EPT[Champion] Nasus - Page 23
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Nobody kills the dog anymore, why not just outscale him? Poppy can't lose to him, can she? I want try.. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On November 14 2013 04:17 krndandaman wrote: hard to respond to both quotes so I'll try to respond to both: 1) You didn't say anything about being zoned but as a weaker champion (nasus) you're going to get zoned (to an extent) or take harass. By going resists you're implying you're going to take harass, which imo, is a bad way to play the matchup in weak vs strong early. I'd rather get zoned for a bit, take less to 0 harass while getting CS. With your set up you will probably get a bit more exp, but much less cs. It's essentially pick one over two to prioritize, and I choose cs because you're going to be behind in levels anyways. Faster items will help you survive the level gap anyways. - Nope, I'm suggesting AD quints give a stronger midgame AND early game. You misread. GP10 quints are bad. 12mr/armor is safe enough for the pros against the best, why wouldn't it be safe enough for you? I'm not arguing that its bad, I'm saying ad is more optimal. Not 8 AD, I also think you should go AD marks if you're going AD so 15 ad. 15ad vs +12mr/8armor or +20armor. In just terms of cost effectiveness that's 600g vs 400g. You're starting 200g behind from level 1. I'm assuming you get TP as nasus so if you are getting bullied hard you can just TP back and buy a cloth armor or mantle or whatever you need. You'll have more stats anyways especially with more last hits. 2) Yes it's not that good. Why else would every progamer not have it when just 2 out of the 3 people here think it's optimal. Cause they probably tried it and they don't like it. I'm not 100% sure on the math but I recall the difference in %dmg reduced from the 20 extra armor at level 1 from not having the extra armor was something like ~5%? Which is not important compared to the 15 extra ad you could have. 3) Assuming pre 6 ganks ofc. so no R dps, and E will be level 1. Q/autos is your only form of damage then. When I see someone go full resist runes, I know I'm pretty damn safe pre 6 and can be aggressive. Otherwise, I'm a bit more careful. Anyways this isn't a big reason for why I and others go AD, just something small. I wouldn't delve into this too much. 1) Ad quints give you 6,75 ad. That's not worth 600g. Of course everyone expects ad marks + quints to be worth more than resists quints alone. 3) In the previous post I quoted you managed to say that 3 ad quints (6,75 ad, i'll say it again) will add ~90 damage in just 3 autoattacks. And you seem to believe it's really the case. You "wouldn't delve into this too much" but maybe you should  | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On November 14 2013 09:13 krndandaman wrote: I included marks/quints for both. I'm assuming you go full resists for marks/quints because I go full marks/quints for AD. Are you saying you go ad marks and resist quints? +15 AD = 600 g. +20 armor/mr = 400g (quints+marks). 3) Why? It is the least important of all reasons to go ad (mainly because its dependent on junglers and not much opportunity for ganks in the first place with a weak laner). I mean by all means if you want to bust out the calculations, go for it. But points 1 and 2 are the main reasons. Please, I have yet to see any reasoning from you. Slayers91 at least explains his reasoning, you I have no idea. I would use ad marks, not resist marks. You need a very good reason to use secondary marks over primary marks. Gold efficiency is now out of the picture in point 1. I'd rather walk up the the creeps once in a while to last hit while getting harrassed rather than getting zoned until the wave is under my tower. Now hear me out about point 2. Many pros are young people who dropped out of school to play full time. Many of them are clueless about a lot of things regarless items/spells. Many of them don't even read the patchnotes. Many of them have no idea about what they do with their rune pages and will just copy others blindly. We've seen pros run ad marks and quints + 1 ad glyphs to "get the extra ad" when they actually don't get it. Then you decided that they didn't use resists quints because it's bad, and you explained to us it's bad because "I'm not 100% sure on the math but I recall the difference in %dmg reduced from the 20 extra armor at level 1 from not having the extra armor was something like ~5%?" And here I am, facepalming, because your sentence doesn't help deciding at all. Each % damage reduction is not worth as much as the others. Saying we get a 5% increase gives zero clue about how good or bad it is. I hope now you understand better why I'm not sold about point 2 being a good reason. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 14 2013 04:17 krndandaman wrote: hard to respond to both quotes so I'll try to respond to both: 1) You didn't say anything about being zoned but as a weaker champion (nasus) you're going to get zoned (to an extent) or take harass. By going resists you're implying you're going to take harass, which imo, is a bad way to play the matchup in weak vs strong early. I'd rather get zoned for a bit, take less to 0 harass while getting CS. With your set up you will probably get a bit more exp, but much less cs. It's essentially pick one over two to prioritize, and I choose cs because you're going to be behind in levels anyways. Faster items will help you survive the level gap anyways. - Nope, I'm suggesting AD quints give a stronger midgame AND early game. You misread. GP10 quints are bad. 12mr/armor is safe enough for the pros against the best, why wouldn't it be safe enough for you? I'm not arguing that its bad, I'm saying ad is more optimal. Not 8 AD, I also think you should go AD marks if you're going AD so 15 ad. 15ad vs +12mr/8armor or +20armor. In just terms of cost effectiveness that's 600g vs 400g. You're starting 200g behind from level 1. I'm assuming you get TP as nasus so if you are getting bullied hard you can just TP back and buy a cloth armor or mantle or whatever you need. You'll have more stats anyways especially with more last hits. 2) Yes it's not that good. Why else would every progamer not have it when just 2 out of the 3 people here think it's optimal. Cause they probably tried it and they don't like it. I'm not 100% sure on the math but I recall the difference in %dmg reduced from the 20 extra armor at level 1 from not having the extra armor was something like ~5%? Which is not important compared to the 15 extra ad you could have. 3) Assuming pre 6 ganks ofc. so no R dps, and E will be level 1. Q/autos is your only form of damage then. When I see someone go full resist runes, I know I'm pretty damn safe pre 6 and can be aggressive. Otherwise, I'm a bit more careful. Anyways this isn't a big reason for why I and others go AD, just something small. I wouldn't delve into this too much. also, there have been a decent amount of pro nasus games since 2 patches ago (around worlds). I recall seeing nasus in worlds at least 3 times for instance and one or two before that in OGN. None of them had a riven opponent though- it was mostly jax, singed, shen, vlad. All went AD iirc. Spectate a few high elo korean-na players as well, I'm pretty sure they generally go ad red/quint. I'm not gonna say give up thinking for yourself, but generally pros know what they're doing and if they don't do something it's not because they missed it. First off, to clear up, on marks I'm running AD all the time. I would consider using armpen if I expect an easy lane but mostly I don't bother thinking too much about it. The reward for running resist marks is way too small. -It's impossible to not take harass. Even at tower you will take harass. Getting zoned is expected but losing XP is not, if are you zoned and the lane isn't pushing your way you make a big mistake somewhere. You can sometimes choose to trade a cs for some harass but you will get harassed to some extent anyway. Often trading a cs for harass is a bonus because the lane will push harder so you might lose less cs to non tower along the line, giving you more chances to last hit at the tower -I doubt the pros are worrying about their rune set up too much either. AD quints are solid against everyone. Against singed and vlad who would be pushing a lot AD quints might be a good idea (but maybe MR is needed against vlad). Against jax and shen you definitely prefer magic resist because of the shen q harass and jax magic burst, to win those lanes you want magic resist a lot more. -In terms of how armour/magic resist work. The easiest way to think about it is that each 1 armour gives you 1% of your hp in damage taken needed to kill you. If you have 1k hp the extra 12 resists is 120 more damage needed to kill you. You might think 1k hp is a bit high, but take into account lifesteal and regen, and you can expect to be able have a total soak of maybe 1-1.5k hp before you go back for the first time, so its raw damage soaked, so you can absorb a couple more spells safely. Once you go back and we're talking even more lifesteal and you're buying 5 potions and if you're going spirit visage even more regen you might be soaking 500~ extra damage or something from those quints. It's a pretty big difference. I might even be underestimating a lot. 5 pots is already 750 bonus hp and I guess if you have 20 hp5 that's like 1k more hp over a 5 min period +lifesteal+level hp healing+your ult (it counts to help on your ult because 300 bonus hp scales with the mr too) we might be talking a sick amount of extra damage soaked for just quint choice. You can argue the AD quints give you better return because of the extra cs you'll get but you resists is your best defense stat anyway so you'll only be buying that ~250 gold worth of resists with those extra cs anyway, and being able to soak more damage lets you get more cs also. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On November 14 2013 04:56 iCanada wrote: Counter picking nasus with poppy, good idea or no? Nobody kills the dog anymore, why not just outscale him? Poppy can't lose to him, can she? I want try.. Imo Poppy is a solid counterpick to Nasus. She CAN kill him, and usually outtrades him, but the scaling is the big thing. Nobody scales as hard as a farmed Poppy (well, Vayne does) - and the is nothing Nasus can do to prevent this without jungler intervention. Poppy Q > Nasus Q during almost the entire game, and she will outtrade him - making his sustain less of a factor. A few other factors that swings the matchup in Poppys favor: Poppy is more tanky early game, and a lot of this is free armor. Wither is not very effective for outtrading Poppy, due to her AA reset burst and gapcloser. Poppy has an easy time with defense building only armor, while Nasus needs mixed health, armor and MR. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I've played both sides and its not fun for poppy. Nasus shouldn't build HP against poppy, since she has %hp damage and his R is enough to survive a burst, I think glacial-->frozen fist is the best route because it forces poppy to all in and nasus can easily get away with his W and then force poppy out of lane after he sustains back to full and pops R. I can see your reasoning but it turns out the subtleties of lane don't suit poppy in this match up. (Having no good way of chasing or harassing vs a CC champ, being forced to all in but having no way to force the all in) | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
It all depends on how well you can block poppy from killing someone early and if you can then poppy is pretty killable. I think poppys weak laning phase means she is underexperimented with though, but I wouldn't pick her against nasus, if you're going to lose might as well lose to someone who doesn't scale so well. | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On November 14 2013 19:42 krndandaman wrote: Ok, that's not as bad then. I would think the diff between resist quints and ad quints (while going ad marks) is minimal. More preference in playstyle, really. AD quints are still more gold efficient than MR/Armor though. Double actually. Taking long sword as reference, ad quints are worth 270 gold. Taking cloth armor as reference, armor quints are worth 255,6 gold. Taking NMM as reference, MR quints are worth 240g. What does that "double actually" mean? On November 14 2013 19:42 krndandaman wrote: Idk what pros you are referring to (wtf ad glyph). My first reference for runes are the korean pros as they are known to be pretty knowledgeable about their rune choices and set the standard for runes. I use NA/EU pros on probuilder as a double check. I can't remember which pros used to recommend using one ad glyph, but I've seen it in a few guides. It disappeared when people started using LS quints. I still remember score advocating using one crit chance mark (in one of the riot Korea videos), when while it has almost no impact, it's not as effcient in the long run as using only ad marks. On November 14 2013 19:42 krndandaman wrote: What do you mean? If +20 armor only decreases phys damage taken by 5% that's ~4 damage off an auto attack of someone with 80 ad. Is that worth being unable to 1 aa lasthit under tower? Probably not. That was the point I was trying to make. Going from 0% reduction to 1% reduction has almost no impact, you're still more or less taking full damage. Going from 98% to 99% reduction doubles your EHP (you cut eh damage taken by half) if they have no penetration. Each % doesn't have the same impact, and each extra % require extra resist to be achieved. | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On November 15 2013 10:16 krndandaman wrote: Woops, you're right. Not double, forgot to take out marks. 305.2 and 255.6 are the values. Still around 20% more value. That's pretty bad lol, I thought it was known that rune values don't round up. As for the one crit chance mark, I personally don't use it but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. It's not as consistent as ad and it definitely has a lesser expected value, but it has decent rewards if you get that lucky 1% crit off in lane. I remember him mentioning a single lucky crit can turn a lane into your favor. I thought it was the opposite, don't resists get worse the more you have (as in needing more resists to increase damage reduction % at higher percentages)? That was more of what I was getting at. Do you take TP on nasus though? Why wouldn't you get the ability to 1 aa lasthit minions and use the free back to get resists if you get bullied out of lane? 6.75/10*400 = 270, not 305.2  Yellowpete stole snoopeh's red buff at level 1 in a LCS game because he got a random crit on his last auto while helping | ||
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