[Champion] Garen - Page 14

On December 11 2012 08:35 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
You do realize that we're talking about stacking BCs, which on this patch applies the on-hit per cleaver you have on each tick of spin, right? So like if you have 5 cleavers your very first tick applies 5 stacks and you're basically doing true damage to anyone under like 200 armor.

They're patching it soon, but right now it's ridiculous.

On December 11 2012 08:50 Slayer91 wrote:
Aside from discussing strategy based on a gimmick that will be nerfed very soon, stacking BC's probably isn't viable on garen because you can just get focused too easily while your burst isn't that much improved compared to assassins who have better mobility, and burst harder from the true damage physical thing since they are ALL physical damage while garen, as I said but most people realize, is only about 50% physical damage. (ignite+ult does more than half your damage you can expect assuming they have lower mr than armour which everyone should normally and that the fight isn't exceptionally long)

I mean, go for the whole BC stack thing on anyone physical based champ with a gap closer but garen doesn't fit that too well.

On December 12 2012 02:00 Slayer91 wrote:
Garen at level 18 does ~1k damage with Q and E combo if it hits fully. Garens R breaks even with 1.2k or so missing hp. That's a squishy with about 30-40% hp which is prime execute range. Ignite does, what, 410 or so true damage?

Garens physical does more if you stack armpen and AD, and opponents have less armour. Garens magic does more damage when people buy more hp but not mr (common in this patch if you're running a single AP, it's hard enough to get armour let alone mr), and also if you buy sunfire. Garens ignite does relatively more damage if you don't buy any damage or more likely they get really tanky. (specifically GAs).

Granted, you can get more than 1 combo off in a fight, but the most important phase of the fight, by the time you use your full combo you have to wait 8-9 seconds for another spin which you won't expect to be alive unless you're building tanky. (adding to the argument of building tank focused on garen instead of damage focused)

So you're buying damage items to augment a lesser portion of the damage you deal in your combo. Whatever about laning phase, you build what you need for that, and by the time you got your big defensive item sunfire or whatever and your brutalizer it's not going to make a huge difference whether you get BC or LW.

As for calling garens Q a gap closer, by that argument every single melee has a gap closer. Either an instant flash gap closer, a speed boost, or a CC spell. I'm talking about instant flash spells when I say gap closer. Because it allows you to burst squishies without them having time to react. The cloest garen has to that is flashing in with Q but flash isn't that long a range compared to most bruisers/assassins and it has an insane CD so you have to get something done with it.

On December 12 2012 06:12 Slayer91 wrote:
Stacking BCs might be viable, but I'm ignoring it because it's days are numbered.

Also AFAIK legendary armour says BONUS armour and magic resist meaning it doesn't scale all your base armour/mr so it might be a lot weaker than you guys think.

On December 12 2012 06:11 xes wrote:

http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#XMa6xUmvd

Subjective:
Relentless feels better than increased Tenacity since you probably want to build Merc's anyways. It is also highly unlikely that you can cleanse all the slows on you at once with a single Q, since in teamfights you'll have to deal with Red buff, Phage and now all those Ice items.

Flat damage reduction is always very strong because it applies after armor/mr which means it is worth multiplicatively more based on your armor/mr.

Objective:

3 pts in Juggernaut is better than 3 pts in flat MR once you have 50 MR but due to minimum pt requirements I split it 2 MR/2.75% HP (which breaks even at 60 MR).

1 pt in Defender is better than maxing out Juggernaut until you hit 300 armor/mr for the initial teamfight when you get +5 armor/mr. Also, Defender lets you check brushes by checking your armor/mr values

2 Juggernaut, 3 Legendary Armor performs better than 3 Juggernaut, 2 Armor, for AR/MR values higher than 170. BUT because of Garen's W passive the break even point is only 137, so 3 pts in Armor is better than 3 pts in Juggernaut.

On December 12 2012 08:12 nosliw wrote:

The tenacious stacks multiplicatively with Merc Treads though. Is Relentless still better than Tenacious?

On December 12 2012 06:26 Slayer91 wrote:
I don't know, 2 BC's and GA is a pretty much lategame build already so maybe it's worth it when you finish the second BC because you get full stacks at Q and first tick of spin and the CDR stacks. I don't think single BC is optimal though.

You specifically made the argument about stacking em this patch, fair enough, I mostly care about the people arguing for it as a single item being the best DPS choice for him.

On December 12 2012 10:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:

What is the single best DPS item choice for Garen in your eyes?

On December 12 2012 10:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:

What is the single best DPS item choice for Garen in your eyes?

On December 13 2012 04:23 xes wrote:
Is Sunfire worth it? It gives really nice stats for the midgame, and the passive is OK along with something like brutalizer -> sunfire, but if the game goes long then both sunfire and bruta end up taking up space and gold that couldn't been Warmogs or Whisperer.

Or is the whole point of Garen now to just kill stuff before it gets to lategame and I'm bad at directing my team to take objectives?

I just played a game where I built Bruta -> Sunfire -> Mercs -> Cleaver and felt really strong for the first Baron at around 25 mins. + Show Spoiler +
TL;DR I ended up on Cleaver, Mercs, Sunfire, Warmogs, Visage, and then Randuins but at this point I really wish I didn't buy the bruta at all got my Sunfire/etc earlier and then picked up LW instead of bruta. But at the same time having the flat armor pen apply after Whisperer makes bruta much better (though the cleaver upgrade not worth as much).

There are 7 items I feel are really good for lategame Garen and only 6 item slots what to do.