Well the problem for us was "do we let her hit us not that hard, but for a long time, or do we focus her and get hit harder by the carries?". She wasn't a threat, she was just annoying, whereas whenever I dived their carry they knew they'd have to focus me or peel me if they didn't want him to die.
The suppression only allowed us to kill the carry unhindered, and then she wouldn't pose a threat all by herself. While, even without Caitlyn, I'd still be menacing to them (not 1v4 obviously, but focusing Malz would mean run the risk of almost instantly losing one squishy to me).

Granted, that Irelia had like 3.7K HP but 105 arm/res max, while I had only 2500 HP but 180 in each def. But since you're limited to 6 slots...

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

September 30 2011 14:11 GMT

#102

On September 30 2011 11:11 Alaric wrote:
Granted, that Irelia had like 3.7K HP but 105 arm/res max

There's your problem.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

September 30 2011 15:27 GMT

#103

Just coming in here to say I think Akali completely destroys Irelia in lane, so if I ever think I'm cool enough to pull that off again on stream, someone please remind me that some totally mediocre Akali went like 50-0 in lane vs. me.

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

September 30 2011 15:39 GMT

#104

Even if you go W>E?

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

September 30 2011 15:46 GMT

#105

I always go W > E. She just hits you too fucking hard and you can't retaliate vs. her W. Unless I horribly misplayed the matchup (entirely possible), it just seems like you're in trouble starting at level 2 and from there you're screwed for way too long and it just snowballs.

NeoIllusions

United States37500 Posts

September 30 2011 15:59 GMT

#106

I don't like max'ing E anymore either. W all the way.

arthur

United Kingdom488 Posts

September 30 2011 16:03 GMT

#107

I assumed W>Q was the best for offensive and W>E best for defensive;
Didn't think people would max E first at all...

jtype

England2167 Posts

September 30 2011 16:03 GMT

#108

The problem is, your initial spell combo always gives you a false hope of the damage you can do against her and you never really get a chance to get off many autos, so it's a case of comboing her and then backing off, hoping that she won't try to answer with some damage of her own. Hardly ever works out that way though. Unless you really want to commit to killing her with your ult and ignite or whatever. Then you have to hope to get lucky and hit her in her smoke screen with the ult...

Slayer91

Ireland23465 Posts

September 30 2011 16:18 GMT

#109

Are you running full MR page? Like, if you have MR quints, blues, and start null magic-->Chalice I don't see what she can do to push you out of lane. Akali falls off a lot against bruisers after first few levels. Everytime she gets you lower with harass you can just E to stun and W, 2 hits of that, Q if you're lucky and have the mana when she stealths, and then once her stealth is on CD she can't really get free trades off you.

Not totally sure, but never remember having problems against akali.

The thing with akali is you want to trade with 1 CD of her Q but run away before she gets the second, it gets a bit crazy when she hits 6 though. Also if akali gets ahead and you can't afford to try to fight back you're kinda screwed.

You should see reginalds akali vs hotshot udyr, hotshot was almost dying trying to farm at tower but once he had full health even though he didn't get any cs (enough for boots and longsword) once they were both full he started winning trades.

And yeah, maxing anything before W is pretty stupid. Lifesteal is 1000x better in t.lane than in teamfights, where you heal for like maybe 100 for the important part of the teamfigh

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

September 30 2011 16:40 GMT

#110

I would try maxing Q/E over W against Akali to be honest. I dun think you can win the sustain fight, so you're better off trying to counterburst her. IMO anyways.

Edit:
Not as a solution obviously, just a thought.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

September 30 2011 17:03 GMT

#111

On October 01 2011 01:18 Slayer91 wrote:
Are you running full MR page? Like, if you have MR quints, blues, and start null magic-->Chalice I don't see what she can do to push you out of lane. Akali falls off a lot against bruisers after first few levels. Everytime she gets you lower with harass you can just E to stun and W, 2 hits of that, Q if you're lucky and have the mana when she stealths, and then once her stealth is on CD she can't really get free trades off you.

Not totally sure, but never remember having problems against akali.

The thing with akali is you want to trade with 1 CD of her Q but run away before she gets the second, it gets a bit crazy when she hits 6 though. Also if akali gets ahead and you can't afford to try to fight back you're kinda screwed.

You should see reginalds akali vs hotshot udyr, hotshot was almost dying trying to farm at tower but once he had full health even though he didn't get any cs (enough for boots and longsword) once they were both full he started winning trades.

And yeah, maxing anything before W is pretty stupid. Lifesteal is 1000x better in t.lane than in teamfights, where you heal for like maybe 100 for the important part of the teamfigh

I'm running my generalized tanky runes which give me like 52 or 54 or something starting mres. I opened regrowth, which may have been part of the problem, and it also might've been the case that I tried to commit to a fight and then saw their shaco coming and started running and got destroyed, but it just snowballs so hard after that that I saw no way back into the lane and got raped for the entire game.

arnath

United States1317 Posts

September 30 2011 17:03 GMT

#112

How are you counter-bursting her though? If she runs up and Q->autos you and then uses W to hide, by the time her W is up, her Q will be back off cooldown so even if you Q->E her, she's getting 2 rounds of skills to your one. I'm pretty sure she's going to win those trades.

Also Smash I was in that game (I was the Kennen on the other team that kinda sucked it up). I felt a little bad.

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

September 30 2011 17:07 GMT

#113

Don't be inside the shroud then :< Or buy a ward. I don't really see that aspect of vs Akali any different than any other hero.

With regards to Irelia I just don't think W gives enough HP back fast enough to deal with Akali's burst. You can sit there autoattacking all day and I think her Q alone is enough to pick you down faster. Just wouldn't mathematically work. I was just suggesting that maybe counter-bursting would be more effective at equalizing than trying to out-sustain it.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

September 30 2011 17:07 GMT

#114

*shrugs* they happen, I accept that I'll have games like that sometimes. I just usually feel like there's some way back into a lane, but every time I thought there was an opening, there was actually some sort of gay ass shaco gank coming to rape me sideways. oh well, maybe I'll try playing the matchup again the next time it presents itself, but after that match, I just feel more inclided to just go GP/Jarman/Pantheon when I see an akali, you know, someone who can poke without committing.

@Utah: mathematically, trying to trade bursts doesn't work out in your favor either. Irelia's burst numbers pre-6 aren't really that great and it's pretty impossible to even pull them off realistically vs. cloud.

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

September 30 2011 17:26 GMT

#115

If you're not in shroudI feel like the stun proc off E would let you stay even though, oh well.

Slayer91

Ireland23465 Posts

September 30 2011 17:40 GMT

#116

On October 01 2011 02:03 arnath wrote:
How are you counter-bursting her though? If she runs up and Q->autos you and then uses W to hide, by the time her W is up, her Q will be back off cooldown so even if you Q->E her, she's getting 2 rounds of skills to your one. I'm pretty sure she's going to win those trades.

Also Smash I was in that game (I was the Kennen on the other team that kinda sucked it up). I felt a little bad.

As I said, E to stun her when she hits q on you. Run away when she shrouds the CD is pretty long and once it's down you can even just Q on top of her if you feel like you're that strong.

Maxing W isn't just about the extra AD, the healing is huge, especially combined with massive resists.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

September 30 2011 18:11 GMT

#117

people's skepticism is leading me to believe I may have just botched it too hard early and then played poorly from behind (as I always do). I will try the matchup again when it presents itself and try to play it tighter.

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

September 30 2011 18:17 GMT

#118

I have no idea, I was just suggesting :p

De4ngus

United States6533 Posts

September 30 2011 18:18 GMT

#119

akali fucks irelia hard early on. then you get max level w and spirit visage or whatever and now akali cant touch you without dying. if you keep buying gold/10 items she can keep harassing. good thing lasthitting under tower is ezmode with irelia lol.