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On May 08 2012 01:24 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote:
Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf? Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day. You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole. I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth.
rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek.
GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming.
GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid.
As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even.
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On May 07 2012 14:24 Lancer723 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 13:35 affinity wrote:
I think how ult->stun works is when the ult is casting, you can queue up another skill. What I mean by the "skill casting" is when you use the ult, the bar first fills up, then depletes - as it's depleting, if you cast W on a valid target, it'll queue up the W. I think this also means queuing up a spear for weak targets or hss for entering a fight late might be possible. I always thought of it simply that the game register Pantheon as having landed as soon as the landing animation starts, meaning you can stun as the explosion animation is still happening.
Oh, I think you may be right! One time I tried hail-mary stealing baron by through ult but got stunned by veigar while in the air.. 
Also agree that Smash #1 guide maker. Been trying to pick up some other champs during their free weeks but the information in other champ threads is nowhere close to how much is in this thread.
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So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now?
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On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote:
So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now?
Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team.
I guess what I'm saying is 2 things:
1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane
2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame
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Yeah I'm sorry SmashGizmo, I'm sorta new here, so you've probably covered some of the stuff before.
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On May 18 2012 05:47 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote:
So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now? Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team. I guess what I'm saying is 2 things: 1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane 2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame
Out of curiosity Smash, do you have any replays of Pantheon vs Riven? In my low level experience I always roll over Pantheon as Riven, and my buddy who plays Panth/Teemo exclusively is always complaining about how Riven wrecks his day as Panth specifically.
I know Panth beats and Zones Riven pretty hard early on, but as a Riven player I feel like once you hit 4/5 Riven starts to pull ahead because you can easily shield spears and dance your way out of HSS. Hell, Goldfather8 calls the lane from Rivens perspective "surprisingly easy, just shield his spears and watch him run out of mana" and says Riven can kill Panth at pretty well anytime during the lane.
I confused.
<_<
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On May 08 2012 01:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 01:24 koreasilver wrote:On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote:
Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf? Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day. You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole. I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth. rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek. GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming. GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid. As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even.
This is just math but 360 life every 18 seconds isn't enough to heal all of panth's spears. If panth hits for 180 damage on each spear, and he throws two spears every 8 seconds then he can eat through the heal in 8 seconds. Yeah gp can sit out of spear range, but as long as panth doesn't run out of mana, he can trade effectively enough such that one of them has to leave lane.
Nunu heals for 345 every 10 seconds for 60 mana. I've beaten panth as max Q nunu but he brought me pretty low too, and with chalice and mana regen runes on both sides the fight probably comes down to skill rather than defensiveness being stronger.
At the very least it isn't that clear who wins in lane, especially with jungler intervention.
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On May 18 2012 11:10 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 05:47 Mogwai wrote:On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote:
So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now? Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team. I guess what I'm saying is 2 things: 1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane 2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame Out of curiosity Smash, do you have any replays of Pantheon vs Riven? In my low level experience I always roll over Pantheon as Riven, and my buddy who plays Panth/Teemo exclusively is always complaining about how Riven wrecks his day as Panth specifically. I know Panth beats and Zones Riven pretty hard early on, but as a Riven player I feel like once you hit 4/5 Riven starts to pull ahead because you can easily shield spears and dance your way out of HSS. Hell, Goldfather8 calls the lane from Rivens perspective "surprisingly easy, just shield his spears and watch him run out of mana" and says Riven can kill Panth at pretty well anytime during the lane. I confused. <_<
Here's a VOD on his twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/304860801
Not sure if the rivens are any good but smash stomps them really hard in lane.
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On May 18 2012 11:10 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 05:47 Mogwai wrote:On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote:
So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now? Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team. I guess what I'm saying is 2 things: 1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane 2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame Out of curiosity Smash, do you have any replays of Pantheon vs Riven? In my low level experience I always roll over Pantheon as Riven, and my buddy who plays Panth/Teemo exclusively is always complaining about how Riven wrecks his day as Panth specifically. I know Panth beats and Zones Riven pretty hard early on, but as a Riven player I feel like once you hit 4/5 Riven starts to pull ahead because you can easily shield spears and dance your way out of HSS. Hell, Goldfather8 calls the lane from Rivens perspective "surprisingly easy, just shield his spears and watch him run out of mana" and says Riven can kill Panth at pretty well anytime during the lane. I confused. <_<
I'm pretty sure I've beaten goldfather b4 <_<.
On May 18 2012 11:44 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 01:46 Mogwai wrote:On May 08 2012 01:24 koreasilver wrote:On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote:
Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf? Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day. You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole. I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth. rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek. GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming. GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid. As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even. This is just math but 360 life every 18 seconds isn't enough to heal all of panth's spears. If panth hits for 180 damage on each spear, and he throws two spears every 8 seconds then he can eat through the heal in 8 seconds. Yeah gp can sit out of spear range, but as long as panth doesn't run out of mana, he can trade effectively enough such that one of them has to leave lane. Nunu heals for 345 every 10 seconds for 60 mana. I've beaten panth as max Q nunu but he brought me pretty low too, and with chalice and mana regen runes on both sides the fight probably comes down to skill rather than defensiveness being stronger. At the very least it isn't that clear who wins in lane, especially with jungler intervention.
it's a matter of mana and scaling. nunu can eventually win the lane, but he scales like ass, so you lose in the long run anyway. the gp vs. pantheon matchup isn't about CDR bottlenecks, it's about mana bottlenecks and pantheon just can't keep up with remove scurvy's mana efficiency. GP wins the lane by attrition, not by conventional like, getting up in CS or kills. You usually lose in CS with Gp, but can build gold/10s and stay alive and match/beat his global presence + scaling.
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Pantheon's Q outdamage's Riven's E, since Panth maxes Q first and Riven maxes E second. Also the cooldown difference is huge.
Using HSS against a Riven is pretty stupid since she can easily interrupt it, along with the fact that HSS isn't that strong until you get items. On Pantheon, I sorta see HSS as the equivalent of Akali's Crescent Slash earlygame: can help you push a bit and give you some supplemental DPS in ganking/laning, but pretty much a waste of mana/energy otherwise.
Except that when Pantheon gets AD, HSS becomes hella beast. Akali's Crescent Slash remains poor because of Energy constraints.
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About the Riven VOD: she's bad, she tried to trade with Panth at level 1. 
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On May 18 2012 16:17 HughMyron wrote:
Pantheon's Q outdamage's Riven's E, since Panth maxes Q first and Riven maxes E second. Also the cooldown difference is huge.
Using HSS against a Riven is pretty stupid since she can easily interrupt it, along with the fact that HSS isn't that strong until you get items. On Pantheon, I sorta see HSS as the equivalent of Akali's Crescent Slash earlygame: can help you push a bit and give you some supplemental DPS in ganking/laning, but pretty much a waste of mana/energy otherwise.
Except that when Pantheon gets AD, HSS becomes hella beast. Akali's Crescent Slash remains poor because of Energy constraints.
Rivens who are good at the lane max E over W. Beating a Riven who's maxing W in lane with Pantheon is like shooting fish in a barrel. Against E max Riven, the lane can get annoying, but I've still won the lane pretty much every time I haven't gotten completely camped.
HSS gets good vs. Riven after your brutalizer. Even though it's still not up to great mana efficiency @ that point (only level 2 or 3 HSS at that point), it gives you another way to put damage on from over Melee Range, which you need in order to make noticeable damage stick through her shield.
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Hey Smash, I've noticed while watching your stream that when your lane opponent goes heavy armor (usually a chain vest) you tend to skip the brutalizer and go straight for your bloodthirster. Why is that? Is the bruta just more of a lane domination item, and you're better off powering up a BT if you're not going to be able to outright kill them?
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On May 19 2012 04:07 Node wrote:
Hey Smash, I've noticed while watching your stream that when your lane opponent goes heavy armor (usually a chain vest) you tend to skip the brutalizer and go straight for your bloodthirster. Why is that? Is the bruta just more of a lane domination item, and you're better off powering up a BT if you're not going to be able to outright kill them?
Brut is good vs low armor targets because it's flat arpen. When your opponent gets a chain vest, you can be much more reliable on getting a BT cus of your % arp mastery and then eventually get LW.
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If the opponent is doing something stupid and has over 110 or so Armor in lane, sometimes I'll just get LW haha.
Or switch with mid so Cassieopeia can beat up on his 40 MR ass.
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On May 19 2012 04:07 Node wrote:
Hey Smash, I've noticed while watching your stream that when your lane opponent goes heavy armor (usually a chain vest) you tend to skip the brutalizer and go straight for your bloodthirster. Why is that? Is the bruta just more of a lane domination item, and you're better off powering up a BT if you're not going to be able to outright kill them?
First response in the thread was right. Flat ArPen is pretty lackluster vs. high Armor, so you're better off just stacking AD and getting an early LW at that point. You will actually notice that I go BT -> Brutalizer a lot in these lanes though and that's because when I'm roaming around in the midgame, brutalizer makes a huge impact for its cost. If the brutalizer would come super late though, I will just skip it altogether for the early last whisper.
On May 19 2012 04:50 HughMyron wrote:
If the opponent is doing something stupid and has over 110 or so Armor in lane, sometimes I'll just get LW haha.
Or switch with mid so Cassieopeia can beat up on his 40 MR ass.
I've done LW first builds, but BT first is stronger. The LW doesn't really perform up to it's cost unless you have a hefty chunk of AD. Also, the lifesteal on BT helps loads in lanes where they stack armor and hope to attrition you out of the lane.
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On May 18 2012 22:24 Alaric wrote:About the Riven VOD: she's bad, she tried to trade with Panth at level 1.
Eh, Riven is fairly strong level 1. She just misassessed the situation (Panth had DBlade).
Also, Pantheon is a pretty rare champion, so she might not really know his capabilities.
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On May 19 2012 06:25 HughMyron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 22:24 Alaric wrote:About the Riven VOD: she's bad, she tried to trade with Panth at level 1. Eh, Riven is fairly strong level 1. She just misassessed the situation (Panth had DBlade). Also, Pantheon is a pretty rare champion, so she might not really know his capabilities.
I actually feel like I see an awful lot of Panth in my featured games (like, one of the games has a Panth more often than not) -- maybe he's getting more popular? Or maybe the featured games algorithm somehow knows I wanna watch Panth. Or maybe I'm just nuts.
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I don't see that much. And all I saw (hovering between 1200 et 1300 ranked, ~1450 stable normals) where pretty terrible, esp. more so in top lane than in the jungle, except for maybe two. Chalice first still common...
Also, do you sometimes have problems casting HSS? There are times where I just can't do anything about it. Last game I pressed E, clicked within the cone, three times in a row, and it didn't cast at all (cost me a death instead of a kill, and probably a free feed lane as well). It happens quite often actually, and I just can't get why.
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I smartcast it, never had any problems (unless you coun't accidentally clicking in the wrong direction huehuehue"
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EPT
