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Hm. Now I want to bring this Regen Garen build to my other bruisers. Warmogs Randuins FON sounds pretty sick. 1 offensive core item tailored to whatever champion I'm playing - the LW can be instead an AS item for Irelia (wits or something) and so on.
Wardens is pretty sick early game vs AD bruisers/autoattackers. A warden proc can, by itself, turn a trade completely in your favor and stop them from disengaging. Then it gives you 25 HP5? Sure.
I'm not incredibly fond of DShield, though. I'd rather go like... Boots 3 -> cloth+beads (instead of dshield) -> use cloth on tabi and beads on warden's mail. I also think as far as items to hit people with, phage is a lovely early defense+offense item and still fits alright into these highly defensive setups.
Inc Regen Jayce, Regen Irelia, and Regen Riven. 
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The point of the dorans shield is that they're just really cost effective and the hp is not only good for tower diving/ganks/getting ganked etc but it also gives more regen from your passive. I'd feel like a morn buying cloth+beads tbh.
I think regen quints are secret OP actually everyone just stopped using em when everyone had sick sustain and just went armour quints but now everyone needs to start using em. Wickds been using them for forever.
I don't think regen builds are good on everyone, past laning phase, it's only guys with really good base damage but bad scaling and trouble getting into teamfights without being really tanky. Mundo is the classic guy to build those items. Garen works, but not many other champs do. Garens ult is almost all of his damage when it comes to bursting a low hp target, it actually does upwards of 1k damage on targets which are missing 1.5k hp or so.
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What about running flat HP quints on Garen?
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Nah, just buy dorans shields.
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What I've been doing is flat armor red, flat armor yellow, mr/lvl blue, and hp quints and going tripple Doran's blade into Sunfire, so far I've only lost once with it XD
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I've been trying around lately which includes some stuff I used to build on the "old" Garen. It has revived my old love for Frozen Mallet again.
An early Phage actually feels like I do at least decent damage in the early to mid game and the slow is just boss. I spammed the Regen build several games before but its success is closely connected to how you do in lane.
If you fail, farming up that Warmog's into FoN is a pain in the ass and you are not really a threat in midgame teamfights if you are not 3+ levels ahead of the enemy carry you are supposed to combo to death.
Phage (and later Mallet) can cover this weakness but it lacks a good chunk of plain HP and the Regen so you are not that unkillable.
In the end, it seems to come down which path you plan to go: a true tanky frontliner going almost full tank relying on your base damage + ultimate to instagib a low carry or a classic bruiser (Bruta / Ghostblade + Phage / Mallet into tanky stuff) that has a stronger presence in the midgame but can't tank a whole team for several seconds and escaping with low HP into the sunset.
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Gotta admit, I accidently had a random Garen lock and decided to follow the regen Garen build. I lost a lot of CS to Kayle due to Alistar camping, but they couldn't get me below 50% even with the help. Doran Shields and Warmogs is pretty much unkillable so early into the game.
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+25 armor pen runes are really strong. By the time the squishies have armor you can just buy a brutalizer and continue to almost true damage their carries while ignoring their bruisers.
Fast aegis is also really strong. I've been going boots/dorans -> boots/dorans -> nmm or 2nd dorans -> SV vs AP harass or Aegis -> roam bot to tower dive with dragon followup.
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recently bought garen after the price reduction. And I noticed he recently got rebalance, so I am wondering how you guys play him now.
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Try reading the last few pages of the thread?
REGEN GAREN
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On August 28 2012 11:38 Celestial wrote:
Gotta admit, I accidently had a random Garen lock and decided to follow the regen Garen build. I lost a lot of CS to Kayle due to Alistar camping, but they couldn't get me below 50% even with the help. Doran Shields and Warmogs is pretty much unkillable so early into the game.
Yorick doesn't have as much damage as kayle but I played the yorick vs garen matchup and my opponent rushed dorans and armor and I couldn't bring him down either. I could drive him off creeps for a few seconds, but garen's sustain is pretty dec.
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On September 19 2012 11:05 nosliw wrote:
recently bought garen after the price reduction. And I noticed he recently got rebalance, so I am wondering how you guys play him now.
Build items so you are unkillable. Go in fight, spin, kill something, run out. Come back when cooldowns are up and you magically have max HP again, spin and kill more things.
Garen is super strong vs low sustain lanes that don't have constant harass to keep your passive down. If you get an early kill you can just bully them around and even if bot and mid are both 0-5 you can come to midgame fights with a warmogs and kill one carry with spin+q+ignite and kill the other carry with spin+ult.
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Is HP more valuable to him than ar/mr?
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The HP is good in lane because of his passive, but also warmogs/dshield is just a really good regen item as well, that's the main reason for the dshields/warmogs. AR/MR are good too because of the thing on W though.
You want to up your resists later if you don't need more damage.
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haven't mathed it or anything but in my experience... not really, you can build pretty much any defensive items you want and get huge so you might as well just pick them on a game by game basis and not have a standard build. I think it's a bit silly to get locked into a specific stat every game. Sunfire, mogs, randuins, hexdrinker, ga, etc, have all worked really well for me.
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I build garen as tanky bruiser. I haven't tried mass regen garen yet. HP is good when combined with resists, and good with his passive, but he gets a free 20% bonus resists from his W passive. I haven't done any serious mathcrafting, but it seems to me that building resists are generally better. I usually get FM and that's it for +health items. Just FM together with 9 points in defense gives you 2991 health at level 18, which is plenty tanky if you have 200+ armor and 150+ MR.
crit items are good on him since his Q and E both can crit. Particularly, the crit items that give +AD are great for garen, since he has boss scaling on his Q & E. I'm looking mostly at IE/Youmuu's/Atma's here.
Since garen gets free bonus resists thanks to W, I feel that AD + resists items are also great for garen. The best in this category are probably atma's and maw. In case you haven't noticed, atma's is really good on garen, since every stat synergizes with him in some way.
However he can work with a mostly offensive build or defensive build. A good balanced build would be something like:
merc treads/youmuu's/FM/atma's/maw/6th item. Great damage (youmuu/FM/atmas/Maw), good sticking power (youmuu's active, FM slow), 3k health, and good resists. Garen needs good sticking power since his most of his abilities are melee range, and he has no gap-closer, and no hard cc.
Beyond that, just build according to the game:
If you're the team's tank, get FM/atma's/GA faster.
If you already have a tanky team, get youmuu's/IE/atma's faster.
If you need more MR, add in FoN. If you need more armor, add in Randuin's/Sunfire.
If against AP, buy quick hexdrinker. If against heavy AD, buy ninja tabi/chain vest.
edit: if against armor-stacking team, get LW faster (sell off brutalizer)
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EDIT: Warning messy theorycraft lots of numbers read at your own peril
" Judgment can critically strike but only the bonus damage portion of the ability will crit.
Judgement is subject to a linear crit bonus damage penalty of 50%. This means that if you have 100 damage from the ratio on Judgement, on a crit, you deal 50 more damage. Infinity Edge increases the crit multiplier to 50% + 50% = 100% and Lethality (mastery) increases it by 10%. "
Crit is actually pretty bad on garen. I tried building atmas and it felt like a piece of shit. IE felt way better and I didn't really know why but this explains it, it doubles the crit damage and therefore doubles the effectiveness of crit. IE's 20% crit is worth more than the 33% crit of atmas and gives the same or more AD than the two combined.
A level 18 garen with no bonus AD does 741.15 damage with 1 judgement and Q does 291.7 damage.
This gives a physical combo burst of 1032.85 + 4.7xbonus AD
A garen with frozen mallet, maw and youmuus atmas with 3k hp has 150 bonus AD, with 33% crit, giving you 810 extra damage including an average of (.33x1.5+.66x1 =1.15) 15% increase in damage from crit. (not sure about descisive strike crits tho). 810 damage from 11547 gold worth of items.
Assuming said target has 3k hp and 100 armour your combo damage is 921.425 physical damage, 410 true damage from ignite and let's say with the team we get him down to 1k out of 3k, our ult does 525+(.4x2000 =800) =1325, even assuming he has 100 mr that's 662.5 damage.
So your QE combo is 921 damage and your ult+ignite is 1072 damage meaning less than 50% of your damage is actually physical here. If you auto a bit with yomuus you probably won't get more than a few in but it might break the 50/50 mark. Consideing armour stacking is more usual than mr stacking with only 1 ap damage dealer you can expect something like an AD carry to have maybe 150 armour and like 60 mr or something as well.
Remember thats 11.5k worth of items, with 36 mr, 700 hp, and 45 armour as well as the maw proc meaning you've spent 600 gold on magic resist, 700 gold on armour, 1800 gold on hp = 3100 gold on defenses, you get a bit more from hexdrinker proc depending on who's killing you but if it at least procs let's round it up to 1/3 of your gold on defenses.
So you are spending 2/3 of your total gold on items on damage. What's the damage increase? About 400 with your full combo used once to burst. Maybe your burst increased from around 1500 to 2000, pretty pathetic increase in damage honestly.
IE+PD+LW+GA costs a total of 2845+2230+3830+2600 = 11.5k gold worth of items. It depends on the champ but these items increase your DPS on an ad carry with no items vs 100/200 armour targets by probably 4-8x AND the GA gives similar MR Armour and HP if you revive than your whole set up.
That why I don't build bruiser items on garen. Yeah I'm ignoring frozen mallet, yomuus proc, but IMO they are both trash on garen. Why do you need sticking power when you do everything with 1 combo where the target is silenced you're moving fast and you break all slowing effects.
That's why I just get LW and lategame IE. LW adds 188 damage +40% armpen. With IE that's another 376 damage with the crit bonus. 20% crit with IE proc is 1.2xdamage so 677 damage bonus for 6k. Not that great, which is why I usually just get LW. Let's say you have 50% armourpen and the target has 200 armour. (GA+aegis+taric or smth, or a tank)
Your combo is 1220 damage x .33 = 407 damage. With 50% armour pen that's 610 damage. Without LW you have 1032/3 = 344 damage. So you can spend 2.2k gold to nearly double your physical damage against tanks instead of spending over 6k gold which doesn't even double your physical damage against squishys. In fact against a 200 armour target your build does a total of 614 damage. That is, 11.5k item build level 18 garen does the same damage against a 200 armour target as a level 18 garen with 2k item build. Toss in a couple giants belts, a vest and negatron to balance it out and that's a 5.6k item build for more hp, more mr, and the same damage.
A consequence of this is that we can show that garen actually has awful damage scaling in general.
You can say yeah just wait 9 seconds and use QE again, but who's going to live 10 seconds in a teamfight? Super tanky guys who pick their spots and start the fight with full hp. Thus the whole regen garen thing. You absorb any poke, and in fights you're unkillable, but if they want to walk past you, you can combo them for most of their hp and if you get any support you can finish them with ult ignite, and you silence them too so they can't even get their spells off.
Obviously the issue here is garen can't initiate, it's like garen is super godlike unbeatable champ.
There's no reason to build lots of damage on him because you can just play any other champ say wukong and build the items you want to build except you have a gap closer, an attack speed steriod, built in armour pen and a better spin.
However when you look at garens perks
-One of the highest damage spells in the game when used as execute without any AD or AP needed for that damage
-Built into CC breaker, CC reduction, speed boost and a silence
-Pretty good base damage for a physical damage champ. For reference lee sin has 1140 so only 100 more damage than you at level 18 without ad INCLUDING his ult (not including execute tho). Lee sin has similar scaling but again this is garens QE vs lee sins full combo. Ofc lee sin has his utility nd cc but that's not the point.
-One of the very best defensive steriods in the game lategame. 20% bonus resists and 30% damage reduction for 6 whole seconds.
-A %hp based regen on his passive, so with his Q he's basically a walking force of nature except the movement speed bonus is faster and the regen is higher but they're both temporary.
The way scaling works it's generally better to stack on your strengths. That's why the nearly full tank regen garen builds work pretty well when you'd think garen is just a bad champ. Obviously he has lots of weaknesses, being a tank without initiate in itself is a pretty crippling design to have. At least mundo has poke.
Also CDR in theory is good on garen but the huge issue is you do so much with your 1 combo and it's often risk free to wait for cds but if you invest a lot in CDR you waste a lot of it on your E because the CD starts after you finish spinning and I think it's the same with Q. Otherwise ghostblade CDR would be worth a lot more and if you didn't expect them to stack armour ghostblade+cdr boots would probably be viable. Garen isn't totally dependent on mercs since W and Q and both anti cc moves cdr boots work sort of as tenacity. More practically though having 21 defensive+w+mercs prevents puny humans from trying to stop you when you're spinning on someone. 60% cc reduction meaning a 1.5 second taric stun lasts only 0.6 seconds on you combined with your speed boost it mightn't even allow whoever you're spinning on silenced to get out of range of the spin damage and ult range.
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On September 20 2012 07:42 Slayer91 wrote:
Crit is actually pretty bad on garen. I tried building atmas and it felt like a piece of shit. IE felt way better and I didn't really know why but this explains it, it doubles the crit damage and therefore doubles the effectiveness of crit. IE's 20% crit is worth more than the 33% crit of atmas and gives the same or more AD than the two combined.
Mind explaining? Atmas has 18% crit. Do you mean it'd be more damage than atmas tacked on to 33% crit from brawlers gloves/cloaks, and runes?
IE provides 25% crit. Same thing?
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From the top of my post
"Judgement is subject to a linear crit bonus damage penalty of 50%. This means that if you have 100 damage from the ratio on Judgement, on a crit, you deal 50 more damage. Infinity Edge increases the crit multiplier to 50% + 50% = 100% and Lethality (mastery) increases it by 10%. ""
so atmas 18% crit + youmuus 15% crit which is 33% crit is only worth 16.5% IE crit because IE crits hit twice as hard on judgement
IE gives 25% crit? It's slightly better than the above then zzz
but I'm ignoring that decisive strike crits for 150% from IE and 100% from judgement so it prolly works out similar in comparision.
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well that's a huge post with a lot of topics. I won't respond to every point, but I will say that I disagree with some of them.
The biggest thing is that most of your math assumes that I don't ever get a LW. While I didn't specifically mention in my post that I would get LW against an armor-stacking team, I most surely would if everyone on their team has 150+ armor. In fact depending on what point in the game it was, I'd probably sell off brutalizer and get last whisper instead of finishing it into youmuu's, since against an armor-stacking team the 20 flat armor pen of youmuu's is fairly useless against such large armor amounts. So I'm curious now to know what the new numbers are, Using LW/IE/Maw/Atma's.
Also, I disagree that going from ~1500 burst to ~2000 is pathetic. I think that's the difference between getting a kill and not honestly.
I think Garen benefits greatly from +damage items. He's a burst champ, so he needs as much damage as he can get. Having LW obviously changes everything if you're up against 200 armor tanks and 150 armor ad carries like you described; I already know that.
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EPT
