|
On December 12 2011 08:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 08:26 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
It's clearly situational. Some games will be hexdrinker and some games will be qss. And pray tell, what situations would you actually buy Hexdrinker? Vs. burst damage, QSS is better because it lets you cleanse and disengage. Vs. sustained damage QSS is way better because of the superior resists. If you're in an early-game situation where you can't really rush big items but need the damage and survivability from small components (the situation where it comes up for other champs), Riven still would rather turn 2 Longswords + Null-magic Mantle into Bruta + GA. Likewise, if you're in a later-game situation, Hexdrinker is only marginally better than buying Pickaxe + Negatron, and Pickaxe + Negatron turns into QSS + LW, rather than being a dead end.
Karthus ults you at 400 hp. oh thank god i bought a hexdrinker
|
Oh thank god i used my e and had enough MRes for the e to completely shield it
~
|
On December 12 2011 12:48 Navi wrote:
Oh thank god i used my e and had enough MRes for the e to completely shield it
~
my point still stands. you have 50 hp and run away alive
|
It's a mid-tier item that's gives you slight damage + a temporary hp buffer, which means it's better on champs that already have a decent amount of MR/some type of damage mitigation (garen's w for instance) and need some damage too for a midgame fight.
For a champ like riven, who already has a shield, additional armor + MR is simply better, and you should get damage from real damage items, not a mid-tier hybrid item like hexdrinker.
|
I dont like hexdrinker on Riven 'cuase hexdrinker is strictly a midgame item when Riven is an early and late game beast. Why itemize for midgame when you should just be either a. rolling face already or b. afk farming.
|
hexdrinker is a nice first item against primarily magic dmg opponents as an AD. Getting 2 dblades + hexdrinker vs an AP mid as pantheon, for example, is something i do every once in awhile, and then just skip bruta and go for bloodthirster from there. It's a pretty sexy cheese that will often catch ppl off guard, but i wouldn't use it under any other context.
|
Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
On December 12 2011 14:08 barbsq wrote:
hexdrinker is a nice first item against primarily magic dmg opponents as an AD. Getting 2 dblades + hexdrinker vs an AP mid as pantheon, for example, is something i do every once in awhile, and then just skip bruta and go for bloodthirster from there. It's a pretty sexy cheese that will often catch ppl off guard, but i wouldn't use it under any other context.
I can't think of a time I got Hexdrinker first. That said, I will get Hexdrinker if I feel we have a shot at winning in the mid game, and their team has a lot of magic damage. I mean they would need to have magic damage on at least 4 guys, but junglers like udyr and shyv do magic damage, MF/Trist/Ez all have sorces of magic damage, 95% of mid laners are scaling their ap, even some top laners like nassus/gp/ww all have some source of magic damage. The build would look something like 2 dorans or wriggles (depending upon the match up), brutalizer, hex drinker, agesis, and boots in there. The problem with doing this is if you end up going into a late game you're putting you self behind as you're going to need to sell the mid game items in favor of BT's, which puts you behind from where you would have been just going strait for BT's. If your team has a lot of mid game scaling champs, like Ez, Zilean, Nunu. It makes sense to try to end the game earlier when they're at their strongest.
|
On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote:
Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin.
SotO is nvr a reliable item to buy
|
I play at fairly low level and every Riven I play with on free Riven week feeds super hard. Like probably 10 in a row going like 0/10 and ridiculously bad scores like that. WHY?!
|
On December 12 2011 23:20 chocolatebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote:
Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin. SotO is nvr a reliable item to buy
i think he means sotd, kus he says start with dagger and potion, which would be weird kus it doesn't build into any of the items he lists, and SotO and SotD are very often confused
edit:
On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote:Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin. Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 14:08 barbsq wrote:
hexdrinker is a nice first item against primarily magic dmg opponents as an AD. Getting 2 dblades + hexdrinker vs an AP mid as pantheon, for example, is something i do every once in awhile, and then just skip bruta and go for bloodthirster from there. It's a pretty sexy cheese that will often catch ppl off guard, but i wouldn't use it under any other context. I can't think of a time I got Hexdrinker first. That said, I will get Hexdrinker if I feel we have a shot at winning in the mid game, and their team has a lot of magic damage. I mean they would need to have magic damage on at least 4 guys, but junglers like udyr and shyv do magic damage, MF/Trist/Ez all have sorces of magic damage, 95% of mid laners are scaling their ap, even some top laners like nassus/gp/ww all have some source of magic damage. The build would look something like 2 dorans or wriggles (depending upon the match up), brutalizer, hex drinker, agesis, and boots in there. The problem with doing this is if you end up going into a late game you're putting you self behind as you're going to need to sell the mid game items in favor of BT's, which puts you behind from where you would have been just going strait for BT's. If your team has a lot of mid game scaling champs, like Ez, Zilean, Nunu. It makes sense to try to end the game earlier when they're at their strongest.
i think you missed the point, hexdrinker is not an item i get for midgame or for any reason other than simply as a pure counterpick to crush my lane very early on, so it doesn't matter what the rest of the team is made of, only your lane opponent. in fact, i wouldn't even recommend getting brutalizer before it, because by that time, it would be too late to really press its advantages. It's also a bit cute vs karthus and garen (tho not necessarily good). It's a really niche item choice, that i buy every once in awhile, because it's stronger in the laning phase than qss is (imo). Nearly all other situations tho, qss will be 100x better.
|
On December 13 2011 01:15 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:20 chocolatebunny wrote:On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote:
Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin. SotO is nvr a reliable item to buy i think he means sotd, kus he says start with dagger and potion, which would be weird kus it doesn't build into any of the items he lists, and SotO and SotD are very often confused
either way I don't think it's a very good build. Sword of the Divine is pretty niche and in 90% of cases I'd rather get a phantom dancer or last whisper.
|
My bad start longsword one pot. I was just really upset at all the feeders, ragers, leavers I had in the previous games. So I went SotO first, ended the game 25-3-10 and I was one of two people in the entire game with a positive score. In a side note, Longsword should be called dagger because it looks like a dagger, and dagger should be called light saber because it looks like a light saber.
|
On December 13 2011 01:20 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:15 barbsq wrote:On December 12 2011 23:20 chocolatebunny wrote:On December 12 2011 23:07 Sabin010 wrote:
Ultimate late game build is Sword of The occult, Blood thirster, Merc's, GA, IE, BT. Start with the dagger and a potion, or cloth 5 pot, or boots 3 pot, and let the snowballing begin. SotO is nvr a reliable item to buy i think he means sotd, kus he says start with dagger and potion, which would be weird kus it doesn't build into any of the items he lists, and SotO and SotD are very often confused either way I don't think it's a very good build. Sword of the Divine is pretty niche and in 90% of cases I'd rather get a phantom dancer or last whisper.
yeah, i agree. sotd is strong against jax and low armor targets, and while jax comes to top every once in awhile, low armor targets almost never do.
|
How are people doing Jungle Riven nowadays? I keep trying her like I did pre-jungle changes, but it fails horribly.
|
On December 12 2011 14:07 Ryuu314 wrote:
I dont like hexdrinker on Riven 'cuase hexdrinker is strictly a midgame item when Riven is an early and late game beast. Why itemize for midgame when you should just be either a. rolling face already or b. afk farming.
That's really stupid reasoning most games end before the lategame and if you are already so strong lategame why not buy it so you stay on longer in midgame? Anyway, hexdrinker is a "midgame item" only in terms of "not that strong for the slot if you're full items" and "doesn't scale with lategame for AD carries". You're not an AD carry, who relies on crit for lategame damage. You're a bruiser and you scale mostly off AD, so an item that gives you AD and mr is great when you want MR.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 13 2011 03:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 14:07 Ryuu314 wrote:
I dont like hexdrinker on Riven 'cuase hexdrinker is strictly a midgame item when Riven is an early and late game beast. Why itemize for midgame when you should just be either a. rolling face already or b. afk farming. That's really stupid reasoning most games end before the lategame and if you are already so strong lategame why not buy it so you stay on longer in midgame? Anyway, hexdrinker is a "midgame item" only in terms of "not that strong for the slot if you're full items" and "doesn't scale with lategame for AD carries". You're not an AD carry, who relies on crit for lategame damage. You're a bruiser and you scale mostly off AD, so an item that gives you AD and mr is great when you want MR.
1) If you're buying midgame teamfight items, you expect to teamfight with them. The thing is Hexdrinker is at its strongest during a period where you don't want to be teamfighting. It's best at the point in the game where you're saving for your BT/GA, and Hexdrinker isn't worth spending the gold on if you're just going to be split-pushing and farming at that point in the game. Throwing yourself into fights at that stage of the game has the potential to just set you back on farm if thing's go poorly, because it's arguably the point in the game where you're weakest--you've passed your period of oppressive lane dominance, and haven't farmed the big items you need to become a teamfight monster. With such a good lategame, it's much more stable to sit back and secure your lategame development at that stage of the game, rather than trying to force yourself to fight during a period of the game when you're not strong.
2) Hexdrinker is not that good compared to big ticket MR/AD items. As shown last page, QSS is much more reliable for doing Hexdrinker's job of keeping you in the fight against magic damage, and BT/IEdge are obviously more cost-effective AD sources. Hexdrinker is aimed toward AD casters midgame who can't afford to miss their prime-time trying to farm up Negatron Cloaks and BF Swords for the bigger and better AD/MR items--so they finish Hexdrinker to get into the action quickly. That's not Riven's prime-time to begin with, so she's not missing out on anything using that time to farm items that are ultimately better than Hexdrinker.
|
like what do people even think riven's "lategame" and strong points are? She's strong earlygame, midgame/lategame (whatever you describe these as because I don't know what point you guys are thinking of), super lategame.
the biggest lull in riven's strength is when she's saving for her first BF sword / item, no doubt. lots of toplaners with high base damage on skills or natural tankiness and disruption (udyr, irelia, etc... ) are stronger than her in teamfights at this point if neither has decidedly won the lane. after she completes the sword and from there to the time when she has BT and/or GA (or GA parts) she is on par with them in damage. after she completes BT and/or GA she's stronger than the majority of similarly farmed toplaners and continues to be if she continues to farm up (i consider this to be her "midgame" because 5600 gold is not too hard to get by a reasonable time if you farm well, that's just my definition for it)
as yango says, i don't see where you would want to put in hexdrinker in any of these stages. if you put it in before you get your first BF sword, you would only be able to keep up with other toplaner's strength in teamfights, and are just delaying the point where you finish your first BT and outdamage them in teamfights. If you grab it after you get your BF sword instead of completing your BT, I have nothing to say to you. if you get it after you get BT and GA, i mean i guess you could get it because by that point you should be destroying them regardless, but for that money you could grab pickaxe and a negatron cloak and have similar survivability + damage increase while building towards items that scale so much better into the lategame (the cleanse active and LW passive are so, so, so much better than the mediocre AD and small shield that hexdrinker gives you) or just buy a BF sword for another BT or iedge (i still have never experienced the need to get a negatron cloak in almost any of my games as riven, if you're eating full AP comboes you're doing something wrong in the first place or they're playing in such a way that your teammates should be able to wreck them, i.e. saving spells just for you so that your teammates can wreck them in the meanwhile)
lastly, for emphasis. When would you want a 300 damage shield on a item that costs 1800 gold when you as a champion have a shield that shields 300+ HP with a BT alone on a 6 second cooldown? combine that with guardian angel and i see very few to no circumstances that another BF sword would not be just as or more helpful as well as not building into kickass items in the very nearby future. whether or not it is good on champions that don't have such an abusable low CD shield, that's up for you to decide. but we're talking about riven. this is the last time i'm gonna type about hexdrinker, if you want it get it. i sure won't.
|
How do you guys use riven in teamfights? I've been playing riven on and off and do extremely well in lane (up 2 or 3 kills with cs advantage), but whenever i enter team fights, I get cc-ed and bursted down pretty fast. If I build tanky, I make very little impact in terms of damage, if I build damage, I die immediately. Do you play riven as a bruiser to initiate and soak damage or more of an ad carry/cleanup guy?
|
damage and cleanup, if i had to choose between one of those two, but more finesse involved. building damage makes it so that you dont want to eat initiation damage from the enemy team unless you're ridiculously fed and have your GA completed absurdly early, so just output damage whenever you can and let your shield absorb as much damage as possible. if you have another strong tanky midgame threat (irelia, olaf, karthus (well i say tanky but karthus is unique), amumu, nocturne, whatever, go in slightly behind them and see how they react. if people try to 5 man jump you let the other person and your ad and ap pound on them, and pull back with q and e if either is up, and they will get destroyed. if they commit any significant cc to your teammates go in and kill them.
|
If you're going to buy hexdrinker, you're not getting BT. You're getting wriggles/hexdrinker/phage, maybe mallet, atmas, maybe a GA, that kind of things. BT isn't really strong its not a game where you can sit top and farm stacks. If teamfights start early maybe because of dragon sitting waiting for that BF sword of BT kinda hurts.
I always do really well with riven in teamfights. You have like 2 free flashes along with your actual flash its absurd. You do damage on their front line from a safe distance or go in if they are committing to your squishies.
BT GA kicks in faster than atmogs but it sure as hell isn't quicker to complete and still relies on stacking.
Also, can riven with wriggles and BF sword still lane against an udyr/irelia with lots of armour and wriggles as well? I was assuming that kind of situation when you'd choose to get smaller items when you can't farm for long durations to save up money.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
