EPT[Champion] Garen - Page 10
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HAL9OOO
United States176 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Just beat a jax o_O I thought for sure I would lose the lane hard, but Demacia strikes again. I basically go for a max arpen build, since his E deals multiple ticks of damage, so building armor against him hurts. I've been running AD marks/quints to help with his early game, but I'm considering running arpen to see what it does. I go 19/11/0 masteries, getting as much AD and ArPen as I can from offense, then getting veteran scars + indomitable from defense for trading and tanking minions in lane. I've been going: boots + 3/4 pot -> 1 or 2 doran's -> brutalizer as early-game core Then: merc treads -> hexdrinker -> maw vs. AP ninja tabi -> chain mail -> sunfire against heavy AD OR ninja tabi -> chain mail -> warden's against an auto-attacker top lane (jax/irelia/yi/trynd) pickaxe -> last whisper if they stack armor, or if i'm winning phage -> frozen mallet if we need more cc then lategame: youmuu's last whisper boots some combination of Maw/Randuin's/Sunfire/Frozen Mallet depending on whether you need armor, MR, health, or CC other situational items: Aegis, FoN, guardian angel(?), black cleaver(?), bloodthirster, | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
This doesnt make any sense. Armour is a flat % reduction to your damage. If E did all it's damage in 1 second armour wouldn't be any better or worse. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 17 2012 04:56 Slayer91 wrote: " basically go for a max arpen build, since his E deals multiple ticks of damage, so building armor against him hurts" This doesnt make any sense. Armour is a flat % reduction to your damage. If E did all it's damage in 1 second armour wouldn't be any better or worse. Ah, my apologies. I thought armor was calculated a bit differently. People have still been stacking armor against me though, so I think brutalizer is still a good opening. Not sure about using arpen marks/quints though. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On August 17 2012 03:12 little fancy wrote: lvl 3 E makes small camps melt, granted (but the way up to champion level 5 is painful). But early buffs are a pain in the ass and I couldn't do a full clear even with a heavy leash at blue (had to use smite on it so it wasn't ready for red) and even then it felt pretty slow and I took a lot of pain. However, I like him a little bit more on the lane than before, not only for his new passive. I just realized he gained the 20% resist increase passively with a single point in W. I thought you'd have to kill minions still but now gain % increase instead of flat (1 creep = 0.5 % or something, so 40 creeps = the full 20%), but hell yeah, not needing to farm creeps for the bonus is pretty strong. Regarding defensive items: Randuin's is pretty much set for me vs AD. I struggle vs AP however. Aegies + Mercs doesn't seem to be enough when AP carries have 50+ flat spell pen (Runes + Abyssal + Sorc Boots and maybe even Haunting Guise). And sometimes I feel too slow to really catch up in time. Anything you guys build for extra MS? AP's are IMO better when they get mpen and AP than when they just go straight AP + sorc boots but you have to remember that every bit of gold they spend on mpen is gold they're not spending on AP. Combine that with the fact that guise and abyssal have defensive components and the AP's shouldn't be beating you that much harder. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
If that's not enough I dunno, that's like 100 MR from items right there, and another 60 from base+runes. You might be taking bad trades? even vs. 70+10% mpen (the most they can realistically get with this build) you still have like 80 MR left over after all that pen. Don't be in a hurry to upgrade your hexdrinker into Maw. Maw is more about slot-efficiency than cost-efficiency (it's average cost-efficiency of an upgrade, whereas hexdrinker is VERY cost-efficient.) work on whatever you consider your core offensive power. If you're stacking flat ArPen, avoid getting LW unless you REALLY need it. LW is anti-synergistic with flat armor pen - you generally want either one or the other. If you recognize early that you are going to need LW (urgot is their AD or everyones buying armor and someone has an Aegis, or taric is on their team, etc) then skip the flat armor pen items and get LW instead, not in addition. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 17 2012 05:54 Slayer91 wrote: Armourpen is also not the best against armour stack because it's cheaper to buy armour than to buy armour pen. Armour pen is more effective for increasing your damage at low levels of enemy armour getting from 20-->0 is better than from 40--20 for armour pen I believe. it's my understanding that most top lanes have at least 30+ armor, so armor pen seems worth it to me. 6 from mastery 13 from armor seals 11-19 depending on champ's base stats anyway I'm seeing a bunch of current high-level garens get brutalizer, and I've had success with going brutalizer first, so I think that's at least a decent opening. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Brutalizer is definitely great - and ghostblade works well as a later item. But when they go buy a chainmail + ninja tabi, your armor pen is not scaling as well as their armor is, and you're running out of sources to get it as well. (At this point, you've basically done your job though - you've greatly delayed their combat effectiveness by forcing them to buy a ton of early armor before core items. Take this as a victory.) Some people used to run literally +40 Armor runepages vs. garen (and pantheon) because if they could survive early, garen scaled poorly enough that it didn't matter what they had to do to survive the laning phase and come out with roughly even CS. Hopefully with new garen, he doesn't drop off so hard that this is a wise option for his opponents. | ||
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goldenkrnboi
United States3104 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 17 2012 15:25 goldenkrnboi wrote: has anybody tried a crit centered build? i've played around with a few builds and i've had decent results with most of them, but haven't found one that felt decisively better than the rest Garen's typical build already has tons of crit... unless you also want to build IE. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 17 2012 13:13 sylverfyre wrote: Yes, but flat armor pen is at its most powerful when you're reducing their armor to precisely 0. You can get up to 31 from runes and masteries, but then itemizing for it further is difficult. Brutalizer is definitely great - and ghostblade works well as a later item. But when they go buy a chainmail + ninja tabi, your armor pen is not scaling as well as their armor is, and you're running out of sources to get it as well. (At this point, you've basically done your job though - you've greatly delayed their combat effectiveness by forcing them to buy a ton of early armor before core items. Take this as a victory.) Some people used to run literally +40 Armor runepages vs. garen (and pantheon) because if they could survive early, garen scaled poorly enough that it didn't matter what they had to do to survive the laning phase and come out with roughly even CS. Hopefully with new garen, he doesn't drop off so hard that this is a wise option for his opponents. lol not many top laners sacrifice a lot to get a tabi and a chain vest. I don't think new garen scales better than old garen, although he does without damage items. (Thus the regen garen build I've been patenting, regen quints masteries 2 x dshield into warmogs//Fon into randuins//LW regen alll day erry day never die!) Also crit is a really poor dps increase on spin compared to what it's like on auto hits it's still not really worth building. It's like a 40% increase on a tick of spin? AD carries are getting 100% or 150%.. I've never built garen with crit nor ever seen a successful crit garen build. I've seen a lot more recently but I've been too busy trucking them in lane with my imba regen and being way more effective than them trolol. | ||
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goldenkrnboi
United States3104 Posts
On August 17 2012 19:24 Sufficiency wrote: Garen's typical build already has tons of crit... unless you also want to build IE. ...?! what else is in the typical build besides ghostblade? | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On August 17 2012 03:52 HAL9OOO wrote: I feel like its time for CALLER SPEED GAREN. decisive strike crits = 500 damage 3pds = always crit spin2win = makes u move slower 3 pds = always move fast damage = nerfed 3 pds = attack faster for more deeps dont see a problem here | ||
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tdynasty
Canada220 Posts
Ghostblade is actually not even that good. It's almost pointless to build for lane dominance, since you sacrifice so much tankyness. I suggest building Guardian Angel early. HP through Frozen Mallet, and atma's later on. Hextrinker and rank 2 boots will give u close to 200 armor 200 mr. If you play Garen DPS then you are basically asking to be weaker post 20 minutes. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Tanky DPS means you need to provide some amount of DPS. With your core of mallet GA, in midgame you'll do less than 1k damage with your combo + a few autos to someone with 0 armor. All of the builds suggested so far are a balance of AD/crit and resist items. Yours is like... all tank items and almost no damage. Edit: Well, all the builds except for Speed Garen. But not everybody can be Caller. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
HP regen quints armour/mr/ad or arpen 21 defenseive with hp5 mastery start boots of dorans shield 2 doran shield into warmogs//FoN//Randuins//LW. Atmas last item. You have "0 dmg" but your base damage got buffed and ult ignite as well is still strong so you actually do decent damage and are almost unkillable and push everyone out of lane with your imba regen LOL. (46 hp5 at level 1 with passive and dshield) Basically if you're playing garen and building heavy AD I feel like you're playing a nerfed garen. I had my glory days of garen with BT/LW/warmogs/GA stuff but now its just flat out nerfed so might as well abuse the things that got buffed. (30% tank steriod, 30% cc reduction, better base damage and regen in lane that doesnt get knocked off every time a creep ai bugs and hits you) The problem with crit on garen is it's only like 40% increased damage on spin when it procs, so you're building crit on a champ that benefits less than crit than say AD carries, so why bother? You already have to worry about incoming damage enough that it doesn't make sense except maybe I can see IE being viable over BT and then atmas lategame but even that seems silly. Part of the idea is that you never have to back except for items so you hit 18 faster, which takes advantage of greater spin damage l0l. I think I got the replays but they're probably not very valuable hah. This is my garen history: (item build not in order) Game 1: Jungle garen, got fed, mercs, dblade, IE, GA, hexdrinker. 4/4/9 Game 2: Top garen, bruta, dblade, GA 5-7-8 Game 3: REGEN GAREN dshield tabi wardens mail warmogs fon thornmail 7/3/3 Game 4: chain vest LW Randuins FoN warmogs tabi 16/5/10 Game 5: Randuins Warmogs LW Mercs nega/vest 10/2/13 Game 6: 2x dshield Randuins Warmogs LW 9/1/5 Conclusive proof, regen garen new meta! | ||
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goldenkrnboi
United States3104 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:54 Slayer91 wrote: The problem with crit on garen is it's only like 40% increased damage on spin when it procs, so you're building crit on a champ that benefits less than crit than say AD carries, so why bother? You already have to worry about incoming damage enough that it doesn't make sense except maybe I can see IE being viable over BT and then atmas lategame but even that seems silly. butbut. Q crits too. D: and those spin crit procs are deceptively strong too i feel like. like, everybody talks about how e got nerfed so hard, but i honestly haven't really noticed that big of a difference, especially when going crit/AD garen the build that i've found the most success with would be boots+3 0-2 dblades depending on how badly i want brutalizer brutalizer ^v(interchangeable if necessary) boots 2 frozen mallet atma's ghostblade IE i've never had to get a 6th item yet, so not completely sure what i want cause i was never able to test it. I was thinking PD, for extra movespeed + crit, but idk idk. could also get an earlier avarice somewhere in there for the extra crit and gp10 before upgrading to ghostblade. like maybe after phage or before phage or something | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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