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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On May 27 2012 19:16 Schnake wrote: Is stacking Archangels viable on AP kog? Or do you have not enough survivability then? You really want that void staff - With low AP ratios but good base numbers, MPen is better than your typical AP character. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On May 27 2012 19:44 brolaf wrote: Triforce is efficient. With its stats AND its goodies. In fact its more efficient than PD if you use all its stats(like kog does) Unless you're *really* on the ball with getting every triforce proc without interrupting any auto attack Triforce is just as gold efficient for DPS as a PD. If you're not proccing at all (for instance you're OOM) you're really far behind. PD + BFS is just 400 more gold and does a lot more damage than Triforce. If your team needs more damage because they're behind or just lack DPS threats TF just isn't a good option on any AD, even Corki. | ||
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brolaf
291 Posts
On May 28 2012 06:17 phyvo wrote: The major point is that stacking AAs is never an option on anybody because the instant a mobility bruiser dives you you're dead Unless you're *really* on the ball with getting every triforce proc without interrupting any auto attack Triforce is just as gold efficient for DPS as a PD. If you're not proccing at all (for instance you're OOM) you're really far behind. PD + BFS is just 400 more gold and does a lot more damage than Triforce. If your team needs more damage because they're behind or just lack DPS threats TF just isn't a good option on any AD, even Corki. pd is a specialist item. it doesnt add nearly as much dps by itself, it needs the other carry items to become good. triforce is universalist, it is a one stop shop for doing tons of damage. by itself, it does more damage than any item, and offers more utility. its not just a meme, it is the truth. but its one shop stop makes it more of a metagolem part too. but no it isnt bad, pros use it often on corkster and ez. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On May 28 2012 08:21 brolaf wrote: pd is a specialist item. it doesnt add nearly as much dps by itself, it needs the other carry items to become good. I initially thought this was true until people last page made me take another look at my DPS spreadsheet. With just standard AD marks/quints PD + BFS has the same DPS/gold as IE, except you're getting your mobility/positioning ability much earlier. triforce is universalist, it is a one stop shop for doing tons of damage. by itself, it does more damage than any item, This is completely untrue. Even if you procced PERFECTLY (that is every 2s without interrupting auto attacks with spells) IE and PD+BFS would do more damage and be more gold efficient. If you're actually human the gap widens significantly. If it weren't for the proc TF's damage would be complete garbage, which means that if you're low on mana or have high ult stacks you are hamstrung. and offers more utility. its not just a meme, it is the truth. but its one shop stop makes it more of a metagolem part too .You get utility (250 HP/MP and phage proc) at the price of your DPS. It's not free. If your team needs damage you're only doing them a disservice by buying TF. If anyone should be buying DPS it's you, Kog Maw, a ranged carry with some of the highest range and some of the best DPS potential the game. but no it isnt bad, pros use it often on corkster and ez. I didn't say it was bad. I said it was stupid to buy when you're behind or when your team needs damage. I've heard from pros that you shouldn't buy TF under those circumstances even on Corki. EZ is a weird case and I haven't heard as much about him but in terms of his relationship to TF Kog is a lot more like Corki than he is like EZ. | ||
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brolaf
291 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On May 27 2012 18:45 Ryuu314 wrote: Well dcap is definitely something you should be aiming for in a final build. maybe not as a second or third item, but fourth item and on there's no reason to not get it. as for RoA, i've seen many AP kogs, froggen included, just skip it. With Rylais/Tear you have sufficient hp/mana. RoA is a good item for AP kog tho. But..but..but....I want to do da tanky Kogmaw. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On May 28 2012 20:05 brolaf wrote: Again, you can have your maths show this or that(evidently, it also shows that TF is more efficient than PD gold wise, and IE is more efficient than any dmg item other than BT.. how you value its stats is a different matter). Your second statement is pretty close to my point. It DOES NOT MATTER how stat efficient an item is if the stats it gives you are worthless (case in point Nashor's Tooth). Mathing out EHP and DPS values per item gives you a far more accurate assessment as to how valuable an item is since ranged carries don't buy many items with complicated passives or actives. But when i watch pro games, PD+bf isnt some wonder combo. Ive never seen it done. Yet 2xdoran-IE-zeal is standard pro build. same with TF first on 'ol cork You haven't been watching that many pro games if you've never seen PD rush Kog Maw builds. They've been pretty common for Kog Maw in past tournaments. Moreover, PD + BFS gives the same DPS per gold spent as a lone IE. You don't actually give up much DPS for going PD + BFS rather than IE. It's not a wonder combo. It's not going to revolutionize your game. But for PD both the math (actual DPS numbers) and the precedent (tourney games) are stronger than TF's (which does significantly less DPS and has not been built on Kog in tourney games except possibly the more recent ones I've missed). On May 28 2012 20:56 Alaric wrote: Simply because IE first scales better than everything else, and PD only makes sense if you can shooting while not moving, or else you lose some of the AS value. With IE, you attack less often, but every attack hits for more, and crits even more. "Punctual" attacks deal more damage, and they are more likely than a gatling gun mode with everybody ignoring you all fight long. But with faster auto attacks your animation is shorter and with PD your movespeed is faster. If targets are running away you're also better at chasing. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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brolaf
291 Posts
On May 28 2012 23:40 phyvo wrote: Nashor? Jax Your second statement is pretty close to my point. It DOES NOT MATTER how stat efficient an item is if the stats it gives you are worthless (case in point Nashor's Tooth). Mathing out EHP and DPS values per item gives you a far more accurate assessment as to how valuable an item is since ranged carries don't buy many items with complicated passives or actives. You haven't been watching that many pro games if you've never seen PD rush Kog Maw builds. They've been pretty common for Kog Maw in past tournaments. Moreover, PD + BFS gives the same DPS per gold spent as a lone IE. You don't actually give up much DPS for going PD + BFS rather than IE. It's not a wonder combo. It's not going to revolutionize your game. But for PD both the math (actual DPS numbers) and the precedent (tourney games) are stronger than TF's (which does significantly less DPS and has not been built on Kog in tourney games except possibly the more recent ones I've missed). But with faster auto attacks your animation is shorter and with PD your movespeed is faster. If targets are running away you're also better at chasing.  | ||
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Agnosthar
631 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
On May 30 2012 00:01 Seuss wrote: You guys remind me of a friend who tried to tell me that Madred's Bloodrazor was good on Akali. Bloodrazor is good on all champions  You should see my Bloodrazor Meow-kai, shit is so cash. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On May 30 2012 00:01 Seuss wrote: You guys remind me of a friend who tried to tell me that Madred's Bloodrazor was good on Akali. Except tri-force isn't bad on Kog'maw. I don't know why the OP is neglecting the usefulness of tri-force simply because he's used to a play-style that involves pressing your W, right-clicking and killing. Tri-force IS good on kog'maw, you build it because you want a good mid-game rather than a good late game. Tri-force involves using ALL of his spells rather than focusing on enhancing his W for the pure purpose of being a tank-killer late game. Also this isn't about which item is the most cost-effective item for kog'maw this is solely based around where you want your focus to be. It's like comparing AD nida to AP nida and then saying deathcap is bad on ad nida, when it's two completely different subjects. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
If you were more open to opposing ideas you might have made a spreadsheet like this one: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aowpba9laK0vdG9yd0Q0M2RMMEZzYUtyVHVEWURmY0E The spreadsheet assumes perfect proc execution for Trinity Force and includes a subsheet where the player only attacks once every two seconds, perfectly in line with Trinity Force procs. You'll note that even in the extreme ideal case Trinity Force only barely beats IE's damage. In the reverse case Trinity Force is absolutely crushed. Trinity Force is not a good item on Kog'maw. It's not worth crippling your late-game for equivalent-at-best mid-game damage and mediocre utility. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
Also that spreadsheet doesn't make any sense. You're comparing Tri-force which has a cost of roughly 4000 to PD+BF which cost roughly 500 more. Basicly it all comes down to how you manevour around. You CANNOT expect a team so solely be build around you, except in arranged where this is a must. There's 2 sole reasons for the PD+IE path in tourney play: 1. The ability for you to farm is higher, the chances of getting to late game is relatively high. 2. Your team picks champions, with the mind-set of having you as their primary damage dealer in late-game (because of your scaling). So your job as kog'maw is to press your W and just hit every single target in a safe position, while your team is trying to help you accomplish your goal (assuming late game team fighting, with even scores etc.) This is NOT possible to achieve in solo queue. I got over 700 games in solo queue, currently sneaking around the 1700 mark and if there's one thing i've learned, it's that peeling simply isn't an option at lower level play unless you choose to do it, or you ask your team to do it. The main reason you wanna go for the tri-force path is the fact that higher health helps you in lane, the phage proc is really keen because you will become a poking monster. W'ing, aa -> phage proc and you can start bashing out a few R's for excellent trades that honestly no other carry can really compete with. The sheen procs of your W and your R, making you even more threating as you now have some burst, along side the fact that your superior range and phage procs+E will make it hard for many champions to ever really get close simply because you have kite potential. You're playing like a pussy, but it actually works. The mindset of how you utilize your spells differs, simply because you want to be as safe as possible without having to heavily relying on your team. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On May 30 2012 06:50 Sponkz wrote: I'm not saying PD+IE is a bad path. I never said it. I'm only arguing for the fact that i actually tried tri-force kog for a handful of games with succes, mainly noticing how much my mid-game increased and seeing as i personally never reach late game in more than 20-30% of my games i think it's fairly well to notice how much of an influence the whole mid-game meta has become. Oh well. Everyone knows what you're arguing and everyone has been telling you very gently that you're wrong. As the previous guy said you just cannot open yourself to the idea that you're wrong lol. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On May 30 2012 06:58 Feartheguru wrote: Everyone knows what you're arguing and everyone has been telling you very gently that you're wrong. As the previous guy said you just cannot open yourself to the idea that you're wrong lol. Maybe you cannot open up to the idea, that i'm trying out different paths. Have any of you actually tried it? | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On May 30 2012 07:10 Sponkz wrote: Maybe you cannot open up to the idea, that i'm trying out different paths. Have any of you actually tried it? You're right, how did I not realize. TL is such a bunch of derps, no one has ever considered triforce before and now everyone is trying to argue with you that its bad? Shame on these people, every one of them. How dare they bring our their fancy numbers in the face of your overwhelming anecdotal evidence. | ||
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