EPT[Champion] Garen - Page 13
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JokerSan
United States306 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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rhs408
United States904 Posts
Edit: It also seems that this champ has been rebalanced since the OP here, do people still even do these damage type builds (BloodThirster, IE) nowadays? | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On November 16 2012 08:35 rhs408 wrote: Played my first few games with Garen yesterday - what a fantastic champ. So fun to shut down katarinas and/or other tough melees. I did not know that Q and E can crit, certainly good to know. I really never even felt the need for any sort of damage items though, he does so much f'ing damage without it (I went full tank builds every game). I will try getting a brutalizer next game, seems like it would be perfect for him. Still on the fence though as to if I should start with boots + 3 pot or a Doran's Blade, have always started with boots build. Will Doran's blade basically add +10 damage to every hit from E? Sounds intriguing... Edit: It also seems that this champ has been rebalanced since the OP here, do people still even do these damage type builds (BloodThirster, IE) nowadays? you allways should start boots as you need to be at least as fast as your opponent the additional health from your pots allow you to stay long enough to push the lane into the turret so you can go back to buy some stuff. the most important items i think are mercs and wardens mail. you should allways get those at some point. the rest is situational. there are more damage oriented builds and more tank oriented ones. lw is better most of the time than bruta IMO. your base damage and your ult is enough for you to stack defense as long as you need to. get more AD if there is a high-priority target you can reach easily with a full combo. as you figured garen is pretty good if they have kat or another assassin because they cannot ever get close if you predict their targets well enough. its harder if you have to dive in with garen especially if there are stuns or knockbacks. so yeah. get defense, especially wardens mail and mercs, but don't completely neglect damage if you can almost allways catch someone. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:15 clickrush wrote: you allways should start boots as you need to be at least as fast as your opponent the additional health from your pots allow you to stay long enough to push the lane into the turret so you can go back to buy some stuff. the most important items i think are mercs and wardens mail. you should allways get those at some point. the rest is situational. there are more damage oriented builds and more tank oriented ones. lw is better most of the time than bruta IMO. your base damage and your ult is enough for you to stack defense as long as you need to. get more AD if there is a high-priority target you can reach easily with a full combo. as you figured garen is pretty good if they have kat or another assassin because they cannot ever get close if you predict their targets well enough. its harder if you have to dive in with garen especially if there are stuns or knockbacks. so yeah. get defense, especially wardens mail and mercs, but don't completely neglect damage if you can almost allways catch someone. I actually like starting with a doran's shield deoending on the MU. Maxing q first means that you will be fast when you need to be, and the shield lets you freeze lane from level one. Bullying becomes a breeze. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
boots/Black Cleaver x 3/ghostblade/GA boots are obvious, bc for true damage and health, gb for more ms, some crit, and moar pen, and GA for resists (goes good with w passive). replace a black cleaver with revolver (yes) if you need sustain | ||
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nosliw
United States2716 Posts
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little fancy
Germany2504 Posts
On December 08 2012 21:50 nosliw wrote: three black cleavers? What? The passives are not unique (yet) so you get 30% CDR, +45 flat ArPen and full Cleaver stacks in roughly a third of Garen's spin, dealing massive AoE damage and shredding almost a whole teams armor (5 people is not realistic, but hitting 3-4 is absolutely doable as rambo Garen) for your AD carry that can now follow up with a hilarious heavy damage Ult (Graves / MF come to mind, especially when they already got their Last Whisper and have specced flat pen by themselves). Thanks to the order of penetration changes armor shred is actually pretty noticeable and Cleaver is the go-to item right now. Yesterday a J4 (who had a cleaver) + Taric + Corki combination melted me and my team in fights and it's the same principle with Black Cleaver Garen (I guess at least, haven't played triple Cleaver myself). | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On December 10 2012 16:40 BlasiuS wrote: I really feel like Garen got a huge boost from season 3 changes:
I think you forgot the anti-slow masteries. He still seems kind of "lacking", if you will. I guess it's because he doesn't have gapclosers and his only CC is a single target silence. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On December 10 2012 18:48 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: You're forgetting that spin applies fear to all people within the circle and that execute is a form of CC Which oddly does magic damage. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I think the sunfire "buff", with warmogs and randuins both being fairly untouched make the full tank +armpen builds better. Stuff like brutalizer +LW into full tank is probably optimal. You have to abuse garens absurd base damage and tank steriods. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On December 11 2012 01:41 Slayer91 wrote: BC is actually terrible for garen compared to most people, wtf? Your Q and spin combo does 7 applications of physical damage only 3 of which will get the benefit of the full reduction, and after that all your burst is non physical (ignite, ult) except for your autos which you don't get to stick to people too much or the 9 seconds later or whatever when the next spin comes and the BC debuff already wears off. I think the sunfire "buff", with warmogs and randuins both being fairly untouched make the full tank +armpen builds better. Stuff like brutalizer +LW into full tank is probably optimal. You have to abuse garens absurd base damage and tank steriods. Gotta disagree there. His E applies full BC stacks in 2 seconds, and that's in an AOE. There's only a few bruisers who can do that. Riven can apply 3 stacks quickly if she hits multiple people with a full Q. Pantheon can with his E, but he can't move while channeling it, and again it's only 3 stacks. Renekton can with a Q+E combo, but again, only 3 stacks. Who exactly did you have in mind that uses BC passive better than garen? But that aside, just looking at how much of your own kit can do damage at full stacks is an extremely arbitrary way of deciding who BC is good on. The BC debuff is good not only for yourself, but for the rest of your team. Even besides the passive, Garen uses all of the stats on BC effectively, and of course it builds out of brutalizer. The current BC is so good it's core on Garen. I suspect even after the nerfs it will still be core on him. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On December 11 2012 02:03 BlasiuS wrote: Gotta disagree there. His E applies full BC stacks in 2 seconds, and that's in an AOE. There's only a few bruisers who can do that. Riven can apply 3 stacks quickly if she hits multiple people with a full Q. Pantheon can with his E, but he can't move while channeling it, and again it's only 3 stacks. Renekton can with a Q+E combo, but again, only 3 stacks. Who exactly did you have in mind that uses BC passive better than garen? But that aside, just looking at how much of your own kit can do damage at full stacks is an extremely arbitrary way of deciding who BC is good on. The BC debuff is good not only for yourself, but for the rest of your team. Even besides the passive, Garen uses all of the stats on BC effectively, and of course it builds out of brutalizer. The current BC is so good it's core on Garen. I suspect even after the nerfs it will still be core on him. Renek has 4 damaging spells, and can auto attack inbetween spells which also stack BC faster and use stacks. He has a double gap closer and a stun both allow him to auto a lot more and use the time to auto attack with the armpen. Riven is the same, 5 damaging spells and also you can auto inbetween with your gapclosers. Meanwhile Garen has a pathetic AoE radius on his spin and you bolded it, lol. If you want AOE try WUKONG. His ult does like 2x-3x the damage of your spin, gives him a movement boost and has a massively larger radius. Not to mention he already has armour reduction in his Q and a gap closer in E and a as boost to help him stack faster. Brutal+LW is vastly more effective damage than BC on garen. And even then you are trying to compare champs who do ONLY physical damage or close to it, to champions who do about 50% physical damage (garen) The "rest of your team" usually involves just the AD carry who may not be hitting the same target. Why not get BC on support with that argument? ranged can stack it easier! | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On December 11 2012 03:17 Slayer91 wrote: Renek has 4 damaging spells, and can auto attack inbetween spells which also stack BC faster and use stacks. He has a double gap closer and a stun both allow him to auto a lot more and use the time to auto attack with the armpen. Riven is the same, 5 damaging spells and also you can auto inbetween with your gapclosers. Meanwhile Garen has a pathetic AoE radius on his spin and you bolded it, lol. If you want AOE try WUKONG. His ult does like 2x-3x the damage of your spin, gives him a movement boost and has a massively larger radius. Not to mention he already has armour reduction in his Q and a gap closer in E and a as boost to help him stack faster. Brutal+LW is vastly more effective damage than BC on garen. And even then you are trying to compare champs who do ONLY physical damage or close to it, to champions who do about 50% physical damage (garen) The "rest of your team" usually involves just the AD carry who may not be hitting the same target. Why not get BC on support with that argument? ranged can stack it easier! I'm still unsure of the point of your post. Are you suggesting BC isn't core on garen? Or that BC isn't worthwhile because wukong also uses it well? Or that BC is actually bad on garen? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
The comparision was merely to refute the point that "it's better on him than on other bruisers" (lol) | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On December 11 2012 05:00 Slayer91 wrote: I'm saying its sub optimal at least until late game The comparision was merely to refute the point that "it's better on him than on other bruisers" (lol) But you provide extremely weak examples. Riven can't apply full stacks in an aoe, neither can renekton. Wukong is the only good example, so that's 1 champion out of 90+. At the very worst Garen is top 5 champs who benefit from BC. Using that as the basis for "BC is actually terrible for garen compared to most people, wtf?" is delusional. You haven't even refuted the point that Garen is one of the best champs in the game for utilizing BC. I think you're confusing "BC is terrible on Garen" with "well technically there may be 1 or 2 champs that could situationally use the passive on BC better than Garen can". There's quite a difference there. And of course BC is optimal early game. The build path is extremely cost-efficient, as is the recipe. It would be silly to build brutalizer and then not upgrade it until late-game. It's why I and almost every high-level garen player builds BC as their first item. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Even still, applying it to more than 1 target isn't all that useful when your AD can only focus one at a time, it's worth something but I generally rather not waste your main combo on garen to focus tanks just to apply BC. If you look at personal use garen only uses it for 3 ticks of spin which is half his spin which is less than 1/4 of his combo damage that benefits from the full stack of BC, seems like a pretty meh reason to build it unless you're specifically making a team around applying BC to a few targets with some other AOE physical dealers. Also, you said wukong was the only good example, but wukong uses BC far more effectively than garen does, whats the point of playing garen and rushing BC when wukong does the same thing except with WAY bigger aoe, way more damage and a more reliable way to get in to apply the AoE BC. The strengths of garen over wukong is his base damage especially on ult and his tank steriod on W, if you aren't building to abuse those (threaten to combo squishies while being so tanky you can't really be focused) you might as well just play wukong. Also talon with W and ult applies 4 stacks in a bigger AoE than garen as well. He also has a gap closer to get in to use it. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
They're patching it soon, but right now it's ridiculous. | ||
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