like an entire BF sword. Riven should be coming out of the gate strong, and only get stronger as you stack AD. This is why the early BF sword is important. You can start cloth 5 pot, and use the cloth in either Tabi or GA. You don't have to turn it into a wriggle's.
I feel the new hexdrinker item is viable on Riven, but I'm not entirely positive how to fit it in with the doran's stack, bt. ga build. I think maybe getting a Pick Ax instead of a dblade will give you more damage, but less sustain/health. Good if already winning the lane hard, and if you're behind you just get the Hexdrinker, right? I'm just theory crafting, the only AP champs I played against yesterday was an Akali who just fed, and became a worthless squishy late game, and a LeBlanc I just out cs'd and out scaled into the mid game. I think I sold a dblade for a pick ax after GA that game vs Leblanc to go for a maul, but the game was already pretty much decided at that point. When should you be picking up the new item so it can have a major impact on the outcome of the game?
On March 30 2012 02:19 bmn wrote: Soo, I read Goldfather8's guide, and I've been doing fine against GP, Trynd, Talon.
But Malphite just laughed at me in lane. The guide says it's an easy lane, very killable as long as Malphite has <130 armor, but I never had a chance -_-
How do you win a lane against Malphite? He opened regrowth pot. He didn't even try to harrass me unless I went for CS, and then he'd always outdamage my shield. I'd get him lower than he got me, but then I had to back (AS debuff), and he'd regenerate faster than I did.
What did I do wrong?
(Since he didn't apply the AS debuff until I was actually attacking him, I couldn't really dodge it except for doing E (dash in) -> W -> QQQ (dash away) without autoattacks; and that combo was not really enough to get significant damage past his shield. And then my cooldowns were all used up, and he'd keep last hitting while I'd have to wait away from creeps.)
Did you open dblade? If you have potions you should be able to run him OOM by shielding his harass, and harassing back. If you have dblade you need to play the lane very aggressively, auto attacking the creeps to hit two faster and then unload on him with w's, q's, and autos. After auto attacking you should cancel that animation and shit so you can stick on him and keep hitting with q's and autos.
On March 30 2012 03:08 Sabin010 wrote: Did you open dblade? If you have potions you should be able to run him OOM by shielding his harass, and harassing back. If you have dblade you need to play the lane very aggressively, auto attacking the creeps to hit two faster and then unload on him with w's, q's, and autos. After auto attacking you should cancel that animation and shit so you can stick on him and keep hitting with q's and autos.
No, I opened cloth/poth and shield as suggested by goldfather8's guide (it seemed sensible).
He didn't run OOM because he was very passive; he didn't harrass unless I did, and while my harrass did more damage, his shield+regrowth meant that I never got him low even while I was chugging away my potions. I had particular trouble with implementing the guide's "Don't fight when his AS debuff is on you" advice. After E->W he'd apply the debuff; if I wanted to get away without taking damage I had to use Q to dash away, and he'd keep CSing.
He wasn't denying me anything, but I wasn't able to kill him, deny CS, or even get him low without running low myself (he ran exhaust/ignite, so I didn't want to fight when low). The guide suggested that I should be able to kill him if I play it right.
Once he had more items he was able to start zoning me because his pokes got too annoying and I still didn't do enough damage (and didn't have the sustain he did).
I wouldn't be using the shield as a gap closer in this lane. You basically want to save that for getting out when the debuff is on you or when he uses his ad active. I would have been auto attacking the lane to try to get level 2 first and moving into range to get an auto attack before using any abilities, trusting reaction times will be good enough to shield and back out the first sign of danger or shield in for a more comited harass.
If you prefer passive play you could have opted to let him push the lane, and get the jungler up there for a gank, he's running exhaust and ignite so his only real escape is the ms buff, and ultimate. I've only played that match up a few times though, so I wouldn't consider my self an expert on the subject.
On March 30 2012 03:08 Sabin010 wrote: Did you open dblade? If you have potions you should be able to run him OOM by shielding his harass, and harassing back. If you have dblade you need to play the lane very aggressively, auto attacking the creeps to hit two faster and then unload on him with w's, q's, and autos. After auto attacking you should cancel that animation and shit so you can stick on him and keep hitting with q's and autos.
No, I opened cloth/poth and shield as suggested by goldfather8's guide (it seemed sensible).
He didn't run OOM because he was very passive; he didn't harrass unless I did, and while my harrass did more damage, his shield+regrowth meant that I never got him low even while I was chugging away my potions. I had particular trouble with implementing the guide's "Don't fight when his AS debuff is on you" advice. After E->W he'd apply the debuff; if I wanted to get away without taking damage I had to use Q to dash away, and he'd keep CSing.
He wasn't denying me anything, but I wasn't able to kill him, deny CS, or even get him low without running low myself (he ran exhaust/ignite, so I didn't want to fight when low). The guide suggested that I should be able to kill him if I play it right.
Once he had more items he was able to start zoning me because his pokes got too annoying and I still didn't do enough damage (and didn't have the sustain he did).
First of all I would rather go boots+3 pots vs someone that has as little harras as Malphite.
second, you should do a ton of damage to anyone once your q-spell is lvl two. It is important to get close, q - hit q - hit q - hit this way you get a ton more damage dealt because of your passive, afterwards you can stun and get another hit in.
Against way weaker opponents I start the damage trades earlier, I skill all three skills at lvl 3 to get a gap closer (shield) do a ton of damage (q-hit) and stun for two extra hits. If you do this and have a few more creeps on your side than he does you should force him back relatively early, then you push the lane into the tower asap and go b as well. You return with a dblade and pots/cloth armor and should be half a lvl ahead+more gold.
Do that a couple of times and he doesn't stand a chance.+
Top lane is about outfarming him using the creeps to your advantage, once he gets impatiant because you outplay him like that you will find openings to kill him.
I hope this will help you a little.
Oh, if he runs exhaust+ignite ask for ganks and kill him three times in a row. He should not be allowed to be on top lane without flash or ghost. Period.
On March 30 2012 07:17 sylverfyre wrote: Wait, are you actually recommending to get more than 1 point of Q early game as riven? Since when is that not a retarded idea?
Ive heard wickd and the europeans prefer q maxing over w maxing.
W max used to give more dps at all levels i believe? but after the nerf Q does instead without massive AD to make full use of the CDR on levelling w Q max is strong for the damage in lane if nothing else, but as mentioned it pushes very hard
You have to note that people that max Q first like Wickd builds Riven doing stuff like phage first because he's not making much use out of Riven's W and E which gives her a lot of survivability. Since they're maxing Q for the early damage that comes from the base damage, they build survivability through their items instead, it seems.
Ive been kicking ass as Riven top lane, both in normal and ranked
ive been doing R>Q>E>W
Seems to work out really well for me.
Riven can push the lane depending on the enemies because she has a lot of escapes. Just gotta know when the right time is to do things and dont use your escapes all at once
On March 30 2012 03:08 Sabin010 wrote: Did you open dblade? If you have potions you should be able to run him OOM by shielding his harass, and harassing back. If you have dblade you need to play the lane very aggressively, auto attacking the creeps to hit two faster and then unload on him with w's, q's, and autos. After auto attacking you should cancel that animation and shit so you can stick on him and keep hitting with q's and autos.
No, I opened cloth/poth and shield as suggested by goldfather8's guide (it seemed sensible).
He didn't run OOM because he was very passive; he didn't harrass unless I did, and while my harrass did more damage, his shield+regrowth meant that I never got him low even while I was chugging away my potions. I had particular trouble with implementing the guide's "Don't fight when his AS debuff is on you" advice. After E->W he'd apply the debuff; if I wanted to get away without taking damage I had to use Q to dash away, and he'd keep CSing.
He wasn't denying me anything, but I wasn't able to kill him, deny CS, or even get him low without running low myself (he ran exhaust/ignite, so I didn't want to fight when low). The guide suggested that I should be able to kill him if I play it right.
Once he had more items he was able to start zoning me because his pokes got too annoying and I still didn't do enough damage (and didn't have the sustain he did).
First of all I would rather go boots+3 pots vs someone that has as little harras as Malphite.
second, you should do a ton of damage to anyone once your q-spell is lvl two. It is important to get close, q - hit q - hit q - hit this way you get a ton more damage dealt because of your passive, afterwards you can stun and get another hit in.
Against way weaker opponents I start the damage trades earlier, I skill all three skills at lvl 3 to get a gap closer (shield) do a ton of damage (q-hit) and stun for two extra hits. If you do this and have a few more creeps on your side than he does you should force him back relatively early, then you push the lane into the tower asap and go b as well. You return with a dblade and pots/cloth armor and should be half a lvl ahead+more gold.
Do that a couple of times and he doesn't stand a chance.+
Top lane is about outfarming him using the creeps to your advantage, once he gets impatiant because you outplay him like that you will find openings to kill him.
I hope this will help you a little.
Oh, if he runs exhaust+ignite ask for ganks and kill him three times in a row. He should not be allowed to be on top lane without flash or ghost. Period.
For Riven, I use heal and ignite. Heal is clutch and saved me a ton of times and no one remembers about it.
On March 30 2012 12:50 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Does riven's passive damage bonus apply to crits? base 54 ad, crit will do 108 + passive 5, or 54+5 = 118?
Last I heard they were added on top of the crit after the fact. Not sure if that is correct though. Do feel crit would be weighted a bit more if they did.
The tooltip says it adds damage to each auto though so shouldn't it be crit damage + passive damage? It's now like caita passive which actually gives her increased % damage in theory. Has anyone tested it? :o
On March 30 2012 14:42 BlackPaladin wrote: The tooltip says it adds damage to each auto though so shouldn't it be crit damage + passive damage? It's now like caita passive which actually gives her increased % damage in theory. Has anyone tested it? :o
I don't have time to test, but I'm pretty sure crit applied afterwards.
I've hit like 1.3-1.4k crits before, which after damage reduction only possible if the 250% crit happen on top of the passive damage increase. I mean unless I had like Jana Shield on me or something...
No, Riven's passive is treated like a Sheen proc. It does not factor into Critical Strike chance. Although it's still very possible to hit 1000+ a swing with IE+Bloodthrister.
100% Positive. She'd be swinging for 1500 with IE+Bloodthrister if that was the case.
On March 30 2012 14:49 ManyCookies wrote: No, Riven's passive is treated like a Sheen proc. It does not factor into Critical Strike chance. Although it's still very possible to hit 1000+ a swing with IE+Bloodthrister.
On March 30 2012 09:14 koreasilver wrote: You have to note that people that max Q first like Wickd builds Riven doing stuff like phage first because he's not making much use out of Riven's W and E which gives her a lot of survivability. Since they're maxing Q for the early damage that comes from the base damage, they build survivability through their items instead, it seems.
Last probably 10 times that i have seen Wickd play Riven he has started with either BT, LW, or that new item. But prolly 8/10 it has been BT, zero times have i seen phage first.
Maybe he's changed the way he played. I never watch his stream. But during that recent tournament when Riven saw a lot of use, phage was one of the most common early items picked up by these Q maxing Rivens along with dblades and wriggles.
Ohm, i kinda did not finish my last message. I was supposed to add, that some time ago i remember him starting with Phage all the time, but it seems that he has seen the light.
He used to do frozen mallet builds a lot on riven when he was first beginning to play her a lot. Now he generally gets real AD items from what I've seen on his stream recently. Might just be him now trying that out though. Never know sometimes with wickd builds And wow my phone made my last post look like a clusterfuck with about 30 typos. :|
Do many people jungle Riven anymore? Usually a friend of mine plays only top so I jungle almost all the time now; rarely have huge success as Riven in jungle though. My build is generally Wriggles -> maybe Phage -> Bloodthirster. Any tips/comments?
On March 31 2012 06:44 Stormfell wrote: Do many people jungle Riven anymore? Usually a friend of mine plays only top so I jungle almost all the time now; rarely have huge success as Riven in jungle though. My build is generally Wriggles -> maybe Phage -> Bloodthirster. Any tips/comments?
Saint has been doing Lifesteal quints and masteries and starting with a Doran's blade or boots and pots depending. Ive had a good amount of success with it as well. Also, Wicked's Riven today in the All or Nothing tourney was very interesting. He went wriggle's, Merc Treads, Maw of Malmortius. then he built Spirit Visage. I am still very confused about the Spirit Visage, he wasn't running heal and he already had like 140 MR. Just seems like he could have gone for something armor/AD oriented and been more of a threat.
He still went 8/0/9 or something so its not a criticism, I just don't understand.
On April 01 2012 08:48 Leffrey wrote: Saint has been doing Lifesteal quints and masteries and starting with a Doran's blade or boots and pots depending. Ive had a good amount of success with it as well. Also, Wicked's Riven today in the All or Nothing tourney was very interesting. He went wriggle's, Merc Treads, Maw of Malmortius. then he built Spirit Visage. I am still very confused about the Spirit Visage, he wasn't running heal and he already had like 140 MR. Just seems like he could have gone for something armor/AD oriented and been more of a threat. He still went 8/0/9 or something so its not a criticism, I just don't understand.
Is it me or champions like Riven are ridiculously bad designed (keep in mind I'm new to LoL and mobas)? The moment I compare it to champions like Ashe it feels so OP (with Ashe if you are out of position the only escape you have is a 4 min CD Flash).
On April 01 2012 13:05 Celestia wrote: Is it me or champions like Riven are ridiculously bad designed (keep in mind I'm new to LoL and mobas)? The moment I compare it to champions like Ashe it feels so OP (with Ashe if you are out of position the only escape you have is a 4 min CD Flash).
That is because Ashe is an entirely different type of champion to begin with. Each champion has it's own role(s) to fulfill and unique skillset. Every champion has to played in a different way too. I really hope you are trolling because otherwise you seem to have a very, very poor understanding of the game.
On April 01 2012 13:05 Celestia wrote: Is it me or champions like Riven are ridiculously bad designed (keep in mind I'm new to LoL and mobas)? The moment I compare it to champions like Ashe it feels so OP (with Ashe if you are out of position the only escape you have is a 4 min CD Flash).
Ashe has the benefit of massive range compared to riven. In a straight up fight Riven will beat her, and is designed to do so. Over the course of a teamfight Ashe will do more damage and slow multiple targets and is amazing at cleanup and initiates. Ranged champions as a whole are supposed to be weak 1v1 but stronger with team support to keep them safe (this is why the current metagame involves a ranged ad bottom with a support to help zone hard engagement off the carry).
On April 01 2012 13:05 Celestia wrote: Is it me or champions like Riven are ridiculously bad designed (keep in mind I'm new to LoL and mobas)? The moment I compare it to champions like Ashe it feels so OP (with Ashe if you are out of position the only escape you have is a 4 min CD Flash).
Ashe and riven fulfill vastly different roles and it's perfectly okay Ashe has no escape - Riven doesn't have one of the best hard engages in the game, no range, no inherent slow, no CV.
That being said - yeah, as much as I like Riven, she's not a well designed champion. A 5s CD shield that repositions you and scales with AD? No resources? Pretty good.
On April 01 2012 08:48 Leffrey wrote: Saint has been doing Lifesteal quints and masteries and starting with a Doran's blade or boots and pots depending. Ive had a good amount of success with it as well. Also, Wicked's Riven today in the All or Nothing tourney was very interesting. He went wriggle's, Merc Treads, Maw of Malmortius. then he built Spirit Visage. I am still very confused about the Spirit Visage, he wasn't running heal and he already had like 140 MR. Just seems like he could have gone for something armor/AD oriented and been more of a threat.
He still went 8/0/9 or something so its not a criticism, I just don't understand.
Wickd builds Spirit Visage on everything.
Irelia? SV. Riven? SV. Renekton? SV. Shyvana? SV. Tryn? SV. WW? SV. GP? Sv...
Man, coming back from a long break and I can't play my main girl worth shit. So sad. Does Boots > Wriggles > BT/GA still work fine as core or are we doing tankier things like FMallet or Atmogs now?
On April 02 2012 02:38 Requizen wrote: Man, coming back from a long break and I can't play my main girl worth shit. So sad. Does Boots > Wriggles > BT/GA still work fine as core or are we doing tankier things like FMallet or Atmogs now?
You probably want to skip wriggles and buy a few Dorans instead against the vast majority of champions, but otherwise yeah BT/GA is still core.
Also if bunny Riven was real I would buy it instantly :S
It is real, as they haven't announced it or made a big deal about it, unlike 3D mode. As it's in the skin section already I'm guessing it's going to be officially released later this week.
Oh yeah, one more thing. How is Jungle Riven doing now? I remember her being good, sort of ok when I left, but not like, top tier jungle caliber. Those DBlade openers still working or what?
On April 02 2012 05:40 Requizen wrote: Oh yeah, one more thing. How is Jungle Riven doing now? I remember her being good, sort of ok when I left, but not like, top tier jungle caliber. Those DBlade openers still working or what?
Still good. Under the radar because of how strong top riven still is.
How exactly does one jungle riven? I've read the last few pages and opinions seem to differ. dorans/wriggles, phage or no phage, atmogs/bt+ga, boots first vs dorans etc. Any definite suggestions?
Well, it's hard to give anything definite because of how the jungle works, especially for a money dependent and scaling champ like Riven. You need a lot of money to get the lane-Riven style items, which you only get via jungle if you get a lot of ganks/counter jungling. Otherwise you might have to improvise with mid game items like Hexdrinker and Phage if you fall behind gold-wise, so there's no real hard-and-fast call on that. I used to have jungle games where I'd have a BT by like 25 minutes from ganks and more ganks, and others where I'll barely have a Wriggle's.
As far as build goes, you can start Bootsx3, Clothx5, or DBlade and have the same amount of success more or less. Hell, even Vamp Scepter openings can work, you just don't have any gank power.
I always started dorans and it seemed to work, boots another good option. You just build cheap AD cost effective items like wriggles/bruta/hexdrinker/atmas/GA. I don't like phage on riven, hp not her best stat and slow far from needed especially when you're getting the red buffs.
On April 02 2012 20:08 Lokrium wrote: How do you beat Renekton as Riven? Every time I go against him I get destroyed.
Superior trades. You have much shorter cd's on w and e than renekton. If you want to trade stay out of the creeps so he gets back the minimum possible hp from his q. You also want to try and fight when his fury is low, so he isn't dealing any free damage. Also your ult is on a way way lower cd. 70 down to 45 while renekton ult stays at 120. That's right, you can almost ult 3 times for his one at lvl 3 ult. You have all the tools to trade favorably, and that's all you have to do. Ult early if you want to force a fight, walk away once he uses his or finish him off, then you'll have 50 or more seconds to kill him with your next ult.
Hey I'm usually really passive I'n top lane as riven and just get my farm on (125 I'n 15 min thank you very much ^_^ I've been playing for like 2 months so I'm proud of this lol) is this the right way to go about it? I just hit lvl 30 and I finally got all my runes and I was wondering if I should be more aggressive?
On April 02 2012 19:03 Slayer91 wrote: I always started dorans and it seemed to work, boots another good option. You just build cheap AD cost effective items like wriggles/bruta/hexdrinker/atmas/GA. I don't like phage on riven, hp not her best stat and slow far from needed especially when you're getting the red buffs.
max Q>E>W.
Q max in jungle? I hadn't really thought of it, but now that I do, that probably makes for pretty fast clears.
I generally liked Phage just for FMallet if I'm not going pure AD BT/GA/LW/BT route, the health on top of your GA makes you a great bruiser. That said, I'd prefer the heavy AD build, but like I said, it's not always feasible in the jungle.
On April 02 2012 19:03 Slayer91 wrote: I always started dorans and it seemed to work, boots another good option. You just build cheap AD cost effective items like wriggles/bruta/hexdrinker/atmas/GA. I don't like phage on riven, hp not her best stat and slow far from needed especially when you're getting the red buffs.
max Q>E>W.
Q max in jungle? I hadn't really thought of it, but now that I do, that probably makes for pretty fast clears.
I generally liked Phage just for FMallet if I'm not going pure AD BT/GA/LW/BT route, the health on top of your GA makes you a great bruiser. That said, I'd prefer the heavy AD build, but like I said, it's not always feasible in the jungle.
Wraiths get instagibbed around level 4-5, it's pretty strong. I really don't like Mallet on Riven because it feels like I'm committing some sort of sick twisted sin if I'm not taking advantage of her ridiculous AD ratios. Her stun(s), mobility, and ranged execute should be enough to secure a kill on anyone who won't take a century to kill anyway (lee singah, udyr).
On April 02 2012 19:03 Slayer91 wrote: I always started dorans and it seemed to work, boots another good option. You just build cheap AD cost effective items like wriggles/bruta/hexdrinker/atmas/GA. I don't like phage on riven, hp not her best stat and slow far from needed especially when you're getting the red buffs.
max Q>E>W.
Q max in jungle? I hadn't really thought of it, but now that I do, that probably makes for pretty fast clears.
I generally liked Phage just for FMallet if I'm not going pure AD BT/GA/LW/BT route, the health on top of your GA makes you a great bruiser. That said, I'd prefer the heavy AD build, but like I said, it's not always feasible in the jungle.
Wraiths get instagibbed around level 4-5, it's pretty strong. I really don't like Mallet on Riven because it feels like I'm committing some sort of sick twisted sin if I'm not taking advantage of her ridiculous AD ratios. Her stun(s), mobility, and ranged execute should be enough to secure a kill on anyone who won't take a century to kill anyway (lee singah, udyr).
I never get Phage/Mallet without Atma, but then again I rarely get them in the first place. I know I brought it up, but they're highly situational, and I generally only get them when there's no bulk on the team and I'm expected to be more beefy. Usually, on a balanced team with a more traditional bruiser, straight AD is the best 100% of the time.
On April 02 2012 21:46 MindBreaker wrote: Hey I'm usually really passive I'n top lane as riven and just get my farm on (125 I'n 15 min thank you very much ^_^ I've been playing for like 2 months so I'm proud of this lol) is this the right way to go about it? I just hit lvl 30 and I finally got all my runes and I was wondering if I should be more aggressive?
generally, with non-casters like riven and gp, you have ~3 levels (depending on the matchup) to crap on whoevers top. after that, they usually have the edge. with riven, its about winning trades. if you can go in with your q, land a w and a few autoattacks, then use your e to escape while absorbing their damage, you can bring them lower and lower. but for the most part, you scale better than everyone else, so passive farming works.
On April 02 2012 21:46 MindBreaker wrote: Hey I'm usually really passive I'n top lane as riven and just get my farm on (125 I'n 15 min thank you very much ^_^ I've been playing for like 2 months so I'm proud of this lol) is this the right way to go about it? I just hit lvl 30 and I finally got all my runes and I was wondering if I should be more aggressive?
generally, with non-casters like riven and gp, you have ~3 levels (depending on the matchup) to crap on whoevers top. after that, they usually have the edge. with riven, its about winning trades. if you can go in with your q, land a w and a few autoattacks, then use your e to escape while absorbing their damage, you can bring them lower and lower. but for the most part, you scale better than everyone else, so passive farming works.
Excuse me, what? In a lot (I'd almost say the majority) of matchups, GP comes to mind, you don't start getting aggressive until level 3. Same with Nida, and against Udyr, the time you gain the advantage should usually be around lvl 6 because well, you actually have an ultimate.
Yeah - passive farming works. It's far away from playing Riven optimally, though. If you have struggle knowing when to be aggressive, I suggest making this your bible.
Bleh, had a crap game against a Trynd. I let him sit at full rage and freefarmed against one another, full on derp mode on my part. Once I actually started dueling him, he wasn't really a problem I found.
On April 02 2012 21:46 MindBreaker wrote: Hey I'm usually really passive I'n top lane as riven and just get my farm on (125 I'n 15 min thank you very much ^_^ I've been playing for like 2 months so I'm proud of this lol) is this the right way to go about it? I just hit lvl 30 and I finally got all my runes and I was wondering if I should be more aggressive?
You should try to get a bit more agressive against some champions. It could net you in some nice early kills to snowball out of controll. Its not unusual for me to take a very early first blood with Riven and just laugh as your opponent sits under its tower waiting for the waves to get there. AA -> Q -> AA -> Q -> AA -> Q -> AA -> W -> AA -> Ignite will usually net you first blood at lvl 2-3. If he flashes you could even flash after in to secure the kill.
Now for the RIven discussion what do you guys think about going 2-3 Doran's blade and than just stacking BT's until you feel like you need a guardians angel. This is working great so far, but I'm still low elo.
Low elo here as well, just started doing ranked after a long hiatus, and bunny riven heavily influenced me in using her again ^_^
That said, worked my way from 1300 to 1416 this weekend using the riven bible -- having a lot of success in jungle as well as top. WW, olaf, and teemo are match ups i still have a lot trouble with, though
Now for the RIven discussion what do you guys think about going 2-3 Doran's blade and than just stacking BT's until you feel like you need a guardians angel. This is working great so far, but I'm still low elo
. you generally need the GA unless you're stupidly fed, but even then, a riven flash in with a GA is too good to pass on. stack BTs afterward if things are going well.
So I made a few games with Riven (first time top ever lol) and didn't do too bad (vs Irelia and GP so fucking hard tho). Why isn't she picked in tournaments ever? Minus the jungle Riven at IPL.
On April 09 2012 22:12 Celial wrote: So I made a few games with Riven (first time top ever lol) and didn't do too bad (vs Irelia and GP so fucking hard tho). Why isn't she picked in tournaments ever? Minus the jungle Riven at IPL.
I know wick'd uses riven to great success on top. But I agree, I would definitely want to see more of her.
Only top riven players i know of are westeice and wickd. Wickd only picked her up recently so hasn't played her in tournies yet. Westrice has played her a lot in touenies before but EG is kind of....not in good shape atm with the recent roster changes so hasn't been able to get much tourney screentime recently.
I've seen pro teams completely shut down Riven by sending their AD+support top. Riven simply cannot 1v2 well, especially compared to the popular top lanes played at a pro level today (heck, even olaf has a ranged ability).
Jungle Riven frustrates me. I just miss getting a full item build out of lane, and don't get my BT until way the fuck later on unless the enemy team is dumb and I get free kills. Bleh, usually end up with like 3 DBlades +Boots2 for way too long and nothing else.
On April 10 2012 03:58 Blasterion wrote: Redeemed Riven best skin
I'm highly enjoying my Bunny, thank you very much. Very, very cute >.<
On April 10 2012 04:59 Requizen wrote: Jungle Riven frustrates me. I just miss getting a full item build out of lane, and don't get my BT until way the fuck later on unless the enemy team is dumb and I get free kills. Bleh, usually end up with like 3 DBlades +Boots2 for way too long and nothing else.
On April 10 2012 03:58 Blasterion wrote: Redeemed Riven best skin
I'm highly enjoying my Bunny, thank you very much. Very, very cute >.<
I prefer smaller items out of the jungle, wriggles, phage, hex drinker unless I am getting super fed. It is way easier to have like 1.3-1.6K items that have a lot of utility attached to them than a Bloodthirster unless you are getting super fed. I usually do 1-2 dblades, mercs, wriggles and then phage or hex drinker depending on whether I want health or MR. I find this especially helps since you are generally behind a level possibly 2 in the jungle and the added defenses help.
On April 10 2012 08:00 Blasterion wrote: What about Frozen Mallet, should I get it before or after BT?
After, always after. Core Boots-BT-GA.
Unless you're talking about jungle items. In which case I'm as lost as you. I see a lot of junglers (across different champs) get an early Giant's Belt just for the health and tankiness early on, so it might not be unheard of on Riven, but per usual, her shield gives you all the health you generally need/want.
In the jungle it's not a bad idea to get Phage before BT and finish the Frozen Mallet after GA, the health and slow make ganks safer and generally more effective.
The argument i've actually heard for frozen mallet on riven is riven's strength is in mobility and catching people because of her 2 movement spells and low CD stun. However, she can't actually stick to someone well once catching them, so frozen mallet remedys this problem. Obviously it's not a first item rush sort of deal though since she more so wants AD and resists than all the health FM gives. What so all of you think of that argument? I actually kind of agree with it.
What do you guys think. 3 dorans into bt or 1/2 dorans into brutalizer into bt? I just dont know, relatively often I like to pick up brutalizer before BF even if I have the required gold for the bf.
On April 10 2012 22:02 BlackPaladin wrote: The argument i've actually heard for frozen mallet on riven is riven's strength is in mobility and catching people because of her 2 movement spells and low CD stun. However, she can't actually stick to someone well once catching them, so frozen mallet remedys this problem. Obviously it's not a first item rush sort of deal though since she more so wants AD and resists than all the health FM gives. What so all of you think of that argument? I actually kind of agree with it.
This is a stupid argument can be made for basically any melee but at the end of the day your 3x Q's chase people just fine and most of your damage comes from intitail burst with passive q w and r, you really don't need the slow and even if you did reed buff would suffice, much more effective than spending 3k gold on medicore stats. CC and slows will stop you in your tracks frozen mallet or no. A lot of people assume frozen mallet is a good item when you're getting ktied but getting kited is mostly a team effort on their side and means you're probably going in too far//too early.
Unless you mean catching people around the map, but anyone with frozen mallet and a gap closer can do that just as well. Most champions like olaf or irelia say use it better.
Mallet has it's uses post core if you're up against a slippery team. I'd only pick up Atmas against a heavily AD centric team, but rarely, read as: never yet, feel anything more than tabi and GA is needed. I've thought of substituting Phage for the Dblades with what seems to be an impending nerf, but it just isn't good enough to take early. I used to take an early burtalizer, but I never found the impact worth delaying BT and the overall cost is too close to BF sword to make me want to drop all my gold and start over.
I don't find sticking to people to be a problem you just have to cancel the auto attack animation and keep walking/hopping/dashing along on them (unless they're like Kass, but Kass is an asshole cause silence shuts down your passive, you can still kill him, you just can't 1v3 if he's there no matter how fed you are, same thing with Soraka). The only time I would go Frozen Mallet is if I'm gonna want atma's, and need the extra health.
I would say the top 3 champs I don't like seeing on the other team when playing Riven are Morgana, Garen, Soraka.
On April 10 2012 22:02 BlackPaladin wrote: The argument i've actually heard for frozen mallet on riven is riven's strength is in mobility and catching people because of her 2 movement spells and low CD stun. However, she can't actually stick to someone well once catching them, so frozen mallet remedys this problem. Obviously it's not a first item rush sort of deal though since she more so wants AD and resists than all the health FM gives. What so all of you think of that argument? I actually kind of agree with it.
I think the argument against that is that if you actually catch someone you just smash their head in with pure ad as opposed to wasting valuable time chasing them around. Or if you can't stick to them then it's more of a 'they blow all cc on me' problem which fmallet doesn't solve either.
Imho if you aren't dominating with your BT/GA core then neither fmallet nor more damage is going to help you, really.
Riven is really strong. I've been trying her out a lot and it's almost like whatever I build, as long as I have a BT and a GA I'm going to be doing tons and tons of damage.
What do you guys think of that new Maw item on Riven btw? What I've done in a few games is I go for the hexdrinker if it's some heavy AP character (maybe Kennen or Vlad, and especially if their mid likes to gank top a lot for some odd reason), but I don't know if that's the right decision to make.
Should I just be rushing BTs after boots and a few dorans or is the Hexdrinker (and then BT) okay in these circumstances?
I simply saw it on an argument for jungle riven who can't really afford a BF sword easily on jungle gold so builds cheaper shit (where phage can actually be a decent buy, and you don't finish the FM until way late)
Well if mid or some ap-based jungler are camping you then hexdrinker is fine. Usually though you'd want your big sword asap. I don't really find hexdrinker is necessary against vlad, and kennen is a fucking joke lane so I make sure he isn't in the game if I play riven.
Technically it's Dorans Blade, but semantics aside, dblades top are fine. Onviously you don't open it or you open yourself up to hetting harassed out. But 2-3 dblades -> BT or wriggles -> BT are the main 2 core builds i see on riven tops. Tbh i've never seen a riven with bruta.
Yeah, brutalizer really fell off because dorans is better in the early game and if you can buy brutalizer you would rather just wait a little and get a bf sword. Westrice used to get brutalizer pretty often when he first started playing Riven but he's pretty much dropped it completely, and I recall Navi saying the same thing for the same reasons.
On April 11 2012 23:10 noggnoskill wrote: I see it on like every other Riven, and it makes me cringe every time.
Perfectly fine in jungle, really too much of a mid game item top, at least that's my take on it. How do you guys handle Rumble? I've been really struggling to go up against one. Goldfather says he used to believe Rumble was a counter to Riven until he learned to beat him at levels 1-3, but if Rumble decides to play these levels defensively, I don't see myself going even with him in lane at all. Any tips?
Wait for him to use flame spitter to charge his heating, stay out of range, then jump in towards the end of it with shield, stun him and combo him with stun and triple q+auto and then run away before his next flamethrower. Your shield should respawn if he chases you although he should be running from you anyway since your ultimate and ignite is a damn big burst once you've chunked him.
Rumble is one that I'd consider a Hexdrinker at some point for if he's crapping on you. I usually build Maw after BT/GA anyway as long as there is one heavy AP hitter on their team. If I was against a good Rumble, I'd probably go BT - Hex - GA /or/ BT - 2 NMMs - GA/Hex as you want. He can just be annoying to lane against.
I only met rumble like 3 times ever but what I did every time is literally run at them at 1 with dorans and q and fuck him up hard (much like goldfather's guide says). Any time he even thinks of lasthitting you q him in the face. I think it's possible to 100-0 him at 2 or 3 with qw and ignite, too. This does require good warding though as you open yourself to ganks massively since you push pretty hard.
Was just thinking about this, would Sheen be good on Riven? Since the whole point of her is to mix in autos between each skill you would use a ton of procs. Obviously the stats would be a complete waste but it's 1255g for an extra 70-100 damage depending on level for each auto. Could turn it into a triforce later or just sell it.
IDK I haven't tried it but it seems at least semi worthwhile to test.
Edit: Actually just buying a BF sword gives you almost as much damage per auto and scales your skills as well so never mind.
On April 14 2012 14:54 Requizen wrote: But fuck Shyvana sucks to lane against. Not entirely sure what the hell I was supposed to do against her, I couldn't trade with her worth shit.
I think you're just supposed to E towards her when she auto-attacks a minions, then auto+W+auto and Q away. Repeat this harass a few times trying not to take any damage. Post-6 can be tricky. Also just back off immediately if she gets her E on you.
Anyone else get a bug that won't allow you to use a skill for a brief amount of time? It only happens on Riven and its way too common to be lag. Its mostly Q and R 2nd activation but I got it on every skill a few times.
On April 14 2012 14:54 Requizen wrote: But fuck Shyvana sucks to lane against. Not entirely sure what the hell I was supposed to do against her, I couldn't trade with her worth shit.
I think you're just supposed to E towards her when she auto-attacks a minions, then auto+W+auto and Q away. Repeat this harass a few times trying not to take any damage. Post-6 can be tricky. Also just back off immediately if she gets her E on you.
You arent gonna not take damage from burnout + auto attacks though, even with her stun
Then shyv pushes lane and you get free farm while she worries about ganks. Not to mention if you engage at the end of burn out you do more DMg and shyv cant Disengage.
On April 14 2012 14:54 Requizen wrote: But fuck Shyvana sucks to lane against. Not entirely sure what the hell I was supposed to do against her, I couldn't trade with her worth shit.
I think you're just supposed to E towards her when she auto-attacks a minions, then auto+W+auto and Q away. Repeat this harass a few times trying not to take any damage. Post-6 can be tricky. Also just back off immediately if she gets her E on you.
You arent gonna not take damage from burnout + auto attacks though, even with her stun
You don't stand there fighting her in her burnout. You just E to her, stun her auto once and back off. No need to stand and fight unless she's really low and you're going for the kill. You can dictate the engage since you have greater mobility.
I was gonna write a really long story about my Riven playstyle and whatnot. But what it pretty much boils down to is:
When jungling with Riven, and start with armor+pots, do you go for Wriggles Lantern or for Vampiric Scepter and then save up for Bloodthirster (with 1 or 2 Doran's inbetween perhaps).
so... Q-max riven absolutely stomps jarvan. i thought that lane would be a lot less one-sided does she have any bad matchups? i hadn't really played her again since the nerf but every time i see her she's just wrecking
On April 16 2012 16:10 magha wrote: I was gonna write a really long story about my Riven playstyle and whatnot. But what it pretty much boils down to is:
When jungling with Riven, and start with armor+pots, do you go for Wriggles Lantern or for Vampiric Scepter and then save up for Bloodthirster (with 1 or 2 Doran's inbetween perhaps).
When I jungle Riven I don't get Wriggles at all. Start boots+3->2xdorans->BFsword->BT. I don't bother with the Vamp because assuming you're maxing Q first (which imo you should) most of your clearing damage is on AoE spell damage. It not like you need the shorter W CD for trades or even a huge amount of your E's shield either.
Getting Wriggles without Dorans weakens your ganks, and getting it with Dorans delays your Bloodthirster a lot, in my opinion.
Just bought Riven, feels like I have no counters in Top Lane if I play really safe except for Tryhardamere. Even then, if I can zone him pre-6 I could crush him until LATE LATE game where he crits for 500+ and I just die from that.
On April 16 2012 16:10 magha wrote: I was gonna write a really long story about my Riven playstyle and whatnot. But what it pretty much boils down to is:
When jungling with Riven, and start with armor+pots, do you go for Wriggles Lantern or for Vampiric Scepter and then save up for Bloodthirster (with 1 or 2 Doran's inbetween perhaps).
When I jungle Riven I don't get Wriggles at all. Start boots+3->2xdorans->BFsword->BT. I don't bother with the Vamp because assuming you're maxing Q first (which imo you should) most of your clearing damage is on AoE spell damage. It not like you need the shorter W CD for trades or even a huge amount of your E's shield either.
Getting Wriggles without Dorans weakens your ganks, and getting it with Dorans delays your Bloodthirster a lot, in my opinion.
I always max my W out first actually, but I'll try with Q
I think Renekton beats Riven pretty hard. You can't dance around him like you can most champs because he has superior mobility and shares most of Rivens early game prowess.
Crocodile has better sustain, similar skillset, and is stronger early game. I guess Riven scales much better than him though so as long as you aren't too far behind you technically win.
Never played Riven vs Olaf as Riven, but everytime I've played a Riven as Olaf I stomp her. Doesn't really matter if you faster when he has better sustain, deals more damage, and has better range... although I'd assume it is pretty skill based. If Riven shields all of Olafs Reckless Swings I could see Riven wrecking him.
On April 16 2012 16:10 magha wrote: I was gonna write a really long story about my Riven playstyle and whatnot. But what it pretty much boils down to is:
When jungling with Riven, and start with armor+pots, do you go for Wriggles Lantern or for Vampiric Scepter and then save up for Bloodthirster (with 1 or 2 Doran's inbetween perhaps).
When I jungle Riven I don't get Wriggles at all. Start boots+3->2xdorans->BFsword->BT. I don't bother with the Vamp because assuming you're maxing Q first (which imo you should) most of your clearing damage is on AoE spell damage. It not like you need the shorter W CD for trades or even a huge amount of your E's shield either.
Getting Wriggles without Dorans weakens your ganks, and getting it with Dorans delays your Bloodthirster a lot, in my opinion.
I always max my W out first actually, but I'll try with Q
Q is way stronger in the jungle imo. Its like how Mundo would max Cleaver first in lane, but in Jungle is silly not to max Burning Agony. Same idea, clear speed on junglers these days is a big deal.
On April 16 2012 18:46 iCanada wrote: I think Renekton beats Riven pretty hard. You can't dance around him like you can most champs because he has superior mobility and shares most of Rivens early game prowess.
Crocodile has better sustain, similar skillset, and is stronger early game. I guess Riven scales much better than him though so as long as you aren't too far behind you technically win.
Never played Riven vs Olaf as Riven, but everytime I've played a Riven as Olaf I stomp her. Doesn't really matter if you faster when he has better sustain, deals more damage, and has better range... although I'd assume it is pretty skill based. If Riven shields all of Olafs Reckless Swings I could see Riven wrecking him.
On April 16 2012 16:10 magha wrote: I was gonna write a really long story about my Riven playstyle and whatnot. But what it pretty much boils down to is:
When jungling with Riven, and start with armor+pots, do you go for Wriggles Lantern or for Vampiric Scepter and then save up for Bloodthirster (with 1 or 2 Doran's inbetween perhaps).
When I jungle Riven I don't get Wriggles at all. Start boots+3->2xdorans->BFsword->BT. I don't bother with the Vamp because assuming you're maxing Q first (which imo you should) most of your clearing damage is on AoE spell damage. It not like you need the shorter W CD for trades or even a huge amount of your E's shield either.
Getting Wriggles without Dorans weakens your ganks, and getting it with Dorans delays your Bloodthirster a lot, in my opinion.
I always max my W out first actually, but I'll try with Q
Q is way stronger in the jungle imo. Its like how Mundo would max Cleaver first in lane, but in Jungle is silly not to max Burning Agony. Same idea, clear speed on junglers these days is a big deal.
Yes youre absolutely right, its just that I always leveled W first while laning, but Q for jungling is definitely better
On April 16 2012 17:25 gtrsrs wrote: so... Q-max riven absolutely stomps jarvan. i thought that lane would be a lot less one-sided does she have any bad matchups? i hadn't really played her again since the nerf but every time i see her she's just wrecking
I feel what really makes her strong is the shield. Most champions have to choose between survivability items or damage items, and Riven can just stack Dorans and BT's and she gains more scaling on the shield. Maybe if they made it scale off ap like Jarvan's/Lee Sin's shield it wouldn't be so much of a problem.
Westrice ran Riven at IPL4 and Tree Eskimo said he had success in the Match up with Mundo. When I play Riven, I play a lot of match ups very aggressively, pushing the lane early to level up a few creeps faster than the opponent and then going off on the guy while I got that one level advantage. I mean look at what a lvl 1 WW can do vs a level 2 Riven. He can't even go to auto attack cs with out taking a ton of damage. The thing that can be a problem with this style is early jungle ganks by champs with large gap closers, Shaco/Lee/Yi/etc. The trick is to combine early jungle ganks, and a champion that can stand toe to toe with her early, Garen, Renekton are ones I play, as I've never been Mundo.
Now I don't know if Mundo actually beats Riven because in the match Westrice did get caught at lvl 1, blew flash, gave first blood, and then got ganked early while flash was on cooldown.
On April 17 2012 22:33 Two_DoWn wrote: Ive been a fan of doing q-w-e for jungle. I literally 4 hit an ahri yesterday with q and ult up.
What runes and masteries do you run? I gave Riven a shot recently with a doran's blade start and 21/9/0 and found that I got absolutely wrecked by blue even with a good leash. I've seen lots of people stream riven jungle and kill wolves and blue taking almost 0 damage with dblade though, so I feel like I'm missing something.
I could do boots 3pot of course but if it's possible to full clear the jungle with just a dorans that seems ideal.
On April 16 2012 18:16 Pulselol wrote: Just bought Riven, feels like I have no counters in Top Lane if I play really safe except for Tryhardamere. Even then, if I can zone him pre-6 I could crush him until LATE LATE game where he crits for 500+ and I just die from that.
AD nid with armor runes trashes her. Teemo counters her too, and she has problems against Yorick and armor page rumble as well. Kennen will easily kill you at 6 if you're not super careful. I think there's more bad matchups but I can't think of them atm
On April 16 2012 18:16 Pulselol wrote: Just bought Riven, feels like I have no counters in Top Lane if I play really safe except for Tryhardamere. Even then, if I can zone him pre-6 I could crush him until LATE LATE game where he crits for 500+ and I just die from that.
AD nid with armor runes trashes her. Teemo counters her too, and she has problems against Yorick and armor page rumble as well. Kennen will easily kill you at 6 if you're not super careful. I think there's more bad matchups but I can't think of them atm
Disagree on Nid, Teemo is a tough matchup, disagree on Yorick heavily, Not seen enough Rumble personally.
Trundle, now there is a jerk I don't like seeing top.
Ad nid is not a counter neither is teemo. Teemo can be a bitch but he should never kill you and if he doesn't okay super safe he will die. Ad mid can dokay early but can never fight youvin lane. Kennen isn't a hard lane either. He has to push lane to harras and you ate way stronger at six. Yorick gets tooed on from level one My counter pick for riven is Olaf.
On April 16 2012 18:16 Pulselol wrote: Just bought Riven, feels like I have no counters in Top Lane if I play really safe except for Tryhardamere. Even then, if I can zone him pre-6 I could crush him until LATE LATE game where he crits for 500+ and I just die from that.
AD nid with armor runes trashes her. Teemo counters her too, and she has problems against Yorick and armor page rumble as well. Kennen will easily kill you at 6 if you're not super careful. I think there's more bad matchups but I can't think of them atm
Disagree on Nid, Teemo is a tough matchup, disagree on Yorick heavily, Not seen enough Rumble personally.
Trundle, now there is a jerk I don't like seeing top.
Yup, I 6-0 on Trundle, all of those times I just counterpicked Riven and laughed.
<3
I definitely understand why no one plays him, he really boring... That said his pillar the coolest skill in the game.
How do you manage laning against Urgot? I was put in a game against Urgot yesterday, I thought I was going against Teemo but went cloth + 5pots anyway just to be safe, and when Urgot showed up I could do absolutely NOTHING. Not even staying behind my creeps was safe, the moment I got grenaded I took massive damage, and from level 1 I had the disadvantage of being melee vs ranged, so I wasn't sure how to get an early advantage before he had his E + Q. Am I looking at this the wrong way? He started off with Meki Pendant and something else, I believe. It was just a nightmare...
Against riven's high mobility, urgit should never hit a grenade When he does, you have to trade with him instead of running away. Move toward him and stun and knock him around so he can't lock onto you. With meki opening, you'll do more damage than he will. Call for ganks, he has no escape or hard cc.
Alright, someone teach me to lane vs Panth. I can shield spears all day, but he just abuses his jump-stabby combo as soon as the shield is gone, then his passive blocks mine. It's completely fucking infuriating.
On April 24 2012 11:56 Requizen wrote: Alright, someone teach me to lane vs Panth. I can shield spears all day, but he just abuses his jump-stabby combo as soon as the shield is gone, then his passive blocks mine. It's completely fucking infuriating.
he has mana, you don't early game you should max shield, and go for lasthits only when shield cooldown is ready. shield the spear, now you have to play passive for ~6-9 seconds. it takes discipline. eventually he'll run out of mana while you'll never be out of mana! when he has only enough mana for 1 full combo, you can start being aggressive. it's an abusive/attrition way to play but it's very effective.
Hmm, everyone here seems to advocate fore pure damage riven w. GA. But I've been finding my build (I'll call it the super metabruiser build), quite effective. For jungle it's d-blade->boots->dblade->dblade->tier2 boots->phage->hexdrinker (if necessary)->BT->froz mallet->atma's->lw->w.e
For top, it's usually, boots->wrigs (or hex drinker, or dblade, depending on matchup->phage->wrigs (if you didn't get it earlier)-> frozmallet->atma's->lw.->maw's->luxury item.
I guess I just like building my riven pretty freaking tanky....
with the advent of hexdrinker its definitely much more viable than before i still think phage as an item on her is mediocre when you could buy a BF sword with similar money (or dorans blades or defensive item components if you need to buy these to stay relevant in lane) but i can understand wanting to build tanky. i always preferred being a legitimate threat lategame though, with this you will be strong midgame but your lategame will be weak without at least 1 other bruiser threat to harm their AD / AP as needed
Phage still strikes me as "eh". A couple DBlades can take it's place early game, and FMallet+Atma's isn't nearly as nice later on as another BT and a LW. I'd totally get it if you could buy that Dominion item that's a Phage + BFS, makes her OP as fuck on Dom.
I would say that in a game where you want to be overall more tanky, especially against high mobility APs or sustained AP damage (I would say 2 of Kennen/Ahri/Vlad/Ryze/Rumble/etc, or one of those and an AP jungle), building Hexdrinker and Phage AFTER your BT can be a solid choice, but even then the Phage part is questionable. I really don't think anything other than Dorans->BT can compete in lane though barring emergency resists to be able to survive, I find your midgame falls off horribly if you don't get the BT up fairly quickly.
Eh vs double AP I tend to go boots + 3 -> 2 dorans -> hexdrinker -> BT -> GA
Hexdrinker is strong enough vs Double AP that it works pretty well. And I fine that extra shield + your shield is often the difference in midgame fights. However if you are just farming then 3 dorans - > BT -> GA then Hex is prolly better
I like phage because it builds into Frozmallet. The slow is meh, because rivens ability to gap close is really powerful so chasing usually is a non issue. I just like the huge amount of HP it gives riven. Frozmallet + atma's gives around 60-70ad, 700 hp, and 45armor. It just feels so strong. Maybe it's because I like initiating fights w/ riven, that's probably why i feel tankyass riven feels so strong....
BT+ga is a much better combo than frozen atmas and atmas is pretty trash now. IF you need hp often you want maw of malmortius as well since mr shield+mr is prefect against bursty AP combos because of your spammable E which scales off your AD to counter lower amounts of sustained damage.
On May 09 2012 05:24 Slayer91 wrote: BT+ga is a much better combo than frozen atmas and atmas is pretty trash now. IF you need hp often you want maw of malmortius as well since mr shield+mr is prefect against bursty AP combos because of your spammable E which scales off your AD to counter lower amounts of sustained damage.
How is atma's trash now? It still offers A LOT of stats per gold than any other item if you have over 2000 health. The Maw point is moot, because it's a item for both pure AD riven build, and my bruiser build.
GA+BT Riven @ lvl 18 has 70.8 base armor, and 1962hp. GA offers 68 Armor, totaling 138.8 armor. Which is a 58.12% dmg reduction (from physical) BT offers 100AD (if stack'd), will offer an additional 100 hp to shield. (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2242, w/ effective hp of ~3875
FrozMallet+Atma's Frozmallet offer 700 health, totally health to 2662 Atma's offer 45 armor, totaling 115.8 armor. Which is 53.66% dmg reduction (from physical) 40AD (from Atma's) and 20AD, totaling to 60AD, additional 60hp to shield (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2902, w/ effective hp of ~5450
You can see the defensive difference against AD.
Now w/ GA you do run more MR, but w/ the gold difference it's only a 200-300 gold more for a negatron cloak.
On May 09 2012 05:24 Slayer91 wrote: BT+ga is a much better combo than frozen atmas and atmas is pretty trash now. IF you need hp often you want maw of malmortius as well since mr shield+mr is prefect against bursty AP combos because of your spammable E which scales off your AD to counter lower amounts of sustained damage.
How is atma's trash now? It still offers A LOT of stats per gold than any other item if you have over 2000 health. The Maw point is moot, because it's a item for both pure AD riven build, and my bruiser build.
GA+BT Riven @ lvl 18 has 70.8 base armor, and 1962hp. GA offers 68 Armor, totaling 138.8 armor. Which is a 58.12% dmg reduction (from physical) BT offers 100AD (if stack'd), will offer an additional 100 hp to shield. (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2242, w/ effective hp of ~3875
FrozMallet+Atma's Frozmallet offer 700 health, totally health to 2662 Atma's offer 45 armor, totaling 115.8 armor. Which is 53.66% dmg reduction (from physical) 40AD (from Atma's) and 20AD, totaling to 60AD, additional 60hp to shield (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2902, w/ effective hp of ~5450
You can see the defensive difference against AD.
Now w/ GA you do run more MR, but w/ the gold difference it's only a 200-300 gold more for a negatron cloak.
You're completely ignoring the lifesteal component on BT, and the ressurection effect on GA, which not only gives you an extra 500 or so? life, guarantees you get another shield on top of that, so another 300 or so on top of that. GA also provides a delay on death, meaning if you get focused your team has time to do more before you're targettable again, a bit like kayle ult.
Also it depends on the number of shields you get in a fight total, + the extra one from ressing after GA.
You also get almost a BF sword worth more of AD, so along with being equal or better defensively, you gain about 1500 more gold worth of stats, considering we're looking at a 5.5kish gold item combo that's pretty huge.
Also frozen mallet and atmas is only 100 gold cheaper I think? So you're losing at least a null magic of resists, and resists scales really well with lifesteal.
I don't think BT + GA is some kind of godly combo, but that frozen mallet atmas is bad and you should feel bad. (Or at least sub optimal)
edit: mallet 3250, atmas 2355, ga 2600, bt 3000 so they cost the same amount, but bt ga is way better in both 1v1 situations and teamfights. Yeah you can be like oh blah blah blah slow but the slow works on everybody, not that many people make that much use of it, certainly riven doesn't, she's largely burst based on teamfights because you dont constantly attack people with just autos or you get focused in teamfights you get your burst and jump with spells when they are up.
BT into GA is still king on Riven imo. The only exception is if it's double AP where then I really enjoy grabbing a Hex/Maw because the MR is great and the shield is awesome. Plus you get more AD when you're lower on health, which is great for Riven.
Vs Double AP: Boots, Dorans, Hex, tier2 boots, maw, bt, ga
Vs Everything else: boots, dorans, bf, tier2 boots, bt, ga
Yes, it would, but it's dead end if you don't go warmogs, better just not to get HP and instead get items like red pot, maw of malmortius, GA, maybe even a randuins or frozen heart if you really are scared of physical damage. I used to go warmogs atmas at some point on riven with stuff like BT and GA finished but atmas nerf is just makes it a meh item now better to buy LW.
On May 09 2012 05:24 Slayer91 wrote: BT+ga is a much better combo than frozen atmas and atmas is pretty trash now. IF you need hp often you want maw of malmortius as well since mr shield+mr is prefect against bursty AP combos because of your spammable E which scales off your AD to counter lower amounts of sustained damage.
How is atma's trash now? It still offers A LOT of stats per gold than any other item if you have over 2000 health. The Maw point is moot, because it's a item for both pure AD riven build, and my bruiser build.
GA+BT Riven @ lvl 18 has 70.8 base armor, and 1962hp. GA offers 68 Armor, totaling 138.8 armor. Which is a 58.12% dmg reduction (from physical) BT offers 100AD (if stack'd), will offer an additional 100 hp to shield. (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2242, w/ effective hp of ~3875
FrozMallet+Atma's Frozmallet offer 700 health, totally health to 2662 Atma's offer 45 armor, totaling 115.8 armor. Which is 53.66% dmg reduction (from physical) 40AD (from Atma's) and 20AD, totaling to 60AD, additional 60hp to shield (+180 base) Total health w/ shield @lvl 18 will be 2902, w/ effective hp of ~5450
You can see the defensive difference against AD.
Now w/ GA you do run more MR, but w/ the gold difference it's only a 200-300 gold more for a negatron cloak.
I would prefer to have the bonus AD BT/GA provides because of the high scaling on all those AOE moves, you're also forgetting to take into account how good life steal is, when you're in a commited fight. Being able to get a stronger shield off and life steal, then stun and life steal with the fact if you do die, you're going to res with that BT still stacked, and get a second chance for a stun and more life steal. Riven also has the benefit of not needing the slow to really stick to some one.
You can still get the warmogs/mallet atma's after GA, but getting that blood thirster fast will make your opponent have a hell of a time forcing you out of lane because of the sustain it provides, while Frozen Mallet will make you able to eat more damage, you're not really going to regenerate that damage with out something like warmog's. Going warmog's is just going to leave you with this huge weakness in your power curve until you get your Atma's that if you do have to roam and get involved in a team fight, you're going to wish you had the BT, and a few pieces to the GA.
I didn't get to finish my post (lecture ended), but what I was going to continue saying, was that I think the increased EHP more than justifies the usefulness in battle w/ Riven. Yes the life steal is nice on Riven, however is sorta negligible in battle, the amount of time she auto's is pretty low (especially in comparison to other AD's the run life steal).
in reference to the respawn on GA, not gunna lie around 90% of the time, I die right after respawning, it's pretty fucking rare that I escape after respawn.
On May 09 2012 06:20 wei2coolman wrote: I didn't get to finish my post (lecture ended), but what I was going to continue saying, was that I think the increased EHP more than justifies the usefulness in battle w/ Riven. Yes the life steal is nice on Riven, however is sorta negligible in battle, the amount of time she auto's is pretty low (especially in comparison to other AD's the run life steal).
in reference to the respawn on GA, not gunna lie around 90% of the time, I die right after respawning, it's pretty fucking rare that I escape after respawn.
If you get caught, sure, in any teamfight situation where its winnable GA will be much more useful.
Anyway, Mallet atmas is pretty darn poor EHP wise compared to the more popular items currently. You get 1 chain vest of armour and a giants belt+ruby of hp, so it's more like 2k gold worth of EHP, and 2k gold worth of damage, for 5.6k because you don't use the crit on atmas or the slow that much. You can get much better combos for your money, and honestly, you're just overrating hp a lot because the EHP numbers look great on paper but add in poke damage, external heals and shields, lifesteal especially sustaining on creeps in poke battles, drawn out fights, chases and split pushes, they all add up massively in favour of non hp, and EVEN STILL ga provides just as much hp in the respawn.
The weakness of GA is the 5 minute cooldown, dying instantly again is just something that shouldn't happen. For example you can go balls out in teamfights when you can't without it because you get res-->shield-->flash-->Q-q-q --> i'm out peace! if that really does happen.
jungle riven's become pretty popular lately it seems, or at least saint's been playing it a lot. what rune/mastery setup is best? i've been using ad reds and quints and 21/9/0
On May 09 2012 07:23 Xevious wrote: jungle riven's become pretty popular lately it seems, or at least saint's been playing it a lot. what rune/mastery setup is best? i've been using ad reds and quints and 21/9/0
^that's what I run. I don't really seeing how any other mastery setup being nearly as good.
On May 09 2012 04:59 wei2coolman wrote: I like phage because it builds into Frozmallet. The slow is meh, because rivens ability to gap close is really powerful so chasing usually is a non issue. I just like the huge amount of HP it gives riven. Frozmallet + atma's gives around 60-70ad, 700 hp, and 45armor. It just feels so strong. Maybe it's because I like initiating fights w/ riven, that's probably why i feel tankyass riven feels so strong....
Even if you're building "tankyass riven" it makes zero sense to build resist-centric bruisers with items that are so heavily focused on HP.
In this regard, Riven is exactly the same as Warwick or Udyr--and you pretty much shouldn't be building Giant's Belt-based items on those guys either. You can choose between buying damage or survivability, but that doesn't make primary HP items that are based on Giant's Belt good on them. Their survivability is heavily rooted in the availability of low-CD shields/heals, which scale much better with resists than with HP. HP scales heal/shield based survivability linearly, while resists scale asymptotically toward the point of infinite EHP. This is why Riven's primary defense stat choices are heavily resist-based like GA and QSS.
In all honesty I would consider Randuin's as a more sensible armor source than Atma's, because it synergizes with further resist stacking (which you want to do) while Atma's synergizes with buying HP (which you don't).
I was thinking about the randuins as a replacement for frozmallet and atma's, but phage really offers a super nice midgame w/ dorans. Still plenty of games from riven for me to go to find the perfect build for my playstyle. Also what are people's opinion on ghostblade as a replacement over lw?
Dislike it. Your abilities span the length of the AA timer, so the AS isn't very useful unless you're essentially slaping people with a pool-noodle no passive sword. The crit isn't super useful. If you're getting itbecause people are building armor(duh) then it's piercing less. In the end the only really worthwhile part is the CDR. =\
In the end, the money spent into phage/brutalizer is better off saved for a little bit to BF.
Though I have decided to be a jerk while snowballing in the jungle and pick them both up + Hexdrinker. =]
I think Mallet/Atmas is a trap on Riven because it follows a linear growth pattern where you never really feel "weak" during the game. (All the parts are relatively cheap, it's combining them where you get into the expenses.) You get a little AD, a little HP, some armor everything is growing equally.
Whereas BT GA Riven you feel "weaker" while you're sitting on gold waiting for that BF / Bloodthirster but her growth is just so exponential once you get it that I really think it's the only effective way to play her.
I loved Mallet / Atmas when she first came out but it just feels so much weaker.
Sometimes i tend to get just a phage, and just leave it as a phage until ultra-super-mega-late game. But yeah BT feels so stupidily good on her, i don't get how you would feel stronger, just because you have a larger health pool.
Last post in this thread was kind of old, and I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but lately I've had a ton of trouble playing Riven against Olaf and Irelia. I tend to go Wriggle, Tabi BT GA kind of build, and because I build high armor but fairly low life, they just true damage my pants off and I have a rough time. I don't usually build Phage fmallet because I don't feel like it's all that great on her, so I was wondering if there were any tips you guys had against these guys when going for the BT build.
On June 24 2012 16:21 MeteorRise wrote: Last post in this thread was kind of old, and I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but lately I've had a ton of trouble playing Riven against Olaf and Irelia. I tend to go Wriggle, Tabi BT GA kind of build, and because I build high armor but fairly low life, they just true damage my pants off and I have a rough time. I don't usually build Phage fmallet because I don't feel like it's all that great on her, so I was wondering if there were any tips you guys had against these guys when going for the BT build.
Playing against Olaf is essentially impossible since his E true damage will typically outscale the health you actually get from your E. If you level your skills to prefer damage (Q and W), you just melt under his true damage, but if you level up your E to survive, you have no kill potential. The lane will usually end up even or you just lose. You can just get double dorans --> phage to help against the true damage. If you play against an Irelia, it really depends on the other player's skill with Irelia. Typically Irelia will win since her E gives a really long stun that lets her disengage at will. Her Hiten Style lets her auto her health back up, so she will usually outsustain Riven. The matchup is just who can outplay the other.
On June 24 2012 16:21 MeteorRise wrote: Last post in this thread was kind of old, and I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but lately I've had a ton of trouble playing Riven against Olaf and Irelia. I tend to go Wriggle, Tabi BT GA kind of build, and because I build high armor but fairly low life, they just true damage my pants off and I have a rough time. I don't usually build Phage fmallet because I don't feel like it's all that great on her, so I was wondering if there were any tips you guys had against these guys when going for the BT build.
Well why would your rush armor in lane when the only guarantee'd damage he'll have on you is his true damage? Instead of trying to outscale defensively him with armor when most Olaf's skirmishing potential ignores armor is kinda silly, especially since as Riven you have 100% control on engages.
I'd start Cloth+5->Boots->DBladex2->BT->GA.
You should definitely max your shield first.
If he maxing true damage you should be able to outscale his true damage with your shield assuming you are maxing it first; realistically even if his E does more damage to your than yours shields you can come ahead in the trade. Also try not to fight him when his W is procc'd (ie stun him and disengage). Just force a skirmish everytime your shield is up, then back off before you take much more than your shield and wait for it to come up again.
His true damage actually hurts him a lot, and once you factor in Mana costs you have a pretty huge sustain advantage on Olaf.
A lot of guides are saying to go for a blood thirstier and so far it's worked out well but why go for a stacking item, isn't it risky? They only scale well if you're engaging in teamfights but you should only be dealing with top lane unless you're jungling and then it's a bit of a different story, but if you're 1v1 top solo you're in a situation where you're only going to be fighting that one person the whole game. Which seems like it reduces the chances to get stacks on it, and that you're missing out on half of the items potential. Wouldn't going for like a Bilgewater Cutlass and Brutalizer be better to go for? Since you get a heavy slow, and life steal earlier at the sacrifice of 10 damage, if you're just going to build a bilgewater.
Bloodthirster is 3000g for 60 damage 12 lifesteal
And its passive which grants lifesteal and damage for your kills after you get it. But this feels like its quite insignificant.
Brutalizer + Bilgewater is 3162g for 60 damage 15 lifesteal 15 armor pen 10% CRD
and 150 damage, 50% slow for 3 seconds
The only downfall is that if you build a bilgewater first you're going to lose out on 10 damage at the cost of gaining lifesteal and the 150 damage and 50% slow for 3 seconds which is on a CD of 60 seconds, allowing you to bully or escape your lane even better.
Anyone have any suggestions on why you should get a Bloodthrister or why not to get it? To me it just seems useless midgame because its passive isn't as good as a bilgewater + brutalizer and you'll have slots for them.
... Bloodthirster gains stacks from any type of kill. That includes minions, which you'll have plenty of if you and your lane opponent are still hanging around top for farm.
On July 22 2012 07:15 GARO wrote: ... Bloodthirster gains stacks from any type of kill. That includes minions, which you'll have plenty of if you and your lane opponent are still hanging around top for farm.
You have good ad ratio on your abilities -> BT You dont need hextech gunblade -> BT Brut builds into youmoo's, but you don't get much from AS since you scale with ad -> BT
It's essentially the same as pantheon. You're more of an ability user, rather than a straight up auto-attacker, so building raw AD is better.
On July 22 2012 06:54 D u o wrote: A lot of guides are saying to go for a blood thirstier and so far it's worked out well but why go for a stacking item, isn't it risky? They only scale well if you're engaging in teamfights but you should only be dealing with top lane unless you're jungling and then it's a bit of a different story, but if you're 1v1 top solo you're in a situation where you're only going to be fighting that one person the whole game. Which seems like it reduces the chances to get stacks on it, and that you're missing out on half of the items potential. Wouldn't going for like a Bilgewater Cutlass and Brutalizer be better to go for? Since you get a heavy slow, and life steal earlier at the sacrifice of 10 damage, if you're just going to build a bilgewater.
Bloodthirster is 3000g for 60 damage 12 lifesteal
And its passive which grants lifesteal and damage for your kills after you get it. But this feels like its quite insignificant.
Brutalizer + Bilgewater is 3162g for 60 damage 15 lifesteal 15 armor pen 10% CRD
and 150 damage, 50% slow for 3 seconds
The only downfall is that if you build a bilgewater first you're going to lose out on 10 damage at the cost of gaining lifesteal and the 150 damage and 50% slow for 3 seconds which is on a CD of 60 seconds, allowing you to bully or escape your lane even better.
Anyone have any suggestions on why you should get a Bloodthrister or why not to get it? To me it just seems useless midgame because its passive isn't as good as a bilgewater + brutalizer and you'll have slots for them.
If a riven got bilgewater against me i'd probably laugh in their face.
On July 22 2012 06:54 D u o wrote: A lot of guides are saying to go for a blood thirstier and so far it's worked out well but why go for a stacking item, isn't it risky? They only scale well if you're engaging in teamfights but you should only be dealing with top lane unless you're jungling and then it's a bit of a different story, but if you're 1v1 top solo you're in a situation where you're only going to be fighting that one person the whole game. Which seems like it reduces the chances to get stacks on it, and that you're missing out on half of the items potential. Wouldn't going for like a Bilgewater Cutlass and Brutalizer be better to go for? Since you get a heavy slow, and life steal earlier at the sacrifice of 10 damage, if you're just going to build a bilgewater.
Bloodthirster is 3000g for 60 damage 12 lifesteal
And its passive which grants lifesteal and damage for your kills after you get it. But this feels like its quite insignificant.
Brutalizer + Bilgewater is 3162g for 60 damage 15 lifesteal 15 armor pen 10% CRD
and 150 damage, 50% slow for 3 seconds
The only downfall is that if you build a bilgewater first you're going to lose out on 10 damage at the cost of gaining lifesteal and the 150 damage and 50% slow for 3 seconds which is on a CD of 60 seconds, allowing you to bully or escape your lane even better.
Anyone have any suggestions on why you should get a Bloodthrister or why not to get it? To me it just seems useless midgame because its passive isn't as good as a bilgewater + brutalizer and you'll have slots for them.
If a riven got bilgewater against me i'd probably laugh in their face.
Bloodthirster best item on her.
On July 22 2012 07:15 GARO wrote: ... Bloodthirster gains stacks from any type of kill. That includes minions, which you'll have plenty of if you and your lane opponent are still hanging around top for farm.
Since this thread got bumped, figured I'd ask. How are people finding Jayce top? I only played 2 so far with mixed results. One went for a passive farmfest so I just killed him at 6 (he was bad), the other went super-aggressive with range mode at 1 and forced me to farm under tower. We got a gank on him eventually but he had about 10 or 15 cs lead on me at 10min mark. I caught up eventually since he started roaming, but I felt that if you don't start cloth5 and max shield, you gonna have a bad time laning vs a competent jayce. It's kinda hard to kill him 1v1 since he can just disengage with hammer knockback and then just run away with the speedgate, while simply farming is also hard because he can harass you under tower with (sped up) orb and range mode.
whats the build concensus for riven these days? i've been going wriggles, bt, hexdrinker, GA, maw. seems really strong so far, but i dunno what to build in addition
On July 24 2012 10:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: whats the build concensus for riven these days? i've been going wriggles, bt, hexdrinker, GA, maw. seems really strong so far, but i dunno what to build in addition
Last Whisper, Randuin's Omen. Some like Frozen Mallet, i don't, since i prefer the hyper carry, lane stomping type of play
On July 24 2012 10:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: whats the build concensus for riven these days? i've been going wriggles, bt, hexdrinker, GA, maw. seems really strong so far, but i dunno what to build in addition
Start: cloth5, boots3, or Dblade Matchup dependent, I personally used Goldfather's guide to learn when to use what. Even then I usually ignore it when he says blade. >.>
Core: 2/3xDblade>BT>Boots>GA BF is her big power curve jump so try and delay Vamp Scepter if you can. If laning against an AP you can go Vamp Scepter>hexdrinker>BT. If you're snowballing and your opponent is being stupid and not building armor, Vamp Scepter>Brutalizer>BT isn't a terrible option.
Lategame options: LW, MoM, Randuins Switch em out for BTs if you don't think it's needed.
I've considered doing my ez build on her minus sheen (yommus+brut+BoL) for 40% CDR while not wasting money on defensive stats riven really doesn't need. theoretically 40% CDR on riven makes her truly outrageous, even more than taric , and with the addition of decent crit chance and some serious armor pen you can rompastomp through people. It also means you can devote runes/masteries to straight up damage or tankyness as you see fit.
(also, in advance of people saying why take double brut, waste of a slot, very few games I play go to the point where I'm fully built on riven since you're stacking items like maw, IE, BT and mallet which are all in excess of 3k gold. If you could buy a single weapon that gave you 25% CDR, 55 AD, 15% crit, 35 armor penetration, 20% movespeed, 50% asp for roughly the same price as a trinity force, would you do it? If you're good with actives, that's basically what this does, and all those stats are incredibly good on riven)
Still, I think unless you've really mastered using riven's abilities and combos, going boots-BT is the smartest option IMO.
if you've mastered using riven's abilities you know that 40% cdr is a luxury for extra E and W cds and that the sheer effectiveness of additional damage and shielding on her e makes AD stronger as most fights will be decided by your initial burst and then ultimate
this is true to an extent, but I've always found riven has great fight sustain if you play her conservatively rather than going balls deep. you can pressure several champs at once with good positioning and use of your dashes, while juking a lot of the attempts to lock you down. If you want to play a champ who just latches onto someone and blows them up, I'd play Xin, Riven has a toolset to allow her to engage much more fluidly and in doing so win fights as much through confusion and misdirection as brute force, as much of that as she has.
On July 24 2012 12:51 Thereisnosaurus wrote: I've considered doing my ez build on her minus sheen (yommus+brut+BoL) for 40% CDR while not wasting money on defensive stats riven really doesn't need. theoretically 40% CDR on riven makes her truly outrageous, even more than taric , and with the addition of decent crit chance and some serious armor pen you can rompastomp through people. It also means you can devote runes/masteries to straight up damage or tankyness as you see fit.
(also, in advance of people saying why take double brut, waste of a slot, very few games I play go to the point where I'm fully built on riven since you're stacking items like maw, IE, BT and mallet which are all in excess of 3k gold. If you could buy a single weapon that gave you 25% CDR, 55 AD, 15% crit, 35 armor penetration, 20% movespeed, 50% asp for roughly the same price as a trinity force, would you do it? If you're good with actives, that's basically what this does, and all those stats are incredibly good on riven)
Still, I think unless you've really mastered using riven's abilities and combos, going boots-BT is the smartest option IMO.
Highlighted where I really disagree with your post. Riven's a melee character, and one that thrives in prolonged engagements where you get to get the most out of your short CD stuns & shields and your very long duration ulti steroid. Riven wants resists, and lots of them, to make her spammable shield (and lifesteal from BT) worth more EHP - thus the standard for her being GA, though I've been doing Warden's mail after my BT into randuins a lot lately (screw early HoGs, rather have 2 dorans than a HOG for riven any day.)
On July 24 2012 13:37 PH wrote: I got beaten by a Rumble the other day...tips? T_T
I messed up the first fight we had and gave him a free kill. After that, it just snowballed against me.
dont mess up the first fight
riven should be rumble pretty easily since you can engage and disengage at will. Rumble can't really catch you 'cause of all your dashes and your ministun. Rumble does snowball a lane really hard tho, so if you get behind early you're in for a tough time.
On July 24 2012 13:04 Thereisnosaurus wrote: this is true to an extent, but I've always found riven has great fight sustain if you play her conservatively rather than going balls deep. you can pressure several champs at once with good positioning and use of your dashes, while juking a lot of the attempts to lock you down. If you want to play a champ who just latches onto someone and blows them up, I'd play Xin, Riven has a toolset to allow her to engage much more fluidly and in doing so win fights as much through confusion and misdirection as brute force, as much of that as she has.
but what does this have to do with cdr vs ad? You can do the same with ad. Im a huge fan of cdr in general but i dont think this is one champ i would over-prioritize it
I've been putting off GA and grabbing Aegis for the health bonus, helps out quite a bit in fights, then usually building either Warden's Mail or Hex, finishing those off after Last Whisper. I've found that building GA is too reliant on the one off of reviving and I play much better when I don't have that kind of a crutch.
but what does this have to do with cdr vs ad? You can do the same with ad. Im a huge fan of cdr in general but i dont think this is one champ i would over-prioritize it
Riven's abilities give her her positioning strength, from straight mobility with Q and E to W's ability to give you a stutter advantage. with 40% CDR you can almost constantly be using abilities so long as you don't basically palm your QWE in half a second, you can pretty much go E whack W whack Q whack Q whack Q whack E whack W whack. The benefit isn't just mechanical, it's psychological, you'll be less predictable, more able to do spikes of damage or run interference. You'll have your ult up when someone doesn't expect it and so on, exactly the sort of advantages you can gain from say an early zhonyas or a trick runepage. From playing ez with 40% CDR in the early-midgame I can't overstate how much of a difference this can make.
Now I should also like to stress that I don't play riven like this, and I've always seen riven as an AD stacking champ for the same reasons as you, but often I find myself wishing I had a cooldown 2 seconds or so before I had it. I think that WITH that advantage, you really can focus on stacking offensive stats because you will just be absurdly hard to pin down and kill. Mobile enough to get in where you're needed after the first flurry of damage and squirrely enough not to get blown up instantly. Thus you can get in, deal your exceptional damage and get out before retribution strikes, meanwhile confusing and distracting the enemy. Then you can more or less immediately turn in again if the fight is going well and re-initiate with full efficiency. With a standard build, there's usually going to be a 2-3 second delay where you're waiting for those cooldowns. In a team fight, that is a *long* time
what how does any of that matter if your build gives way less damage and survivability? i dont think you understand the difference both of those categories between bruta/gb/cdr boots and a standard bt build is huge.
"confusing the enemy" what does that even mean lolwtf
you do no damage if you don't have 100ad from bt, it's really as simple as that. all the stupid shit like crit or cdr doesn't matter if you can't get to a squishy and blow them up in 5 autos. not to mention that you build no survivability or life steal.
re: rumble - allin him at 1 with dorans. if your jungler comes to help it's a guaranteed fb. you need to seriously dominate him before he gets to 6 and gets revolver because after that it's going to be a lot tougher. if he pushes you to the tower and keeps flamethrowing you from safe range, you're fucked. don't fight in his ult (obviously).
GA is fine, but you need the BT first or you just don't do anything. By the time you have a BT and a GA the lane phase should be long over. Lukewarm on Aegis.
On August 04 2012 16:22 Bflomatiq wrote: What about getting aegis and GA as riven top?
I sometimes get aegis after BT if I completely dominate my lane. If you get it by like 20min and start roaming you're really strong. But usually, if you're picking riven, you have a tanky jungler who'll benefit from aegis more, or your support will be looking to get it eventually. It's pretty situational.
On July 22 2012 06:54 D u o wrote: A lot of guides are saying to go for a blood thirstier and so far it's worked out well but why go for a stacking item, isn't it risky? They only scale well if you're engaging in teamfights but you should only be dealing with top lane unless you're jungling and then it's a bit of a different story, but if you're 1v1 top solo you're in a situation where you're only going to be fighting that one person the whole game. Which seems like it reduces the chances to get stacks on it, and that you're missing out on half of the items potential. Wouldn't going for like a Bilgewater Cutlass and Brutalizer be better to go for? Since you get a heavy slow, and life steal earlier at the sacrifice of 10 damage, if you're just going to build a bilgewater.
Bloodthirster is 3000g for 60 damage 12 lifesteal
And its passive which grants lifesteal and damage for your kills after you get it. But this feels like its quite insignificant.
Brutalizer + Bilgewater is 3162g for 60 damage 15 lifesteal 15 armor pen 10% CRD
and 150 damage, 50% slow for 3 seconds
The only downfall is that if you build a bilgewater first you're going to lose out on 10 damage at the cost of gaining lifesteal and the 150 damage and 50% slow for 3 seconds which is on a CD of 60 seconds, allowing you to bully or escape your lane even better.
Anyone have any suggestions on why you should get a Bloodthrister or why not to get it? To me it just seems useless midgame because its passive isn't as good as a bilgewater + brutalizer and you'll have slots for them.
If a riven got bilgewater against me i'd probably laugh in their face.
Bloodthirster best item on her.
Cris's riven gets bilgewater, it shits on a lot of people surprisingly,
How do you beat this stupidly OP champ? God I hate Riven. So much CC, Tankyness, Damage, and mobility. Seems unfair. What top champs besides Olaf do well vs her? I usually play Jax but he seems 50/50 vs Riven, maybe slight advantage to Riven. Does Darius beat her?
Irelia wins if she just plays passively early. Open cloth5, only trade if she forces you to, but if you're gonna trade, make it count - E W and start autoing - when she starts hopping away, Q auto and back off. The armor should let you out trade her, but don't get caught in lots of smaller engagements or riven will whittle you down and make you run out of pots or mana. Irelia farms under her turret like a boss. She also outscales Riven and by level 7-9, riven needs to be very afraid of Irelia.
Properly played, riven will be forcing you to miss CS early and push the lane for a level advantage at 1-3. You MUST not get chunked by her when she has a level up on you this early or you're going to have to back when she has the minion wave pushed into your turret. Your goal is to survive and CS under/near turret until 6, pop your ult to clear the wave, then buy items. (Tabi + wriggles bits has worked very well for me in this matchup, phage seems good too, especially if you expect jungle pressure, YMMV) If you get jungle intervention before then (riven IS pushed up after all, right?) then you can turn it around and try to kill her.
Not Nunu, Nunu gets crushed by riven. All she has to do is level up her E, get a hexdrinker and merc treads, and she can maul you and ignore your snowballs with her hopping around.
Darius can outdamage riven in trades straight up, but is significantly easier to gank.
And the thing about aegis, is for 700 more you have a GA, which is even more terrifying when you start roaming. I find however, that the lane phase usually breaks down sometime around when I finish my BT, and maybe I'll have a chainmail. Rather have a chainmail than 2 aegis bits at that point, or I won't have slots for wards.
Teemo, Garen, Kennen, Trundle, Fiora, and Renekton are he hardest matchups in lane. I, personally have the most trouble with Teemo.
Kayle can be overcome by using the brush intelligently, but few Rivens know/do that. I've heard Darius is an troublesome matchup in lane, but I've personally laughed all Darius I've seen out of lane so I can't comment on how he's supposed to work well against her.
On August 05 2012 09:51 greggy wrote: darius, teemo, kennen, kayle and possibly nunu all do very well. a few others (notably irelia) can win with some jungler intervention.
Kayle and Darius dump on her, Teemo loses at 6 or do a level 3 all in, kennen is a skill matchup between the 2 and Nunu gets rolled hard by Riven.
Irelia can win by playing passive and farming. Also Tigerdyr can in the same fashion.
On August 05 2012 10:42 Gahlo wrote: Teemo, Garen, Kennen, Trundle, Fiora, and Renekton are he hardest matchups in lane. I, personally have the most trouble with Teemo.
Kayle can be overcome by using the brush intelligently, but few Rivens know/do that. I've heard Darius is an troublesome matchup in lane, but I've personally laughed all Darius I've seen out of lane so I can't comment on how he's supposed to work well against her.
Garen is easy mode, he press Q you press W, he press E you press E. You outscale him and will be able to 1v1 him after harassing him down.
Ken is not a hard lane IMO, skill both ways. Fiora? How so? You out damage, can stun while she has her ASpeed boost and can stick to her. Unless you are dumb with your ult and ult her as she ults I don't see how she can beat Riven but its probably more skill orientated than anything. Trundle will get outscaled and can't really kill you so just farm and ward since his gank assistance is good. Renekton is tough early and his 6 is as strong as yours so its tough, but another skill match up.
Darius kills riven from level 1 and continues so until 6. Kayle wont let you in a bush if she is smart, at least not the one near her and if you ever engage on her you cannot back off without dying.
On August 05 2012 09:51 greggy wrote: darius, teemo, kennen, kayle and possibly nunu all do very well. a few others (notably irelia) can win with some jungler intervention.
Kayle and Darius dump on her, Teemo loses at 6 or do a level 3 all in, kennen is a skill matchup between the 2 and Nunu gets rolled hard by Riven.
Irelia can win by playing passive and farming. Also Tigerdyr can in the same fashion.
On August 05 2012 10:42 Gahlo wrote: Teemo, Garen, Kennen, Trundle, Fiora, and Renekton are he hardest matchups in lane. I, personally have the most trouble with Teemo.
Kayle can be overcome by using the brush intelligently, but few Rivens know/do that. I've heard Darius is an troublesome matchup in lane, but I've personally laughed all Darius I've seen out of lane so I can't comment on how he's supposed to work well against her.
Garen is easy mode, he press Q you press W, he press E you press E. You outscale him and will be able to 1v1 him after harassing him down.
Ken is not a hard lane IMO, skill both ways. Fiora? How so? You out damage, can stun while she has her ASpeed boost and can stick to her. Unless you are dumb with your ult and ult her as she ults I don't see how she can beat Riven but its probably more skill orientated than anything. Trundle will get outscaled and can't really kill you so just farm and ward since his gank assistance is good. Renekton is tough early and his 6 is as strong as yours so its tough, but another skill match up.
Darius kills riven from level 1 and continues so until 6. Kayle wont let you in a bush if she is smart, at least not the one near her and if you ever engage on her you cannot back off without dying.
All lanes can be properly played and won, doesn't make them any easier, though. I don't see how you're supposed to harass Garen down without opening yourself up to getting QE'd.
Riven doesn't out trade Fiora early without care. Even if she does, the sustain from her passive makes up for it after the fight/csing and she can disengage with her Q. Riven gets most of her damage from her passive charged autos, which Fiora can parry one of. In essence, fighting with Fiora comes down to who budges first on using abilities. Fiora has stronger autos from higher AD and 31 +10% armor pen.
Trundle fights against Riven well because his abilities force her to fight on his terms or back off. At 6 he cripples Riven's resistances, which she is already dependent upon.
Trying to go into the bush that Kayle already zones you from is asking for trouble. You can harass Kayle with the standard EW engage, then hussle your butt into the brush with Qs, severely limiting the time you are open to reprisal because you're untargetable in the bush unless you're forcing her to ward it. Geting an early null-magic mantle cuts a lot of her early damage if you need it.
Darius is fought easily by baiting out his Q to push the lane, exposing him to his gank weakness. If he lands apprehend you can just stun and dash away.
It seems like with Kayle and Darius you're saying "well if you do this, this, and this wrong, you lose." Well just don't do that then!
If it was that simple people wouldnt consider kayle a counter to riven. At which point in harrassding kayle like that are yiu getting cs? experience tells me you aren't. Mixed damage fucks riven. Udyr kayle darius. Sure riven is playable in those lanes but those three are the best counters
I've always had the easiest time against Riven playing Irelia. As long as I go in with armor seals + quints and just NOT give her a kill and hit lvl 7, I've always won the lane extremely easily. Even in those cases I did give her an early kill due to a good jungle gank, I have almost always been able to turn the lane around by just rushing a chain vest and killing her at lvl 7-9. It's just too easy to itemize against Riven while she has a harder time itemizing against you since she ideally doesn't want to spend gold on health items.
On August 05 2012 19:01 Bladeorade wrote: If it was that simple people wouldnt consider kayle a counter to riven. At which point in harrassding kayle like that are yiu getting cs? experience tells me you aren't. Mixed damage fucks riven. Udyr kayle darius. Sure riven is playable in those lanes but those three are the best counters
Except it isn't as mixed as you think, and isn't as big of an issue with Doran's blades. Most of Kayle's damage early in the game is magic. The vast majority of Darius' non-truedamage is physical. Udyr is baited out of his activation bonuses, like Fiora is. Base MR, runes, and something as little as an early null-magic mantle gives you and effective 50%+ more HP against magic damage.
Riven shouldn't play the same exact way against all matchups. Court of public opinion doesn't really know who Riven has issues with because there are a lot of BAD Rivens. The single hardest lane for Riven is Teemo.
You buy an NMM against me as Kayle and I will laugh in your face. How is most of her damage magic? I play AD Kayle top, you know like BF sword after 2 dorans blades (and kayles magic damage scales with AD). While your hopping around trying to harass I'll be farming, and if your trying to farm I'll be blowing you up. Riven cannot farm vs Kayle, cannot engage vs Kayle, and Kayles ult counters Rivens.
Darius has a very strong dot that deals magic damage (and scales with AD) and then his true damage execute. The find it amusing that you say the vast majority of his non true damage is physical. Thats NP cuz he does a billion true damage rofl.
Udyr baited out of his bonuses? So your cooldowns must be shorter than his yes? Or are you just not going in melee range to harass? You do realize Udyr can wait till you engage, bear -> tiger -> turtle. The magic dot from tiger is a huge amount of his damage (and it scales with AD.)
Versus Garen you do play passive? I didn't mean it was an easy lane to kill him in I just meant it is an easy lane. You should never be in threat of dying. If he comes at you with Q, press W. If he uses Q for the MS boost with E, press your E and hop away. Try and save your 3rd hop for the CC on him after he uses his cooldowns. Its not difficult.
It's like this:
1. Has Garen pressed Q? If yes Press W and run. If no farm.
2. Has Garen Pressed E? If yes press E and run, if no farm.
3. Has Garen used his offensive cooldowns cooldowns? If yes harass with Q, if no farm.
4. Does Garen have W up and its post 6? If yes refer to steps 1 2 and 3, if no refer to step 3 and consider pressing R and going all in.
On August 06 2012 05:19 Bladeorade wrote: You buy an NMM against me as Kayle and I will laugh in your face. How is most of her damage magic? I play AD Kayle top, you know like BF sword after 2 dorans blades (and kayles magic damage scales with AD). While your hopping around trying to harass I'll be farming, and if your trying to farm I'll be blowing you up. Riven cannot farm vs Kayle, cannot engage vs Kayle, and Kayles ult counters Rivens.
Darius has a very strong dot that deals magic damage (and scales with AD) and then his true damage execute. The find it amusing that you say the vast majority of his non true damage is physical. Thats NP cuz he does a billion true damage rofl.
Udyr baited out of his bonuses? So your cooldowns must be shorter than his yes? Or are you just not going in melee range to harass? You do realize Udyr can wait till you engage, bear -> tiger -> turtle. The magic dot from tiger is a huge amount of his damage (and it scales with AD.)
Versus Garen you do play passive? I didn't mean it was an easy lane to kill him in I just meant it is an easy lane. You should never be in threat of dying. If he comes at you with Q, press W. If he uses Q for the MS boost with E, press your E and hop away. Try and save your 3rd hop for the CC on him after he uses his cooldowns. Its not difficult.
It's like this:
1. Has Garen pressed Q? If yes Press W and run. If no farm.
2. Has Garen Pressed E? If yes press E and run, if no farm.
3. Has Garen used his offensive cooldowns cooldowns? If yes harass with Q, if no farm.
4. Does Garen have W up and its post 6? If yes refer to steps 1 2 and 3, if no refer to step 3 and consider pressing R and going all in.
I said most of her EARLY damage. Whether a lane is lost, even, or won with Riven comes down to early level play. Q and Esplash are magic damage.
Does Darius' passive scale with AD? Yeah. But how many early AD items does Darius build? Not many. Base resistence, runes and masteries are enough to give me +50% effective health vs magic damage. I'm sorry, but you're going "this guys does all three types of damage" and saying I'm going to have trouble because of BY FAR his weakest outputed type.
As for Udyr, it doesn't matter what my cooldowns are. Mine don't cost mana. I don't need to engage him because he falls off into lategame and I scale stupid well. Riven can win a lot of lanes by being passive and just flat out scaling better. Udyr is one of them.
Sorry if I'm not too worried about magic damage on Riven, I know how to build a hexdrinker if need be.
On August 06 2012 05:19 Bladeorade wrote: You buy an NMM against me as Kayle and I will laugh in your face. How is most of her damage magic? I play AD Kayle top, you know like BF sword after 2 dorans blades (and kayles magic damage scales with AD). While your hopping around trying to harass I'll be farming, and if your trying to farm I'll be blowing you up. Riven cannot farm vs Kayle, cannot engage vs Kayle, and Kayles ult counters Rivens.
Darius has a very strong dot that deals magic damage (and scales with AD) and then his true damage execute. The find it amusing that you say the vast majority of his non true damage is physical. Thats NP cuz he does a billion true damage rofl.
Udyr baited out of his bonuses? So your cooldowns must be shorter than his yes? Or are you just not going in melee range to harass? You do realize Udyr can wait till you engage, bear -> tiger -> turtle. The magic dot from tiger is a huge amount of his damage (and it scales with AD.)
Versus Garen you do play passive? I didn't mean it was an easy lane to kill him in I just meant it is an easy lane. You should never be in threat of dying. If he comes at you with Q, press W. If he uses Q for the MS boost with E, press your E and hop away. Try and save your 3rd hop for the CC on him after he uses his cooldowns. Its not difficult.
It's like this:
1. Has Garen pressed Q? If yes Press W and run. If no farm.
2. Has Garen Pressed E? If yes press E and run, if no farm.
3. Has Garen used his offensive cooldowns cooldowns? If yes harass with Q, if no farm.
4. Does Garen have W up and its post 6? If yes refer to steps 1 2 and 3, if no refer to step 3 and consider pressing R and going all in.
I said most of her EARLY damage. Whether a lane is lost, even, or won with Riven comes down to early level play. Q and Esplash are magic damage.
Does Darius' passive scale with AD? Yeah. But how many early AD items does Darius build? Not many. Base resistence, runes and masteries are enough to give me +50% effective health vs magic damage. I'm sorry, but you're going "this guys does all three types of damage" and saying I'm going to have trouble because of BY FAR his weakest outputed type.
As for Udyr, it doesn't matter what my cooldowns are. Mine don't cost mana. I don't need to engage him because he falls off into lategame and I scale stupid well. Riven can win a lot of lanes by being passive and just flat out scaling better. Udyr is one of them.
Sorry if I'm not too worried about magic damage on Riven, I know how to build a hexdrinker if need be.
If you play smart with Udyr your spells dont exactly cost mana either, turtle op, not to mention the longer the lane goes on the stronger udyr will get since his spells actually go down in mana cost as he levels up(while his manaregen/lifesteal increase from turtle)
I first started playing Riven when I read a guide on solomid, describing her as a massive late game carry.
Nowadays though, I feel weaker once the game goes past the 30 minute mark or so. I have a BT and GA as my core, and I'm not really sure what my thought process needs to be when considering what to buy next. Assuming it's not double AP, can anyone give me some advice as to when I would get another BT, and when I should get something for durability. I'm usually fairly fed going into the lategame, but I find it hard to carry when I'm stuck between building enough damage to nuke the carry, or building durability which prevents me from killing anyone.
On August 15 2012 00:47 Agnosthar wrote: I first started playing Riven when I read a guide on solomid, describing her as a massive late game carry.
Nowadays though, I feel weaker once the game goes past the 30 minute mark or so. I have a BT and GA as my core, and I'm not really sure what my thought process needs to be when considering what to buy next. Assuming it's not double AP, can anyone give me some advice as to when I would get another BT, and when I should get something for durability. I'm usually fairly fed going into the lategame, but I find it hard to carry when I'm stuck between building enough damage to nuke the carry, or building durability which prevents me from killing anyone.
After your GA is when you get 2nd bt i'd say.
vs double ap or something though i like getting Maw after GA
On August 15 2012 00:47 Agnosthar wrote: I first started playing Riven when I read a guide on solomid, describing her as a massive late game carry.
Nowadays though, I feel weaker once the game goes past the 30 minute mark or so. I have a BT and GA as my core, and I'm not really sure what my thought process needs to be when considering what to buy next. Assuming it's not double AP, can anyone give me some advice as to when I would get another BT, and when I should get something for durability. I'm usually fairly fed going into the lategame, but I find it hard to carry when I'm stuck between building enough damage to nuke the carry, or building durability which prevents me from killing anyone.
My usual build is is Boots3->2x dorans (i skip one dorans for a brutalizer if they have a low-armor top)->mercs or tabi->BT->GA->LW->Frozen mallet if i need slows/hp, another BT if i need more damage, or randuins if they have heavy heavy ad damage. You can swap the LW and 2nd BT depending on how much armor they have, but I almost always get LW first.
Vs AP I tend to go Boots3->1x doran->hexdrinker & mercs->BT->GA->LW->Maw->Mallet or another BT.
Usually if we have a tanky jungle I build more for damage. You just need to know your limits and not over-do it. For example, if I can jump on their AD or AP and melt them in 2 seconds with a BT alone, I'm probably safe on damage (for now). If its taking me like 9 seconds to kill them though, I should probably build more damage instead of survivability (this is assuming you're not just straight up ballsing out and running in first -- I tend to stay right behind our initiator and then hop onto a high priority target after so I'm not the first thing everyone is shooting at).
What are peoples thoughts on Randuins? HoG is probably a terrible choice since it delays everything and Riven definitely doesn't need health early, but Warden's seems like it provides her a similar benefit vs AD as Hex does vs AP with similar cost. (The HP regen is still useful during laning.)
Lantern or Dorans into Warden into BT into GA into Randuins. Obviously depends on what your up against but if your team needs you tankier/top is someone who could be screwed by attack speed.
On August 15 2012 01:24 Lounge wrote: What are peoples thoughts on Randuins? HoG is probably a terrible choice since it delays everything and Riven definitely doesn't need health early, but Warden's seems like it provides her a similar benefit vs AD as Hex does vs AP with similar cost. (The HP regen is still useful during laning.)
Lantern or Dorans into Warden into BT into GA into Randuins. Obviously depends on what your up against but if your team needs you tankier/top is someone who could be screwed by attack speed.
I mean, it could work (vs someone like Tryn or an AD top I could see it being effective). However, a lot of Riven's dominance comes from ability to get kills and snowball, and I think Tabi is enough defensive power for trading in lane vs an AD, while not sacrificing too much damage (which would happen if you went Warden's).
On August 15 2012 00:47 Agnosthar wrote: I first started playing Riven when I read a guide on solomid, describing her as a massive late game carry.
Nowadays though, I feel weaker once the game goes past the 30 minute mark or so. I have a BT and GA as my core, and I'm not really sure what my thought process needs to be when considering what to buy next. Assuming it's not double AP, can anyone give me some advice as to when I would get another BT, and when I should get something for durability. I'm usually fairly fed going into the lategame, but I find it hard to carry when I'm stuck between building enough damage to nuke the carry, or building durability which prevents me from killing anyone.
Well....you don't really need to build durability on Riven because her e is so strong and you lifesteal well too.
My advice would be (and take it with a grain of salt), if it's not double AP (because obviously Maw would be the next item I would say), I would probably build another BT if the other team isn't stacking armor, or building LW if they are. Depending on my boots, I would change them if they start chain cc'ing me like crazy (so I'd get merc treads, I think)
For lane, I hear Wingsofdeath has a strong Riven. For jungle, look for NintendudeX(as he was known then.) She hasn't gotten much competitive play recently, however.
What are people opinion on the vs. Garen matchup now? I just ran into it and it went pretty smoothly. The scaling silence duration made misplays less punishing. He chose to go tanky(giants belt/tabi) first, which made him able to take my burst. It ended up being a roughly even trade, but it was clear he couldn't aggress me for any positive ground. Has anybody gone against a garen who chooses to build offensively, for example double dorans brutalizer?
On August 23 2012 21:32 ReadySetFire wrote: Anyone recommend me any good games of a pro-gamer playing as Riven?
I recommend Wingsofdeathx. Goldfather8 claimed that Wings is 3rd best Riven after himself and SoloTopOnly. However, neither of those two maintain a stream. Wingsofdeathx is the only streamer I know of other than Scarra who actually articulate and explain his actions while maintaining a sense of humor. Just keep flipping through his archive videos till you find Riven gameplay.
What are people opinion on the vs. Garen matchup now? I just ran into it and it went pretty smoothly. The scaling silence duration made misplays less punishing. He chose to go tanky(giants belt/tabi) first, which made him able to take my burst. It ended up being a roughly even trade, but it was clear he couldn't aggress me for any positive ground. Has anybody gone against a garen who chooses to build offensively, for example double dorans brutalizer?
Oh man, I really, really don't like that. I'd much rather do it like how wingsofdeath specs his masteries, except with the 1 spare point on the offensive tree into butcher rather than havoc. Veteran's scar is too good to pass up. And in any case, I would always take the 3% lifesteal over 0.5ad/lvl (really, really bad; outright terrible).
On August 15 2012 00:47 Agnosthar wrote: I first started playing Riven when I read a guide on solomid, describing her as a massive late game carry.
Nowadays though, I feel weaker once the game goes past the 30 minute mark or so. I have a BT and GA as my core, and I'm not really sure what my thought process needs to be when considering what to buy next. Assuming it's not double AP, can anyone give me some advice as to when I would get another BT, and when I should get something for durability. I'm usually fairly fed going into the lategame, but I find it hard to carry when I'm stuck between building enough damage to nuke the carry, or building durability which prevents me from killing anyone.
My usual build is is Boots3->2x dorans (i skip one dorans for a brutalizer if they have a low-armor top)->mercs or tabi->BT->GA->LW->Frozen mallet if i need slows/hp, another BT if i need more damage, or randuins if they have heavy heavy ad damage. You can swap the LW and 2nd BT depending on how much armor they have, but I almost always get LW first.
Vs AP I tend to go Boots3->1x doran->hexdrinker & mercs->BT->GA->LW->Maw->Mallet or another BT.
Usually if we have a tanky jungle I build more for damage. You just need to know your limits and not over-do it. For example, if I can jump on their AD or AP and melt them in 2 seconds with a BT alone, I'm probably safe on damage (for now). If its taking me like 9 seconds to kill them though, I should probably build more damage instead of survivability (this is assuming you're not just straight up ballsing out and running in first -- I tend to stay right behind our initiator and then hop onto a high priority target after so I'm not the first thing everyone is shooting at).
Wow the damage you must deal. I play Riven a lot but I usually go for armor/MR instead of more damage after my first BT. I guess I've been doing it wrong all along. xD
I sometimes get a Brutalizer earlier on for laning phase, without ever building into a GB.
Not sure if the Mallet is good on her because the health almost feels unneeded, as does the slow considering the CC/gap closers Riven has.
That said I'm a relatively new player so I guess I still need to change my shit up. :p
Also I go for full flat AD runes because of her scaling. Like, every single ability she has scales on AD. Awesome early game boost, imo. With obviously yellow armor and scaling blue MR.
Riven is my most played champion, and honestly I really really dislike Frozen mallet.
Your E is on such a short cooldown and if you have a lot of AD (+150) that's basically a 1000 hp right there if you just get 3 shields off, which basically means that armor/mres is much better than HP. I also don't feel the slow is necessary at all because you already have quite a bit of sticking power simply due to your mobility and your W stun (also the slow is better if you're a sustained dmg dealer like Irelia rather than a bursty champ like Riven). And if you still feel like the slow is necesarry you can just get an early phage and never upgrade it. Ever.
The only 2 hp items I would ever consider buying are Aegis (yes, Aegis) and Randuin's.
On August 23 2012 21:32 ReadySetFire wrote: Anyone recommend me any good games of a pro-gamer playing as Riven?
I recommend Wingsofdeathx. Goldfather8 claimed that Wings is 3rd best Riven after himself and SoloTopOnly. However, neither of those two maintain a stream. Wingsofdeathx is the only streamer I know of other than Scarra who actually articulate and explain his actions while maintaining a sense of humor. Just keep flipping through his archive videos till you find Riven gameplay.
goldfather is not a very good riven but i think he is not as good a player overall compared to some streamers who play her. i like cris' aggression with riven, he roams mid with decent effectiveness. wings pretty solid overall with a few mistakes but a great learning resource.
On August 15 2012 00:47 Agnosthar wrote: I first started playing Riven when I read a guide on solomid, describing her as a massive late game carry.
Nowadays though, I feel weaker once the game goes past the 30 minute mark or so. I have a BT and GA as my core, and I'm not really sure what my thought process needs to be when considering what to buy next. Assuming it's not double AP, can anyone give me some advice as to when I would get another BT, and when I should get something for durability. I'm usually fairly fed going into the lategame, but I find it hard to carry when I'm stuck between building enough damage to nuke the carry, or building durability which prevents me from killing anyone.
i still think riven is an absolute beast lategame but i was definitely overstating her strengths in this thread's op and in my tsm guide because she was super underplayed at release and people trolled me for picking her T_T on 6 item lategames she will not be able to duel ADs who can use their skills to dodge her or certain 1v1 beasts like tryndamere, jax, etc., but her ability to snowball, her mobility in teamfights, and AoE strength is often greater than these heroes. you can definitely abuse the midgame teamfights and being on 6 items as compared to the enemys' 4-5 you can definitely beat them. Riven also maintains her power as compared to most other toplane bruisers even in those 6 item lategame situations in a 5 on 5 situation due to her knockup threat which always maintains its presence due to its inability to be cleansed and ability to follow up with w and ultimate for instantaneous burst. in other words, if you can chain your AoE with your team, i still maintain that she is an extremely potent lategame threat. its just that many teams have turned away from these AoE cc teams and champs (for instance galio is in my opinion one of the most synergistic picks with riven but has fallen out of flavor as of late) and towards AoE damage and dispersion and threat instead (champions that split up fights and abuse the split as people will deliberately avoid the AoE damage, such as vlad, karthus, gragas, morgana etc)
On August 23 2012 21:32 ReadySetFire wrote: Anyone recommend me any good games of a pro-gamer playing as Riven?
I recommend Wingsofdeathx. Goldfather8 claimed that Wings is 3rd best Riven after himself and SoloTopOnly. However, neither of those two maintain a stream. Wingsofdeathx is the only streamer I know of other than Scarra who actually articulate and explain his actions while maintaining a sense of humor. Just keep flipping through his archive videos till you find Riven gameplay.
goldfather is not a very good riven but i think he is not as good a player overall compared to some streamers who play her. i like cris' aggression with riven, he roams mid with decent effectiveness. wings pretty solid overall with a few mistakes but a great learning resource.
Either way, Goldfather8 has quit League because of school. He might find more time than he has expected, but currently he's done.
EDIT: I think...I think I'm seriously going to try 9/21/0. Not sold on it but a few good points have been brought to my attention.
What's people's opinion on Lord Van Damm's Pillager (the new bruta upgrade) on riven? If you go something like fast bruta into vamp scepter for some sustain into hog, sitting on that for a while till you get bt with or without ga and then upgrading?
Maybe this was discussed in GD but I'll theorycraft anyway.
If I were to play TT, I'd rush Blade of the Ruined King as fast as humanly possible. However, since neither item are confirmed for SR it's a moot point.
As a side note, it stinks that we can't get multiple threads for maps types without cluttering conversation. =[
I used to main her but started to play her less and less. High elo players also seem to play her less and less. Darius and Jayce are both very difficult to deal with, and those two make me not want to play Riven top, especially since Darius is now a very popular pick.
High ELO players never really picked her up in the first place outside of Westrice. You'd see her here and there, but it'd usually be strange, like jungle Riven with bad items, or building silly stuff like FMallet on her in top lane.
She is comparable in power, in my opinion, to Jayce and Darius. While she gets shut down by armor more (no true or magic damage like them), she also has no mana, higher mobility, more reliable AoE than Jayce, and a great defensive steroid that scales off AD. In my opinion she's the best out of the three at diving and focusing the AD carry, since she can't be kited like Darius can and can survive and lock down better than Jayce.
Anyone have an idea how to beat Voli in lane as Riven? I don't get the match up often so I don't know much about it but every time I play vs Voli I tend to lose.
I think he has super long cool downs no? It's all I can think of tbh. Anyone with good pointers on this one would be much appreciated.
On November 19 2012 16:05 Incognoto wrote: Anyone have an idea how to beat Voli in lane as Riven? I don't get the match up often so I don't know much about it but every time I play vs Voli I tend to lose.
I think he has super long cool downs no? It's all I can think of tbh. Anyone with good pointers on this one would be much appreciated.
Use the standard harass combo, back up when he tries to chase you down to negate the flip. Drawn out trades play into his favor because he gets passive AS from his W on autos. Save ignite for counteracting his passive.
I'm a bit miffed about the change to SR BotRK and the, in my opinion, nerf to BT. Granted getting a BF is a tad faster but now BT is more expensive overall and has less sustain. I was willing to take a hit in the AD to have BotRK give a smoother build path and fling around some magic damage for once, but that got changed. =[
Why do you guys even want to build botrk on Riven when its passive is an auto attack modifier. I get that Cris builds cutlass on Riven all the time, but spending 1000 gold on cutlass to get an auto attack modifier?
IDK I'd be aiming to build the new BC.
edit: even on TT, why in the world would you wan to get botrk "as fast as possible" when there's the pillager.
On November 20 2012 03:04 koreasilver wrote: Why do you guys even want to build botrk on Riven when its passive is an auto attack modifier. I get that Cris builds cutlass on Riven all the time, but spending 1000 gold on cutlass to get an auto attack modifier?
IDK I'd be aiming to build the new BC.
edit: even on TT, why in the world would you wan to get botrk "as fast as possible" when there's the pillager.
Riven is all about working in auto attacks...that's what her entire passive is. She's not an AD caster by any means.
That's like saying Pantheon isn't an AD caster because you work in auto attacks into his combos. Of course Riven works in auto attacks because of her passive but every AD caster fits in auto attacks into their combos. By design Riven is an AD caster and to say otherwise is completely nonsensical.
On November 20 2012 07:31 koreasilver wrote: Okay guys, Renekton is no longer an AD caster because he has to auto attack to charge up his passive.
...but BotRK would be great on Renekton too. Renekton and Riven rely on staying with you and auto attacking to do most of their damage. They want to be constantly hitting you.
On the other hand heroes like Talon, Jayce, Kha'Zix, Pantheon are true AD casters. They rely almost purely on their abilities to do damage and don't actually want to get in your face fighting you for a long time.
EDIT: In any case it's semantics of what you want to classify as an AD caster. But Riven is definitely huge on auto attacking and would do it much more than for example the four heroes I mentioned above. Thus BotRK isn't bad on her. It isn't ideal, I agree with you, but it's not as horrible as building it on say Talon. I could see it being a great situational buy if you're against something like a Shen or Cho'gath.
On November 20 2012 07:31 koreasilver wrote: Okay guys, Renekton is no longer an AD caster because he has to auto attack to charge up his passive.
...but BotRK would be great on Renekton too. Renekton and Riven rely on staying with you and auto attacking to do most of their damage. They want to be constantly hitting you.
On the other hand heroes like Talon, Jayce, Kha'Zix, Pantheon are true AD casters. They rely almost purely on their abilities to do damage and don't actually want to get in your face fighting you for a long time.
EDIT: In any case it's semantics of what you want to classify as an AD caster. But Riven is definitely huge on auto attacking and would do it much more than for example the four heroes I mentioned above. Thus BotRK isn't bad on her. It isn't ideal, I agree with you, but it's not as horrible as building it on say Talon. I could see it being a great situational buy if you're against something like a Shen or Cho'gath.
Actually it's optimal for pantheon to auto attack the shit out of you whenever he has the chance
On November 08 2012 16:13 Deltablazy wrote: Is Riven even worth playing these days?
I used to main her but started to play her less and less. High elo players also seem to play her less and less. Darius and Jayce are both very difficult to deal with, and those two make me not want to play Riven top, especially since Darius is now a very popular pick.
nobody plays riven because currently fotm jax/irelia completely shit on her, yes u can bully them for abit at early lvl but when they get tabis its all over, on top of that they both scale better late game
On November 20 2012 07:31 koreasilver wrote: Okay guys, Renekton is no longer an AD caster because he has to auto attack to charge up his passive.
...but BotRK would be great on Renekton too. Renekton and Riven rely on staying with you and auto attacking to do most of their damage. They want to be constantly hitting you.
On the other hand heroes like Talon, Jayce, Kha'Zix, Pantheon are true AD casters. They rely almost purely on their abilities to do damage and don't actually want to get in your face fighting you for a long time.
EDIT: In any case it's semantics of what you want to classify as an AD caster. But Riven is definitely huge on auto attacking and would do it much more than for example the four heroes I mentioned above. Thus BotRK isn't bad on her. It isn't ideal, I agree with you, but it's not as horrible as building it on say Talon. I could see it being a great situational buy if you're against something like a Shen or Cho'gath.
Actually it's optimal for pantheon to auto attack the shit out of you whenever he has the chance
Not really, his shield is nice for blocking 2 hits (with his W) but he's still going to get his shit pushed in by almost anyone top in an auto attack fight. Darius, Irelia, Jax, etc would all destroy him if he stood there and fought them even with his passive.
On November 20 2012 07:31 koreasilver wrote: Okay guys, Renekton is no longer an AD caster because he has to auto attack to charge up his passive.
...but BotRK would be great on Renekton too. Renekton and Riven rely on staying with you and auto attacking to do most of their damage. They want to be constantly hitting you.
On the other hand heroes like Talon, Jayce, Kha'Zix, Pantheon are true AD casters. They rely almost purely on their abilities to do damage and don't actually want to get in your face fighting you for a long time.
EDIT: In any case it's semantics of what you want to classify as an AD caster. But Riven is definitely huge on auto attacking and would do it much more than for example the four heroes I mentioned above. Thus BotRK isn't bad on her. It isn't ideal, I agree with you, but it's not as horrible as building it on say Talon. I could see it being a great situational buy if you're against something like a Shen or Cho'gath.
Actually it's optimal for pantheon to auto attack the shit out of you whenever he has the chance
Not really, his shield is nice for blocking 2 hits (with his W) but he's still going to get his shit pushed in by almost anyone top in an auto attack fight. Darius, Irelia, Jax, etc would all destroy him if he stood there and fought them even with his passive.
after some levels sure. but in the early lane, especially around levels 2-3, pantheon will win the exchange. Landing a couple Q's and then surprising the enemy with auto attack damage and W + ignite has gotten me first blood more times than I can count
On November 20 2012 07:31 koreasilver wrote: Okay guys, Renekton is no longer an AD caster because he has to auto attack to charge up his passive.
...but BotRK would be great on Renekton too. Renekton and Riven rely on staying with you and auto attacking to do most of their damage. They want to be constantly hitting you.
On the other hand heroes like Talon, Jayce, Kha'Zix, Pantheon are true AD casters. They rely almost purely on their abilities to do damage and don't actually want to get in your face fighting you for a long time.
EDIT: In any case it's semantics of what you want to classify as an AD caster. But Riven is definitely huge on auto attacking and would do it much more than for example the four heroes I mentioned above. Thus BotRK isn't bad on her. It isn't ideal, I agree with you, but it's not as horrible as building it on say Talon. I could see it being a great situational buy if you're against something like a Shen or Cho'gath.
Actually it's optimal for pantheon to auto attack the shit out of you whenever he has the chance
Not really, his shield is nice for blocking 2 hits (with his W) but he's still going to get his shit pushed in by almost anyone top in an auto attack fight. Darius, Irelia, Jax, etc would all destroy him if he stood there and fought them even with his passive.
after some levels sure. but in the early lane, especially around levels 2-3, pantheon will win the exchange. Landing a couple Q's and then surprising the enemy with auto attack damage and W + ignite has gotten me first blood more times than I can count
Yeah he's a real bitch in those levels. He gets so powerless though if you don't get a huge advantage early, enemy just comes to lane with some armour and sustain, gets a few levels and then ignores you and outscales you. He feels like a super weak version of Jayce which sucks because I loved playing Pantheon.
On November 20 2012 03:04 koreasilver wrote: Why do you guys even want to build botrk on Riven when its passive is an auto attack modifier. I get that Cris builds cutlass on Riven all the time, but spending 1000 gold on cutlass to get an auto attack modifier?
IDK I'd be aiming to build the new BC.
edit: even on TT, why in the world would you wan to get botrk "as fast as possible" when there's the pillager.
You know what else is an AA modifier? Lifesteal and people buy that for the sustain. You know what it also added onto BotRK's passive, in addition to the lifesteal that is on it? A different kind of sustain. The main reason I was interested in getting BotRK on Riven was because it built easier and dealt magic damage so it wasn't "lulz I got tabi get out of my lane" mode.
I was really hoping there'd be something to make me not have to rush BT. I thought maybe pick up a vamp scepter and rush BC, but with the vamp scepter change it doesn't look much better.
A lot of the time the reason you buy a vamp is because its a component of BT above anything else. Especially on TT why the hell would you rush a very suboptimal cutlass upgrade instead of building the pillager that you can use with 100% effectiveness because of your champion design? And some expensive aa modifier that doesn't scale with your champ design AT ALL is not going to help you against an armor stacking irelia.
I'm talking purely from an SR viewpoint, Pillager is a nonissue. I was looking at vamp scepter similar to an adc mindset. They don't build BT till their 4th item, usually, but they buy a scepter early anyway because it is cheap and they want the sustain. The option of cheap sustain item > build BC is weakened heavily by the vamp scepter change.
But then again, silly me for wanting to try out a way to get magic damage on a physical-only champion that people rush to stack armor against. Silly me for wanting an item with an active that has its damage scale with AD, the champions prime stat.
Okay, lets change the topic instead of arguing about that.
So what do you guys build on Riven nowadays?
I've been using the build talked about on this thread:
Boots/Dorans -> Bloodthirster -> GA -> 2nd BT -> Last Whisper
But I've been really anxious to add in some health for her. Yes AD gives her bigger shield but because she's melee and needs to get in close to multiple enemies to multi-stun in teamfights, I feel like adding health is really needed. Which leaves a few options: Warmogs, Frozen, Aegis/Randuin's. Aegis/Randuin's are good but they don't add enough health. Frozen seems good but you guys say that the permaslow is not needed since she has good CC. So does that I mean I should build Warmogs?
Why are you tunneling flat health increases though? (especially late game) Resists are king when you have a spammable shield. What's wrong with Aegis/Randuins which add moderate health and great chunk of resists, if survivability is what you want?
I tend to go [sometimes brutalizer] -> BT -> GA -> LW/Randuins in no particular order -> Second BT. Randuins is pretty much THE item to get if you're struggling to stick to an AD carry with peelers on you without them kiting+murdering you.
I don't really think you need 2 BT's before considering last whisper, either.
It's also worth noting that the reworked Doran's blade provides more sustain early in the game, and only starts dropping off compared to its current incarnation when you have ~150+ AD.
On another note I think, Currently but especially after the ArPen change, LW is the item to deal with "lol I built armor" problems and if someone's really going to stack armor against you, building it early is the way to go. It's also worth noting that tabi is 150 more gold after the S3 boot changes. Much better than trying to build a source of magic damage which usually actually works badly against another bruiser, who probably has natural MR scaling and runes, since you aren't going to have ANY MPen, EVER.
I usually find that getting a second BT isn't great. Disregarding some early game laning tools like dblade, after BT -> GA you're going to be at a point of the game where the enemy team will have usually have armor, and if you don't need more survivability at that point LW is the item to get. And at any point proceeding to this point, if you need more MR than what you're getting from your mercs + null mantle (GA) then hexdrinker is useful.
Randuin not only scales with your champion design but it also almost guarantees you to kill the AD carry if you have flash up and they don't. IDK, besides BT, GA, and LW, what you build after that really depends on your enemy team and who's the biggest threat at a given time. Hexdrinker (maw) and warden's mail (randuin's) are what I go for.
I second the notion of not getting a 2nd BT before your LW and probably Randuins and or GA, too. Nowadays, I usually go 1 Doran's->Bruta (occasionally, 2 Doran's if I don't)->BT. Up until here, the path is pretty much set, then it depends - sometimes I will rush LW because team compositions and flow of the game allows me to, sometimes I will rush GA, sometimes (especially against Graves/Ez/Trist/Corki) I will straight up get Randuins. Finish whatever you didn't build and end the game with Merc's / BT / BT / LW / GA (or QSS occasionally) / Randuins. I think building Riven is just a matter of reading the game properly and reacting accordingly.
The only health items I'd consider is a randuins, MAYBE phage because its broken but I'm sure it's getting nerfed soon. (425 gold for 8 AD and 45 hp cost effective without the slow l0l)
So... new items on Riven. I'm trying to figure this one out.
New BC seems great, as she likes pretty much all the stats on it aside from health. However, it's not as much flat AD as BT, which means BT will probably be better for her insane ratios. However, maybe as a 2nd damage item? The armor shred looks pretty good, but she needs the AD unlike people with great base damage like Garen or something.
With GA no longer being the defensive powerhouse of S2 (losing 18 Armor and 8 MR), will it still be the defensive Core or do you think moving towards Glacial/Mercurial depending on enemy damage is the new thing to do? Mercurial in particular looks sick good on her (BT and Cleanse? Uh, yesplz).
Hydra probably not, Zephyr would be cool if it wasn't so heavy on AS. Spirit of the Elder Lizard looks pretty good (makes me want to try Jungle Riven more), but laning really doesn't use all the Hunter's Machete bits and the mp5 is kinda wasted.
Why not Frozen Heart? Randuin's doesn't seem as good on her in S3, as it's now Warden's and Giant's belt. I would also rather have Glacial Shroud than Warden's Mail in midgame, since Warden's no longer slows (only AS debuff). Frozen heart, for the same price as Randuin's, gives 20 more Armor and 20% CDR, which with her shield is much better than the 500 health on Randuin's. Randuin's active is good, but you rather don't have an issue with kiting since you're, you know, Riven.
Riven doesn't care about Crit and you're not building health. So you're just buying it for the 45 armor and like 30 AD. I'd rather have the CDR and more armor, honestly.
I like BorK/Mercurial/GA. Good active to extend the combo, gives you some lifesteal and importantly gives you magic damage so you're not utterly countered by armor. Add in BT or sunfire from there, the former if ahead, the latter if behind/getting shot up by ADs or other bruisers.
BT will still be core. It's got the most AD, and you want as much as possible. While I'm not sure about BotRK yet, I'm pretty sure that even with the passive it'd have a hard time making up for having 60 less AD. And the active passive both got switched to physical damage in the latest changes, so no free magic damage from it either.
GA is really not cost effective anymore, you're paying most of the money for the passive. I'm not sure it's a good part of the core.
Sunfire spends too much on health, honestly, and the AoE is really better for tanky people that can sit around and keep it ticking, which you're more go in and burst a squishy to death, unlike Malph or Shen.
BT will still be core. It's got the most AD, and you want as much as possible. While I'm not sure about BotRK yet, I'm pretty sure that even with the passive it'd have a hard time making up for having 60 less AD. And the active passive both got switched to physical damage in the latest changes, so no free magic damage from it either.
GA is really not cost effective anymore, you're paying most of the money for the passive. I'm not sure it's a good part of the core.
Sunfire spends too much on health, honestly, and the AoE is really better for tanky people that can sit around and keep it ticking, which you're more go in and burst a squishy to death, unlike Malph or Shen.
Fair points all. I agree that the BT is still gonna be core, just not sure if it's going to be a rush. Sunfire is valuable on riven because of the magic damage it does. I know it's not much, but every little bit helps when a couple of the enemy team have randuins or thornmail. The really big thing the new items do is more early game potential, you don't really have to wait till 1650 to get that damage spike. Not only is the BF cheaper, but brutaliser is more viable, as is a straight up vamp scepter since it now includes AD. Even avarice blade might be a thing, though I'm not sure how much of one...
Yeah, I could see myself getting an early Bruta now. Maybe I'll grab one instead of double Dorans if I plan on getting a fast BC and/or I don't think I need the health. It's still more expensive than two DBlades, but now it actually has a build path, hallelujah.
Thoughts on Maw vs. Scimitar I think it's still a tossup between Scimitar and Maw depending on what you need. They give similar hard stats so it all comes down to Maw:"Am I getting bursted?" or Scimitar:"Am I dieing because of CC like dark binding." Maw is also a chunk cheaper and matches Scimitar's AD at 87.5% health.
Wardens...wasn't 2 games enough? For early armor, Warden's Mail would probably be the right way to go. Whether or not FH or RO is the way to go, it builds into both, costs less, and a lot of Riven's more difficult matchups get their jollies off of autos. I'm looking at you, Irelier. Which you decide to build into will be a decision that, going Warden's, can be delayed.
On the topic of FH or Randuins assuming lvl 18, standard ad/ad/armor/mr(of some sort), and 21/9/0 masteries
Effective HP Values vs Physical Damage. FH: 5,869.29 RO: 6,746.74 Difference: 877.45
Our Riven can't repel fire of that magnitude! Granted this doesn't account for the shield, which will perform(as EHP) 20% worse with RO. Lets say we have a fight that lasts 20 seconds. We're also going to include the 10% cooldown from Brutaliser/BC for both.
FH picks up 1.6(1 because lower cooldown, .6 because +20% per shield from higher armor.) shields, assuming they all break before expiring. The base shield gain from this is 288, reducing the gap to 589.45. To make up that gap though AD scaling, Riven would need(pre ult and requiring dashing directly after ulting to get all 4 shields) a tad over 307. This requires BT(fully stacked), BC and 23ish AD from another source. Assuming a build of Mercs, BT, BC, RO/FH, Pickaxe: an 11,175 gold cost.
Until then, from a purely tanky perspective, RO gives Riven better physical protection while also making her more burst resistant against magic damage.
Disclamer: I don't do much math anymore and I have an annoying habit of missing something. Feel free to check my math or inquire about what I did where if you feel I done goofed.
Thanks for the math, was a bit too lazy to do it myself.
However, I'll probably still end up going FH over Omen. ~590 EHP is a very noticeable difference, but CDR also grants extra abilities (and therefore passive procs). Tankiness and survivability are necessary for someone who's going to be in melee, but Riven's job isn't necessarily to be the tank. She's primarily a damage dealer, and I guess it comes down to whether
a) Being able to hop around, stun, proc your passive, and have ult up more often or b) surviving ~1-2 more spells/~2-4 more AD autos
is going to allow you to do more damage.
Of course, that also depends on your team. If you have like, Shaco jungle, Soraka support, and a standard mage mid (so not like Galio or Diana), you may want to take Randuin's instead since your team lacks significant bulk. It's also more helpful if your team lacks slows, or if the slow synergizes with your team (i.e. AoE comp).
I do like that both are viable and you have an option of which to take depending on the game. I don't think we'll have a standard "build path" on her anymore, which is cool. BT will still be core, just for the AD, but early items and second "core" item will probably change on a game by game basis.
A note on Maw v Mercurial. I think I like Mercurial more as a pure item (higher stats, cleanse is very strong), but one of the things to note is that Maw has a much nicer build path, in my opinion. Mercurial is nice because you can sit on just QSS or BFS if you need MR and not AD (or vice versa), but Hex is a strong midgame item that gives both and is rather affordable. Rushing Mercurial is probably better if you're getting fed, but I think Maw will be kind of the thing to get in a standard game, especially if you need midgame power that won't wane.
On December 05 2012 00:34 arb wrote: So i'm clear are we talking about getting Frozen Heart on riven?
Yes, Riot still hasn't realized it is one of the strongest items in the game. It's like old Gunblade where it was so strong Riven didn't care about buying the useless stats on it.
On December 05 2012 00:34 arb wrote: So i'm clear are we talking about getting Frozen Heart on riven?
That's the way I'm leaning.
The thing is, GA used to be all the armor you needed aside from maybe Tabi. Now, GA gives a lot less armor, and the cost is more tied into the passive than the defenses. So if you need Armor, you need to look elsewhere.
Your choices are Atma, Sunfire, Randuin, and FH. Sunfire is kind of out, since it's mostly health and the AoE isn't that great on Riven imo. Atma isn't that great since you don't really care about Crit and you're not stacking health for the passive. So in my eyes, it's between Randuin's Omen and Frozen Heart, depending on the situation.
I mean, you could probably still do just GA if you don't need a lot of defenses and save the extra couple hundred gold that goes into Omen or FH, but it's no longer really the single defense item that you get on her and nothing else, I think.
So I've been thinking a bit about masteries in the new season. IMO smth like this should work well in a lot of matchups.
Basically the idea is 1 13 16 or 0 13 17 (flash + ignite), and abuse dorans start + 1 potion from gold mastery + 1 biscuit + 1 free 60 sec ward. IMO dorans start already was very strong in a lot of matchups, it just left you extremely vulnerable to ganks as you basically have to be ready to all-in him all the time which is incredibly abusable.
Basically pressure extremely hard (as you got some really strong lvl 1-2 fight masteries in defense and you are riven with a dorans), constantly going for FB, using ignite as early as possible (summoner cdr mastery + ignite mastery) and relying on your cookie + potion regen to stay in lane for a minute or two. After both of these are gone and your ward is about to expire, you should also almost have him pushed upto his tower, so basically you kill off the wave and go back to buy whatever it is you need in the lane, forcing him to either push back the wave real quickly so he can b (impossible for most champs) or to stay in lane with like no potions left and you just bought.
IMO this can easily result in either FB or forcing him to b (allowing you to also push the wave), it also allows you to go dorans start (which makes it much easier to go b early before you have 475+ gold) and you are not gimping yourself superhard with the masteries. Not sure whether 17 or 16 would be optimal, really will depend on whether the 50 gold or so that the mastery gives you on your first B will be worth it or whether the 5 ad from ignite makes the difference (i.e. you need it to win trades)
Btw, imo this should work on a lot of lvl 1-3 lane bullies, i.e. darius and xin, which used to be extremely vulnerable to ganks
If you want to fight, why would you not get any Offensive Masteries? No Arpen, no CDR, no AD, no extra oomph. 5 less damage on autos isn't worth losing out on shields and hitting harder. Wanderer also sucks in lane, since it's only a MS boost when you're not in combat, which starts on getting hit or hitting a minon/champion. Safeguard is also really iffy, very situational and you shouldn't be the one tanking turrets for more than a shot or two anyway.
Switching points between Hardiness and Resistance based on who I'm laning against. Remember, you don't really value health all that much since you have your shield. Also, Tough Skin is good for trading in lane because you'll block a lot more damage from minions than you think. A single auto from each minion in a wave means you're taking 12 less damage, and you'll take a lot more from ranged minions if you're fighting anywhere near the wave.
Riven is all about AD and killing. You're not a tanky champ, if you want to play her to her best.
Dorans start is good, though, I'll probably either start DBlade or Longsword, unless I need a Cloth or DShield start against an annoying lane.
On December 05 2012 05:18 Requizen wrote: If you want to fight, why would you not get any Offensive Masteries? No Arpen, no CDR, no AD, no extra oomph. 5 less damage on autos isn't worth losing out on shields and hitting harder. Wanderer also sucks in lane, since it's only a MS boost when you're not in combat, which starts on getting hit or hitting a minon/champion. Safeguard is also really iffy, very situational and you shouldn't be the one tanking turrets for more than a shot or two anyway.
Switching points between Hardiness and Resistance based on who I'm laning against. Remember, you don't really value health all that much since you have your shield. Also, Tough Skin is good for trading in lane because you'll block a lot more damage from minions than you think. A single auto from each minion in a wave means you're taking 12 less damage, and you'll take a lot more from ranged minions if you're fighting anywhere near the wave.
Riven is all about AD and killing. You're not a tanky champ, if you want to play her to her best.
Dorans start is good, though, I'll probably either start DBlade or Longsword, unless I need a Cloth or DShield start against an annoying lane.
Are you aware tough skin ONLY affects JUNGLE monsters? Not minions. And perseverence seems iffy. Put those 9 points into the health mastery - Vet scars is as good as it ever was (quite good) especially for early game lane fighting. If you want any flat damage reduction, pick up Unyielding/block (requires 13 points in defense)
Did you even read my post? your going into defensive for the ward (and a bit for the biscuit and the 40g extra). Without these you are completely unable to fight with a dorans blade start, not really an option to propose not getting these because well, then you are just playing standard 21 9 and I would never start dorans then. What I'm saying is that I think 21 9 might or 9 21 might not be optimal at all anymore, 60 second ward early in solo Q is just really really powerful with champs that have very strong early game trades/all-ins. Also, semi-deep offensive doesnt really offer much useful early compared to defensive (assuming 16 points in support) unyielding and block seem pretty strong. Perseverance vs durability and veteran's scars is debatable, but veteran's scars is just a really really strong point. Talking about wanderer and safeguard is a bit stupid as they are obvious placholders, and anyway, wanderer has some use because you only need to get close to him with riven, same as how boots of mobility are very good on junglers not only for getting around the map but also for getting next to heroes. Safeguard is just a good investment for 1 point, taking into account what riven does in a game, I dont really see anything else thats worth that
Yeah, it's a huge change for top lane. I think you are also completely underestimating how strong veteran's scar is for early game trades, which is what Riven's laning excels at. Because of the disappearance of indomintable and the change in tough skin, I don't see a whole lot of reason to go 19/11/0 anymore.
On December 05 2012 05:18 Requizen wrote: If you want to fight, why would you not get any Offensive Masteries? No Arpen, no CDR, no AD, no extra oomph. 5 less damage on autos isn't worth losing out on shields and hitting harder. Wanderer also sucks in lane, since it's only a MS boost when you're not in combat, which starts on getting hit or hitting a minon/champion. Safeguard is also really iffy, very situational and you shouldn't be the one tanking turrets for more than a shot or two anyway.
Switching points between Hardiness and Resistance based on who I'm laning against. Remember, you don't really value health all that much since you have your shield. Also, Tough Skin is good for trading in lane because you'll block a lot more damage from minions than you think. A single auto from each minion in a wave means you're taking 12 less damage, and you'll take a lot more from ranged minions if you're fighting anywhere near the wave.
Riven is all about AD and killing. You're not a tanky champ, if you want to play her to her best.
Dorans start is good, though, I'll probably either start DBlade or Longsword, unless I need a Cloth or DShield start against an annoying lane.
Are you aware tough skin ONLY affects JUNGLE monsters? Not minions. And perseverence seems iffy. Put those 9 points into the health mastery - Vet scars is as good as it ever was (quite good) especially for early game lane fighting. If you want any flat damage reduction, pick up Unyielding/block (requires 13 points in defense)
Oh, I did misread that. I'd put it into health, sure. I may be overestimating Perseverance's power, as it doesn't have any numbers tied to it.
I still think missing out on deep offensive is a bit of a waste. Veteran's Scars and Durability? Sure, I can see that, but missing out on Sunder and Executioner for 5 damage blocked (which will start to fall off as ADs get more a couple items, well before you start dueling them) seems a bit of a waste.
On December 05 2012 07:08 koreasilver wrote: Why would you not be trading in lane before you get items. You're playing Riven.
I meant against AD carries, as in "by the time you fight the enemy ADC, they're going to have enough damage that they won't really care about you blocking 5 of it".
I could see taking Unyeilding against someone like Xin/Fiora/etc that's going to be high auto attack in lane, but that's not every enemy champion.
Currently running 21/9/0 masteries, starting Boots 3 or Dblade if an easy matchup(singed).
Strong trading power, haven't needed the ward or biscuit from utility as 3pots gives enough regen for me and if a level 2 gank is a possibility I just play more passive and let them push. Maxing Q>W>E>R.
As far as items, yesterday I went Boots->2x dblade->brut->vamp->BT->BC and was absolutely destroying anyone who got near me. Game ended at this point, but I most likely would have gone Mercurial and a LW if heavy armor or 2nd BT if squishy after.
I tried out 1/13/16 and didn't really like it. Vs matchups you could abuse by starting dorans, you don't need the safety of biscuit+ward because you can just play safe at the timings the jungler would be top before first buy and otherwise dominate them anyways
Not having the 8% ArPen is actually quite noticeable in early trades: I'd rather start sword 2 pots and have better masteries
The flash CDR is nice, but ArPen is just too good, and the other 8 points in utility are pretty much wasted filler (don't need gp10 to stomp people, idle movespeed not awesome anymore)
On January 12 2014 20:32 a13ph wrote: Why is she banned so often nowadays? Is that Renekton/Shyvana/Mundo related?
No, Shyvana and Renekton are actually good picks against Riven. (Mundo isn't). Riven has been banned a lot for quite some time now, she's just "too good" in a sense. Mobile, very high damage and even after the combo she can just get away. If she gets a slight advantage there's not much you can do to stop her anymore. I think the general consensus is that her E shield might need a nerf so she's still a fun assassin, just a bit more killable.
As someone who mained her to Diamond, I feel like her laning phase is much, much weaker. I think a sufficient nerf to her trading power would have been increased CD on shield with lower duration perhaps, but the damage nerf is pretty noticeable. Her endgame is still strong IMO, but it's rough getting there on a "snowbally" champ especially vs the current top laners.
So far what I've noticed is that in early-midgame team fights she feels a lot squishier with the shorter shield duration. I almost feel like you need to itemize defense earlier now, but I'm not sure how to do so without cutting into her damage, and I definitely prefer lucidity boots if possible. Maybe an earlier finish of BC from the bruta after Hydra? Though I suppose the 200 health isn't going to make such of a difference. Doing something like GA or Spirit Visage feels ideal but delays Last Whisper longer than I'd like. Hmm.
On January 24 2014 04:20 Mondeezy wrote: Any thoughts on Riven post-nerf?
As someone who mained her to Diamond, I feel like her laning phase is much, much weaker. I think a sufficient nerf to her trading power would have been increased CD on shield with lower duration perhaps, but the damage nerf is pretty noticeable. Her endgame is still strong IMO, but it's rough getting there on a "snowbally" champ especially vs the current top laners.
Definitely feel the early game hurt. Lategame I don't really see a difference damage wise.
Ehh.. I feel like the Riven OP was a bit exaggerated. She's definitely really strong in small skirmishes, but there are tons of champs that snowball harder and have more relevance in team fights in my opinion.
On January 24 2014 04:20 Mondeezy wrote: Any thoughts on Riven post-nerf?
As someone who mained her to Diamond, I feel like her laning phase is much, much weaker. I think a sufficient nerf to her trading power would have been increased CD on shield with lower duration perhaps, but the damage nerf is pretty noticeable. Her endgame is still strong IMO, but it's rough getting there on a "snowbally" champ especially vs the current top laners.
Definitely feel the early game hurt. Lategame I don't really see a difference damage wise.
Ehh.. I feel like the Riven OP was a bit exaggerated. She's definitely really strong in small skirmishes, but there are tons of champs that snowball harder and have more relevance in team fights in my opinion.
There is a big difference, riven had little to no counterplay when snowballing and was hard to shut down. For the following reasons: 1. 4 dashes, aoe stun and shield, everything on low CD. For instance other snowbally champions like fizz/zed are pretty easy to shut down with a coordinated team, you chain your CC and thats it, one long cd escape won't save them in every situation. 2. Riven is a top lane champion, and enemy team doesn't generally waste their CC on toplane champions like rene, mundo, shyv, since there are higher priority targets like Mid carry and ADC. Therefore Riven gets even more snowballing potential, since there isn't enough CC to shut her down. 3. Itemization. The more damage you build, the tankier you get. Epitome of snowballing.
So yeah, nerf was justified. But the way it was done is questionable.
I took riven for a spin today. Most broken champ in the whole game. Insane damage, stun, free 500 shield every 4.5 second & impossible to catch if by some miracle she loses a trade. Can go 1v3 and not even break a sweat mid/late game. If you want free elo pick her up. Only thing you can do against her is chain cc until she's dead.
I did face a really bad riven yesterday. I was thresh and hook flay ulti ignited her under turret. She had to run and I couldn't catch but was so close she died =) Any other non tank would have died for sure in that situation.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/k8RQU.png)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZfBl2.jpg)
