EPT[Champion] Riven - Page 16
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 09 2011 13:34 deth2munkies wrote: Hexdrinker is worth the slot if they have 2 AP carries or AP support/AP carry/Hybrid dps (Nid/Akali for example) or even if they have 1 extremely fed AP carry (solo queue). The shield will serve you until you finish GA. Also if it goes THAT late, sell wriggles for another BT. I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD. | ||
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chocolatebunny
301 Posts
On December 09 2011 18:16 TheYango wrote: I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD. there is that shield. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Edit: Also. I'm never jungling Riven again anymore, it's so lame. Gold feels so scarce, leveling is so slow, and it's just not worth it, especially if they have a good jungler of their own. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On December 09 2011 18:16 TheYango wrote: I have a hard time justifying Hexdrinker over QSS. The survivability gain is roughly the same, and the cleanse active is WAY better than 35 more AD. QSS is better against CC heavy teams, if they have WW/Malz/etc, although I have run it against teams with multiple exhausts when I'm the only real carry, but that's solo queue stuff. If they're just using AP carries like Ryze/Annie/Karthus/Cass, you're better off with Hexdrinker. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
And QSS has 20 more MR--which translates into more magic damage mitigated than the shield unless you're at pretty high MR values (Riven won't be). As a reasonable example, suppose you have ~100 MR before Hexdrinker (reasonable with base + GA + Mercs + runes). Then Hexdrinker gives you 130 MR + 300 magic damage shield while QSS gives you 150 MR. With Hexdrinker you take 8.6% more damage, which means that QSS gives equal EHP at 3450 HP. You have 2k base HP at level 18, meaning you effectively have more than 3450 HP if you get 3-4 Es off in a fight, or 2 Es + GA proc--these two scenarios together probably make up the majority of proper teamfight scenarios, meaning that QSS mitigates more magic damage in most cases, even factoring in the shield. On December 10 2011 01:10 deth2munkies wrote: QSS is better against CC heavy teams, if they have WW/Malz/etc. If they're just using AP carries like Ryze/Annie/Karthus/Cass, you're better off with Hexdrinker. Why? Do you really miss 35 damage that much? Even if QSS is only being used to shake an Exhaust, it's still probably worth more than the extra Hexdrinker damage. Any team that knows what they're doing will save a stun or Exhaust for you, even if they're CC-starved and don't have that many of them, because of your priority as a damage threat lategame. It doesn't matter how much CC they have--QSS is still going to get rid of one stun/snare/Exhaust. Unless you expect to never get hit with any of those (and Riven is a melee champ that's a huge damage threat--you have to be retarded NOT to use those on her), QSS is still going to have similar value. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Deltablazy
Canada580 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On December 10 2011 01:22 TheYango wrote: And QSS has 20 more MR--which translates into more magic damage mitigated than the shield unless you're at pretty high MR values (Riven won't be). As a reasonable example, suppose you have ~100 MR before Hexdrinker (reasonable with base + GA + Mercs + runes). Then Hexdrinker gives you 130 MR + 300 magic damage shield while QSS gives you 150 MR. With Hexdrinker you take 8.6% more damage, which means that QSS gives equal EHP at 3450 HP. You have 2k base HP at level 18, meaning you effectively have more than 3450 HP if you get 3-4 Es off in a fight, or 2 Es + GA proc--these two scenarios together probably make up the majority of proper teamfight scenarios, meaning that QSS mitigates more magic damage in most cases, even factoring in the shield. Why? Do you really miss 35 damage that much? Even if QSS is only being used to shake an Exhaust, it's still probably worth more than the extra Hexdrinker damage. Any team that knows what they're doing will save a stun or Exhaust for you, even if they're CC-starved and don't have that many of them, because of your priority as a damage threat lategame. It doesn't matter how much CC they have--QSS is still going to get rid of one stun/snare/Exhaust. Unless you expect to never get hit with any of those (and Riven is a melee champ that's a huge damage threat--you have to be retarded NOT to use those on her), QSS is still going to have similar value. Remember that 35 damage + 20% from the ult = 42 damage total, that also buffs your shield. It's mostly the shield. While QSS does prevent more damage in longer teamfights, most are decided by the initial wave of burst when the heroes I mentioned are present, and the hexdrinker shield can help you live through multiple CCs. The extra damage is just icing, but it does put you consistently over 300 much earlier, which is a crapton of damage. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22696 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On December 10 2011 04:15 Gorsameth wrote: Played riven a bit since shes free this week but how do you beat an udyr. had a few times now that he starts tiger and harass from the start and i cant trade with him so i just get zoned the entire time. Survive. Neither of you have poke, you have a minor CC and high mobility, he just runs and autos. Just focus on last hitting and you outscale him so hard that it's not funny. If he goes on you, get some damage off, stun, and shield the dot damage. | ||
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getpicture
141 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:16 getpicture wrote: cooldown boots, 2 xbloodthirsters , 1 warmogs 1 black cleaver. expensive build but never lost with it. with max stacks you have +1370 life, +250 damage, some armor shred, +30 attack speed, some armor shred, +50lifesteal, and 15% cdr. I think the main weird thing is that you have a black cleaver... like I don't get why you want the attack speed or armor shred if you've already decided not to autoattack. In addition, you're very stack dependent. That means if you're better than your opponents your items are cost effective, and if you aren't then you'll keep losing stacks or not gain enough of them. I could never justify being too stack dependent since if I could keep my stacks up, my opponents sucked, and I would win anyways, and if I couldn't keep my stacks up, I would want more consistent items. Like do you keep a bf sword for as long as possible? Or do you make it into a bloodthirster as long as possible? I guess you kinda have to go bloodthirster for characters like riven who need the AD. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
BC is just bad though. And if you're really going to go warmogs on riven for some godforsaken reason, I'd rather just get an atmas at that point. But this is bad and you should stop doing it. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:21 deth2munkies wrote: Remember that 35 damage + 20% from the ult = 42 damage total, that also buffs your shield. It's mostly the shield. While QSS does prevent more damage in longer teamfights, most are decided by the initial wave of burst when the heroes I mentioned are present, and the hexdrinker shield can help you live through multiple CCs. The extra damage is just icing, but it does put you consistently over 300 much earlier, which is a crapton of damage. Wait, you're arguing that Hexdrinker is better against burst than QSS? When burst usually comes with CC, and QSS lets you, you know, disengage from a CC chain and potentially re-enter the fight a few seconds later with your healing and shielding to top yourself off? Vs. Karthus/Cassi/Ryze, being able to drop a stun/Exhaust and disengage from their Q-spam/incidental AoE mitigates more damage than a measly 300 damage shield--hell getting away from 1 Karthus Q and out of his E 1 second sooner is already more than 300 damage avoided lategame. Like I showed, you only need 3-4 shields or 2 shields + GA for the MR on QSS to be better than Hexdrinker's shield. If you're having trouble fitting 3-4 shields into a teamfight (or 2 + GA if you get focused early), you have bigger issues in your Riven play than your item selection. And again, even factoring in the multiplier, not being able to cleanse an Exhaust or sitting out a stun loses you WAY more damage than 35 AD is worth. On December 11 2011 15:16 getpicture wrote: cooldown boots, 2 xbloodthirsters , 1 warmogs 1 black cleaver. expensive build but never lost with it. GA is straight-up a better survivability item than Warmog's for Riven. You get so much free effective HP from her shield that you want to heavily favor resists, and you don''t need the HP regen from Warmog's when you have so much lifesteal already giving you sustainability. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 12 2011 08:26 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: It's clearly situational. Some games will be hexdrinker and some games will be qss. And pray tell, what situations would you actually buy Hexdrinker? Vs. burst damage, QSS is better because it lets you cleanse and disengage. Vs. sustained damage QSS is way better because of the superior resists. If you're in an early-game situation where you can't really rush big items but need the damage and survivability from small components (the situation where it comes up for other champs), Riven still would rather turn 2 Longswords + Null-magic Mantle into Bruta + GA. Likewise, if you're in a later-game situation, Hexdrinker is only marginally better than buying Pickaxe + Negatron, and Pickaxe + Negatron turns into QSS + LW, rather than being a dead end. | ||
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Lokrium
United States131 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
QSS > hexdrinker, but i wouldn't get either of them unless they're ridiculously magic heavy. in extended fights the active on qss combined with multiple e's will get you more protection than the puny shield on hexdrinker would (your e protects more after getting a BT and some levels on e). the thing is in this game mobility and disengaging translate directly into avoided damage, just like dodge and spellshields, because if you're out of range or out of a cc chain and out of focus, that is damage that they can't put onto you and must relate onto someone else or be inefficient and save for you later when you come back into range and thus lose DPS. thus why kassadin is so powerful as a carry after he gets rolling because his kit gives him too much mobility to shut down and thus forces the opponent team to either play inefficiently or risk getting their squishies gibbed or their channels interrupted. i've never ever had a problem with mercs and the null from GA midgame, and lategame with lifesteal and e have never ever had a problem against casters (use my teammates as meat shields wisely). 100 MR is sufficient for most comps unless they're running some triple AP (jungle top mid or something weird) in which case i would just grab the negatron and complete the qss whenever i felt i needed it | ||
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