EPT[Champion] Nasus - Page 25
| Forum Index > LoL Strategy |
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
| ||
|
trollbone
France1905 Posts
| ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
kennen doesnt really counter either, not sure about darius. vlad and darius are the better listing although they are both extrmeely easy to gank meaning it shifts the game much more to the junglers and I think nasus is OK against them slow reduction +15 ms vs armour and auto reduction usually favours tabi for nasus i think but not always I rarely buy the enchant on nasus until lategame so i defintely wouldn't get MS if I don't want that then again it might be worth getting it, but it depends on the CC, diminishing returns usually means if you can't reach with your normal speed you are probably getting slowed or cc in which case the ms sucks anyway The problem with "mix/matching" your quints is that LoL isn't like pizza. You can't just throw whatever in because it tastes good. There has to be a reason. If you justify 1st slot quint as lifesteal, what changes to make 2nd or 3rd slot not worth it? If you justify taking 1 slot ms, why not 2 or 3? Do you need exactly 2 lifesteal quints to survive lane? But for surviving lane resist quints are probably better so why take them at all? Why not 1 ms quint and 2 armour quints? If there isn't a mathematical breaking point somewhere you are just guessing what you're doing, and there's no concrete way to tell because factors like how well you've eaten that day will affect the lane phase more than the difference between having 1 more LS quints or 1 more MS quint because its so small. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
-->The reason to pick all the same quints is because is something is good you want as much of it as possible until something else gets better. You get the best stat until its not the best. That's the reason for stacking the same quints. You've yet to give me any real argument as to why you think lifesteal quints are superior. You can appeal to authority all you want but don't try to play it off as anything other than blind trust. The pros do things for a good reason. The good reason is that lifesteal quints are good. But it might not be the right reason. Maybe AD quints are better, maybe resist quints are better. The difference is unlikely to be game changing but I guarantee none of the players you listed have given nasus as much thought as you have and then just run whatever they think seems right when they play him 1 in every 100 games. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 17 2013 10:31 JimmiC wrote: You just think you are right cause you think you are right no amount of proof is going to prove it. Your argument about the quints is a perfect example. It makes no sense, Some times there is more then one thing that is great, thats why you mix it. OR you only need a certain amount to accomplish something and not more. AND with that one it's easy to see your wrong because it;s not champ dependent and pros have thought a ton into the pros they play a lot and they often run multiple kinds of quints. This is an unreasonable accusation. I've given lots of reasoning for why I think resist quints are probably best. If I were basing it off what I "feel" is the strongest, I would certainly get MS/LS as well. (all ms or all ls) You arguments have been simply a mix of indignation confusion and pointing out that having X stat is useful for X reason. You never compared the alternatives at all your argument for mixing MS and LS quints smacks more of a the "WHY NOT BOTH" meme as opposed to science. On November 17 2013 10:31 JimmiC wrote: Now he's why lifesteal is good on nasus. AS per voyboy "Quintessences: Lifesteal. With Lifesteal quints, you'll be allowed to sustain in lane. During the lategame, lifesteal quints will aid you in 1v1 duels since other champions will not be able to sustain as well as you do." He also feels "Quintessences: Most other quintessences will fit fine here and most of the time it comes down to team composition and preferences. Movement Speed quintessences are great for Nasus since kiting is his biggest weakness. AD quints also work well with last-hitting for stacking Siphoning Strike. " I agree, but since he ahas more authority I'll defer to his words. This is an explanation for why lifesteal quints are good, not why they're better than all the alternatives. He also states he thinks other quints fit fine. His argument for MS quints I think is faulty just because of the nature of kiting champs usually using slows and slows raping MS bonuses. On November 17 2013 10:31 JimmiC wrote: Heres what freaky4life says, he's a diamond 1 Nasus main. 3x lifesteal: Good choice, if you like building either Iceborn Gauntlet or Philostone into Shurelyas this is the ideal choice. Take these if you go for the defensive tree. But he likes 1 cdr 2 LS or 2 LS 1CDR better heres why 2x CDR 1x Lifesteal This is my favourite set up, here are my reasons: 1. You get 3% CDR in offense tree, 6% in utility tree, 7,47% from glpyhs addint up to 16,47%, having 2 CDR quints give you 19,81% which is where you wanna be to get 40% CDR easily 2. Lifesteal is the best rune for Toplane Nasus in every other build, any other purpose, since I don't 3 CDR quints I take lifesteal to better my sustain 3. Getting more early CDR allows you to stack your q more, sustain more and CS easier You want to use this versus everything but heavy AD teams who rely on abilites to deal the majority of their damage. 1x CDR 2 X Lifesteal If you play versus a full ad team you have to adapt your Runes, Mastery and your item build since you won't build Spirit Visage. Man so many that disagree with you, but I'm sure they are bad, I mean they mix quints so they must be those pros and such who don't understand the game like you. The reason he's mixing quints here is not because of the pizza effect which im arguing; he has specific points at which the quints become devalued. Once he reaches his planned CDR level with his build, he doesn't need any more CDR because its hard capped at 40%. He just replaces any spare slots with lifesteal because there are what are he sees as standard. On November 17 2013 10:31 JimmiC wrote: Heres Hyfe, He's also diamond 1 lets here what he has to say, surely he will say resists. Lifesteal quints on Nasus contribute to the insane lane sustain that people often rage about. The scaling damage on your Q winds up making these stronger than hp5 quints generally by lvl 4 or so. With a 14/17/20% lifesteal passive, these quints allow you to start with 20% lifesteal scaling to 26% endgame. Auto attack minions to regen whenever possible (while keeping the wave position under control) and be sure to utilize the auto-attack reset on Q to double-tap Q farm minions to get the full benefit of these and your passive. Note that there is a lot of leeway when it comes to Nasus quints, as there are a handful of viable options. You'll notice for my other rune sets I only list 1 or 2 alternatives. For quints, there are half a dozen good options. It really comes down to personal preference and choosing a balance between taking something to strengthen your early game and something that will remain useful later. I've run every option I will list below at some point (and some others), and each of them has their merits. Do what works for you. Alternatives: Movespeed – Perhaps more beneficial in the long run but not as strong in the lane HP/5 – Safest and strongest lane sustain for the very early levels Flat AD – Same idea as the AD reds, makes it much easier to last hit under tower in lane Flat armor – Mix in vs scary AD lanes Flat MR – Mix in vs scary caster lanes Eureeka! we found one guy who says it's fine to MIX IN a armor or MR quint against certain lanes. But should we trust him? He says to mix in and apparently thats bad. Mixing in is most likely bad. (bad as in suboptimal, we're talking 1-2% less efficient) Technically when it comes to mulitplicatively scaling things the most effective is a balance. However that doesn't mean balance in runes and nowhere else. Since you have such high passive lifesteal, and free health and tend to buy lots of pots, all of those factors contribute to resists being better, to keep the optimal level you'd expect resists to be optimal. In any case, there's no point going over all potential advantages of resists quints like 4 times a page. On November 17 2013 10:31 JimmiC wrote: Heres why I like Life steal quints and usually do 2 with 1 ms. however I may just run 3, we will see. Because Life steal helps you sustain, HUGE, yes you have it, it works great with you and thats why more is better. Its awesome to Bait people in and then lifestreal your self alive. Its great to barely survive then heal back up before the jungler can come and finish you off, letting stay in lane and further farm Q and gain xp. Its also great for when you can actually fight with people cause you can just Q them any time they get close and then back off and farm you self full again while they are getting Chunked. Not only is it effective but it's a super fun way to play. Look, I get you are a special kind of arrogant or stubborn, hence the "these guys don't nasus like I do" attitude, but the pros eat drink and sleep this game, they got a pretty good handle on it. So I really don't expect you to change your mind. But to the other readers. Try out the LS quints. Its fun, works great in lane to sustain, works great in 1v1's and it works great even when running cause u can just Q people once and heal up as u run, or a minion you happen to run by. I mean you can run all armor or MR quints 2 and think your smarter then everyone else. Or you can try what has worked more me and basically every Top player who plays Nasus. Up to you. Lifesteal helps you sustain. You have lifesteal. You are getting more lifesteal from runes. Why not buy vamp sceptre every game. When do you decide to stop? Sure lifesteal is good, but most likely resists are even better. Every post you mentioned bar one didn't even consider resist quints. Have you ever thought it's because people probably don't even know they exist because almost no other champion would want to use them over AD/AP? There's a difference between not mentioning something because it's terrible and because you haven't even thought about it. Oh, and the utility tree+cdr glyphs+cdr quints to get like 20% cdr at level 1 is something I was mulling over for a while. I decided it probably wasn't worth all the sacrifices at least unless you know you're having an easy lane. But you get so many benefits from being tanky that help you all game anyway, enough that getting 100 more in Q or something mightn't be that much better and your early game is a lot weaker if you dedicate half your rune slots and all your mastery points into getting cdr. | ||
|
iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Lol. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/summoner/euw/20744583 | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Similarly you stop getting lifesteal when you decide it won't help you as much as buying anything else that you consider to be better. I'm not discounting what you say, it's just you havent sent anything that has any merit in argument terms. You say they're good but everyone knows lifesteal is good. It is better than the alternatives is the important question. I'm not going to say, "I prefer X but you guys go and do whatever follows your dreams murica #salutethestarsnstripes". I'm going to say what I think and if anyone has a good argument to convince me otherwise I'll then say that's the best option. The goal is to give the best advice possible, not some politically correct bullshit where you can use whatever you feel like because some people disagree with me. As I said, if you are mixing quints you need a proper reason. When 2 is good why is 3 not better? In CDRs case, if you're hitting the hard cap at 2, then the 3rd is wildly cost inefficent once you finish your cdr item, so then thats why the 3rd is not better. That's a solid reason and you don't seem to understand the difference between that and your case. On November 17 2013 10:31 JimmiC wrote: "I put this because you stated no one had thought about nasus as much as you" What? I never said this at all. I can say with absolute certainty that lots of other people have thought about nasus more. I think I said that it was most likely you thought about nasus more than the pros you cited who probably play nasus in <1% of their games and decide on runes of masteries while talking with their fans in stream chat and avoiding porn links. edit 2; nvm i couldn't see the doublepost for some reason wat | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 17 2013 11:54 JimmiC wrote: If I removed any of my post it was an accident. And I have given reasons why life steal is better. As have Pro's. But you argue no because you have some already, I point out he has armor already. You argue thats good, so really it doesn't matter what I say. You have only given reasons why lifesteal is good, not better. A+ for the essay but it doesn't prove anything. The pros havent either, they all completely ignored alternatives and I doubt they ever thought of using resist quints. On November 17 2013 11:54 JimmiC wrote: Lets say you know 10 really smart people and the 7th smartest says one thing. The other 9 say something different. No matter how much the 7th says or how loud I'm going with other 9. Especially after I have tried what the 7th said and found it doesn't work as well. wat On November 17 2013 11:54 JimmiC wrote: As for you pizza theory its also crazy A if one thing is better you just want more of that one thing, then that should work for pizza too. what ever is your one favorite topping you should just have. If you like pepperoni, forget the cheese even just add more pepperoni it will be better. But in LOL the argument is just as silly its why you buy different stats, through different items always. If your's was right every one would buy just one stat. Like only AD or only Health. AND if it's so bad to do, why do so many pro's do it. Oh yeah, you are smarter then all of them. For I think the third time you fail to correctly interpret the situation. The optimal is usually some form of a balance. There's an equilibrium. However, once you're away from equilibrium, which almost everyone is most of the time, you want to strive to reach it. In laning phase everything is really heavily weighted toward resistance stats as well as AD because of the long time spent in lane the effective amount of health you have is effected by regen and potions and leveling up giving you more hp everytime. (and AD because of last hitting+the large % increase dps increase of getting more ad and how often you auto in lane compared to casting spells. Later on theres a lot more spell casting for anyone except adcs) When it comes to runes, they are usually a small nudge either way. If they are a small nudge you want to nudge toward getting your balance right. It's all about cost effectiveness. Resists might be optimal but getting AD on reds is more cost effective by far so it outweighs the fact that resists are better per point of gold. Lifesteal is a stat most tank's don't get. Some bruisers might get a bilgewater or a few dorans, but most won't go further. Nasus automatically has 14-20% lifesteal. This is a relatively high amount and it automatically improves the effect of resistance stat because it gives you health the longer you are in lane. Now if you had 200 armour lifesteal would become very strong in lane because you gain triple value from it, however you already have 20% lifesteal and you won't reach 200 armour any time early anyway. For example going from 1 to 3 LS quints on an average champ triples the amount you heal from lifesteal. Resists make it very slightly better. Going from 20% to 26% is a 30% increase in lifesteal which is 10x less than that tripling. Resists are already at a premium on nasus because of that original lifesteal+R hp+pots+regen and lifesteal is devalued on him compared to any other champ. Because you start at 50 armour is something which is pretty low, the optimal defense stat is most likely to be armour much more than lifesteal. Similarly ADCs tend to get some lifesteal but they don't stack it. People who did stack BTs did it for the AD. If you have 50% lifesteal and 300 AD you are healing 150 per hitxamounts of hits per second. Increasing 20% lifesteal gives you 60 more hp per hit, but gaining 60 AD gives you 30 more hp per hit (so effectively 10%) as well as increasing your dps by a 60x1.crit%xcritdmgxattacks per second. So lifesteal didn't get worse, its just everything else got better. It's the same situation. I don't want to turn this into a math tutorial but these concepts are integral to the game and explain a lot of game mechanics such as snowballing and late game scaling. | ||
|
krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
| ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
| ||
|
Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
| ||
|
NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On November 17 2013 12:41 JimmiC wrote: Also Life steal is better because it provides sustain where armor doens't I didn't think I needed to be that simple. I don't get bursted down as nasus since I know the match ups, so when they do damage I sustain my health back up. There is a point that Slayer91 made and you seem to miss it completly. Nasus already has life steal. Taking LS quints doesn't suddenly gives him LS, it just improves it by some amount. And the armor also improves it by some amount (because each HP you'll get back is worth more EHP). The % increase will be higher for LS quints, but improving LS is all the LS quints do. The armor will also affect the EHP you get from your base health, items, pots and your ult. | ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 17 2013 17:03 Sufficiency wrote: Ugh. I would say Nasus has a very easy time against Kennen, and very rough time against Vlad and Singed. I wouldn't say kennen is very easy, or vlad is very rough, but kennen is easier than vlad but also safer for kennen, but I have no idea why you think you have a hard time against singed unless you prefer to play singed in mid/lategame. Singed might actually have a lot more trouble since his ult doesn't have and CC reduction so he has alot more trouble proxy farming. On November 17 2013 12:41 JimmiC wrote: I'm gonna stick to the easiest thing you say is a fact that is wrong, and hope that others will see that perhaps other "facts" you say are also not Facts. People who use mixed quints that I quickly looked up. Cpt Jack, Dyrus, Imp, Locodoco, Greentea, Madlife, Maknoon (who uses life steal on nasus btw) Raven, Voyboy, Xpeke, and so on and so on. But I'm sure you are right all the same quints are better. You haven't mentioned anything about facts you just namedropped some players and didn't even mention what quints they are mixing so I could either give reasoning why mixing them is a good idea or why I think their rune choices are sub optimal at least. At least that way you could have more pro back up that way. On November 17 2013 12:41 JimmiC wrote: Also Life steal is better because it provides sustain where armor doens't I didn't think I needed to be that simple. I don't get bursted down as nasus since I know the match ups, so when they do damage I sustain my health back up. Armour provides sustain indirectly. How can you not see this? It gives you effective HP from your current lifesteal, your current hp, your ult health boost, how much you heal from pots, how much you heal from level ups, and how much you heal from levels. | ||
| ||
