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On February 22 2012 02:55 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 02:09 koreasilver wrote:On February 22 2012 00:03 Blyf wrote:On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards. Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO. A few numbers on this: Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second): DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24 With level w activated (+40% attack speed): DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29 WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active. Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top? Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help? This doesn't take into account the reduced damage you receive with wriggles compared to wit's end against an AD top, nor does it take into account the fact that you will often open with cloth armor or at least buy cloth armor early rather often against an AD top, so buying wriggles comes to you much faster and smoother than wit's end. Wit's end is great but sometimes the null cloak component just isn't useful in lane. It's not just about how much damage you deal. the cloth can always be turned into an aegis. I agree that standing dps math isn't terribly helpful with bruisers tho. It can kinda give an idea, but you're almost never in a position where you're just standing autoattacking each other for extended periods of time. Also, it's not terribly suprising that a 2k item outdps's a 1.6k item (in particular one with attackspeed).
Cloth can be turned into Frozen Heart.
Once you get a Wit's End you can force lots of auto-attack trades. Also, Wit's End makes your ultimate much stronger than Wriggle's does.
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Why are you arguing over that ? Can't you go clothe -> boots -> wriggles -> merc -> phage or wit's -> phage or wit's ?
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On February 22 2012 05:01 Erasme wrote:
Why are you arguing over that ? Can't you go clothe -> boots -> wriggles -> merc -> phage or wit's -> phage or wit's ?
the argument is whether or not wriggles is worth it
edit: and the post i was responding to made the claim that wriggles first allowed you to start cloth armor, which i disagreed with, as there are a lot of useful items you can build cloth into, even if u dont get wriggles.
for the record tho, imo you're gonna need wriggles unless you straight-up dominate the lane
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and I pose that it is in several matchups. WW's sustain took a nerf this patch and his damage went way the fuck up. covering that sustain nerf is very helpful in sustain matchups and you should be getting it at the very least vs. Irelia, Xin, Udyr, Yorick and Teemo, if not also Garen, Pantheon, Wukong, GP, and Riven.
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On February 22 2012 05:40 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 05:01 Erasme wrote:
Why are you arguing over that ? Can't you go clothe -> boots -> wriggles -> merc -> phage or wit's -> phage or wit's ? the argument is whether or not wriggles is worth it edit: and the post i was responding to made the claim that wriggles first allowed you to start cloth armor, which i disagreed with, as there are a lot of useful items you can build cloth into, even if u dont get wriggles. for the record tho, imo you're gonna need wriggles unless you straight-up dominate the lane
Uh, I never wrote that wriggles first allowed you to open cloth. I wrote that the fact that you do open cloth armor against AD tops just makes getting wriggles a very smooth affair if you do choose to do so. I often keep cloth as a component for FH. You didn't even read it properly.
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I noticed that you talk a lot about Xin, Smash. Is it because you like to play him (and thus know him well) or do you happen to see him even at your high Elo?
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On February 22 2012 09:13 Alaric wrote:
I noticed that you talk a lot about Xin, Smash. Is it because you like to play him (and thus know him well) or do you happen to see him even at your high Elo?
he plays xin
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On February 22 2012 01:44 Mogwai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 22 2012 00:03 Blyf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards. Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO. A few numbers on this: Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second): DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24 With level w activated (+40% attack speed): DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29 WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active. Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top? Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help? Against people who hit you with physical attacks, yes, wriggle's does make a giant difference, especially on healing up off creeps because your assumption of 3 passive stacks is a really poor one when talking about healing off of CSing. You're going to get both these items anyway, and it's just a question of whether sustain/armor > damage/mres, but against strong sustain lanes, wriggle's first, especially since the ward is roughly equivalent to a gold/10 in terms of value generated over time.
3 passive stacks is a bad assumption when healing off of CS, point taken. However I had this post in mind when replying:
You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them.
I thought the issue was that you need to be able to fight them heads up to assert lane dominance, for which Wit's does a (much) better job (it adds more than 3 times the dps that Wriggle's does, 4 without w active).
Gold values of Wriggle's excluding proc and wards:
AD: 943
Armor: 500
Lifesteal: 563
Main value is AD. This makes Wriggle's a very cost efficient item for characters that utilize the multiplicative scaling of AD. However on WW, with no crit or armor pen, the whole AD part of Wriggle's is undervalued. If you need sustain more than trading power, have you considered keeping it at a vamp scepter?
To my understanding, the argument for upgrading for vamp to Wriggle's in lane is that Wriggle's is cost efficient. The problem is that for WW, it is actually costinefficient.
How would you feel about Chain Mail + Vamp Scepter --> Recurve --> Wit's against AD sustain lanes? This should be at least equally strong early and would allow for faster Wit's End and Glacial Shroud.
Also, how to you open item-wise vs AD sustain laners?
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before I launch into anything I just wanted to say I appreciate how much thought you're putting into your posts, it's pretty refreshing compared to a lot of stuff on these forums.
On February 22 2012 19:55 Blyf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 01:44 Mogwai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 22 2012 00:03 Blyf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:30 Shiv. wrote:On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote:
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end.
Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference. I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial. Pretty much this. You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards. Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO. A few numbers on this: Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second): DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24 With level w activated (+40% attack speed): DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29 WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active. Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top? Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help? Against people who hit you with physical attacks, yes, wriggle's does make a giant difference, especially on healing up off creeps because your assumption of 3 passive stacks is a really poor one when talking about healing off of CSing. You're going to get both these items anyway, and it's just a question of whether sustain/armor > damage/mres, but against strong sustain lanes, wriggle's first, especially since the ward is roughly equivalent to a gold/10 in terms of value generated over time. 3 passive stacks is a bad assumption when healing off of CS, point taken. However I had this post in mind when replying: Show nested quote +You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. I thought the issue was that you need to be able to fight them heads up to assert lane dominance, for which Wit's does a ( much) better job (it adds more than 3 times the dps that Wriggle's does, 4 without w active).
I agree with the assessment that Wit's has a bigger impact on 1v1 brawls, but I think your numbers overstate it a bit. Firstly the armor from Wriggle's is more important in both these matchups than the MRes from Wit's, as in sustained fights, Irelia and Udyr both deal more physical damage than magical damage, not to mention that it also helps mitigate the damage you're going to take from creep aggro. But on top of that, comparing the damage benefits in a multiplicative way like that sensationalizes the difference. In the same light, I could just as easily say that wriggle's adds infinitely more sustain when you're not blindly auto-attacking and instead just last hitting creeps, but that doesn't do the complexity of the comparison justice.
cloth + 5 is also the safest opening in both these lanes and builds conveniently and quickly into wriggle's. I'd also like to say that I think that being able to successfully play passive vs. opposing aggression in sustain lanes is important due to the nature of top lane right now. going wit's means that in order to have lane presence, you need to be constantly fighting your opponent. this leaves you open to ganks and can have some rough consequences. being able to be flexible in how you play the lane (namely being able to ignore opposing aggression and stay high hp off of last hits) is an intangible benefit that should not be overlooked.
On February 22 2012 19:55 Blyf wrote:Gold values of Wriggle's excluding proc and wards:
AD: 943
Armor: 500
Lifesteal: 563
Main value is AD. This makes Wriggle's a very cost efficient item for characters that utilize the multiplicative scaling of AD. However on WW, with no crit or armor pen, the whole AD part of Wriggle's is undervalued. If you need sustain more than trading power, have you considered keeping it at a vamp scepter?
To my understanding, the argument for upgrading for vamp to Wriggle's in lane is that Wriggle's is cost efficient. The problem is that for WW, it is actually costinefficient.
Wriggle's is cost efficient, period. It's not the type of item that leans on the Crit/AD/AS/ArPen mechanics to make it good, as noted by how it's frequently in well thought out builds with wit's and mallet. AD is also just not undervalued on WW. He has a huge uptime on an 80% AS steroid. Sure, you're not building LW on WW, but he still does an awful lot of attacking and it's foolish to think that AD is undervalued because you're not building a PD and LW. Sorry, but you're taking your understanding of AD's multiplicative scaling too far here, especially on an item that from a damage perspective is nothing special.
I have thought of staying at vamp scepter on everyone I've built wriggle's on top lane and the simple fact of the matter is that wriggle's is a good investment and 9 times out of 10, I was just building that vamp scepter into a Wriggle's later in the game when I had 1150 gold ANYWAY. You're getting ~ 4 gold/10 in wards with a Wriggle's on an item with a raw 125+% cost efficiency that still sells for 70% value, it's a good investment and unless you're going for a Bloodthrister (not a good idea on most top laners), you should usually just turn that vamp into a wriggle's asap because the item is just so damn good.
On February 22 2012 19:55 Blyf wrote:How would you feel about Chain Mail + Vamp Scepter --> Recurve --> Wit's against AD sustain lanes? This should be at least equally strong early and would allow for faster Wit's End and Glacial Shroud.
Also, how to you open item-wise vs AD sustain laners?
Chain Vest + Vamp Scepter isn't as strong as wriggle's, it's not even close. and doing that only speeds up your wit's by 450 gold, why are you going so far out of your way to avoid building a good item and what do you even plan on doing with that vamp scepter?
As I said earlier, I open cloth vs. AD sustain.
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So I'm watching Lapaka and hes been testing out 9/0/21(magic pen in offense, xp bonus stuff in utility) with 6% bonus xp quints so he hits 6 as fast as possible. It looks pretty interesting.
I also like his CDR runes in combination with both CDR masteries giving him ~16% base CDR and also the 15% less cooldowns on summoners so his shit is up way more often. Smite/flash will have considerably more uptime which is good for and against counterjungling.
He also goes sorc boots sometimes which I was thinking about doing recently. So much of ww's damage is magic and without mpen runes you really need to get some where you can, and boots seem like the most logical place since you don't have to invest in useless AP and stuff thats on the other mpen items. You lose out on the MR and tenacity from mercs but wits gives plenty of MR anyway and I think the bonus damage from sorc will be worth having no mercs vs teams with not as much cc.
What do you guys think?
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im not sure if going the whole 9 yards with +xp bonus would be better than just going all +aspd/ad with 21/x/x and just having faster clear time -> faster 6.
i do so like warwick this patch. 7-0 in ranked and counting (;
long sword+pot
do wolves, blue, wraiths, red, golems (optional wraiths+wolves continuation)
*mininote: when you reach your red for the first time and see it empty, check both brushes. if enemy did wolves->blue->walked to your red there shouldn't be enough time for him to finish your red unless he didn't smite blue
recall when you hit 650 for boots+cloth armor
rinse and repeat till you hit 6
gank a lane, keep clearing jungles and gank when ult up
buy wits end
buy whatever defensive items you want (i like aegis for balanced enemy offense, zekes for ad top+ad bot, SV for magic heavy opponents, FH for physical heavy)
win
(note: i duo q with my friend who plays AP so we almost always get mid)
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I've noticed that when you walk to your red, find it missing, but it doesn't clear from the minimap, it's a sign that it's still being taken.
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Just want to jump in at one point and ask about it:
I agree with the assessment that Wit's has a bigger impact on 1v1 brawls, but I think your numbers overstate it a bit. Firstly the armor from Wriggle's is more important in both these matchups than the MRes from Wit's, as in sustained fights, Irelia and Udyr both deal more physical damage than magical damage.
Are you sure about armor being a really desired stat against those two specifically?
If we take Riven as an example armor would have an effect on 100% of her dps, so it becomes a no-brainer.
Against Irelia (assuming she maxes w and has no bonus AD from runes/masteries) about 22% at level 1 up to 47% at level 9 of her damage is true damage. That means compared to fighting a Riven any armor you build is 20-50% worthless.
For building defensively against her this this should mean that the value of armor and mres (durrobv) is decreased while the value of flat HP and CDR is increased.
Against Udyr the math gets trickier, because you'd need to know how long a straight in your face fight goes and he would probably get buttraped pre lvl 9 if he maxes Q over W, but the general idea stays similar. (for Irelia I'm just assuming she's not retarded and doesn't fight without W): His burst goes from 109 at level 1 up to 351 at level 9 and is pure magic damage.
Basicly this means if you fight him for less than 2s (lvl1)-4s(lvl9) mres would negate more of his damage than armor would. Even if we take his cooldown on Q into account (6s) it is STILL a shit load of magic damage from the proc even in prolonged fights.
Going back to:
Gold values of Wriggle's excluding proc and wards:
AD: 943
Armor: 500
Lifesteal: 563
Suddenly the armor is worth only about 250 gold vs Irelia and Udyr (assuming you don't sit in each others face for more than 4seconds vs Udyr).
While this only decreases the total value of Wriggles by about 12.5% (armor doesn't mean much when it comes to its value) it decreases the defensive worth of the item overall.
What I'm going at is this: You are usually advocating Wriggles vs AD and 2 dblades vs AP champs when it comes to most solo top champs and I absolutely agree with it, simply because it makes sense.
Against people who however are able to negate around 50% of any armor you build (compared to an AP champ which would negate 100% and where Dblades > Wriggles on stuff like WK) I'm not sure if Wriggles is the ideal option.
Basicly the reasoning for building wriggles against Brodyr/Relia rests on "Yeah, it's just half as effective as vs AD bruisers, but it STILL has so much more value than our other options."
Now, considering the above are you still sure it's the best option?
Which items would work better instead? I'm not sure. vs Udyr a combination of armor, flat health, regen and mres would make sense (Kindlegem/SV/Philo/Aegis), against Irelia a combination of armor, flat health and regen would make sense. The fact that mres is useless against her makes it tricky imo.
Edit: vs Irelia specifically, if you manage to not fight when her W is up all the above is bullshit. If you'd say that this is your goal in lane vs her, how to? I always feel that she's the one dictating when and where a fight goes down and not the WW when I'm playing the matchup.
Edit 2: To continue blyfs argument from above, we're now looking at Wriggles for WW as an item where AD is undervalued considering his general scaling (am I being retarded for thinking AD is less valueable on WW than let's say on WK or GP? If yes, tell me please. =P) and where armor is undervalued vs Irelia/Udyr. Now what it has going is the increased lifesteal, the ward and the proc.
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If you want to lane against irelia and udyr having the lifesteal from wriggles is probably a hell of a lot better than other options since you're not really going to win trades anyway.
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But isn't WW supposed to beat Irelia in lane? Her sustain with wriggles is note that much worse than WW's so I fail to see what that'd change if you lose trades and rely on Q to heal back more than her.
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running exp quints and 21 utility allows you to hit level 6 obscenely fast on ww/nocturne; I remember lapakaa hitting 6 before our solos when he did it in my game, was hilarious - it allows you to gank more frequently after you hit 6 (esp if you run cdr blues like lapakaa)
in terms of clear speeds i don't think running 21 offense allows you to clear significantly faster than just 9 offense given that the extra 11 offense is mainly for doing dmg to champions
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I just want to clarify.
On-Hit Procs on WW: High Value. Synergize with ult and W, and drives itemization towards procing his passive more. Good stuff.
AS on WW: High/Average Value. Synergizes well with his passive, but has no synergy with his ult. Also for balanced auto-attack damage, pure AS is undervalued from his W, although this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that On-Hit procs are worth so much on him.
AD on WW: Average Value. No synergy with his passive, low synergy with his ult, good synergy with his W.
Crit/ArPen on WW: Average/Low Value. No synergy with his passive, no synergy with his ult, good synergy with his W.
What this means is that while he doesn't have the AD Scaling of a wukong or riven, he still gets a lot from having some AD.
It's also a naive approach to say that the armor is half value vs. Irelia/Udyr. Basically, they either burst -> disengage, in which case wit's isn't really helping your cause since you can't build up the passive stacks to gain a lot from the AS and now you're trying to heal that damage off without any lifesteal, or they stand and fight in which case physical damage will make up considerably more than 50% of their damage output, not to metion the added output from creep aggro. In either case, wriggle's is good and bringing a lot to the table. When you're saying you need a good mix of HP/HPregen/Armor/MRes all I can think is that ww heals a ton via passive + wriggle's + Q, and with wriggle's + wit's end, you get everything you need and I don't even understand the argument anymore.
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Mhmm... basicly my problem can be reduced to this:
vs a pure AD top Wriggles is clearly the best option.
if we play vs a pure AP top we'd say that 2x Dblade > Wriggles on most people solo top. (WK/GP etc)
For me that means that vs Udyr both options are mediocre cause his damage is so well spread out.
Irelia is a special case because her damage is distributed between AD and tru dmg so mres makes no sense at all anyway.
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You're not understanding the situation. Udyr and especially irelia run in and burst you and easily outtrade you meaning there's no items you can make that are going to make you win the trade. The thing is when their shit is on CD you can heal up with wriggles so even if the armour isn't totally efficient wits end doesn't really help you since the ww passive nerf it's not enough to keep you healthy.
And I can't see how WW beats irelia. Your q damage gets healed up so fast haha.
If you look at it this way, during trades you heal up a decent amount attacking them and since irelia does true damage you know health is the only way to counter that aside from not getting hit. (Frozen/randuins)
I feel like warwick is meant to win the lane by out harassing with his Q in lane, since he heals and harasses, and trades decently. The combination of sustain+insane trading counters that in lane which irelia and udyr are best at.
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So this is more about minimizing damage and keeping the ability to farm without getting buttraped?
k, makes sense then. <3
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EPT
