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On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
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i def agree that vs irelia you really need the wriggles, because just q's can't keep up.
edit: just played the matchup a few hours ago, and once she got wiggles, i couldn't fight her, ever. Rushed phage first, big mistake looking back on it.
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i might have already said this earlier in the thread but you should really try the spark item if you want to do the pushing. if you want armor frozen heart is probably the best buy.
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If I want to do the pushing I'll buy sunfire or I'll just go wit's + wriggle's -> triforce. You don't need to build a bad item to push with ww.
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i used to build sunfire but i tried the spark item and i dont think it was so bad so ive been doing that now. im curious what makes you say spark is so bad?
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Wit's end exists in the game? I've had this discussion too many times to have it again.
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i didnt say you cant buy wits end. its clearly the best mr item you can get for warwick lol. i know spark doesnt give you resistances which makes it seem kinda meh on a hero that has so much healing but i bought it in game and thought it worked well. also i really like frozen heart as the main armor item on ww.
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On February 17 2012 06:12 Mogwai wrote:
If I want to do the pushing I'll buy sunfire or I'll just go wit's + wriggle's -> triforce. You don't need to build a bad item to push with ww.
Sunfire is a bad item
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well, yea, but it's not as bad as ionic spark. it at least gives sensible stats.
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So it turns out that top lane WW is able to beat Lee Sin. The buff on his passive just makes it really hard to stand and fight ww now. I had Tabi and a glacial and while I wasnt beating him badly, every time he decided to stand and fight I came out ahead.
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I think it was that way pre-buff at level 7 if you went wriggles. I just used to be a derp vs. Lee during low levels and then build the wrong items.
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On February 17 2012 06:06 barbsq wrote:
i def agree that vs irelia you really need the wriggles, because just q's can't keep up.
edit: just played the matchup a few hours ago, and once she got wiggles, i couldn't fight her, ever. Rushed phage first, big mistake looking back on it.
Wit's End is great because even though it doesn't give the sustain Wriggle's does, it gives you so much DPS that you can stand toe-to-toe with many other top laners and prevent them from ever just autoing minions to heal with their own Wriggle's.
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So SV is still doing FM on WW that means it works? Haven't seen many games of him doing it. He rushes for FM after wriggles correct? Though I would think going wriggles, phage, wits end then completing FM would be better. Same build just different order.
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On February 21 2012 04:54 BlackMagister wrote:
So SV is still doing FM on WW that means it works? Haven't seen many games of him doing it. He rushes for FM after wriggles correct? Though I would think going wriggles, phage, wits end then completing FM would be better. Same build just different order.
Nope, he rushes Wits End after wriggles. Then Phage and after that it depends, sometimes he'll go aegis, sometimes he'll go straight to mallet.
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In what instances is Spirit Visage a good item for WW? It still seems like a boss item for WW in theory, but nobody builds it anymore including me. I'm guessing it's just a good alternative to Frozen Heart when the enemy has not much AD or someone else on your team is building a Frozen Heart already.
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What do you guys think about magic pen quints instead of ArP? Seems all of his damage is magic besides auto attacks. He does auto a lot, but with wits + passive his autos are half magic dmg anyway, then his Q and Ult are magic. People always take the 10% magic pen in offense tree right?
Lately for junglewick I've been going 21/9/0, AS reds, armor yellows, scaling MR blue, and magic pen quints.
boots 3 -> Wriggles (sometimes just razor for faster wits) -> Wits -> Mallet (phage then FH if I need it) -> Bloodrazor or GA -> haven't gotten that far yet. How do you guys feel about a late void staff just so wits+bloodrazor can tear thru them? Would be really nice if there was a good tanky magic pen item without AP for Warwick, or maybe like a black cleaver but with MR shred instead. Malady seems interesting but the AP is kinda wasted and WW already has enough attack speed.
One game I managed to get wits/mallet/bloodrazor finished really fast and it was just hilarious how many different numbers popped above ppl's heads when I autoed 2.5/sec. Baron dies hilariously fast too.
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On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards. Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS
No items 101 18
Wriggles 120 28
Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS
No items 133 24
Wriggles 159 37
Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead.
2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
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On February 22 2012 00:03 Blyf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards. Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO. A few numbers on this: Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second): DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24 With level w activated (+40% attack speed): DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29 WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active. Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top? Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
Against people who hit you with physical attacks, yes, wriggle's does make a giant difference, especially on healing up off creeps because your assumption of 3 passive stacks is a really poor one when talking about healing off of CSing. You're going to get both these items anyway, and it's just a question of whether sustain/armor > damage/mres, but against strong sustain lanes, wriggle's first, especially since the ward is roughly equivalent to a gold/10 in terms of value generated over time.
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On February 22 2012 00:03 Blyf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards. Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO. A few numbers on this: Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second): DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24 With level w activated (+40% attack speed): DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29 WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active. Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top? Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
This doesn't take into account the reduced damage you receive with wriggles compared to wit's end against an AD top, nor does it take into account the fact that you will often open with cloth armor or at least buy cloth armor early rather often against an AD top, so buying wriggles comes to you much faster and smoother than wit's end. Wit's end is great but sometimes the null cloak component just isn't useful in lane. It's not just about how much damage you deal.
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On February 22 2012 02:09 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 00:03 Blyf wrote:On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards. Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO. A few numbers on this: Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second): DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24 With level w activated (+40% attack speed): DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29 WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active. Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top? Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help? This doesn't take into account the reduced damage you receive with wriggles compared to wit's end against an AD top, nor does it take into account the fact that you will often open with cloth armor or at least buy cloth armor early rather often against an AD top, so buying wriggles comes to you much faster and smoother than wit's end. Wit's end is great but sometimes the null cloak component just isn't useful in lane. It's not just about how much damage you deal.
the cloth can always be turned into an aegis.
I agree that standing dps math isn't terribly helpful with bruisers tho. It can kinda give an idea, but you're almost never in a position where you're just standing autoattacking each other for extended periods of time. Also, it's not terribly suprising that a 2k item outdps's a 1.6k item (in particular one with attackspeed).
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EPT
