Kog Maw was 9 months old and without a thread. Since no one of higher Elo evidently wants to make it, I bring you this one. Since I'm only 1260 ranked feel free to make suggestions and, if necessary, corrections. I made a spreadsheet or something so if you like looking at some DPS numbers just take a gander here. That version is editable too so feel free to play around a bit if you can figure out my setup (it's a bit messy, I apologize).
Onward to item builds and stuff.
A Newbie's Guide to Kog'Maw
Kog Maw, even after the buffs, is almost the epitome of what it means to be a ranged carry. Kog can do a *lot* of damage later in the game and is pretty much only matched by Tristana in terms of raw DPS. Unlike Tristana (and every other ranged carry but Twitch) though, he has no escape and as a result dies really fast. Your best defense is to not get focused, which requires both good positioning on your part and a team that can save your behind.
The build I think is optimal is a lot like the recommended build, but that doesn't tell you what masteries or runes to pick or how to lane.
Ability Order
I prioritize R > W > E > Q, with 1 point in Q early if you really want the 10% AS.
Leveling W first is obvious. You need at least 1 point in E to not instantly die to ganks or aggression against you. However, I like adding in more points because having the slow be better can help a lot against ganks and if they overextend towards you to prevent their escape and make Rs easy to land.
Just as importantly though, Leveling E before Q let's you farm a whole lot better and defend against pushes more easily. Since I like sorc shoes the -mr is also often overkill when you add malady and Q on top of that.
Masteries/Runes/Summoners I run 21/0/9 with arcane mastery, havoc, buff duration, offensive mastery, and brute force. 21/0/9 is pretty standard on a ranged carry but more than that the last two masteries make last hitting much, much easier (and it's a PAIN IN THE BUTT when you only have 49 AD to start).
For runes I like AS/flat armor/flat mres/AS. If you're conservative with E and R you don't need mana regen and since everything in the universe is dangerous to Koggy I prefer to have them both. Movespeed quints are OK too.
For spells I'm running Exhaust/Flash at the moment because people say it's OP. but traditionally ranged carries run ghost instead of exhaust. Exhaust helps you 1v1, ghost lets you run away and chase.
Items
Basic Build - Start boots + pots or cloth armor + pots depending on opponent and the roughness of the lane.
Then Malady/boots 1 -> Sorc shoes -> Wit's End and/or Bloodrazor in nearly any order.
Survivability. E.G. BV, QSS, Frozen Heart, and Frozen Mallet.
Cheap AS Build - If you have no one with an attack speed buff on your team you can avoid bloodrazor and only buy SotD/Wit's/Malady for AS. This is actually slightly more efficient against opponents with less than 2500 health and 100 MR, so it earlier on it will kill squishies a lot faster. It leaves you short on item slots however.
If you really want to go glass cannon you can also buy MBR after this for over 600 DPS against the opponent I mentioned. If you want to try this you might want to switch your runes a bit though to avoid capping out on AS and wasting some of your cash if you plan on this.
Playing
Solo lane is nice but against most opponents you're going to be on your back foot. Begin passive. At level 3 of W you easily outrange any other ranged carry and can harass freely while they let you. When I play this is my most comfortable matchup.
You basically harass by outranging with W. After you get your ult you can get in/near W range, ult behind them, then W auto. They are forced to take your auto attacks or get hit by ultimate, sometimes both. However, if you do this against a strong laning assassin or melee DPS style character they will usually choose to rush you instead.
If you need to run away, ooze behind you before you flash, if you have flash. If you're burning everything in order to win a 1v1 against a melee, flash back from their blink, and ooze in front of you to force the fight to continue. When they reach you again, exhaust to murder their DPS. Careful of their exhaust if they take it, as it will murder your W dps then W will end and your DPS will continue to suck. This also applies to team fights, but you might want to save flash for flashing over a wall since you have really long range and can simply fire over it.
Against Assassins you really just need to wear them out faster than they wear you out, or else their superior burst will kill you. A pre-emptive exhaust right as they're going to commit helps here.
AP Kog
AP Kog was and still is pretty much a troll build that I wouldn't suggest for a solo lane (it's like AS Kog except you can't stand and fight in the hopes of out DPSing them). The #1 biggest misconception about AP Kog is that the R's AP ratio is 0.75 against champions; it isn't. The bonus damage only applies to base damage. As a result AP scales pretty darn sucky for Kog the rest of his abilities aren't hot scalers either. In other words, deathcap is a gigantic waste of cash on Koggy and you should feel ashamed for DOING YOUR TROLLING WRONG.
My old AP Kog build was Tear/sorc shoes/guise/DFG/Void Staff. It has kinks. You can do really high DPS with R with 40% CDR and max penetration but you're going to run out of mana really fast even with tear and blue buff. The Void staff is awkward and doesn't really help against tanky types. Turning tear into AA doesn't help you all that much. DFG is kinda awkward but having another nuke is helpful.
Whatever, AP Kog is troll, have fun with it. I'm too tired to write more at the moment.
Why 21/0/9? You build AS/magic damage so you don't really get much mileage out of Lethality or Havoc. Something like 15/0/15 or 9/0/21 seems like it would make more sense.
Well as my first real post, i just want to give my thoughts on Kog'Maw.
I prio R > Q > W > E
Why prio like this?
It gives you the ability, when you acquire your madred's bloodrazor, to do some heavy dmg. Keep in mind that 3800 gold (if you decide to rush it without boots, otherwise it will be 4150 gold+wards), takes some time to farm. You will most likely be solo laning (or being babysat at bot) and will be able to lvl your W to lvl 4-5, before you acquire your Madred's Bloodrazor. This will, in my opinion, make you ALOT more deadly when you go back to your lane. 25% AS from your Q+40% AS from Madred's+your W+Madred's Unique=one deadly Kog'Maw.
For items i go something like you do OP, except i start with doran's shield. If it's going great on my lane and i perhaps have gotten a kill or two, i rush madred's bloodrazor asap. If not i will get 2 recurve bows or something similar, maybe some defense if i've fed.
I run a 9/0/21 aiming for utility mastery, quickness, reduced CD's etc. etc. For runes i go MS quints, Magic pen marks, mp5/lvl and mres/lvl glyphs.
I feel like Kog is more team-dependent than any of the other ranged carries. He's really, really easy to kill. If your team isn't doing well in front of you, you're toast. That said, he does RETARDED amounts of damage and basically will pentakill a team if left unmolested.
Why not add a manamune to Kog since he's so mana-intensive with his R-spam?
Yeah I build Kog'Maw more like a mage with runes and masteries. I've got to say it feels much better than when I went 21/0/9 and built more common DPS runes.
Also I love Kog'Maw but it is just so hard to find a good team with him. If the enemy has an assassin or offtank champ then I found you have to have a good team or you will die too fast to do anything, regardless of how well I positioned myself. Though I'm probably not experienced enough as Kog.
I run cleanse/flash kog, and I find he can actually beat some popular mid solos, with a little fines. When you mid solo, grabbing boots is probably always best, unless you are going to be fighting someone with an early closing attack, like irelia or akali. Some solo-mids cant really do much to a fast kogmaw, and when they choose to exchange hits, they will always come up short. I think vlad, karthus, ashe and caitlyn are in these lists, vlad with his really short range I find laughable easy to beat, caitlyn can only beat me if she gets successive skill shots off on me, and at a certain point I can ignore kartus' nukes and just gun for him and come out ahead. Thought certain solos seem to knock up kog maw really hard. I havent found a way to beat zilean, because double bomb then hasting away, I barely get 4shots in, and then im at 100 hp. Anyone with a closing attack as I said before makes kogmaw feel awful.
Don't solo top, because that is where these counters run wild, and the long tower to tower distance will make you tower hug, or you will start feeding. Also dual lane bottom needs a proper support teammate. I've only tried it out a few times, but if your teammate isn't acting with the objective of protecting you everytime both sides commit, you will die alot. You could probably even it out with the kills you get, but I find its much more effective to have an alistar or janna who can easily protect you and do whatever they want. Alistar is a perfect bodyguard for kogmaw for the rest of the game. Any time a team fight is imminent, just having kogmaw and alistar together, even in a 2v5, guarentees you a kill or two. Optimally, you would have an initiator, like amumu, go in and ult, and the other two members go to work. Kog goes in at the same time, targetting the threats first. It usually doesn't matter how tanky they are as long as you have malady+recurve bow. Wits end is icing on the cake, and madreds makes it so you can target whoever the hell you feel like and kill them in 5 seconds flat. Now alistar should stay with you, because if the enemy team is smart, there is that high burst douche who will be waiting for kog to commit. The second ali sees him get near kogmaw, he headbutts and keeps a perimeter around kog. If the other threats are out of range or dead, they can pursue. I's pretty great, because kog's max range with w is a little more the how far headbutt throws them. Proceed to chase, and usually a few good living artillery can finish them off. Remember to Q them before alistart headbutts, with sorc boots your R will make them melt.
I generally agree with the first build, but just make sure you get sorc boots, malady and a recurve bow. Thats all you need to competently do your job, and the enemies can't really build anything armor/MR wise to make you less effective, and just getting pure HP makes madreds a natural choice. Wit's End is great, if there are no hp heavy guys. Chalice isn't bad in the begining if they have a lot of AP, just don't try to delay the core. I have 2 wards on both bushes in mid at all times usually.
Kog needs a team built around him, so I wouldn't suggest pubbing with him, because it's basically: Is your team willing to build around Kog? If yes congrats. If not, is enemy team aware of how to deal with kog maw? If no, congrats. If yes, GG. It's also fun to baron in about 20 seconds.
Yango: I can see 15/0/15 working, but as I said with 9/0/21 last hitting is really hard without at least some points in offensive mastery. If you have no problem last hitting without offensive mastery, go ahead and go 9/0/21. As for getting havoc I go the whole mile because I feel like it. I actually don't know if it works with item magic damage but if it does it seems worth it in my book.
Sponkz: Rushing Bloodrazor first is BAAD. NONOONO. Don't do it. DPS-wise it is horribly inefficient and is simply inferior to grabbing malady first (check the spread sheet, mah maths prove it). It's not just the target's Mres, it's the extra attack speed and magic damage from Malady that make BR only efficient after a magic attack speed item. And yeah, sure Q gives you some attack speed and penetration but that is for 4 seconds at close range. Moreover, Malady *by itself* is super efficient for your gold. Since it passes that efficiency on to bloodrazor, you only *gain* by building it first because late game it's just as good.
And what do you give up by going Q? The only move that gives you any chance of escape. Sorry, that seems really really stupid to me, because PEOPLE LOVE GANKING KOG MAW.
Also, my nerdy maths have shown that magic pen marks give you less DPS than attack speed marks do. Again, check the spreadsheet.
xDaunt: I kind of glossed over that but yes. I think this is actually another reason to take the duo lane and go EU style with Kog because you need your team to be ahead of you. Taking the solo puts too much burden on you when you need other targets to be focused instead of you.
zerg: Mage Kog is kinda interesting but in my experience is strictly inferior. As Kog your major threat will always be BAB, and BAB scales much better with AS than Mpen. 2.5 attack speed is around 4X the damage from when you started, whereas to get that same value with only Mpen you'd need to build a lot of items and even then you'd only get 2X the damage.
Again, for AS Kog attack speed is simply superior. I firmly believe that Kog's best weapon is his auto attack and BAB.
Finally, it's not just experience. Kog really needs a team that can protect him and is still really weak. He's basically Tristana 0.5. Trist does as much damage late game, has nearly the same range late game, and has an escape + a knockback.
Even with the buffs Kog still makes a good case for being the worst ranged DPS in the game (the only other contender is Twitch).
Well, kog does always give a side role of ranged mage that has really useful scouting that tristana doesn't. It's easy to make use of and a properly played kog can go places without facechecking. But yeah when it comes to the nitty gritty, you will probably be better off playing trist. Though you could argue the side-role mage a bit more. I run MPen marks, Mp5/lvl, and flat cdr, with some ap quints because i havent gotten my hands on MS quints yet.
And with the W cd buff, you have it on more then not. Doesn't kog outrange trist with it activated?
At 18 Trist has 700 range (50 less than Kog with W). So yeah, Kog outranges Trist, but Trist has nearly the same thing except that she can actually defend herself without having to rely on her team for absolutely everything. Moreover her range isn't as conditional as Kog's is, so combined with her escape kit she gets to use it a lot more (think: 700 range + jump is basically greater range than 750 with no jump when a melee charges you). She's also better at poking towers than Kog since she builds AD+AS instead of just AS.
Two seconds off W cooldown do nothing to solve Kog's major problem: nearly everyone walks up to him and kills him.
As for bush checking there are a lot of mages who can check bushes while being better mages than Kog. Anyone with a skill shot can check a bush (Brand, Rumble, Sivir, Cait, Ashe, Ezreal, Corki, etc) and many abilities like Karthus wall, Malzahar void, and Corki bomb give bush vision. Moreover, stuff like Nidalee traps, Teemo shrooms, Caitlyn traps, and Maokai saplings can all keep tabs on bushes better than Kog can ever hope to. There are so many bush checkers/semi-wards that, even without taking into account proper warding and clairvoyance, the fact that Kog can check bushes is pretty null and void.
I think he's an awful champion with few redeeming factors. I made this guide because I've liked Kog enough to keep tabs on him for the past 9 months and as a character he's one of my favorites, and wanted to share what I consider to be the best way to play him. But arguing that Kog is in some way "good" outside of his DPS seems to me to be wishful thinking.
I've only had real success playing Kog hybrid getting several Doran's Blades and a Black Cleaver first items and then going for AS/magical damage such as Wit's End and BR.
The main problem with all the "magic damage on hit" items is that they, while giving you good damage vs champions, give entirely nothing vs turrets. The main strength of Kog is his insane range that allows him to basically shred towers without anyone engaging into a fight. If you don't build at least some AD or AP and focus entirely on procs, you're gonna dump half his tactical advantage.
And since the game is really about killing their base, not going 40-0, the best Kog is AD Kog imo.
On May 26 2011 18:42 Johnny Business wrote: AP kog is so much funnier to play though. I love being a siege tank with my ulti.
AP Kog is surprisingly good in late game. With 40% Mpen and your W doing like 14% max HP (with BR ofc) on each hit, you shred anyone like no tomorrow. This is why you get a deathcap, not for the ultimate. However, AP Kog needs way too many items so it's not really viable since you will sacrifice too much of your midgame for your late to be relevant.
I'm 1500 Elo currently, have been above 1600, and AP kog is my main.
IMO Ap Kog is the only way to play. You shouldn't have to be within w range to fight, or you're going to melt (especially if you're carrying) because people all think the way to beat teams with Kog is to blow him up first, and deal with his team later.
That being said, this is my build.
Summoners: Flash and Ghost, Non negotiable, the other team will hunt you, even with your ridiculous range, and your slow you'll need the escapes.
9-0-21 Spell Pen in offense, Pretty Standard utility.
Skill order EWEQER then R>E>W>Q Your E is an AP nuke that's great for farming, and harassment. This is absolutely essential in lane. Also, once you hit level 9 E+R will 1shot Caster minions.
Items: mana crystal 2 health pots. Then Cata, Boots 1, RoA, Sorc Shoes, Deathcap. Beyond that you have a few options. You will probably want a Rylais and a Void Staff as your next two items, the order depends on the other teams magic resistance. Occasionally if I'm doing really well I'll get another NLR before those two items and build it into hourglass at the end of my build. If I'm not doing as well, or if they are just absolutely charging at me I'll get a Banshees
In lane play very passive until level 6, focus on last hits. If your opponent thinks he's going to be smart and harass you, e w will do a lot of damage and keep you safe. After level 6 you can basically outharass and outfarm anyone. E and R is an amazing combo, abuse the low cd of your ult, but try not to get more than two stacks on it, and only two stacks when a hit is guaranteed, or when you can get easy creeps with it.
You want to hit levels 11 and 16 as fast as possible, the extra range is absolutely amazing. Farm as much as you can, while still helping your team whenever possible. Once you hit 16, you become incredibly annoying. You can force the other team to engage by bombarding them from well outside of their harassment range, just ensure you keep your team between the other team and you if you're closer than max range.
I have to go to work now, I'll add more if you want later.
On May 27 2011 00:55 Sha[DoW] wrote: I'm 1500 Elo currently, have been above 1600, and AP kog is my main.
IMO Ap Kog is the only way to play. You shouldn't have to be within w range to fight, or you're going to melt (especially if you're carrying) because people all think the way to beat teams with Kog is to blow him up first, and deal with his team later.
That being said, this is my build.
Summoners: Flash and Ghost, Non negotiable, the other team will hunt you, even with your ridiculous range, and your slow you'll need the escapes.
9-0-21 Spell Pen in offense, Pretty Standard utility.
Skill order EWEQER then R>E>W>Q Your E is an AP nuke that's great for farming, and harassment. This is absolutely essential in lane. Also, once you hit level 9 E+R will 1shot Caster minions.
Items: mana crystal 2 health pots. Then Cata, Boots 1, RoA, Sorc Shoes, Deathcap. Beyond that you have a few options. You will probably want a Rylais and a Void Staff as your next two items, the order depends on the other teams magic resistance. Occasionally if I'm doing really well I'll get another NLR before those two items and build it into hourglass at the end of my build. If I'm not doing as well, or if they are just absolutely charging at me I'll get a Banshees
In lane play very passive until level 6, focus on last hits. If your opponent thinks he's going to be smart and harass you, e w will do a lot of damage and keep you safe. After level 6 you can basically outharass and outfarm anyone. E and R is an amazing combo, abuse the low cd of your ult, but try not to get more than two stacks on it, and only two stacks when a hit is guaranteed, or when you can get easy creeps with it.
You want to hit levels 11 and 16 as fast as possible, the extra range is absolutely amazing. Farm as much as you can, while still helping your team whenever possible. Once you hit 16, you become incredibly annoying. You can force the other team to engage by bombarding them from well outside of their harassment range, just ensure you keep your team between the other team and you if you're closer than max range.
I have to go to work now, I'll add more if you want later.
I never touched kog in my entire life but since I main Corki/Ashe/Trist I assume one thing might benefit kog even more (cuz more dps vs bruisers) than those do:
Use Flash/Exhaust over Flash/Ghost. Exhaust any tanky dps that dives you, buttrape them. I'd not use Ghost on a ranged carry with no escape, ever. Exhaust is so much stronger 1n1 vs other AD carries (common in lane) and to defend against divers.
There's actually a decent case for Ghost over exhaust on Kog since a Kog with Rylais can chase and gun down someone WAYYYYYYY the fuck out of exhaust range. Ghost is less flexible on most characters than Exhaust, but on AP Kog I think it makes a fair amount of sense.
On May 27 2011 01:10 bumatlarge wrote: Im really interested in what you are laning against that you can manage with a mana crystal and 2 hp pots? I have trouble with boots and 3 pots.
Honestly, I almost never lose a lane with kog. Jarman before the nerfs was a little sketchy, but apart from that I'm usually fine. Kog's e is absolutely amazing in laning. All you have to do is autoattack for the majority of your last hits in the first few levels, then E and R become amazing farming tools. If I'm in a passive lane I can usually autoattack my way through right to 6 and still have almost all of my mana for trying to harass my opponent out of lane/kill them once I hit 6.
I honestly think E is the skill that makes Kog. It allows you to farm vs very aggressive laners in two ways: It lets you keep them off you (xin can't actually proc a three taloned strike if you e him when he jumps you) It also allows you to farm from a very long distance if you make a mistake and find yourself forced partially off the creeps (which shouldn't really ever happen from my experience.
Post level 6, you're a monster. Your E does like 300 damage, your ult does close to 200. That harassment combination is devestating. You can usually deny someone a large amount of lasthits just by constantly harassing them with E+R.
I think the suggested build for Kog'maw is pretty good, going with a malady/wits end core. Only thing is that I don't understand why you wouldn't get one of the tears of the goddess items on him since he's such a mana whore.
On May 28 2011 05:07 xDaunt wrote: I think the suggested build for Kog'maw is pretty good, going with a malady/wits end core. Only thing is that I don't understand why you wouldn't get one of the tears of the goddess items on him since he's such a mana whore.
AP Kog is a mana whore. Aspd/Magic proc Kog doesn't hog that much mana because Q, E, and R become utility skills rather than damage skills because none of what you're buying scales into them at all.
I'm only 1300 at the moment, but I'm so stuck in this elo that I've found out it doesn't matter what I play, just as long as I try hard, I win a little over half my games.
Anyway mixed kogmaw! Wooooo! This requires two things: A good aim and at least one tanky cc partner like shen or alistar. It's ideal later on and it will be a position well spent because kog attracts faggoty heroes to him like flies to a lightbulb. You don't need them, but make sure your team has a buttload of cc before you lock-in.
Runes aren't too important, since you are item reliant mostly, but here's what I got Red: APen/Mpen (both are effective, MPen for early game APen for late game, whatever you have) Blue: Flat CDR (I like spamming my spells a lot, and your chalice will have you covered when you do) Yellow: Mp5/lvl (obvious, and then you can ditch the chalice at 18) Quint (I run MS, and one hp, cause I have them!
Masteries: 21/0/9
Spells: ghost flash
Skill: R>E>W>Q
Items: boots+pots (situational of course) chalice swift/sorc/merc (swift is for the mobility, sorc for slower/bulkier peeps or if teamfights tend to be poke heavy, and merc for people who really don't like you) BlastWand (This allows you to act as a soft ridiculous ranged caster for the early game, just stay back and poke hard and farm) pickaxe guinsoo (i dont know why this isnt used more in combination with malady, it procs it every time you attack, great for mix kog) tome first then recurve (squeeze in that caster phase for a bit) malady (now you blossom into a mixed range dps, and your W is maxed at this point, just lay down your E and blow your W and commence auto attack, but of course you need to be very cautious, I usually play kog like I would a mejais/oracles lux.) Wit's End/Madred's (Depends on the other team, usually it will be a clear cut decision, AP heavy enemy team, wit's end is great, physical tanky other team, madreds makes them not tanky anymore) Then go whatever you need. If you need to get survivability, make sure its got a good damage end to it, like mallet. Trade chalice for Nashor's for end game. Other CDR like ghostblade is cool as well.
If you play smart and coordinate with your team, you'll have a lot of fun being a lot of different roles for your team. If your doing well, you will most likely be difficult to counter item-wise, since you hit at both MR and armor. Be experimental, I'd love suggestions.
Here's the latest game versus some crummy 1250-1300 pubs :D I had the most beautiful shen that game, but it's sad that your two best allies are banned almost everygame
Edit: Oh and the lane can be solo mid or bot with your buddy, JUST FOR GOD SAKE DONT LET THEM MAKE YOU GO SOLO TOP.
after trying it a couple more times, i have to say bilgewater -> recurve -> hextech gunblade is a fantastic way to build kog. it lets him have some pretty damn strong midgame power
So Kog is free and has also been buffed. A couple of hard to judge usability buffs and an increase on W duration and cooldown, which should definitely be considered a buff.
I've been playing him a bunch now and he feels really strong. Might be my opponents being too bad to kill me or he's just actually strong. I would guess it's the latter. He might even be a little too strong. Since I am in fact really bad with Kog (my lasthitting is abysmal), I can only imagine how good he would be in the hands of a better player.
I've been going Exhaust Flash, 9/0/21 (Crit and Mpen in offense), MPen/Armor/MRes/Armor Regrowth > Philo > Wit's End + Bloodrazor + Merc Treads, occasionally Malady, later on Phage/Mallet and various defensive items. R > E > W > Q, I don't even get a single point in Q until lvl 13.
I kinda hate how most of the time R+E will leave ranged minions with like 20 HP and ready to be stolen by your own minions, 15 AP from Quints doesn't fix that either...
I'm maxing E first because it's the best skill to have for midgame fights (burst dominated) and the 60% slow is huge. I don't use Q because of the low range (lol) and because I always forget to use it anyways. I'm generally playing rather passively in lane (preferably mid of course), although you can bully quite a few enemies with E W. Mid/lategame is just like a typical ranged AD: Position safely and put the hurt on. Blue buff is very desireable. Red buff is decent.
This build works really well for me, but I just put that together using my gut feeling. I like how it is kinda tanky (for a ranged DPS). Hard facts proving that this is indeed the perfect build are appreciated very much.
Oh yeah: Your "role" is: Midgame burst into lategame ranged DPS (still magic damage).
skip the philo and open boots 3 pots instead. kog needs boots so he can be a good bully in lane with his insane effective range. kog has pretty poor sustainability, but can afford to just sit back and farm with skills so buying more pots later during the laning phase is more efficient than investing in a philo where it can be binary to whether or not you take damage in lane.
You're using the aspd build, and already have 15% mpen from masteries. I'd go aspd reds instead of mpen reds in that case to get the most effect out of rune slots.
oh this is from the viewpoint of a solo lane... didn't take duo bot into account
The r buff is amazing, but I still cannot hold my own in a lane verse Annie, where you have to play ridiculously passive til 6 then either land really solid ults to catch up in farm or miss and die to Annie combo at full hp. AP solos are a bit of a problem since burst doesnt let kogmaw get those additional attacks he'd get from enemies auto attacking. He's absolutely fantastic verse melee and AD carries. Though he can't really solo top since he relies a bit on running back to tower.
He's a lot stronger and his usefulness is how well you know how far you can punish and not get blown to smithereens that makes his passive see a lot of daylight.
I still like going hex tech and chalice into guinsoo then AD. Confuses people
On July 12 2011 07:08 R04R wrote: skip the philo and open boots 3 pots instead. kog needs boots so he can be a good bully in lane with his insane effective range. kog has pretty poor sustainability, but can afford to just sit back and farm with skills so buying more pots later during the laning phase is more efficient than investing in a philo where it can be binary to whether or not you take damage in lane.
You're using the aspd build, and already have 15% mpen from masteries. I'd go aspd reds instead of mpen reds in that case to get the most effect out of rune slots.
oh this is from the viewpoint of a solo lane... didn't take duo bot into account
I want the Philo for the MP5 as well. I tried skipping it and I really disliked it. Kog is a caster during early/midgame. MPen does a lot more than ASpd during that phase, and later on the natural ASpd bonus and my items will pale out any ASpd marks.
On July 12 2011 10:18 arnath wrote: Spinesheath have you been going solo or bottom? I've been having trouble deciding which of these I think is better for Kog.
I've done both and since I am so bad at farming with Kog it didn't really make a difference. But again, Kog is a caster during early/midgame and as such he's pretty solid in mid even for the EU style compositions. I generally prefer solo lanes on champs who are supposed to dish out damage. The experience makes quite a difference.
Unless you can focus completely on farming, bot lane is tough because more often then not one of the two bot will be in your face and you'll want to harass or kil them away with kog, which is your partners job.
Just ask yourself how fast is mid going to burst you down, and then compare it with bot and your partner there. Heroes like alistar would be great support for you since you really want the cc rathe then heals, but a sona is a little poop cake partner.
On July 12 2011 09:45 bumatlarge wrote: The r buff is amazing, but I still cannot hold my own in a lane verse Annie, where you have to play ridiculously passive til 6 then either land really solid ults to catch up in farm or miss and die to Annie combo at full hp. AP solos are a bit of a problem since burst doesnt let kogmaw get those additional attacks he'd get from enemies auto attacking. He's absolutely fantastic verse melee and AD carries. Though he can't really solo top since he relies a bit on running back to tower.
He's a lot stronger and his usefulness is how well you know how far you can punish and not get blown to smithereens that makes his passive see a lot of daylight.
I still like going hex tech and chalice into guinsoo then AD. Confuses people
i just dominated an annie, get flat mr blues if you dont have them yet, makes versing ap carries a breeze in lane. absolutely essential runes to have atm in the state of the game
you outrange her in everyway possible so there's really no reason that you should ever get hit unless she flash tibbers, and the burst shouldnt kill you unless you are running a really squishy mastery/rune setup
On July 12 2011 09:45 bumatlarge wrote: The r buff is amazing, but I still cannot hold my own in a lane verse Annie, where you have to play ridiculously passive til 6 then either land really solid ults to catch up in farm or miss and die to Annie combo at full hp. AP solos are a bit of a problem since burst doesnt let kogmaw get those additional attacks he'd get from enemies auto attacking. He's absolutely fantastic verse melee and AD carries. Though he can't really solo top since he relies a bit on running back to tower.
He's a lot stronger and his usefulness is how well you know how far you can punish and not get blown to smithereens that makes his passive see a lot of daylight.
I still like going hex tech and chalice into guinsoo then AD. Confuses people
i just dominated an annie, get flat mr blues if you dont have them yet, makes versing ap carries a breeze in lane. absolutely essential runes to have atm in the state of the game
you outrange her in everyway possible so there's really no reason that you should ever get hit unless she flash tibbers, and the burst shouldnt kill you unless you are running a really squishy mastery/rune setup
MPen/Armor/MRes/Armor, Wit's End, Merc Treads ftw. I really like that on Kog.
What do people think of manamune->grb->archangel's->lichbane?
Reasoning:
Low CD on ult stacks tear, keeps GRB full, and keeps lich bane proced, while massive mana pool/regen lets kog use it freely. Manamune and rageblade are both low cost items -- they cost 275 more than a triforce for both of them, so you'll get them about when people rushing triforce finish it. You'll get archangel's about when AD carries are getting IE + PD up. Lich bane, then, doesn't come up every game, but if the game runs long, it seems strong. If the game runs REALLY long I don't know what you put in the last slot. Banshee's veil? Gunblade?
Math:
+1750+350+975 base mana 20+35+2%+100 base AD 45+45+48+80+3% AP
2100+975 = 3075 mana at level 18 55+61.5+100 = 216 AD at level 18 218+92.25 = 310 AP
Attacks hit for 216 AD + 310 AP (lich bane) + 9% max health (W) = 706 at range 750 against 2,000 HP opponent Ult hits for 400 + 0.3*310 + 0.5*216 = 601
This ignores resistence/pen, but the damage is highly mixed, so it's difficult to stack defense against it. Runes/masteries/boots are not included.
On July 13 2011 12:52 oberon wrote: What do people think of manamune->grb->archangel's->lichbane?
Reasoning:
Low CD on ult stacks tear, keeps GRB full, and keeps lich bane proced, while massive mana pool/regen lets kog use it freely. Manamune and rageblade are both low cost items -- they cost 275 more than a triforce for both of them, so you'll get them about when people rushing triforce finish it. You'll get archangel's about when AD carries are getting IE + PD up. Lich bane, then, doesn't come up every game, but if the game runs long, it seems strong. If the game runs REALLY long I don't know what you put in the last slot. Banshee's veil? Gunblade?
Math:
+1750+350+975 base mana 20+35+2%+100 base AD 45+45+48+80+3% AP
2100+975 = 3075 mana at level 18 55+61.5+100 = 216 AD at level 18 218+92.25 = 310 AP
Attacks hit for 216 AD + 310 AP (lich bane) + 9% max health (W) = 706 at range 750 against 2,000 HP opponent Ult hits for 400 + 0.3*310 + 0.5*216 = 601
This ignores resistence/pen, but the damage is highly mixed, so it's difficult to stack defense against it. Runes/masteries/boots are not included.
If you're getting archangels you might as well get deathcap to maximize your AP gain.
2x DRing + Boots1 -> Wit's End -> Sorcs or Mercs -> wide variety of kinda viable items; Malady, BR, IE...
Ideally going with 3 flat AP Quints so you can E>R caster minions more consistently starting at lvl 7 I think. Maybe 2 AP quints would be enough for that, haven't tried. Without them you leave the minions at like 10 HP and thus your own minions will immediately go for the lasthit on those.
DRings instead of the Philo I proposed earlier because of: Mana Regen, very helpful. The AP for clearing minions and you also have 4 (3 useful) AP ratios. The HP because of how you lane against casters: Survive their burst and retaliate heavily with EWRRR.
Runes still MPen/Armor/MRes and then AP or MR (or Armor if you need it) quints. Possibly HP/lvl seals, I don't even have those yet though.
Skills strictly R>E>W>Q. Why no Q? 1 additional rank in W: +30 range. 'nuff said. And 1% extra damage as a bonus.
AP Kog is still best kog ezpz. I'm a little scared that it's going to catch on if I keep smashing Guardsman Bob with it though. I actually saw some of his sheep calling it op in chat after I rolled him with it twice in the last two days.
Honestly I don't understand why you would go anything other than ap. Farming with ap kog is incredibly easy, and your burst and kiting is absolutely absurd. There is nothing more entertaining to me than watching some 3/4 ap ashe run at me and I just e+q+r and watch her pop... So satifying <3
AP Kog has a much longer startup time than going Wit's End. Wit's End only costs 2000 gold, all the major AP items you would want on AP Kog are in the 3000-4000 gold range. Wit's End even has a strong defensive component, while Deathcap and Archangel's are purely offensive items. AP Kog is not as good at killing towers and has more trouble against tanky champs (W scales better with ASpd than AP, at least until a certain point).
I'm not saying AP Kog is generally worse, but I definitely prefer the way Kog with Wit's End plays out.
AP Kog is also amazing in the frequent low ELO mid-tower staring competitions that happen every other game. BARF BARF BARF You don't need survivability as much as DPS Kog because 1) incredible range on R and 2) you don't need to stand there attacking for nearly as long. As spine said, though, it's mostly a matter of preference.
On July 23 2011 01:35 Tooplark wrote: AP Kog is also amazing in the frequent low ELO mid-tower staring competitions that happen every other game. BARF BARF BARF You don't need survivability as much as DPS Kog because 1) incredible range on R and 2) you don't need to stand there attacking for nearly as long. As spine said, though, it's mostly a matter of preference.
Ap Kog needs less survivability... You're not trying to get close to anyone. You just ult 10000 times, and if anyone tries to close on you, you use your q+e+w to beat them to death. I feel that AP kog is much better against teams with 2+ squishes, but vs a team full of tanks+tanky DPS, wits end malady is the way to go.
Also, for the record kog can handle lane udyr quite well. I haven't had to lane vs a competent jarman yet, but that's probably the lane I fear the most at this point.
On July 22 2011 17:49 spinesheath wrote: My newest thoughts on Kog:
2x DRing + Boots1 -> Wit's End -> Sorcs or Mercs -> wide variety of kinda viable items; Malady, BR, IE...
Ideally going with 3 flat AP Quints so you can E>R caster minions more consistently starting at lvl 7 I think. Maybe 2 AP quints would be enough for that, haven't tried. Without them you leave the minions at like 10 HP and thus your own minions will immediately go for the lasthit on those.
DRings instead of the Philo I proposed earlier because of: Mana Regen, very helpful. The AP for clearing minions and you also have 4 (3 useful) AP ratios. The HP because of how you lane against casters: Survive their burst and retaliate heavily with EWRRR.
Runes still MPen/Armor/MRes and then AP or MR (or Armor if you need it) quints. Possibly HP/lvl seals, I don't even have those yet though.
Skills strictly R>E>W>Q. Why no Q? 1 additional rank in W: +30 range. 'nuff said. And 1% extra damage as a bonus.
Is that still up to date?
Since he's free this week I'm trying to play the shit out of him (totally gonna buy him afterwards, I'm in love already), and my gut tells me he's horribly OP. With that kit he just has to be.
My thoughts: -Kog has a kit that benefis from the exact same items as teemo does. -Ghost is way stronger than Exhaust on him because his E is slowing like a boss and lategame Ghost/Frozen Mallet combo is boss.
I've been running him bot with support.
Masteries: I've been running 21/0/9 over 9/0/21 on him because the increased damage is (like on any ranged carry) worth it. I feel that he doesn't need the little extra MS/CDR. The mana regen is my main problem right now, but I think that proper spell usage makes it fine for him. (Kinda similar to Corki without tears)
Runes: I'm torn between ArPen and Mpen in Marks. A lot. Mpen SEEMS to be the obvious choice because you rush Wits/BR. However, I feel he gets more from ArPen. Everything that uses MPen for Kog is aimed to a) Shred tanks (W/BR) and therefore the 15% from offensive are way more benficial than 10 Mpen from runes. b) Burst squishies (Q/E) and those targets usually don't stack Armor.
--> I currently prefer the ArPen. Not sure at all on this part though.
My yellows/quints are flat AD, blues scaling AP.
Skills: I played around with maxing E and with maxing Q and I feel that maxing E is fine if you somehow find a manaresource (aka Soraka lane or Drings) but Q is just way cooler in terms of mana-management.
I started doing like EQQWQR, then get E to lvl 3, then max W > Q > E.
Why? I feel that Kog wants his Q in lane for burst and manamanagement, however he wants his W/E to be strong in teamfights.
lvl 3 E is fine because lvl 1 to 3 is like a 70% increase while 3 to 5 is about a 30% incrase in the slow. The AoE damage is nice and all, but you're still a ranged carry that relies on autoattacks.
Q is stronger than E in lane because of the reduction and the manacost, however its inferior to both E/W in teamfights.
I'm not 100% sure yet on when to get levels in Q/W, but more than 3 levels in E is definitly overkill.
Items: Boots+3. If I don't have soraka in lane I REALLY like a philostone, simply because of my masteries and runes mana is a huge bitch without it. Then it's straight to Wits End (if I can't afford recurve I rather get BR parts), then BR. For Boots once again I'm fucking my own logic over 'cause I'd get sorcs over serkers (if I dont need mercs) because they add more damage than 25% AS in the long run.
After Wits/BR your armor & mres hovers around 100, I feel then its the perfect time for Frozen Mallet (Belt > Health Crystal > Longsword). If the game STILL goes on I'd consider LW (I THINK it adds more raw dps at that point than voidstaff simply because, once again, 15% mpen in offense), Malady and Bloodthirster.
(Part of me would love to get a wriggles somewhere early but I don't have any gold after spending money on philo for sustain already. If someone finds a way to solo kog top or throw that thing in somewhere I'd love to hear about it.)
Honestly my main problem are really the Marks on him. I guess I should to the proper math vs targets with different health and resistance values but durp. :S
Millenium actually run Kog at their IEM China qualifier and he did pretty good ( tripple kill Sk npz). Yellowstar build him a bit different though, puting the main focus on his ad not as. He went for like 3x dorans into IE & Zeal.
I once got Nintendude on a smurf in one of my games and he went IE -> Triforce Kog bottom lane, something like R>W>Q>E probably (I don't think I ever saw him use E in lane). It worked extremely well. Runes... probably APen AR MR AD.
It just seems that you can build almost anything on Kog now and it works well if you rune/skill/play accordingly.
In a solo lane vs a caster, I would still go for Wit's End.
I just play him as an AD carry at bot with support. I start with dblade and I pretty much only use W and R (not stacked ) in lane so I never run out of mana. You do brutal damage even if you can get off 2-3 W'ed autoattacks on the enemy champ.
Usual stuff, rushing IE->phantom dancer.. Mallet is better on him than on any other carry basicly, so I get one in lategame.
On August 17 2011 22:17 r.Evo wrote: My thoughts: -Ghost is way stronger than Exhaust on him because his E is slowing like a boss and lategame Ghost/Frozen Mallet combo is boss.
Only problem with Ghost is that it doesn't really help you all too much against Nocturne/Lee Sin/Akali et al.
On August 17 2011 22:17 r.Evo wrote: My thoughts: -Ghost is way stronger than Exhaust on him because his E is slowing like a boss and lategame Ghost/Frozen Mallet combo is boss.
Only problem with Ghost is that it doesn't really help you all too much against Nocturne/Lee Sin/Akali et al.
When it reaches the point where they can blow you up without your team being able to do anything about it, you can just trollolol and buy that giants belt and be like SUP HI NOW U EXPLODE KKKKK.
Basicly the only AD champs where I don't get Exhaust on a regular Basis are Teemo (same reasoning, but it usually ends up being his best choice), Tristana (Exhaust vs 2+ divers, otherwise W/R is enough and ignite 2 good on her) and now... Kog. Actually durpgot is another candidate for no exhaust. Well, he would be, if I could think of any other spell that's decent on him.
It might be btw that I rarely meet good ones, but I usually don't consider Lee Sin as one of the OMG FUCK IM FUCKED divers (Nocturne / Akali / Irelia, sometimes Jarman). With decent positioning you can just fuck up his Q's all day. Unless he pulls some crazy Q/Flash/Ult stuff he usually has some trouble bursting right in your face.
Cheers for the video, gonna check that out asap. <3
I still build him the oldschool Boots -> Wits / BR -> possibly Malady -> Mallet. Although, against squishier teams a more typical AD build might be better.
I've been seeing kog played a lot in my low elo ranked games. As someone who typically plays a tank/tankydps role, what chars as a kog player do you like to see being on a team with you?
mumu with his cc ult? jarman holding people in (until they flash) to get your ulti off on them? I've never seen one want bot with support, just farm mid and be beastly all game long.
lee sin/kog/anivia would be my ideal carries/jungler for kog. blue buff anivia and red buff kog all day every day
the soraka nerf is also a nerf to kog though as that was really his only good laning partner for bot. I guess janna can work but the no recoverable mana real bad for kog
I'd rather have a caster that doesn't need blue because blue on Kog is awesome. I'd trade red buff for blue buff any day.
Kog can do fairly well with lots of supports actually. His earlygame burst is quite strong and if you max W and Q, you shouldn't have too much of a mana issue during laning (and lategame Infuse on Kog is just laughable).
(it's not even decided yet whether that was a Soraka nerf or buff btw)
without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
On August 24 2011 23:50 Brees wrote: lee sin/kog/anivia would be my ideal carries/jungler for kog. blue buff anivia and red buff kog all day every day
the soraka nerf is also a nerf to kog though as that was really his only good laning partner for bot. I guess janna can work but the no recoverable mana real bad for kog
Alistar is an amazing partner with kog. Support tank initiate peeler. Please and thank you. Janna and taric are great as well. Soraka nerf doesn't hurt cog more then every other ranged AD.
On August 25 2011 03:09 Brees wrote: without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
On August 25 2011 03:09 Brees wrote: without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
blue brings nearly endless ulti harass.
or endless harass on your actual AP carry that will actually do damage with spells 0o
On August 25 2011 03:09 Brees wrote: without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
Here's how you fight as Kog Maw: You turn on W and hit anything that comes into range. Your enemies are forced to engage on you or run for their lives (the latter means you just won the fight). If they engage on you, Q+Exhaust, possibly E. No need for red buff. So where do I need the bluebuff? 400 base damage, 1 second cooldown. While you DPS the melees, you nuke the casters/ranged ADs in the back rows. If your casters were to engage on the enemy casters/ranged ADs, they would inevitably put themselves in retaliation range (caster vs caster zzz).
And you seriously think I shouldn't be casting that 400 AoE DPS 2200 range ultimate once I got my BR? 400 DPS. Not to mention that BR isn't mandatory on Kog.
On August 25 2011 03:09 Brees wrote: without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
blue brings nearly endless ulti harass.
or endless harass on your actual AP carry that will actually do damage with spells 0o
Depends what AP the team has, not all APs have long range harass. Kogmaw poke is pretty badass lategame when you are sieging a tower or something
On August 25 2011 03:09 Brees wrote: without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
Here's how you fight as Kog Maw: You turn on W and hit anything that comes into range. Your enemies are forced to engage on you or run for their lives (the latter means you just won the fight). If they engage on you, Q+Exhaust, possibly E. No need for red buff. So where do I need the bluebuff? 400 base damage, 1 second cooldown. While you DPS the melees, you nuke the casters/ranged ADs in the back rows. If your casters were to engage on the enemy casters/ranged ADs, they would inevitably put themselves in retaliation range (caster vs caster zzz).
And you seriously think I shouldn't be casting that 400 AoE DPS 2200 range ultimate once I got my BR? 400 DPS. Not to mention that BR isn't mandatory on Kog.
I think once you reach a certain threadshold in AS casting your ult lower your overall damage even if you time it properly since it has somewhat long cast time. But im a terrible Kog so I might be totally wrong.
On August 25 2011 03:09 Brees wrote: without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
Here's how you fight as Kog Maw: You turn on W and hit anything that comes into range. Your enemies are forced to engage on you or run for their lives (the latter means you just won the fight). If they engage on you, Q+Exhaust, possibly E. No need for red buff. So where do I need the bluebuff? 400 base damage, 1 second cooldown. While you DPS the melees, you nuke the casters/ranged ADs in the back rows. If your casters were to engage on the enemy casters/ranged ADs, they would inevitably put themselves in retaliation range (caster vs caster zzz).
And you seriously think I shouldn't be casting that 400 AoE DPS 2200 range ultimate once I got my BR? 400 DPS. Not to mention that BR isn't mandatory on Kog.
I think once you reach a certain threadshold in AS casting your ult lower your overall damage even if you time it properly since it has somewhat long cast time. But im a terrible Kog so I might be totally wrong.
You should not be in a position to autoattack enemy squshies (unless you are cleaning up after the fight). Even though you have to deal with the enemy melees, you should still spam your ult on the enemy squishies as those typically are the highest priority targets.
I think I'm gonna try some games out as Kog with a more traditional AD build. Like IE, Phantom, maybe Last Whisper or some AS (possibly even another Phantom).
I know a lot of top players rush BR but some of them rush IE and I'm wondering if you really need the BR when W does the same thing (but better). Dunno, if I build BR I feel like I'm mostly doing magic damage but if I go with IE I'm hybrid and my opponents have to build both MR and Armor. Wanna play around with it for a few days before I decide which build I like better as I usually do the BR rush.
On August 24 2011 22:11 locodoco wrote: i disagree with bloodrazor or any other kind of on-hit build 1~3 doran sword->serker->ie->zeal->trinity imo
Care to share WHY you think the IE builds > the on hit builds? :>
Pretty much what the post above yours says Chauster touched on it yesterday on stream too It's like why rush your bloodrazor when you have a free one on w? Same reason pirate doesn't rush mallet and cho doesn't build warmogs
On August 24 2011 22:11 locodoco wrote: i disagree with bloodrazor or any other kind of on-hit build 1~3 doran sword->serker->ie->zeal->trinity imo
Care to share WHY you think the IE builds > the on hit builds? :>
Pretty much what the post above yours says Chauster touched on it yesterday on stream too It's like why rush your bloodrazor when you have a free one on w? Same reason pirate doesn't rush mallet and cho doesn't build warmogs
why would chauster say that when jiji rushed madreds every game as kog in IEM???
On August 24 2011 22:11 locodoco wrote: i disagree with bloodrazor or any other kind of on-hit build 1~3 doran sword->serker->ie->zeal->trinity imo
Care to share WHY you think the IE builds > the on hit builds? :>
Pretty much what the post above yours says Chauster touched on it yesterday on stream too It's like why rush your bloodrazor when you have a free one on w? Same reason pirate doesn't rush mallet and cho doesn't build warmogs
What about...
"I have a great on-hit ability." -> "I prefer AS over AD cause that synergizes with that ability." -> "Oh, AS synergizes with more on-hit items, let's get em!"
Pretty much the same reasoning that's behind Teemo-builds.
I'm not sure what's the standard on vayne at high elo right now, but I remember some double zeal -> IE/BT builds that were floating around. Similar reasoning there.
EXCEPT: Kog doesnt scale at ALL with AD. (Yeah his ult, but that's no major factor when you don't have a blue buff). That's the main reason that pushes him more towards Teemo (on-hit builds) than "standard AD carry builds".
I think BR rush and Wit's End/Malady can work fine. Against some teams it's probably better than building standard AD such as super tanky teams. But with just IE and a Phantom Dancer plus his W you kill squishy champs really fast like, faster than BR build. With W you can stand way back in team fights and basically work as an assassin against the enemy's carries. It's pretty fun.
If your team gives you blue buff your R hurts when you go AD as opposed to the BR/AS build. I think they can both work but I'm starting to feel like traditional AD is just straight up better. At least in unorganized solo queue games. I may go Trinity Force after IE/Phantom as loco suggested up a few posts, seems good if the game drags on that long.
On August 25 2011 03:09 Brees wrote: without red you need to cast E to line up your ults and W in lane, so it gets maxed first for me personally. Its the only thing that keeps him relevant until he gets bloodrazor
and without red hes pretty much useless, people just run when you turn on W. not sure what blue brings to the table since you shouldnt be casting spells past bloodrazor
blue brings nearly endless ulti harass.
or endless harass on your actual AP carry that will actually do damage with spells 0o
Unless your AP carry is orianna or someone else with that kind of ridiculous range, blue buff on kog can give your team unmatched ability to siege a tower without your team ever needing to directly engage the other team and initiate a teamfight.
BR/Wit's End offers ASpd which is what Kog's W scales best with. It also deals magic damage so you can go MPen without feeling bad about it.
IE on Kog simply relies on the fact that IE is ridiculous right now and Kog's autoattack range is godlike. There also is the issue that currently Kog is usually taking the place of the physical ranged DPS and as such dealing physical damage isn't such a bad idea. You usually have plenty of magic damage from your solo lanes.
Not sure why people rush BR though. Wit's End is so much better midgame.
On August 27 2011 03:18 NeoIllusions wrote: How does Malady compare with Wit's End? :O
As far as I know it is roughly equal in terms of damage, but Wit's End also has a pretty significant amount of MR. So it's almost straight up worse. I might be wrong, but a while ago I tried both on Teemo and Malady never seemed to deal more damage than Wit's End so I put Malady on the "never get this item"-list. Once again.
Teemo actually gets more DPS out of Wit's End. Kog's steroid is a ton stronger though (it's the best in the game) so he actually gets a *lot* out of Malady. Both are pretty good according to my math theorycrafts. People say that the flat reduction from Malady falls off late game, and of course it technically does, but my spreadsheet shows that it's an overstated point. However, wit's end does provide a lot more mres for a small dip in DPS so I'd definitely get it if you're worried about magic damage (which is 90% of the time).
Also I second the notion that IE builds are overrated in this thread, at least for the wrong reasons. They're way way weaker before IE is done and even after the holy IE + PD + LW combo they're still not as cost effective as on hit builds. They have three pluses not already mentioned: they're probably stronger super super late game, they're better for turret pushing, and they work with lifesteal. If you need a champ dead though nothing on Kog will do it faster than on hit items.
On August 27 2011 02:32 spinesheath wrote: BR/Wit's End offers ASpd which is what Kog's W scales best with. It also deals magic damage so you can go MPen without feeling bad about it.
IE on Kog simply relies on the fact that IE is ridiculous right now and Kog's autoattack range is godlike. There also is the issue that currently Kog is usually taking the place of the physical ranged DPS and as such dealing physical damage isn't such a bad idea. You usually have plenty of magic damage from your solo lanes.
Not sure why people rush BR though. Wit's End is so much better midgame.
If you're stuck at bot rushing BR actually DOES something. (Pickaxe + Razor so much more usefull stats for botlane than the finished Wits End)
For Solos (never played him solo tbh) I'd guess it should depend entirely on your lane.(AP/AD etc.)
Ideal case you want the BR as early as possible, but the Wits End once teamfights really break out. It's just so damn good and cost effective there.
BR has never failed me as kog, because you are always hitting the bulky people in every teamfight because you can afford to in those moments you wait for your initation to drag out the squishies or if you are forced to move back. It takes 400 AP to replicate BR, and BR additionally gives AD, AS and Armor, all things Kog can use. Disregarding it because of your W is very silly reasoning, it's relatively easy to build up, and tanks cannot deal with Massive AD+AP damage at that range.
If I don't get the farm for a BF sword immediately, it's an easy choice. And if I get the IE, BR is always my next item. People building tanky is just too prominent for me not to get it.
I pretty much settled on 21 0 9 for bot, not much experience with solo yet but I assume 9 21 0 is the way to go.
FOR ITEMS.
I'm playing around with Manamune and I really like it a lot. It's kinda similar to Manamune on Corki and helps so much with ult all game.
Right now my core is Manamune -> Wits End.
Then it depends. Enemy team rather squishy, I favor IE builds, enemies rather bulky I favor BR next. I'm debating to get rid of Wits End for the IE builds in favor of Manamune -> zeal -> IE -> standard AD crap.
If I'm going for the AD route my defense item is usually Banshees, if I'm going for the BR route I'm going for Frozen Mallet.
Also, gunblade is pretty boss on Kog (better than like BT), playing around when to get that thing best atm.
HOWEVER, THE #1 REASON TO PLAY KOGMAW IS /JOKE. IT RAISES TEAM MORALE AND MAKES YOU WIN GAMES.
I like to strategically position dance where I think they will CV.
I really like BT into PD, because it really lets you practice the orb walk/kiting or whatever you want to call it. Gotta try manamune though that sounds fun. I usually get into trouble spamming ult too much. I never really notice the Wit's End MR benefits, I think just grabbing the zeal then heading to PD is better.
Update me on your adventures, I always play AD kog in solo Q given the chance.
I have been doing this on Kog for most of my games with him,
15/0/15 Masteries, going down to + AD in offense and + movement speed in utility because of how slow Kog is.
I take Flat AD reds and Quints, flat mp5 yellows and AP/level blues.
The core item build is to go Doran's, boots, doran's(if you need to) into trinity force. For building trinity you should grab a sword and a tome along with a zeal, then finish the trinity.
After trinity you build your Madred's.
The idea behind the build is to skill R-W-E-Q and use your range to harass and last hit, and build boots/zeal first so that you can use your movement speed to position for ganks. You can also kite like a boss if you can get red or are good with your e.
On September 02 2011 10:22 Leffrey wrote: I have been doing this on Kog for most of my games with him,
15/0/15 Masteries, going down to + AD in offense and + movement speed in utility because of how slow Kog is.
I take Flat AD reds and Quints, flat mp5 yellows and AP/level blues.
The core item build is to go Doran's, boots, doran's(if you need to) into trinity force. For building trinity you should grab a sword and a tome along with a zeal, then finish the trinity.
After trinity you build your Madred's.
The idea behind the build is to skill R-W-E-Q and use your range to harass and last hit, and build boots/zeal first so that you can use your movement speed to position for ganks. You can also kite like a boss if you can get red or are good with your e.
Why on earth would you run flat mp5 yellows? The per levels overtake them by the point where you actually need mana on him. He isn't exactly a spam monster in lane pre lvl 6.
For masteries: 21 9 0 works great, so does 9 21 0, so does 9 0 21. The trick is to pick the proper one for the current situation. (I actually think I have to take 15 0 15 in there too. Kog doesn't like the crit damage part in offense and loves MS/Manaregen). I'll play around with it.
I pick 21 9 0 when I assume a rather easy laning phase to maximise my damage output.
9 21 0 is for really rough times (probably solo lanes too). (Think Kog/Janna vs MF/Taric).
9 0 21 is kinda middle of the road, utility is great and all, but I feel the other two outshine it either lategame or earlygame.
@Brees: 1 8 21 is imo flat out horrible. Not chosing MPen makes Wits End/BR bad choices (just the OPTION to get em is great) and it makes your W do less damage. It's just bad.
On September 02 2011 04:13 bumatlarge wrote: I like to strategically position dance where I think they will CV.
I really like BT into PD, because it really lets you practice the orb walk/kiting or whatever you want to call it. Gotta try manamune though that sounds fun. I usually get into trouble spamming ult too much. I never really notice the Wit's End MR benefits, I think just grabbing the zeal then heading to PD is better.
Update me on your adventures, I always play AD kog in solo Q given the chance.
The main reasons why I keep staying away from both BT and PD:
Bloodthirster is great on champs who have a mediocre range (aka not Tristana/Caitlyn) and on champs with strong AD ratios (think MF/Urgot). For straight up autoattackers IE is just plain better. Kog has horribad AD ratios and a pretty huge effective range. Also, Gunblade is just flat out better on him.
After seeing LoCicero play around with switching out BT for Gunblade on Panth I started trying it on Kog. It's awesome. If you feel that you need lifesteal, get Gunblade. For real. So good.
Phantomdancer is great on champs who want attackspeed AND crit chance. A part of me assumes that it's a bad idea on Kog if you DONT go the IE route. However, you're probably right when it comes to wits end being a bad idea of you want to build IE.
For me it's just similar to Vayne... I feel SO BAD about building zeal -> IE -> PD on champs who have such insane synergy with attack speed. Vayne can get around that because BT is a great item on her, but as stated above it's pretty bad on Kog.
I should try Manamune -> Zeal -> Gunblade. Trollololol.
(The Manamune feels clutch to me too, especially considering I'm one of the guys who never got it on Corki botlane either, however I feel it's a pretty cool clutch item cause it solves so many early game issues at once.)
About the Mres on Wits End: Basicly every single time you get Wits End you have in the back of your mind that your next "defensive" item will be Frozen Mallet and not Banshees. FM+Wits is boss.
---> If you're playing a game where you think BV is crucial, don't get Wits End, opt for one of the other routes.
tl;dr: The real question about kog is not what items/masteries work on him, but WHEN they work on him.
tl;dr #2: The other question is how to use your inventory slots since cheap items (Manamune/Wits etc.) are so boss on him. :/
If anyone here can make Kog solo top work, please tell me how. (spines?) - I just can't get it to work, every single non-retarded laner shits all over me.
Also my current main issue: Manamune feels so great all the way through mid/lategame. However, it's incredibly clutch for laning. You have even less presence than with anything else before the manamune is finished and by then a strong bot lane will have raped you all day long.
I personally am not sold on Manamune/gunblade yet. Jiji did run manamune in tourney though so I do have to take it more seriously. Gunblade, on the other hand.... maybe later in the game, but if you're rushing it before your second "big" item you're grabbing a little lifesteal when you could be killing crap twice as fast.
As for solo top Kog I'll defer to spine. I really haven't found a way of making it work unless you get lucky and the lane is retarded or some weird crap like Mundo. Most of the bruisers up top have dashes, sustainability, and do craptons of harass at the same time.
In mid you can actually lane pretty well vs Annie but I haven't been successful vs stronger mids like Brand yet.
Generally top is bad for slow champs without escapes like Kog (and Ashe). You could try MSpd quints and ASpd marks, 3/3 MSpd mastery (probably 1/14/15), Exhaust+Flash, E W -> R>W>Q>E, Boots + 3 -> Boots2 + Zeal. No idea if that works though. You would kite as much as you can, and threaten Q + Exhaust for insane damage as soon as the enemy gets too close. No flashing away like a chicken.
Oh. Hurpdurp. Kinda assumed you're talking about top when it's about soloing Kog. Can't see him work mid at all. :S
My problem about Kog lane choice goes kinda like this:
-I'm okay bot but I kinda get shit on by every other strong AD/support lane, I don't even want to mention anti-AD/support lanes. (Am I doing it wrong? I just feel as if I can't trade vs any competent AD carry) -Mid? Against Oriannas, Brands, Morganas and all that other crap that one shots me if I ever not dodge a skillshot? No thx. Also then I have to deal with AP carries bitching about having to go top. -Top? If I can lane Teemo/Corki/Cait top, Kog has to work somehow, too. Besides Kog is one of those cases where levels are huge (kinda similar to Corki and Durpgot especially)
But yeah, not escape kinda sucks balls.
So far I was being a chicken and got some points in E early, I'll try Q>W and report back after being a brave battlekog. :S
On September 03 2011 04:11 spinesheath wrote: Seriously with this EU style bot lane crap people seem to have lost the ability to lnae in the safest lane there is.
Agree 100%. Try to solo mid with an AD carry nowadays and people are like "OMG, you can't solo vs <insert random AP carry here> on Trist/Kog/Ashe/whatever" when you had to do this all the time before the EU meta took over.
I'll give not using the Mpen mastery a shot. Everything I use is build around that atm, maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.
I kinda keep assuming he's like Corki/Trist who both LOVE the mpen mastery. Hurpdurp. You build BR too, right brees? And you feel that you're raping tanks anyway, also true? :>
I build him as a laner. Do whatever it takes to absolutely crush your lane. The only ad carry he has trouble with is caitlyn since she can contend in range, rest of carries you can deny easily
Doesn't matter what you build when your ahead of their carry but I usually go wits end/greaves/BR/veil/triforce in that order
On September 03 2011 04:29 Brees wrote: I build him as a laner. Do whatever it takes to absolutely crush your lane. The only ad carry he has trouble with is caitlyn since she can contend in range, rest of carries you can deny easily
Then why do you go 21 utility lol
Basically the only thing in utility that really helps you in lane is the movespeed mastery. There's a reason why everyone switched to 21 offense on ranged ADs by now. The utility tree is suffering from a lack of earlygame strength.
exhaust/flash are gamechanging bot lane....have fun exchanging them then next engage I shit on you with them up
also the mana regen, cd, movespeed is all useful as well as the very important full buff duration timer. good hands is pretty legit too since I usually play him as a walking turret meaning I dont run from shit. Just output as much damage as possible then die then passive ---> repeat
^--- Like the last 2-3 pages are full of not completely stupid players telling each other what works for them and trying to destroy weird ideas. I think we're getting somewhere. =D
Brees: I keep having the feeling you're doing something else than me. Like, something major. Got some replays? Doesn't have to be huge, just some support ad vs support ad with a solid laning phase mostly.
I dont use LOLreplays so not really. basically just kite with W/E in lane and I never cast Q/R unless im trying to snipe some one that got out of range. If they move towards you you step back and use your superior range to get free hits vs slowed champions... teamfights I just hit whatever is available and if i get jumped on I exhaust ---> stand still and keep autoing until I die. No reason to ever really run with kog, just output as much damage as possible then use passive.
On September 02 2011 22:23 phyvo wrote: I personally am not sold on Manamune/gunblade yet. Jiji did run manamune in tourney though so I do have to take it more seriously. Gunblade, on the other hand.... maybe later in the game, but if you're rushing it before your second "big" item you're grabbing a little lifesteal when you could be killing crap twice as fast.
As for solo top Kog I'll defer to spine. I really haven't found a way of making it work unless you get lucky and the lane is retarded or some weird crap like Mundo. Most of the bruisers up top have dashes, sustainability, and do craptons of harass at the same time.
In mid you can actually lane pretty well vs Annie but I haven't been successful vs stronger mids like Brand yet.
Kog is jokes top. You can swing to contest blue safely with your jungler due to your ult and you can pretend to be sion by maxing e and 2 shotting the lane with r e. Alternatively you can just vomit E at your opponent, and if he gets hit and you aimed properly, you're looking at 2-3 free w powered hits. Q is a pile of crap so don't get it.
Just trade properly and abuse the bushes and your range to create huge threat zones for your opponent.
Q is actually pretty damn good if you have enemies that can and will jump you. Q + Exhaust + W => Who said melee > ranged after the gap has been closed?
I asked fragnat1c and he says to go for IE every time and then PD, no BT, Madreds, malady, etc. Not sure what his masteries are but I'd imagine 21/x/x. Runes are standard AD carry runes with apen/defense or some mp5/apen. Do people still level R>W>E>Q? I haven't really ever seen kog win vs cait but I guess kog does more damage later on?
This is probably a retarded question but does mpen affect the bonus magic damage done by MB and W? I assumed so but one of my friends told me it doesn't and I'm not sure if he was trolling me or not...
On September 25 2011 08:01 gosuMalicE wrote: This is probably a retarded question but does mpen affect the bonus magic damage done by MB and W? I assumed so but one of my friends told me it doesn't and I'm not sure if he was trolling me or not...
Your MPen applies to all Magic Damage you do, regardless of the source. So any item/autoattack/spell that does Magic Damage will run off your MPen stat. The same applies for any Physical Damage you do, but with respect to APen.
On September 25 2011 08:01 gosuMalicE wrote: This is probably a retarded question but does mpen affect the bonus magic damage done by MB and W? I assumed so but one of my friends told me it doesn't and I'm not sure if he was trolling me or not...
Your MPen applies to all Magic Damage you do, regardless of the source. So any item/autoattack/spell that does Magic Damage will run off your MPen stat. The same applies for any Physical Damage you do, but with respect to APen.
See that's what I thought, now I don't feel like such an asshole for arguing the point with him.
Also I'm running Attack speed Quints, Apen marks and Mpen glyphs/seals. my skill priority is W>R>E>Q I open boots +3 health pots My core Item build is sorc shoes -> recurve bow -> MB -> BF sword -> BC After that I get survivability if its needed, and prioritize attack speed in my last items PD/IE if I can afford it, Malady/Wits End otherwise.
I seem to dominate every game I play building like this but I'm only level 26 so I'm sure that will change when I can play ranked games. If there is anything glaringly wrong with my build let me know.
On September 25 2011 08:01 gosuMalicE wrote: This is probably a retarded question but does mpen affect the bonus magic damage done by MB and W? I assumed so but one of my friends told me it doesn't and I'm not sure if he was trolling me or not...
Your MPen applies to all Magic Damage you do, regardless of the source. So any item/autoattack/spell that does Magic Damage will run off your MPen stat. The same applies for any Physical Damage you do, but with respect to APen.
See that's what I thought, now I don't feel like such an asshole for arguing the point with him.
Also I'm running Attack speed Quints, Apen marks and Mpen glyphs/seals. my skill priority is W>R>E>Q I open boots +3 health pots My core Item build is sorc shoes -> recurve bow -> MB -> BF sword -> BC After that I get survivability if its needed, and prioritize attack speed in my last items PD/IE if I can afford it, Malady/Wits End otherwise.
I seem to dominate every game I play building like this but I'm only level 26 so I'm sure that will change when I can play ranked games. If there is anything glaringly wrong with my build let me know.
At ranked games people knows how to jump on carries. Kog blows at low elo because no one knows how to support the guy proper.
On September 25 2011 08:01 gosuMalicE wrote: This is probably a retarded question but does mpen affect the bonus magic damage done by MB and W? I assumed so but one of my friends told me it doesn't and I'm not sure if he was trolling me or not...
Your MPen applies to all Magic Damage you do, regardless of the source. So any item/autoattack/spell that does Magic Damage will run off your MPen stat. The same applies for any Physical Damage you do, but with respect to APen.
See that's what I thought, now I don't feel like such an asshole for arguing the point with him.
Also I'm running Attack speed Quints, Apen marks and Mpen glyphs/seals. my skill priority is W>R>E>Q I open boots +3 health pots My core Item build is sorc shoes -> recurve bow -> MB -> BF sword -> BC After that I get survivability if its needed, and prioritize attack speed in my last items PD/IE if I can afford it, Malady/Wits End otherwise.
I seem to dominate every game I play building like this but I'm only level 26 so I'm sure that will change when I can play ranked games. If there is anything glaringly wrong with my build let me know.
At ranked games people knows how to jump on carries. Kog blows at low elo because no one knows how to support the guy proper.
Well I know that, Its not like kog is the only hero i can use well either, I was just asking about the viability of my build, and your post didn't really respond to that.
Standard AD item is best build on Kog IMO since ult has .5 AD ratio and you can kill towers faster etc. zulu_nation8 posted the items I'd agree are best for that. But on-hit effect build is fine too. It's a waste to go both arpen and mpen, just stack arpen quint/reds and run attack speed in yellow/blues if you don't feel like you need defensive runes (which you do, but if you prefer not to...). Sorc shoes is kind of dumb since MBR is there for killing tanks, and you won't be doing anywhere near true damage to them anyway; get merc treads or zerker greaves instead. If getting MBR, you should follow with phage into frozen mallet for the hp and obviously the slow proc.
On September 25 2011 10:46 TieN.nS) wrote: Standard AD item is best build on Kog IMO since ult has .5 AD ratio and you can kill towers faster etc. zulu_nation8 posted the items I'd agree are best for that. But on-hit effect build is fine too. It's a waste to go both arpen and mpen, just stack arpen quint/reds and run attack speed in yellow/blues if you don't feel like you need defensive runes (which you do, but if you prefer not to...). Sorc shoes is kind of dumb since MBR is there for killing tanks, and you won't be doing anywhere near true damage to them anyway; get merc treads or zerker greaves instead. If getting MBR, you should follow with phage into frozen mallet for the hp and obviously the slow proc.
Thanks for the advice, I will try that out. I skip the defensive runes because IMO if you are getting hit as kog the battle is already over, but If I did use them what do you suggest? Just flat armor/mres for yellow/blue slots? Also should i get the phage before the Black cleaver? It really feels like I cant do enough damage unless I grab that early BF sword.
I would not go black cleaver on Kog'Maw. Black Cleaver is an item that's best in the midgame, where the armor reduction means that you're doing true damage to people. In lvl 26 summoner games this may be true the entire game but yeah... Frozen Mallet is needed ASAP after MBR if you are going MBR. It's good because more on-hit effects of course, and it provides much needed hp and ability to kite. I would go flat armor and flat mr for yellows/blues, yes, or maybe scaling hp yellows. It's true that getting hit in fights means you've already screwed up, but the runes will still make a huge difference in lane.
If you feel like you do no damage, try out standard AD items in most games and fall back on MBR/on-hit effects build only if they have a lot of tanks.
You don't really need defense on AD carries because their purpose is just to do damage. Getting things like Frozen mallet is just bad and it wont help your team. The only def items recommended for carries are QSS, banshees or GA.
On September 25 2011 11:41 DarkRise wrote: You don't really need defense on AD carries because their purpose is just to do damage. Getting things like Frozen mallet is just bad and it wont help your team. The only def items recommended for carries are QSS, banshees or GA.
to elaborate on this, as an AD carry, you shouldnt be getting hit because your whole team will be trying thier hardest to keep you alive, when the AD carry goes down, its usually the rest of the team not doing thier jobs well.
Kog maw has the second highest ad per ratio with 1.66 after vaynes 1.88.
howerver he has more basw speed and dmg i believe at start , going something else than an ad build and your gimping his dmg.
I usually go zerkers - zeal - infinite edge - phantom dancer - black cleaver - bloodthirst + it depends.
After q in end game i can do 1400 crits in full ad build + w % health percentage dmg in cap speed , no other ad carry comes close ( maybe ulti vayne) when w is running and after the q debuff.
On September 25 2011 11:41 DarkRise wrote: You don't really need defense on AD carries because their purpose is just to do damage. Getting things like Frozen mallet is just bad and it wont help your team. The only def items recommended for carries are QSS, banshees or GA.
to elaborate on this, as an AD carry, you shouldnt be getting hit because your whole team will be trying thier hardest to keep you alive, when the AD carry goes down, its usually the rest of the team not doing thier jobs well.
When an ad carry goes down its often because of a great ambush or the ad carriers mistake. I don't like the attitude of I keep dying because other people on my team suck. I'm not the best at Kog Maw but most guides written by people who are tend to include a single tanking idem to make him a more versatile champion. One more attacking idem might kill a champion 20% faster but a defensive item would keep him alive twice as long being a glass cannon is covered by the law of diminishing returns.
On September 25 2011 11:41 DarkRise wrote: You don't really need defense on AD carries because their purpose is just to do damage. Getting things like Frozen mallet is just bad and it wont help your team. The only def items recommended for carries are QSS, banshees or GA.
to elaborate on this, as an AD carry, you shouldnt be getting hit because your whole team will be trying thier hardest to keep you alive, when the AD carry goes down, its usually the rest of the team not doing thier jobs well.
When an ad carry goes down its often because of a great ambush or the ad carriers mistake. I don't like the attitude of I keep dying because other people on my team suck. I'm not the best at Kog Maw but most guides written by people who are tend to include a single tanking idem to make him a more versatile champion. One more attacking idem might kill a champion 20% faster but a defensive item would keep him alive twice as long being a glass cannon is covered by the law of diminishing returns.
There are AD carries because building AD has no diminishing returns or close.
On September 25 2011 11:41 DarkRise wrote: You don't really need defense on AD carries because their purpose is just to do damage. Getting things like Frozen mallet is just bad and it wont help your team. The only def items recommended for carries are QSS, banshees or GA.
to elaborate on this, as an AD carry, you shouldnt be getting hit because your whole team will be trying thier hardest to keep you alive, when the AD carry goes down, its usually the rest of the team not doing thier jobs well.
When an ad carry goes down its often because of a great ambush or the ad carriers mistake. I don't like the attitude of I keep dying because other people on my team suck. I'm not the best at Kog Maw but most guides written by people who are tend to include a single tanking idem to make him a more versatile champion. One more attacking idem might kill a champion 20% faster but a defensive item would keep him alive twice as long being a glass cannon is covered by the law of diminishing returns.
There are AD carries because building AD has no diminishing returns or close.
If you do 100 damage and you get an item that increases it by 50 you're killing things 50% faster. When you do 200 damage that same item only increases your output by 25%. The diminishing returns are not as sharp as armour or magic resist but it still makes less and less difference the more ad items you have. Also as time goes on its more likely they'll get thornmail and if you have no health items you'll kill yourself doing 6227 damage but if you get a single frozen Mallet you can withstand dishing out 8560.
On September 25 2011 11:41 DarkRise wrote: You don't really need defense on AD carries because their purpose is just to do damage. Getting things like Frozen mallet is just bad and it wont help your team. The only def items recommended for carries are QSS, banshees or GA.
to elaborate on this, as an AD carry, you shouldnt be getting hit because your whole team will be trying thier hardest to keep you alive, when the AD carry goes down, its usually the rest of the team not doing thier jobs well.
When an ad carry goes down its often because of a great ambush or the ad carriers mistake. I don't like the attitude of I keep dying because other people on my team suck. I'm not the best at Kog Maw but most guides written by people who are tend to include a single tanking idem to make him a more versatile champion. One more attacking idem might kill a champion 20% faster but a defensive item would keep him alive twice as long being a glass cannon is covered by the law of diminishing returns.
There are AD carries because building AD has no diminishing returns or close.
If you do 100 damage and you get an item that increases it by 50 you're killing things 50% faster. When you do 200 damage that same item only increases your output by 25%. The diminishing returns are not as sharp as armour or magic resist but it still makes less and less difference the more ad items you have. Also as time goes on its more likely they'll get thornmail and if you have no health items you'll kill yourself doing 6227 damage but if you get a single frozen Mallet you can withstand dishing out 8560.
I forever hate the term "diminishing returns". It's the most abused term in the gaming lexicon save for "mature".
But only mature games really use diminishing returns in their metagame. I was just trying to say the first of any type item is going to make a lot more difference than the sixth of any type of item.
On February 12 2012 07:27 SCdinner wrote: But only mature games really use diminishing returns in their metagame. I was just trying to say the first of any type item is going to make a lot more difference than the sixth of any type of item.
Not really. Compare IE + FM to IE + PD/BT. Eventually, yes, a tank item is more valuable, but some really good items are bad to just get as a 1 damage item, because it depends on having more than just that item to do damage. IE being the cardinal example. Critting for 250% crit damage isn't that hot when you have 20% crit.
There are an increasing number of high mobility champions that can get on your junk without putting in much effort (Fizz, Riven, Volibear, Ahri, etc), delaying defensive items for too long is a really bad idea. It's great if you can go straight IE/PD/BT, but I find this is happens a lot less often now. More often I start wriggles, finish off IE/zeal, then get a giant's belt or phage. You don't have to build into frozen mallet immediately for the components to be useful.
Personally I prefer 3xdblades to wriggles simply because 300 HP does so much more for your early survivability than 20-ish armor, especially when supports often do a good amount of magic damage and if they don't their mid/jungler certainly will.
Doran blade into pot and lvl1 boots into as boots into infinity edge or phantom dancer. Then madred's. Bllod thruster. Then if it gets late enough that ionic spark sell boots buy a second phantom dancers gg.
Doran blade into pot and lvl1 boots into as boots into infinity edge or phantom dancer. Then madred's. Bllod thruster. Then if it gets late enough that ionic spark sell boots buy a second phantom dancers gg.
That's an inefficient build. MBR Kog and AD Kog both do good DPS if built separately but if mixed you end up gimping your DPS. IE/BT don't work with MBR or spark's magic damage like they would with BC or another PD. MBR/WE work best when comboed with more AS/magic on hit items. I'm not making crap up here, it's a mathematical reality in terms of the DPS you're pumping out.
In any case MBR builds are situational at best nowadays.
If I wanted to mix up my BO playing Kog today I'd go BC/PD/IE instead of typical IE/PD/LW rush. Similar DPS but you get your PD earlier.
i really only like getting mbr if there is really tanking shenanigans really is going on. not to say the passive and the dmg isn't bad.
cause really i am doing things for the damage and attack speed and the passive magic damage hits are a side benifit. but at las though i am a terrible player. as i am only really any good with kog, in a competent sense(plays sc2 mainly and playing dota2 beta sometimes) kog would be such a beast at denying creeps LOL.
if i played ranks i would probably think more throughly my item builds.
I disagree about AP Kog'Maw. You have to really build a team around him because he's so dependent upon the Blue Buff, but if you manage to control both Blue Buffs (meaning you generally have to start on the Purple Side for easier invading) he can be one of the strongest AP Champs late game. Granted, he's extremely weak to certain Junglers ganking him earlier (such as Maokai) in the game so you have to double ward both sides of the river constantly, but late game he has such good poke that as long as you can get blue buff no team can properly defend or engage objectives such as towers, buffs, dragon, or baron. I don't think it's as good as AD Kog'Maw, but AP Kog is a pretty legit build if he has good synergy with the rest of your team.
On March 07 2012 11:13 HeroHenry wrote: How do I build AP kog and what is the skill order?
From memory, so it might be wrong and there might be more optimal builds, but Nyjacky is the only super competent AP Kog I've seen in scrims and stuff he goes Tear -> Deathcap -> Rylais -> Void staff -> BV -> AA. Throw in Sorc shoes somewhere in there.
Pretty much Dcap and Rylais are the most core though 'cuz Dcap gives you the most raw damage and Rylais is imba on him because if you catch someone with a single R they will die to you.
boots +3, tear or cata, tear or cata (the one you didn't get the 1st time), Rod of Ages, Archangels, Dcap, Void, Rylai's/Wota/2nd Arch
eweqer R>E>W=Q Sometimes you'll have only 1 point in q til late in the game, sometimes you'll max it second. Depends on if you're required to use it often or you can keep a safe distance with maxing W 2nd.
It's possible to go aggressive in lane if you know you can get lots of W autos in lane, but for the most part kog needs to play safe and abuse the range.
boots +3, tear or cata, tear or cata (the one you didn't get the 1st time), Rod of Ages, Archangels, Dcap, Void, Rylai's/Wota/2nd Arch
eweqer R>E>W=Q Sometimes you'll have only 1 point in q til late in the game, sometimes you'll max it second. Depends on if you're required to use it often or you can keep a safe distance with maxing W 2nd.
It's possible to go aggressive in lane if you know you can get lots of W autos in lane, but for the most part kog needs to play safe and abuse the range.
Archangel's shouldn't be gotten until after Death Cap and Void Staff. I do agree that Rod of Ages is the right way to go unless you can somehow always have blue buff, because otherwise with only Tear you'll still have some mana problems while spamming your ultimate.
So apparently tri-force works really well with kog'maw. Been playing a few games and so far, i can only see sense in rushing a tri-force, then building whatever you need past it, let it be defensive, offensive or sustain. Unlike the semi-standard PD -> IE or IE -> PD build, this build focuses heavily on abusing your superior range in the later stages of the laning phase, all throughout the game.
23/0/7 masteries, picking up mpen, arpen, deadliness+crit, lifesteal and skipping sunder. In utlity grab imp flash, expanded mind and meditation.
Flash/heal seems so common these days, i would consider flash/cleanse if you're against a stun-heavy CC-team, but i find that to be rare, especially with all the suppressions in the game, in which case you should get QSS after tri-force.
Runes:
2 armor quints, 1 AD quint AD marks 5 armor seals, 4 scaling mp5 seals 6 flat mres glyphs, 3 scaling mp5 seals.
WQWE, R > W > Q > E
I feel like kog'maw shouldn't be lvl'ing E, with the same reasoning why MF doesn't lvl her E. It doesn't make up for a good chasing ability, you should be fairly safe if you're careful with your positoning (+you got flash and heal and a babysitter, everything's cool). Your Q gets its range enhanced with W, so you can safely use it in fights.
Whenever i play kog i like to be able to harass post-6, where your ulti will play a big part in lane dominance in terms of "winning" the brushes in your lane. The vision, range and damage makes you very scary and very pokey. With this rune setup i get 29 armor at lvl 1 along with 39 mres, which i feel kog'maw needs, especially in bot lane where a great balance of mres and armor will help you safely into your sweet-spot (post-6).
Boots+3 pots -> 2 dblade+vamp scepter (zerkers here or after tri-force, your choice) -> Phage -> Sheen -> Triforce
So far this has been my opening, phage first because the slow is crazy, when you activate W you're able to really punish bad positioning both in lane but also in fights. Also the hp helps you alot. When you get a fully tri-force, you will be a serious threat if you utilize his range.
You have alot of choices for your next item. Generally anything in this list, is considered viable:
Regarding AP Kog'Maw, I might just suck, but grabbing Rylai's makes my long-range Rs a lot easier to hit. I'm almost to the point of rushing it after Tear. Does anyone else build Rylai's, and when do they fit it into the build?
AP kog can be really scary if he gets an advantage because the range on R is so broken that you can zone/kill your opponent forever if you're ahead. of course it's all about landing your ults.
AP kog is seriously the most retardedly op shit, holy fuck. as soon as it hits the 30 minute mark without getting a massive lead, you already lost because he just chunks your whole team for a million damage from across the map, what the hell
On April 17 2012 06:02 Owned Noob wrote: AP kog is seriously the most retardedly op shit, holy fuck. as soon as it hits the 30 minute mark without getting a massive lead, you already lost because he just chunks your whole team for a million damage from across the map, what the hell
While ap kog is really strong and annoying in his poke he really only works when pared with champions that have really good disengages like janna,trundle,etc.If you don't pick a team accordingly to ap kogs needs the other team is going to buy 1-2 shurelyas,charge in and blow you up.Only idiots will sit back and stay passive while getting chunked by R under the tower.You have to be able to push people away from kog and make their life miserable so they don't have any other choice but to sit under the tower and eat Rs. It's a world of difference from a ad kog actually.As Clg showed in IPL the best way to play ap kog is to just not give a shit about objectives(except for blue buff which is the most important objective on the map for ap kog) and never ever ever fight.When they charge you use janna ult,tornado or something similar and reset the poke war.I'm rambling a bit now but my point is that ap kog is only really dangerous if your team understands what they need to do in order for you to do what you do best.So basically I would say that in solo Q ap kog is mediocre at best to play with because solo q will be solo q.
In solo q more then half are morons. In solo q ad will do the job much more efficiently a you can solo lane or get feed easier because solo q people usually understand that ooh he hits people good give him kills. Again he his team dependant still most the time but solo q anything can happen lol I've done some crazy things as kog on solo q but who hasn't.
just rush boots-> phantomdance-> infinity edge -> madreds blood -> bloodthirster then your choice of sitiautional items or luxury items max w>q>r>e prio
On April 17 2012 11:44 MugenXBanksy wrote: just rush boots-> phantomdance-> infinity edge -> madreds blood -> bloodthirster then your choice of sitiautional items or luxury items max w>q>r>e prio
zzzzz
Standard Kog build is basically standard AD carry build: Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades. Then BF sword+Vamp scepter. Then IE->Zeal/PD->BT for more damage OR LW if they've started to stack a lot of armor. To finish get BT/LW, whichever you didn't get and/or a defensive item, usually QSS or GA. Banshee's can be good in some scenarios and some players have started to build Frozen Mallet on AD carries for more tank and utility. You generally only want 1 defensive item; maybe 2 in extreme situations.
You can also do a more early-mid game dominating build. Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades, Then Wriggles ->Zeal. From there transition to IE or finish your PD. After that get whatever you didn't get earlier. Then transition to standard AD carry stuff.
Madreds Bloodrazor is a bad item on AD carries in 90% of games. The vast majority of the times IE/BT/LW/PD will increase your dps far far more than Bloodrazor.
Skillbuild on Kog is R>W>Q>E, but you want 1 in everything by lvl 4. It's usually something like WEWQ or WEQW to start.
On April 17 2012 11:44 MugenXBanksy wrote: just rush boots-> phantomdance-> infinity edge -> madreds blood -> bloodthirster then your choice of sitiautional items or luxury items max w>q>r>e prio
zzzzz
Standard Kog build is basically standard AD carry build: Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades. Then BF sword+Vamp scepter. Then IE->Zeal/PD->BT for more damage OR LW if they've started to stack a lot of armor. To finish get BT/LW, whichever you didn't get and/or a defensive item, usually QSS or GA. Banshee's can be good in some scenarios and some players have started to build Frozen Mallet on AD carries for more tank and utility. You generally only want 1 defensive item; maybe 2 in extreme situations.
You can also do a more early-mid game dominating build. Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades, Then Wriggles ->Zeal. From there transition to IE or finish your PD. After that get whatever you didn't get earlier. Then transition to standard AD carry stuff.
Madreds Bloodrazor is a bad item on AD carries in 90% of games. The vast majority of the times IE/BT/LW/PD will increase your dps far far more than Bloodrazor.
Skillbuild on Kog is R>W>Q>E, but you want 1 in everything by lvl 4. It's usually something like WEWQ or WEQW to start.
I've seen quite a few Kogs go PD before BF and defiantly before IE. I have certainly never seen Madreds (responding to your nested).
On March 07 2012 11:13 HeroHenry wrote: How do I build AP kog and what is the skill order?
From memory, so it might be wrong and there might be more optimal builds, but Nyjacky is the only super competent AP Kog I've seen in scrims and stuff he goes Tear -> Deathcap -> Rylais -> Void staff -> BV -> AA. Throw in Sorc shoes somewhere in there.
Pretty much Dcap and Rylais are the most core though 'cuz Dcap gives you the most raw damage and Rylais is imba on him because if you catch someone with a single R they will die to you.
Bigfatjiji on CLG has played a lot of AP Kog in poke comps. The most prominent game I recall is IPL4 game 2 in their second run against dignitas.
On April 17 2012 11:44 MugenXBanksy wrote: just rush boots-> phantomdance-> infinity edge -> madreds blood -> bloodthirster then your choice of sitiautional items or luxury items max w>q>r>e prio
zzzzz
Standard Kog build is basically standard AD carry build: Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades. Then BF sword+Vamp scepter. Then IE->Zeal/PD->BT for more damage OR LW if they've started to stack a lot of armor. To finish get BT/LW, whichever you didn't get and/or a defensive item, usually QSS or GA. Banshee's can be good in some scenarios and some players have started to build Frozen Mallet on AD carries for more tank and utility. You generally only want 1 defensive item; maybe 2 in extreme situations.
You can also do a more early-mid game dominating build. Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades, Then Wriggles ->Zeal. From there transition to IE or finish your PD. After that get whatever you didn't get earlier. Then transition to standard AD carry stuff.
Madreds Bloodrazor is a bad item on AD carries in 90% of games. The vast majority of the times IE/BT/LW/PD will increase your dps far far more than Bloodrazor.
Skillbuild on Kog is R>W>Q>E, but you want 1 in everything by lvl 4. It's usually something like WEWQ or WEQW to start.
I've seen quite a few Kogs go PD before BF and defiantly before IE. I have certainly never seen Madreds (responding to your nested).
So is IE > PD for Kog as well?
I believe yellowpete goes wriggles first into PD into damage items on kog.
On April 17 2012 11:44 MugenXBanksy wrote: just rush boots-> phantomdance-> infinity edge -> madreds blood -> bloodthirster then your choice of sitiautional items or luxury items max w>q>r>e prio
zzzzz
Standard Kog build is basically standard AD carry build: Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades. Then BF sword+Vamp scepter. Then IE->Zeal/PD->BT for more damage OR LW if they've started to stack a lot of armor. To finish get BT/LW, whichever you didn't get and/or a defensive item, usually QSS or GA. Banshee's can be good in some scenarios and some players have started to build Frozen Mallet on AD carries for more tank and utility. You generally only want 1 defensive item; maybe 2 in extreme situations.
You can also do a more early-mid game dominating build. Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades, Then Wriggles ->Zeal. From there transition to IE or finish your PD. After that get whatever you didn't get earlier. Then transition to standard AD carry stuff.
Madreds Bloodrazor is a bad item on AD carries in 90% of games. The vast majority of the times IE/BT/LW/PD will increase your dps far far more than Bloodrazor.
Skillbuild on Kog is R>W>Q>E, but you want 1 in everything by lvl 4. It's usually something like WEWQ or WEQW to start.
I've seen quite a few Kogs go PD before BF and defiantly before IE. I have certainly never seen Madreds (responding to your nested).
So is IE > PD for Kog as well?
It really depends. Getting IE before PD is more oriented towards teamfights and the lategame. Kog can afford to go Zeal/PD before BF items because he does significant damage at almost all stages of the game due to his W dealing % damage.
I know a lot of pros have build Kog with Dblade spam and wriggles into Zeal/PD rush because of the laning power and dragon control it offers. If you do that you absolutely have to make it count though because getting Wriggles/lots of extra Dblades means that you will be set 1.6k~2k gold behind the enemy AD.
2 dblades into pd is pretty fucking strong. it actually gives me a lot of kiting power and the crits with W = a lot of damage. i think it's stronger than going IE first mostly because PD is such a good item on kog
On April 17 2012 11:44 MugenXBanksy wrote: just rush boots-> phantomdance-> infinity edge -> madreds blood -> bloodthirster then your choice of sitiautional items or luxury items max w>q>r>e prio
zzzzz
Standard Kog build is basically standard AD carry build: Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades. Then BF sword+Vamp scepter. Then IE->Zeal/PD->BT for more damage OR LW if they've started to stack a lot of armor. To finish get BT/LW, whichever you didn't get and/or a defensive item, usually QSS or GA. Banshee's can be good in some scenarios and some players have started to build Frozen Mallet on AD carries for more tank and utility. You generally only want 1 defensive item; maybe 2 in extreme situations.
You can also do a more early-mid game dominating build. Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades, Then Wriggles ->Zeal. From there transition to IE or finish your PD. After that get whatever you didn't get earlier. Then transition to standard AD carry stuff.
Madreds Bloodrazor is a bad item on AD carries in 90% of games. The vast majority of the times IE/BT/LW/PD will increase your dps far far more than Bloodrazor.
Skillbuild on Kog is R>W>Q>E, but you want 1 in everything by lvl 4. It's usually something like WEWQ or WEQW to start.
I've seen quite a few Kogs go PD before BF and defiantly before IE. I have certainly never seen Madreds (responding to your nested).
So is IE > PD for Kog as well?
I know a lot of pros have build Kog with Dblade spam and wriggles into Zeal/PD rush because of the laning power and dragon control it offers. If you do that you absolutely have to make it count though because getting Wriggles/lots of extra Dblades means that you will be set 1.6k~2k gold behind the enemy AD.
Which is why I don't like the combination of dblade spam and wriggles. I see people do this and they end up doing no damage in teamfights while the other AD finished their IE and is killing crap. Even worse is when they do it and then build PD first afterwards...
On April 17 2012 15:23 wussleeQ wrote: 2 dblades into pd is pretty fucking strong. it actually gives me a lot of kiting power and the crits with W = a lot of damage. i think it's stronger than going IE first mostly because PD is such a good item on kog
The crits do not benefit from the presence of W and with no major AD item are not really significant.
PD before your major AD item is a similar sacrifice in terms of DPS except it gives you positioning power rather than raw survivability. That's basically it. It's damage is pretty pathetic next to a lone BC/BT/IE even on Kog Maw but unlike wriggles/dblades combo you'll be exactly where you left off as soon as you finish your AD item since going PD/X is the same gold as X/PD. Once you get PD + BF sword you're losing a lot less potential DPS, before that you can be doing 25% less.
Also build to match your team. PD first is a lot stronger with Lulu and sorta Janna (lulu doesn't suffer from shield breaks, Janna does). If you have Nunu on your team you really should be getting AD first since you've got movespeed + attack speed anyway.
Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
If you don't have abilities that scale off of AD and build some Doran Blades for laning anyway PD is minimally worse for dps than a BF sword based start. And thats without having an ability that purely scales of AS like Kog. Plus between the range during active W and the movement speed you get from a PD you can put serious hurt on your opponent if laning phase persists, while working for that fast IE won't get you anything until you complete it and then you still need to hit an early crit. That said don't go for a Wriggles in solo qeue, its only a useful idea if you have a comp build arround early Baron control in 5v5 arranged imho.
Wait what. You can be a complete dick in lane post-6 (and even more so post-11). I mean kills shouldn't be your priority, but by all means you can definitely harass and even zone/force b's.
(From last page) I might just suck, but grabbing Rylai's makes my long-range Rs a lot easier to hit. I'm almost to the point of rushing it after Tear. Does anyone else build Rylai's, and when do they fit it into the build?
On April 17 2012 22:34 ManyCookies wrote: Wait what. You can be a complete dick in lane post-6 (and even more so post-11). I mean kills shouldn't be your priority, but by all means you can definitely harass and even zone/force b's.
(From last page) I might just suck, but grabbing Rylai's makes my long-range Rs a lot easier to hit. I'm almost to the point of rushing it after Tear. Does anyone else build Rylai's, and when do they fit it into the build?
I have to see how far I can push it when I first try champs, sure you can harass. I was vs Ahri first game, and clearly I was doing it wrong.
On April 17 2012 21:17 JackDino wrote: Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
Just get a tri-force instead. Almost the same mobility+you deal damage. Really got upload some replays, it's so stupidly good.
Triforce has much worse synergy for your late game damage. And typically thats what you should mostly be concerned about as the AD carry: scaling into the late game. So unless you have a definite plan to get a large advantage at 5k gold into the game and winning it based on that you should stick to the late game beast combo of PD+IE+LW.
On April 17 2012 21:17 JackDino wrote: Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
Just get a tri-force instead. Almost the same mobility+you deal damage. Really got upload some replays, it's so stupidly good.
Tri-force is so expensive for such little gains. I'd Rather have the PD + $1225 which is almost a BF, could get you a pickaxe, etc.
On April 17 2012 23:11 Nafaltar wrote: Triforce has much worse synergy for your late game damage. And typically thats what you should mostly be concerned about as the AD carry: scaling into the late game. So unless you have a definite plan to get a large advantage at 5k gold into the game and winning it based on that you should stick to the late game beast combo of PD+IE+LW.
So tri-force is worse than a straight PD rush? I just dont like PD i guess, much better off with Tri+IE+LW or Tri+BT+LW or whatever. Phage and sheen proc OP
On April 17 2012 11:44 MugenXBanksy wrote: just rush boots-> phantomdance-> infinity edge -> madreds blood -> bloodthirster then your choice of sitiautional items or luxury items max w>q>r>e prio
zzzzz
Standard Kog build is basically standard AD carry build: Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades. Then BF sword+Vamp scepter. Then IE->Zeal/PD->BT for more damage OR LW if they've started to stack a lot of armor. To finish get BT/LW, whichever you didn't get and/or a defensive item, usually QSS or GA. Banshee's can be good in some scenarios and some players have started to build Frozen Mallet on AD carries for more tank and utility. You generally only want 1 defensive item; maybe 2 in extreme situations.
You can also do a more early-mid game dominating build. Dblade or Boots 3 start. Then get 1-2 more Dblades, Then Wriggles ->Zeal. From there transition to IE or finish your PD. After that get whatever you didn't get earlier. Then transition to standard AD carry stuff.
Madreds Bloodrazor is a bad item on AD carries in 90% of games. The vast majority of the times IE/BT/LW/PD will increase your dps far far more than Bloodrazor.
Skillbuild on Kog is R>W>Q>E, but you want 1 in everything by lvl 4. It's usually something like WEWQ or WEQW to start.
I've seen quite a few Kogs go PD before BF and defiantly before IE. I have certainly never seen Madreds (responding to your nested).
So is IE > PD for Kog as well?
I know a lot of pros have build Kog with Dblade spam and wriggles into Zeal/PD rush because of the laning power and dragon control it offers. If you do that you absolutely have to make it count though because getting Wriggles/lots of extra Dblades means that you will be set 1.6k~2k gold behind the enemy AD.
Which is why I don't like the combination of dblade spam and wriggles. I see people do this and they end up doing no damage in teamfights while the other AD finished their IE and is killing crap. Even worse is when they do it and then build PD first afterwards...
On April 17 2012 15:23 wussleeQ wrote: 2 dblades into pd is pretty fucking strong. it actually gives me a lot of kiting power and the crits with W = a lot of damage. i think it's stronger than going IE first mostly because PD is such a good item on kog
The crits do not benefit from the presence of W and with no major AD item are not really significant.
PD before your major AD item is a similar sacrifice in terms of DPS except it gives you positioning power rather than raw survivability. That's basically it. It's damage is pretty pathetic next to a lone BC/BT/IE even on Kog Maw but unlike wriggles/dblades combo you'll be exactly where you left off as soon as you finish your AD item since going PD/X is the same gold as X/PD. Once you get PD + BF sword you're losing a lot less potential DPS, before that you can be doing 25% less.
Also build to match your team. PD first is a lot stronger with Lulu and sorta Janna (lulu doesn't suffer from shield breaks, Janna does). If you have Nunu on your team you really should be getting AD first since you've got movespeed + attack speed anyway.
Generally you want to go EITHER Doran's or Wriggles. It's actually rather easy to decide which to go too.
If you're in a lane that has high kill potential(You're vs a Graves/Sona or Graves/Taric or Tristana/Taric), it's better to go with Dorans because it gives you more HP thus you have more survivability versus the burst.
If it's a lane that's going to be long & dragged out with very little action between the players, then Wriggles is the better option because it gives you free wards so there won't be much, if any, jungle intervention, easier last hits, and also the ability to control your lane better.
On April 17 2012 15:23 wussleeQ wrote: 2 dblades into pd is pretty fucking strong. it actually gives me a lot of kiting power and the crits with W = a lot of damage. i think it's stronger than going IE first mostly because PD is such a good item on kog
Generally I suggest to all players Sub-1400 Elo to go Boots->3x Dorans->PD->I.E.
I know this build may sound bad because it's such a huge investment in Dorans, but you have to understand that Sub-1400 players generally have horrific situational awareness in when they should run or engage and the PD's give you that survivability. I only suggest wriggles on Caitlyn because of her extreme range and maneuverability.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in Sub -1800ish Elo pretty much the entire game is decided by the 20-30 minute mark. By then you'll have your Dorans/PD so you'll be a powerhouse during teamfights. Building for 35+ minutes isn't going to win you as many games as trying to cheese early game builds would.
Start Boots + 3 or Dorans depending on your support. Get 2 (3 at most) dorans > Zeal > Berserkers > PD > IE
Trust me, once you get your PD you can boss around your lane so much. With your W active you have so much range. You've got tons of attack speed with your Q passive plus the PD that you get so many extra shots from your W. You can chase the champions easy and you can usually always grab a kill if they get too close and you are able to E them to slow them down.
Remember, E at them, Press W, Auto > Auto > R > Auto > Auto > R >Auto > Auto > R.
Kog + Tier 2 boots + PD, you can't really outrun him either if he starts doing that combo on you, especially if he leads his R behind you so if you keep running straight back you'll get hit by his ult. If you turn to the side he'll be able to hit you with more autos.
Once he gets a BF sword, followed by the IE, Good luck....
So, there's a lot more AP Kog'maw being played (or maybe it's due to Froggen/Jiji playing a lot of him lately) - what's the current consensus on runes/masteries/builds/etc? Is he still a mid pick where you need a specific comp, or will he slot into a wider range of teams these days?
I think buildwise it's something like R>W>E>Q. I could be wrong tho. For items Tear, Rylais, Dcap are non-negotiable. RoA can be a good pickup sometimes. Void staff for late game. Either cdr or sorc boots.
He's mid pick with a relatively weak laning phase, but Kog wrecks after laning breaks down due to his retarded poke.
DCap completely negotiable lol. Tear/Cata/Roa farmfest, rylai archangel void. Usually gives you more of what you need than dcap since you do consistent sustained damage anyways the burst isn't that important, rather have more mana and hp to live.
Ofc Dcap good in some situations but it's definitely not set in stone like you suggest...
On May 27 2012 18:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: R > E > W > Q
DCap completely negotiable lol. Tear/Cata/Roa farmfest, rylai archangel void. Usually gives you more of what you need than dcap since you do consistent sustained damage anyways the burst isn't that important, rather have more mana and hp to live.
Ofc Dcap good in some situations but it's definitely not set in stone like you suggest...
Well dcap is definitely something you should be aiming for in a final build. maybe not as a second or third item, but fourth item and on there's no reason to not get it. as for RoA, i've seen many AP kogs, froggen included, just skip it. With Rylais/Tear you have sufficient hp/mana. RoA is a good item for AP kog tho.
On April 17 2012 21:17 JackDino wrote: Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
Just get a tri-force instead. Almost the same mobility+you deal damage. Really got upload some replays, it's so stupidly good.
Tri-force is so expensive for such little gains. I'd Rather have the PD + $1225 which is almost a BF, could get you a pickaxe, etc.
Triforce is efficient. With its stats AND its goodies. In fact its more efficient than PD if you use all its stats(like kog does)
On April 17 2012 21:17 JackDino wrote: Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
Just get a tri-force instead. Almost the same mobility+you deal damage. Really got upload some replays, it's so stupidly good.
Tri-force is so expensive for such little gains. I'd Rather have the PD + $1225 which is almost a BF, could get you a pickaxe, etc.
Triforce is efficient. With its stats AND its goodies. In fact its more efficient than PD if you use all its stats(like kog does)
Unless you're *really* on the ball with getting every triforce proc without interrupting any auto attack Triforce is just as gold efficient for DPS as a PD. If you're not proccing at all (for instance you're OOM) you're really far behind.
PD + BFS is just 400 more gold and does a lot more damage than Triforce. If your team needs more damage because they're behind or just lack DPS threats TF just isn't a good option on any AD, even Corki.
On May 28 2012 06:17 phyvo wrote: The major point is that stacking AAs is never an option on anybody because the instant a mobility bruiser dives you you're dead
On April 17 2012 21:17 JackDino wrote: Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
Just get a tri-force instead. Almost the same mobility+you deal damage. Really got upload some replays, it's so stupidly good.
Tri-force is so expensive for such little gains. I'd Rather have the PD + $1225 which is almost a BF, could get you a pickaxe, etc.
Triforce is efficient. With its stats AND its goodies. In fact its more efficient than PD if you use all its stats(like kog does)
Unless you're *really* on the ball with getting every triforce proc without interrupting any auto attack Triforce is just as gold efficient for DPS as a PD. If you're not proccing at all (for instance you're OOM) you're really far behind.
PD + BFS is just 400 more gold and does a lot more damage than Triforce. If your team needs more damage because they're behind or just lack DPS threats TF just isn't a good option on any AD, even Corki.
pd is a specialist item. it doesnt add nearly as much dps by itself, it needs the other carry items to become good. triforce is universalist, it is a one stop shop for doing tons of damage. by itself, it does more damage than any item, and offers more utility. its not just a meme, it is the truth. but its one shop stop makes it more of a metagolem part too. but no it isnt bad, pros use it often on corkster and ez.
On May 28 2012 06:17 phyvo wrote: The major point is that stacking AAs is never an option on anybody because the instant a mobility bruiser dives you you're dead
On May 27 2012 19:44 brolaf wrote:
On April 17 2012 23:50 cLutZ wrote:
On April 17 2012 22:57 Sponkz wrote:
On April 17 2012 21:17 JackDino wrote: Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
Just get a tri-force instead. Almost the same mobility+you deal damage. Really got upload some replays, it's so stupidly good.
Tri-force is so expensive for such little gains. I'd Rather have the PD + $1225 which is almost a BF, could get you a pickaxe, etc.
Triforce is efficient. With its stats AND its goodies. In fact its more efficient than PD if you use all its stats(like kog does)
Unless you're *really* on the ball with getting every triforce proc without interrupting any auto attack Triforce is just as gold efficient for DPS as a PD. If you're not proccing at all (for instance you're OOM) you're really far behind.
PD + BFS is just 400 more gold and does a lot more damage than Triforce. If your team needs more damage because they're behind or just lack DPS threats TF just isn't a good option on any AD, even Corki.
pd is a specialist item. it doesnt add nearly as much dps by itself, it needs the other carry items to become good.
I initially thought this was true until people last page made me take another look at my DPS spreadsheet. With just standard AD marks/quints PD + BFS has the same DPS/gold as IE, except you're getting your mobility/positioning ability much earlier.
triforce is universalist, it is a one stop shop for doing tons of damage. by itself, it does more damage than any item,
This is completely untrue. Even if you procced PERFECTLY (that is every 2s without interrupting auto attacks with spells) IE and PD+BFS would do more damage and be more gold efficient. If you're actually human the gap widens significantly. If it weren't for the proc TF's damage would be complete garbage, which means that if you're low on mana or have high ult stacks you are hamstrung.
and offers more utility. its not just a meme, it is the truth. but its one shop stop makes it more of a metagolem part too
.
You get utility (250 HP/MP and phage proc) at the price of your DPS. It's not free. If your team needs damage you're only doing them a disservice by buying TF. If anyone should be buying DPS it's you, Kog Maw, a ranged carry with some of the highest range and some of the best DPS potential the game.
but no it isnt bad, pros use it often on corkster and ez.
I didn't say it was bad. I said it was stupid to buy when you're behind or when your team needs damage. I've heard from pros that you shouldn't buy TF under those circumstances even on Corki. EZ is a weird case and I haven't heard as much about him but in terms of his relationship to TF Kog is a lot more like Corki than he is like EZ.
Again, you can have your maths show this or that(evidently, it also shows that TF is more efficient than PD gold wise, and IE is more efficient than any dmg item other than BT.. how you value its stats is a different matter). But when i watch pro games, PD+bf isnt some wonder combo. Ive never seen it done. Yet 2xdoran-IE-zeal is standard pro build. same with TF first on 'ol cork
Simply because IE first scales better than everything else, and PD only makes sense if you can shooting while not moving, or else you lose some of the AS value. With IE, you attack less often, but every attack hits for more, and crits even more. "Punctual" attacks deal more damage, and they are more likely than a gatling gun mode with everybody ignoring you all fight long.
Tri-force is just a better single-buy than PD or IE (not combined just stand-alone) which makes it a better purchase in solo queue, simply because you need utility cause you cannot rely on your team building heavily around you. Sure in arranged where your team focuses on having a kog'maw you can go PD+IE, but in solo Q Tri-force is just overall a better item choice, because it will allow you to be more of a threat. Also you cannot neglect that for kog'maws midgame tri-force makes his dps increase rather hard, because of his ability to sheen-proc with his W and R making him an amusing threat.
On May 27 2012 18:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: R > E > W > Q
DCap completely negotiable lol. Tear/Cata/Roa farmfest, rylai archangel void. Usually gives you more of what you need than dcap since you do consistent sustained damage anyways the burst isn't that important, rather have more mana and hp to live.
Ofc Dcap good in some situations but it's definitely not set in stone like you suggest...
Well dcap is definitely something you should be aiming for in a final build. maybe not as a second or third item, but fourth item and on there's no reason to not get it. as for RoA, i've seen many AP kogs, froggen included, just skip it. With Rylais/Tear you have sufficient hp/mana. RoA is a good item for AP kog tho.
On May 28 2012 20:05 brolaf wrote: Again, you can have your maths show this or that(evidently, it also shows that TF is more efficient than PD gold wise, and IE is more efficient than any dmg item other than BT.. how you value its stats is a different matter).
Your second statement is pretty close to my point. It DOES NOT MATTER how stat efficient an item is if the stats it gives you are worthless (case in point Nashor's Tooth). Mathing out EHP and DPS values per item gives you a far more accurate assessment as to how valuable an item is since ranged carries don't buy many items with complicated passives or actives.
But when i watch pro games, PD+bf isnt some wonder combo. Ive never seen it done. Yet 2xdoran-IE-zeal is standard pro build. same with TF first on 'ol cork
You haven't been watching that many pro games if you've never seen PD rush Kog Maw builds. They've been pretty common for Kog Maw in past tournaments. Moreover, PD + BFS gives the same DPS per gold spent as a lone IE. You don't actually give up much DPS for going PD + BFS rather than IE.
It's not a wonder combo. It's not going to revolutionize your game. But for PD both the math (actual DPS numbers) and the precedent (tourney games) are stronger than TF's (which does significantly less DPS and has not been built on Kog in tourney games except possibly the more recent ones I've missed).
On May 28 2012 20:56 Alaric wrote: Simply because IE first scales better than everything else, and PD only makes sense if you can shooting while not moving, or else you lose some of the AS value. With IE, you attack less often, but every attack hits for more, and crits even more. "Punctual" attacks deal more damage, and they are more likely than a gatling gun mode with everybody ignoring you all fight long.
But with faster auto attacks your animation is shorter and with PD your movespeed is faster. If targets are running away you're also better at chasing.
Tri-force's stats aren't useless for kog'maw, actually he enjoys it all. The only problem with your statements phyvo, is that you're comparing tourney level play to actual solo queue play where imo tri-force has a far better place for kog'maw simply because of how much it improves your mid-game and the fact (as i stated in my post above) that nobody wants to build their team around kog'maw in solo queue.
On May 28 2012 20:05 brolaf wrote: Again, you can have your maths show this or that(evidently, it also shows that TF is more efficient than PD gold wise, and IE is more efficient than any dmg item other than BT.. how you value its stats is a different matter).
Your second statement is pretty close to my point. It DOES NOT MATTER how stat efficient an item is if the stats it gives you are worthless (case in point Nashor's Tooth). Mathing out EHP and DPS values per item gives you a far more accurate assessment as to how valuable an item is since ranged carries don't buy many items with complicated passives or actives.
But when i watch pro games, PD+bf isnt some wonder combo. Ive never seen it done. Yet 2xdoran-IE-zeal is standard pro build. same with TF first on 'ol cork
You haven't been watching that many pro games if you've never seen PD rush Kog Maw builds. They've been pretty common for Kog Maw in past tournaments. Moreover, PD + BFS gives the same DPS per gold spent as a lone IE. You don't actually give up much DPS for going PD + BFS rather than IE.
It's not a wonder combo. It's not going to revolutionize your game. But for PD both the math (actual DPS numbers) and the precedent (tourney games) are stronger than TF's (which does significantly less DPS and has not been built on Kog in tourney games except possibly the more recent ones I've missed).
On May 28 2012 20:56 Alaric wrote: Simply because IE first scales better than everything else, and PD only makes sense if you can shooting while not moving, or else you lose some of the AS value. With IE, you attack less often, but every attack hits for more, and crits even more. "Punctual" attacks deal more damage, and they are more likely than a gatling gun mode with everybody ignoring you all fight long.
But with faster auto attacks your animation is shorter and with PD your movespeed is faster. If targets are running away you're also better at chasing.
On May 30 2012 00:01 Seuss wrote: You guys remind me of a friend who tried to tell me that Madred's Bloodrazor was good on Akali.
Except tri-force isn't bad on Kog'maw. I don't know why the OP is neglecting the usefulness of tri-force simply because he's used to a play-style that involves pressing your W, right-clicking and killing. Tri-force IS good on kog'maw, you build it because you want a good mid-game rather than a good late game. Tri-force involves using ALL of his spells rather than focusing on enhancing his W for the pure purpose of being a tank-killer late game.
Also this isn't about which item is the most cost-effective item for kog'maw this is solely based around where you want your focus to be. It's like comparing AD nida to AP nida and then saying deathcap is bad on ad nida, when it's two completely different subjects.
The spreadsheet assumes perfect proc execution for Trinity Force and includes a subsheet where the player only attacks once every two seconds, perfectly in line with Trinity Force procs. You'll note that even in the extreme ideal case Trinity Force only barely beats IE's damage. In the reverse case Trinity Force is absolutely crushed.
Trinity Force is not a good item on Kog'maw. It's not worth crippling your late-game for equivalent-at-best mid-game damage and mediocre utility.
I'm not saying PD+IE is a bad path. I never said it. I'm only arguing for the fact that i actually tried tri-force kog for a handful of games with succes, mainly noticing how much my mid-game increased and seeing as i personally never reach late game in more than 20-30% of my games i think it's fairly well to notice how much of an influence the whole mid-game meta has become. Oh well.
Also that spreadsheet doesn't make any sense. You're comparing Tri-force which has a cost of roughly 4000 to PD+BF which cost roughly 500 more.
Basicly it all comes down to how you manevour around. You CANNOT expect a team so solely be build around you, except in arranged where this is a must. There's 2 sole reasons for the PD+IE path in tourney play:
1. The ability for you to farm is higher, the chances of getting to late game is relatively high. 2. Your team picks champions, with the mind-set of having you as their primary damage dealer in late-game (because of your scaling).
So your job as kog'maw is to press your W and just hit every single target in a safe position, while your team is trying to help you accomplish your goal (assuming late game team fighting, with even scores etc.)
This is NOT possible to achieve in solo queue. I got over 700 games in solo queue, currently sneaking around the 1700 mark and if there's one thing i've learned, it's that peeling simply isn't an option at lower level play unless you choose to do it, or you ask your team to do it.
The main reason you wanna go for the tri-force path is the fact that higher health helps you in lane, the phage proc is really keen because you will become a poking monster. W'ing, aa -> phage proc and you can start bashing out a few R's for excellent trades that honestly no other carry can really compete with. The sheen procs of your W and your R, making you even more threating as you now have some burst, along side the fact that your superior range and phage procs+E will make it hard for many champions to ever really get close simply because you have kite potential. You're playing like a pussy, but it actually works. The mindset of how you utilize your spells differs, simply because you want to be as safe as possible without having to heavily relying on your team.
On May 30 2012 06:50 Sponkz wrote: I'm not saying PD+IE is a bad path. I never said it. I'm only arguing for the fact that i actually tried tri-force kog for a handful of games with succes, mainly noticing how much my mid-game increased and seeing as i personally never reach late game in more than 20-30% of my games i think it's fairly well to notice how much of an influence the whole mid-game meta has become. Oh well.
Everyone knows what you're arguing and everyone has been telling you very gently that you're wrong. As the previous guy said you just cannot open yourself to the idea that you're wrong lol.
On May 30 2012 06:50 Sponkz wrote: I'm not saying PD+IE is a bad path. I never said it. I'm only arguing for the fact that i actually tried tri-force kog for a handful of games with succes, mainly noticing how much my mid-game increased and seeing as i personally never reach late game in more than 20-30% of my games i think it's fairly well to notice how much of an influence the whole mid-game meta has become. Oh well.
Everyone knows what you're arguing and everyone has been telling you very gently that you're wrong. As the previous guy said you just cannot open yourself to the idea that you're wrong lol.
Maybe you cannot open up to the idea, that i'm trying out different paths. Have any of you actually tried it?
On May 30 2012 06:50 Sponkz wrote: I'm not saying PD+IE is a bad path. I never said it. I'm only arguing for the fact that i actually tried tri-force kog for a handful of games with succes, mainly noticing how much my mid-game increased and seeing as i personally never reach late game in more than 20-30% of my games i think it's fairly well to notice how much of an influence the whole mid-game meta has become. Oh well.
Everyone knows what you're arguing and everyone has been telling you very gently that you're wrong. As the previous guy said you just cannot open yourself to the idea that you're wrong lol.
Maybe you cannot open up to the idea, that i'm trying out different paths. Have any of you actually tried it?
You're right, how did I not realize. TL is such a bunch of derps, no one has ever considered triforce before and now everyone is trying to argue with you that its bad? Shame on these people, every one of them. How dare they bring our their fancy numbers in the face of your overwhelming anecdotal evidence.
I honestly try and be as informative in my posts, especially in champion threads. All i've seen you do is "lol you wrong, you bad". Your fancy numbers aren't as accurate for this example anyways and really i'll just stop posting because all i get back is 3 lines how i'm wrong. The closest being the spreadsheet that compares a 4k gold investment to a 4,5k gold investment along with the fact that nobody actually broke down my posts and tried to argue with me. Like really, fuck you.
Also i don't have an issue of not being right, hell you can't be right everytime, but i do mind people just writing a short lined post where all i read is that i'm wrong, without arguing along the line some of the factors that i tried to elaborate on.
On May 30 2012 08:03 Sponkz wrote:The closest being the spreadsheet that compares a 4k gold investment to a 4,5k gold investment
Allow me to interrupt your martyrdom for a moment to point out the following:
There is another row in that spreadsheet comparing a 3830g item to your 4070g item.
The existence of a row comparing a 4495g item combination to your 4070g item does not invalidate or eliminate the existence of the 3830g row.
It is possible, despite the gold disparity between these items, to draw meaningful conclusions from this spreadsheet.
I did not mention the 4495g item combination in any of my comments following the spreadsheet, and specifically highlighted the 3830g item.
I also did not highlight the 240g disparity between the 3830g item and your 4070g item, even though this is significant.
The spreadsheet in question made numerous assumptions favorable to your item/idea, and even had an entire subsheet dedicated to the most absurdly impractical ideal scenario for your item.
My basic point here being, you have the unreasonable expectation that people will want to engage your points when you toss out other people's carefully crafted arguments over complete trivialities.
On May 28 2012 06:17 phyvo wrote: The major point is that stacking AAs is never an option on anybody because the instant a mobility bruiser dives you you're dead
On May 27 2012 19:44 brolaf wrote:
On April 17 2012 23:50 cLutZ wrote:
On April 17 2012 22:57 Sponkz wrote:
On April 17 2012 21:17 JackDino wrote: Thing with kog is, the mobility you get from pdancer is really good on him and W deals tons of damage by itself. So even if you dont go IE first, you'll still do tons of damage because of that W compared to other ADs.
Just get a tri-force instead. Almost the same mobility+you deal damage. Really got upload some replays, it's so stupidly good.
Tri-force is so expensive for such little gains. I'd Rather have the PD + $1225 which is almost a BF, could get you a pickaxe, etc.
Triforce is efficient. With its stats AND its goodies. In fact its more efficient than PD if you use all its stats(like kog does)
Unless you're *really* on the ball with getting every triforce proc without interrupting any auto attack Triforce is just as gold efficient for DPS as a PD. If you're not proccing at all (for instance you're OOM) you're really far behind.
PD + BFS is just 400 more gold and does a lot more damage than Triforce. If your team needs more damage because they're behind or just lack DPS threats TF just isn't a good option on any AD, even Corki.
pd is a specialist item. it doesnt add nearly as much dps by itself, it needs the other carry items to become good.
I initially thought this was true until people last page made me take another look at my DPS spreadsheet. With just standard AD marks/quints PD + BFS has the same DPS/gold as IE, except you're getting your mobility/positioning ability much earlier.
triforce is universalist, it is a one stop shop for doing tons of damage. by itself, it does more damage than any item,
This is completely untrue. Even if you procced PERFECTLY (that is every 2s without interrupting auto attacks with spells) IE and PD+BFS would do more damage and be more gold efficient. If you're actually human the gap widens significantly. If it weren't for the proc TF's damage would be complete garbage, which means that if you're low on mana or have high ult stacks you are hamstrung.
and offers more utility. its not just a meme, it is the truth. but its one shop stop makes it more of a metagolem part too
.
You get utility (250 HP/MP and phage proc) at the price of your DPS. It's not free. If your team needs damage you're only doing them a disservice by buying TF. If anyone should be buying DPS it's you, Kog Maw, a ranged carry with some of the highest range and some of the best DPS potential the game.
but no it isnt bad, pros use it often on corkster and ez.
I didn't say it was bad. I said it was stupid to buy when you're behind or when your team needs damage. I've heard from pros that you shouldn't buy TF under those circumstances even on Corki. EZ is a weird case and I haven't heard as much about him but in terms of his relationship to TF Kog is a lot more like Corki than he is like EZ.
On May 30 2012 08:03 Sponkz wrote:The closest being the spreadsheet that compares a 4k gold investment to a 4,5k gold investment
Allow me to interrupt your martyrdom for a moment to point out the following:
There is another row in that spreadsheet comparing a 3830g item to your 4070g item.
The existence of a row comparing a 4495g item combination to your 4070g item does not invalidate or eliminate the existence of the 3830g row.
It is possible, despite the gold disparity between these items, to draw meaningful conclusions from this spreadsheet.
I did not mention the 4495g item combination in any of my comments following the spreadsheet, and specifically highlighted the 3830g item.
I also did not highlight the 240g disparity between the 3830g item and your 4070g item, even though this is significant.
The spreadsheet in question made numerous assumptions favorable to your item/idea, and even had an entire subsheet dedicated to the most absurdly impractical ideal scenario for your item.
My basic point here being, you have the unreasonable expectation that people will want to engage your points when you toss out other people's carefully crafted arguments over complete trivialities.
If you look at phyvo's post he's highlighting the fact that PD+BFS is an actually better purchase than a straight up IE, which made me compare it.
Also i thought this was a constructive discussion forum where you can try and discuss reasonable matters (i.e not ad zilean, tank ashe, hotshotggs penis etc.) and then have people reply arguing why they agree/disagree with one another. Although i think i stated enough times why i like the idea for solo Q, it doesn't suit your taste i guess.
On May 30 2012 08:03 Sponkz wrote:The closest being the spreadsheet that compares a 4k gold investment to a 4,5k gold investment
Allow me to interrupt your martyrdom for a moment to point out the following:
There is another row in that spreadsheet comparing a 3830g item to your 4070g item.
The existence of a row comparing a 4495g item combination to your 4070g item does not invalidate or eliminate the existence of the 3830g row.
It is possible, despite the gold disparity between these items, to draw meaningful conclusions from this spreadsheet.
I did not mention the 4495g item combination in any of my comments following the spreadsheet, and specifically highlighted the 3830g item.
I also did not highlight the 240g disparity between the 3830g item and your 4070g item, even though this is significant.
The spreadsheet in question made numerous assumptions favorable to your item/idea, and even had an entire subsheet dedicated to the most absurdly impractical ideal scenario for your item.
My basic point here being, you have the unreasonable expectation that people will want to engage your points when you toss out other people's carefully crafted arguments over complete trivialities.
If you look at phyvo's post he's highlighting the fact that PD+BFS is an actually better purchase than a straight up IE, which made me compare it.
Also i thought this was a constructive discussion forum where you can try and discuss reasonable matters (i.e not ad zilean, tank ashe, hotshotggs penis etc.) and then have people reply arguing why they agree/disagree with one another. Although i think i stated enough times why i like the idea for solo Q, it doesn't suit your taste i guess.
though,again, that is not so. if you look at the program simulation that the reddit guys made, i dont think thats the case. Maybe if you really have just IE with 0 speed PD is better instead, but the way pros build it with 'zerkers and following up with zeal its not bad
To be completely honest, after I started playing AP Kog I've started to think he's actually stronger AP than AD. But they're hitting his ult really hard so it probably won't be the same after the upcoming patch.
Hey guys, this week i played a game as sivir vs Kog'Maw, having soraka with me vs Nunu on the other side. Felt pretty boss about picking sivir, as they had a karthus as well, so my thoughts were that i would be able to harass like a boss and limitthe usefulness of nunu in the lane to giving an as steroid that couldn't be used because kog should never have the hp to engage me for more than one auto. Worked pretty well at start, i was able tu bully the kog, after about 15 minutes i had 120 cs to his 80. There had not been any deaths on the lane, items were zerkers + 2 dorans+ scepter + bfs for me, zerkers + 2 dorans + scepter + zeal for him. And then he just plain killed me. I engaged on him thinking i had the advantage, used all my spells (r for the whole fight), used heal and got killed while he lost about half his life. He didn't dodge my q or anything, he just autoattacked me with his w up. So, was my fault to pick sivir, or is he really that absurdly strong?
He didn't dodge my q or anything, he just autoattacked me with his w up. So, was my fault to pick sivir, or is he really that absurdly strong?
Duelling with Kogmaw is always really hard he has his "god phase" with his w on and his "derp phase" beeing close to completly useless without the w. Should add aswell that Sivir as a single champion is the worst AD there is (her ultimate gives some utility which you have to consider but dps/range is really low)
Kog has arguably the best scaling into late game.
Nope The general thought is that Trist has the best lategame. Kogmaw is like Vayne a champion which scales pretty well without too many items
Zerkers 2 Dorans IE PD LW BT GA
If you dont have a Nunu in the team I would suggest getting a PD over LW anyday
Also my generic ad carry build ends with double pd (ms nerf hurts but still can replace boots), ie, bt, lw/bc (99% of the time it's lw), defensive item (qss/veil/ga/FoN for lulz)
Kog's lategame is pretty much as good as trist, since he has about the same range, more damage, a linear slow, and similar AS at the expensive of mobility and displacement ability. Of course, the real tradeoff comes from not having trist's early game, but also not having trist's godawful midgame.
The standart is PD first on kogmaw ( I only go IE first when I have nunu support
(ms nerf hurts but still can replace boots),
I would suggest you never sell your boots (with tripple PD it might be doable but I dont know how much ms you will lose) with double PD instead of PD/boots you lose around 50 ms which is really huge esp on an AD carry like Kogmaw
Kog's lategame is pretty much as good as trist, since he has about the same range, more damage, a linear slow, and similar AS at the expensive of mobility and displacement ability. Of course, the real tradeoff comes from not having trist's early game, but also not having trist's godawful midgame.
Yes Kogmaw has way more damage than trist but the lack of constatly high range is the tradeoff beeing half useless 50% of the time is really big. I dont want to say that tristana> kogmaw as you said tristanas midgame is awefull and I would say in general Kogmaw is the better pick but Tristanas lategame is just better (the range is too strong)
Edit: for the LW vs PD calculation the cutoff when LW > PD onkogmaw with w up is around 400 armor add the better kiteability with the movementspeed and AS + the huge amount of AS slows (frozenheart Randuins etc) and more and more armor reductions from teammates I think PD is just reallly fucking good
I can't be the only person that think PD first on Kog is retarded :/
Kog has arguably the best scaling into late game. Nope The general thought is that Trist has the best lategame. Kogmaw is like Vayne a champion which scales pretty well without too many items
Also......... what the fuck? rofl. Yeah they only need like 10K gold worth of items not too many for sure.
Kog has arguably the best scaling into late game. Nope The general thought is that Trist has the best lategame. Kogmaw is like Vayne a champion which scales pretty well without too many items
Also......... what the fuck? rofl. Yeah they only need like 10K gold worth of items not too many for sure.
Kog really really wants the mobility from PD since he has no real escape outside his slow. If you max W he has a pretty smooth damage progression into the mid-late game even when you rush PD.
To build on what I said earlier, Kog, and Vayne to a certain extent, can do pretty hefty amounts of damage without many items due to their abilities. Kog's W giving him bonus 8% max hp damage is pretty nice in the mid-game when people don't have that much mr. Vayne's true damage from silver bolts helps in a similar manner, but most of the times you won't be maxing silver bolts first. By the time it's maxed you should've already completed a BF sword item and a good chunk of your damage is probably from your items.
Alright, the nerfs to AP kog hurt quite a bit but he's definitely still viable. I played him in an inhouse against bezel's cass earlier today with a less than ideal kogmaw poke comp and falling behind at level 1 and still went 6/1/5. 6 stacks is the maximum I went up to since any more and you'll run oom before the fight's over. He's can't be quite as big of an asshole at 6 but his poke still hurts. His laning didn't change at all other than doing less damage against champions with his ulti. It's still fun to play, stupidly hard pre-6 but post-6 it's strong.
Also......... what the fuck? rofl. Yeah they only need like 10K gold worth of items not too many for sure.
yes 10k isnt a lot? thats IE/PD + boots/dorans so not even half the build complete and 2-3 items is at least for me midgame so if you consider that as lategame then yes Kogmaw has a good lategame but the super lategame (I like to take it easier and see it as early - mid - lategame) he falls off a little bit compared to tristana (still really strong compared to some other ads)
Kog's W giving him bonus 8% max hp damage is pretty nice in the mid-game when people don't have that much mr. Vayne's true damage from silver bolts helps in a similar manner, but most of the times you won't be maxing silver bolts first. By the time it's maxed you should've already completed a BF sword item and a good chunk of your damage is probably from your items.
I mainly wanted to say that vaynes ultimate increases her dmg quite a bit (early game that will be around 30% bonus damage just with the ultimate)
Had a kog yesterday insisting, that madreds is a good choice on him and mandatory as the enemy team was pretty tanky. Now, i didn't want to be rude to him, so i kept my keyboard shut, still, is there any circumstance to pick one up, maybe instead of an LW or a BT/2ndPD?
On July 24 2012 22:07 Broetchenholer wrote: Had a kog yesterday insisting, that madreds is a good choice on him and mandatory as the enemy team was pretty tanky. Now, i didn't want to be rude to him, so i kept my keyboard shut, still, is there any circumstance to pick one up, maybe instead of an LW or a BT/2ndPD?
I once had a Kog say "Bloodrazor is the best on Kog, check mobafire". There is no reason to pick it up on an ad carry ever.
On July 24 2012 22:07 Broetchenholer wrote: Had a kog yesterday insisting, that madreds is a good choice on him and mandatory as the enemy team was pretty tanky. Now, i didn't want to be rude to him, so i kept my keyboard shut, still, is there any circumstance to pick one up, maybe instead of an LW or a BT/2ndPD?
If you math it out, the only time its ever worth it is if the enemy team all have like 3k+ HP AND 200+ armor and less than 80 MR. Otherwise, last whisper will synergize with your other items against a tanky team far better, increasing your DPS by a larger amount AND being less expensive. Your standard set of AD carry items are synergizing off each other (and kog's passive AS steroid, which people seem to forget he has sometimes) between AD, Crit, AS, and Armor Pen. Madred's only takes advantage of AS, but not AD, Crit or ArPen. The more items you have, the more you shouldn't be building a bloodrazor.
I will keep telling everyone that you rather should go double PD instead of PD/LW (if you want a bt and a defensive item if you dont you can obviously get all 3 items) unless you have a nunu or a WW
Edit: yet to see a calculation which would change my mindset
On July 25 2012 03:00 Ente wrote: I will keep telling everyone that you rather should go double PD instead of PD/LW (if you want a bt and a defensive item if you dont you can obviously get all 3 items) unless you have a nunu or a WW
Edit: yet to see a calculation which would change my mindset
Hmm. Calculations say that PDPD>PDLW in any situation where you can sit and shoot and the AS benefits kog's W linearly. The only case where PDLW would outdamage PDPD is where you don't get to stand still and shoot people aka, you can't utilize the extra attack speed. Against tanks with FH+Randuins this is likely to be the case. With AS slows from randuins+FH, you have ~1.3/1 AS, not particularly high at all. You're likely going to be kiting around more than shooting and shot for shot, a LW will do more than a second PD.
On July 24 2012 22:07 Broetchenholer wrote: Had a kog yesterday insisting, that madreds is a good choice on him and mandatory as the enemy team was pretty tanky. Now, i didn't want to be rude to him, so i kept my keyboard shut, still, is there any circumstance to pick one up, maybe instead of an LW or a BT/2ndPD?
I once had a Kog say "Bloodrazor is the best on Kog, check mobafire". There is no reason to pick it up on an ad carry ever.
Actually back in the day that used to be standard on Kog iirc.
On July 25 2012 03:00 Ente wrote: I will keep telling everyone that you rather should go double PD instead of PD/LW (if you want a bt and a defensive item if you dont you can obviously get all 3 items) unless you have a nunu or a WW
Edit: yet to see a calculation which would change my mindset
I just ran the numbers for an Ashe (no steroids to account for, already had a spreadsheet comparing different items) and LW vs 2nd PD breaks even at around 170 armor. PD gives additional movement speed, but LW is 550 gold cheaper. That's a pretty good reason to buy the 2nd PD actually.
On July 24 2012 22:07 Broetchenholer wrote: Had a kog yesterday insisting, that madreds is a good choice on him and mandatory as the enemy team was pretty tanky. Now, i didn't want to be rude to him, so i kept my keyboard shut, still, is there any circumstance to pick one up, maybe instead of an LW or a BT/2ndPD?
I once had a Kog say "Bloodrazor is the best on Kog, check mobafire". There is no reason to pick it up on an ad carry ever.
Actually back in the day that used to be standard on Kog iirc.
hit like a truck with his W on
I used to run that on him, until I tried an IE+PD build once.
On July 25 2012 03:00 Ente wrote: I will keep telling everyone that you rather should go double PD instead of PD/LW (if you want a bt and a defensive item if you dont you can obviously get all 3 items) unless you have a nunu or a WW
Edit: yet to see a calculation which would change my mindset
I just ran the numbers for an Ashe (no steroids to account for, already had a spreadsheet comparing different items) and LW vs 2nd PD breaks even at around 170 armor. PD gives additional movement speed, but LW is 550 gold cheaper. That's a pretty good reason to buy the 2nd PD actually.
Run it with an IE. PD outdps's LW for a good bit longer than 170 armor.
Hmm. Calculations say that PDPD>PDLW in any situation where you can sit and shoot and the AS benefits kog's W linearly. The only case where PDLW would outdamage PDPD is where you don't get to stand still and shoot people aka, you can't utilize the extra attack speed. Against tanks with FH+Randuins this is likely to be the case. With AS slows from randuins+FH, you have ~1.3/1 AS, not particularly high at all. You're likely going to be kiting around more than shooting and shot for shot, a LW will do more than a second PD.
Why? that doesnt make much sense if you have to run around to gain dps extra movementspeed will increase your dps further + the faster attack animation with more AS lets you attack faster. In addition to that the less AS you have the better AS gets so PD should actually get better if they get AS slows
On July 25 2012 03:00 Ente wrote: I will keep telling everyone that you rather should go double PD instead of PD/LW (if you want a bt and a defensive item if you dont you can obviously get all 3 items) unless you have a nunu or a WW
Edit: yet to see a calculation which would change my mindset
I just ran the numbers for an Ashe (no steroids to account for, already had a spreadsheet comparing different items) and LW vs 2nd PD breaks even at around 170 armor. PD gives additional movement speed, but LW is 550 gold cheaper. That's a pretty good reason to buy the 2nd PD actually.
Run it with an IE. PD outdps's LW for a good bit longer than 170 armor.
Hmm. Calculations say that PDPD>PDLW in any situation where you can sit and shoot and the AS benefits kog's W linearly. The only case where PDLW would outdamage PDPD is where you don't get to stand still and shoot people aka, you can't utilize the extra attack speed. Against tanks with FH+Randuins this is likely to be the case. With AS slows from randuins+FH, you have ~1.3/1 AS, not particularly high at all. You're likely going to be kiting around more than shooting and shot for shot, a LW will do more than a second PD.
Why? that doesnt make much sense if you have to run around to gain dps extra movementspeed will increase your dps further + the faster attack animation with more AS lets you attack faster. In addition to that the less AS you have the better AS gets so PD should actually get better if they get AS slows
Attack speed reductions just reduce the final attack speed. This means getting more attack speed on items is neither better nor worse in regards to attack speed debuffs. The only case where this is not true are silly cases attack speed would be reduced to 0.2 in any case, in which case more AD is better.
This is correct my spreadsheet says the same If we would have a BT in addition to that the cutoff would be around 270 Armor btw (all done with AD quint/marks)
Edit: and this is for Ashe for Kogmaw the cutoff is way above that (considering you would have a activated W without its obviosly comparable to Ashe, LW would be a tiny bit stronger because of the 30% passive AS)
I dont recommend that either "blindly" going double PD (if we exclude kogmaw where I think you rarely should go LW) but for other ADs lastwhisper is often a good idea because its cheaper (you will often find yourself with ~2.3k-2.7k gold when you have to back) in that situation you often should get LW. I just want more people think about not going LW and stop the brain afk Lastwhisper which is the standart atm. On a sidenote the highest 4 item dmg you can get (you will really rarely be able to go 5 dmg item AD) is double PD IE LW in pretty much any circumstance (when we ignore BC which I do nowadays you need to attack quite often but fully stacked it outdmgs a lastwhisper until over 220 armor )
This is the Kog'Maw thread and Kog is pretty much the only AD carry I play .
For other ADs, since the calculations are just for auto attacks, you gotta factor in spells like Ashe Volley or Graves Buckshot, which don't benefit at all from PD, but do greatly from LW with AD and armor pen. This doesn't apply for Kog, since all his spells are magic damage and only the ult has a bit of AD scaling, but most of that is base damage anyway.
On August 09 2012 15:47 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Is IE + zeal (5025) or wriggles + PD (4445) best to get first with kog? I've always done the latter but I'm starting to get curious which is better...
You want a wriggles ONLY in the case that you are getting shit on or expecting to get shit on. Cases like double bruiser bottom are the only times that wriggles makes sense to get. Every other case, you want IE+zeal. I'm unsure of whether zeal+BF or straight IE is better on kog though.
You can get away with zeal+BF or even PD rush in some cases on Kog because his mid-game scaling is much more forgiving than other AD champs due to his W. The movespeed that Zeal/PD grants on Kog is also especially valuable since he has no mobility/positioning skill. Straight IE rushes still offer the most damage output though.
I dont recommend that either "blindly" going double PD (if we exclude kogmaw where I think you rarely should go LW) but for other ADs lastwhisper is often a good idea because its cheaper (you will often find yourself with ~2.3k-2.7k gold when you have to back) in that situation you often should get LW. I just want more people think about not going LW and stop the brain afk Lastwhisper which is the standart atm. On a sidenote the highest 4 item dmg you can get (you will really rarely be able to go 5 dmg item AD) is double PD IE LW in pretty much any circumstance (when we ignore BC which I do nowadays you need to attack quite often but fully stacked it outdmgs a lastwhisper until over 220 armor )
Just learned the hard way the sole reason why you NEED a LW in there over another PD. Thornmail. With a fully stacked BT+IE+2xPD, I melted myself. I'm not sure that the LW would've let me kill the guy before I killed myself (death recap shows I took ~1.3k reflected damage). You do do more straight up damage with 2xPD but if they have someone diving you that you have to focus down, you're gonna have a bad time (We had a cho top vs mundo top and both decided that diving the AD on the opposite team was a better idea than peeling for their own carries)
I dont recommend that either "blindly" going double PD (if we exclude kogmaw where I think you rarely should go LW) but for other ADs lastwhisper is often a good idea because its cheaper (you will often find yourself with ~2.3k-2.7k gold when you have to back) in that situation you often should get LW. I just want more people think about not going LW and stop the brain afk Lastwhisper which is the standart atm. On a sidenote the highest 4 item dmg you can get (you will really rarely be able to go 5 dmg item AD) is double PD IE LW in pretty much any circumstance (when we ignore BC which I do nowadays you need to attack quite often but fully stacked it outdmgs a lastwhisper until over 220 armor )
Just learned the hard way the sole reason why you NEED a LW in there over another PD. Thornmail. With a fully stacked BT+IE+2xPD, I melted myself. I'm not sure that the LW would've let me kill the guy before I killed myself (death recap shows I took ~1.3k reflected damage). You do do more straight up damage with 2xPD but if they have someone diving you that you have to focus down, you're gonna have a bad time (We had a cho top vs mundo top and both decided that diving the AD on the opposite team was a better idea than peeling for their own carries)
I dont recommend that either "blindly" going double PD (if we exclude kogmaw where I think you rarely should go LW) but for other ADs lastwhisper is often a good idea because its cheaper (you will often find yourself with ~2.3k-2.7k gold when you have to back) in that situation you often should get LW. I just want more people think about not going LW and stop the brain afk Lastwhisper which is the standart atm. On a sidenote the highest 4 item dmg you can get (you will really rarely be able to go 5 dmg item AD) is double PD IE LW in pretty much any circumstance (when we ignore BC which I do nowadays you need to attack quite often but fully stacked it outdmgs a lastwhisper until over 220 armor )
Just learned the hard way the sole reason why you NEED a LW in there over another PD. Thornmail. With a fully stacked BT+IE+2xPD, I melted myself. I'm not sure that the LW would've let me kill the guy before I killed myself (death recap shows I took ~1.3k reflected damage). You do do more straight up damage with 2xPD but if they have someone diving you that you have to focus down, you're gonna have a bad time (We had a cho top vs mundo top and both decided that diving the AD on the opposite team was a better idea than peeling for their own carries)
A fully stacked bloodthirster should basically cancel out thornmail completely. Last whisper does not change the damage you suffer from thornmail in any way, either. But still, against high armor targets you obviously want a LW so they die faster. Though i don't have the exact maths as to how much armor they need to have to make the LW more effective then a PD. If you really have problems with the thormail damage (which i don't think should happen), you should rather get a second BT so you can leech even more life. But that very much cuts into your damage, so i doubt it is worth it.
On August 09 2012 20:21 Simberto wrote: A fully stacked bloodthirster should basically cancel out thornmail completely. Last whisper does not change the damage you suffer from thornmail in any way, either. But still, against high armor targets you obviously want a LW so they die faster. Though i don't have the exact maths as to how much armor they need to have to make the LW more effective then a PD. If you really have problems with the thormail damage (which i don't think should happen), you should rather get a second BT so you can leech even more life. But that very much cuts into your damage, so i doubt it is worth it.
It does actually make a huge difference. The amount of damage returned from thornmail is calculated before armor reductions. If they have 200 armor for instance, for every 100 attack damage you have, you're doing 33 damage to them, lifestealing 20% of that (6.6) while you're taking 30 damage back as magic damage.
With a LW, that 200 becomes 120, you're doing 45 damage to them, lifestealing 20% of that (9) while still taking the same 30 damage back as magic damage. As the armor values go up more and more, LW becomes better and better for you at taking out any target with thornmail since you're taking less damage from thornmail in order to kill them.
Is IE + zeal (5025) or wriggles + PD (4445) best to get first with kog? I've always done the latter but I'm starting to get curious which is better...
Right now people usually dont go wriggels anymore because it got nerfed too hard.
And you are actually correct with the Thornmail it is calculated before Armor so LW would be more effecient. I actually have to correct myself PD PD IE is more dmg until around 300 armor (~170 without w) and PD PD IE BT is more dmg until around 400 armor (~210 without w) Thornmail is just such a rare item
Also remember that LW is actually relatively inexpensive - almost 600 less than PD. Although, zeal + crit cloak would be more damage against a particularly low armor target.
Is IE + zeal (5025) or wriggles + PD (4445) best to get first with kog? I've always done the latter but I'm starting to get curious which is better...
Right now people usually dont go wriggels anymore because it got nerfed too hard.
And you are actually correct with the Thornmail it is calculated before Armor so LW would be more effecient. I actually have to correct myself PD PD IE is more dmg until around 300 armor (~170 without w) and PD PD IE BT is more dmg until around 400 armor (~210 without w) Thornmail is just such a rare item
I would like to see the maths for this, this sounds weird. I assume you mean that IE PD PD does more damage then IE PD LW until 300 armor, and IE BT PD PD does more then IE BT PD LW until 400 armor? I am a bit lazy at the moment, but i find that really hard to believe, so seeing how you come to this results would be nice.
Yes LW is a cheaper item but if you consider stuff outside of pure dmg PD is way stronger then LW for that: better kiting due to better turnspeed with more AS and obviously run faster.
Edit: should add the damage calculation was for 2.5k HP which is realistic bruisers often have more but that would just make PD more effecient
I don't think you linked the correct page, it sends me to a site to log into a google account (which i don't have), i doubt that is needed to only view your spreadsheet.
If you don't believe his numbers, you can do it with a pen and paper or excel. All the relevant armor, damage, etc numbers are available on the lol wiki. It's pretty simple, AD*(1+(critchance*IE multiplier)*AS*(enemy defense).
So i have to have a google account to see it? I hate how so much stuff on the internet wants you to make an account, which honestly does not give you any benefit whatsoever. Also, that generic formula starts to get more complicated when you actually apply it to champions, because they almost always got some sort of additional effect. Nonetheless i think i will just do the math myself, i have just been to lazy to do so and hoped i could skip that part.
because they almost always got some sort of additional effect
additional defensive effects /external buffs (bedides kogmaw q and w) are not taken into account so every AS buff would put it more in LW favor and every Armor debuff/buff would put it into PD favor and ofc increasing the hp to 3k or w/e would increase PD aswell
Ok, calculated the first set of data myself now, and got a break-even point between IE PD PD and IE PD LW at 132 armor without W, and 260 armor with W enabled. I used a 2.5k hp target with 100 MR for my calculations.
Î calculated all of those in. Sadly, it is pretty hard to show you those calculations since they are on a sheet of paper here, but i will think of something. Of course, minor differences might be the result of mastery or rune choices, i went with AD red and AD quints, for example.
Why are you even trying to build an AS item on AP Kog? AP Kog revolves around his ult and E. Sure he does lots of damage with W lategame but you auto attack only when it's completely safe to, which is not often.
On December 06 2012 12:53 koreasilver wrote: Why are you even trying to build an AS item on AP Kog? AP Kog revolves around his ult and E. Sure he does lots of damage with W lategame but you auto attack only when it's completely safe to, which is not often.
Because this is Season 3 Normal blind pick!
But really that's all. Best build Seems to be the old standards.
In CLG vs Dig, Doublelift went Wriggles -> Wit's End -> IE. Doublelift has never been the strongest in game theory, but any idea the merit behind that?
Not sure if that was a planned build or more of a reaction to the specific game. Ezreal went straight for brutalizer. Casters suggested Wriggles was an attempt to maintain some physical damage reduction with the extra armor. The extra ward every few minutes might have helped Sona afford that fast Shurelya's (which is really good with KM too) Wit's End works well with kog's kit and helps him survive early on. IE to convert his farming advantage into a win?
Wriggles->Wit's End->IE Farm up safely->Stay alive in teamfights->Win!
There has been some merit in wriggles first in the past but mixing on hit items with an AD build is simply suboptimal for champion DPS. Aside from the early wriggle's DL's build didn't have much of an effect on the game. With mercurial and hexdrinker in the game there's no reason ever to put a wit's end in your AD build for mres. On-hit Kog is weaker than AD Kog but mixing the two gets you something worse, even on Kog Maw.
The only explanation I can think of is the combination of wit's/wriggles for faster barons/dragons. I don't know why you would sacrifice so much damage synergy with IE to do that though, he certainly wasn't getting wit's simply for mres, and Dig wasn't in much of position to challenge CLG by the time they baroned.
i think the wits end was in part for the mr and attackspeed. we see a lot of kogmaws rushing phantom dancers. well wits end is much cheaper and gives defensive stats at the cost of crit and some movespeed.
so maybe he was seeing if wits could act as a cheaper attack speed item that also gives defensive stats.
Well if I remember correctly someone a while ago mathed out the dpses and found that malady wits is better than BF PD or something (don't quote me on these exact items, I can't recall exactly but it was something similar). The conclusion was that one should go malady wits then segue into IE and a traditional AD build, and that's what his build reminded me of.
EDIT: lolol chauster just called double's kog build shitty in his ama
I am undecided. On the one hand the alt targets have to be very close to the main one, kind of like the old tiamat, so it's not a very effective tool against competent or well spread teams. On the other hand the bolts will go for targets even out of your AA range so long as they're close to the main one.I was worried you'd have to make sure all three were in auto attack range or you wouldn't get the extra shots, but you can still snipe from the back at clusters of enemies.
I think it's a good item but it's situational and actually requires skill to use. you have use teamwork to set up situations where you can get the cluster fire and pick your targets well (I'm thinking it would work really well with a diana hoovering a frontline together for example.
I've been loving this HP stacking meta. AP Kog says Hi. Seriously though, E clears waves with ease, R does an excellent job of poking, and by end game W does ~12% per shot. With his innate as buff I normally just go for AP/MPen. What do you guys think? Have you seen/played much of AP Kog of late?
I've been trying here and there but I just don't find him to be playable because of his ult mana costs. Unless they reduce the max stacks or reduce the mana cost per stack, I don't think he can work that well. He also does not fare well against the popular mid picks these days.
And on the point of hp stacking, AD Kog already does really well against it anyway, because the W base of 6% magic damage plus the BOTRK 4% physical damage already is plenty. AP Kog doesn't really do it much better if you factor in AD Kog's AD, AS, and crit damage. The only reason to play AP Kog over AD Kog is still really just over the power of the ult, but the ult can't be used the same way as before it got nerfed hard.
Personally I've had a lot of success as AP Kog so long as the enemy mid is not an AD caster. That being said, I'm low elo so I don't know how much that's worth. You can't spam the ult all day long, but if you manage your mana and are good at hitting it, then it's not really a problem. :>
I typically use it for poking, rarely going over 2 stacks. Spamming it burns mana quick but if you are patient and get some lucky E hits at max range you will force your opponent out of lane. Once you get comfortable with it, it is godlike at picking off runners after a team fight.
I'm no expert (only played AP kog a few times) but I found Chalice absolutely essential for obvious reasons and IMO an AS item (I'm partial to Malady but Wits works too) is essential. Liandry's is surprisingly good as well, It helps in forcing the enemy out of the fight at which point the range of your ult allows you to pick them off. Not quite sure whether to turn tear into Seraphs or Muramana as he gets value out of both, but I've always gone Seraphs for the shield. Lich Bane also synergises well with his kit (W and R specifically), but I didn't get to the point where I could work it in to my build.
Biggest problem imo is that he's still Kog. He's still stupidly easy to jump on, has no escapes and needs protection.
I generally go Tear, Deathcap, Rylai's, Archangel's, Void Staff, Lichbane. Lichbane before Void Staff if they're not getting any MR. Also I tend to get the Giant's Belt for Rylai's before working on Deathcap.
On February 12 2013 08:01 cLutZ wrote: What are the AP kog builds?
Tear>Cata>ROA? or Tear >Rylias? Etc?
I usually go Tear -> Catalyst -> HG or Catalyst -> Tear -> HG. I think his R's ratio is too low but base damage is high, so might as well focus on mpen.
I personally go tear => sorcs => giants belt => rylais => lichbane => voidstaff. AP ratios on ulti are garbage but the extra lichbane proc wrecks bruisers when coupled with your W.
You need the tear for mana (RoA fulfills the same role but is much more expensive) but delaying your Rylais til after RoA or any other big item really, leaves you with a pretty big gap in effectiveness when you start spiking in power (level 11 when you get enough range on ulti to poke from safety.
Chalice I think is pretty terrible on AP kogmaw. You need a mana pool in order to not run oom in a teamfight, mana regen is nowhere near enough. Most teamfights, I'll go up to 5 stacks before letting it cooldown and a chalice gives nowhere near enough to sustain that. Having a large mana pool (Just a well stacked tear) is enough to continuously go up to three stacks while sieging a tower for pretty much three minutes. If you can't make something happen in that time frame, then you're doing something wrong.
Between rylais (slow) and lichbane (MS), you should generally be able to keep everyone in the game between 1500-2000 range throughout most fights, if someone (malphite/xin for example) charge in, you can reasonably safely walk up to Wautos+E them while still casting R's on the back line. The main point though is to use E defensively (not for damage but to keep people away from you)
I'm personally not a fan of the liandry's on kog, even with rylais, 5% current health damage (E/R are AOE, only Q is single target and it has a pitiful range) isn't particularly significant considering how much it costs. It's much better to get a lichbane over it and abuse your W range + lichbane procs when you're in a fight or grab voidstaff to hit much harder with the high base damage. Keep in mind that lichbane gives you a .75 scaling AP ability on a ~2.5s cd if you're throwing out R's which is a pretty massive increase in dps.
Looking at the patch notes, I might have to revisit my stance on liandry's torment. You still NEED a tear first for the mana pool but rylai's -> liandry's or even guise+sorcs -> rylai's -> liandry's might be pretty damn good. You're much weaker in a teamfight than if you built a lichbane but you're much much stronger at poking from 2000 range with liandry's since you can whittle down tanks and squishies.
~5-7% health + base damage on kogmaw's ultimate is actually pretty massive. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing him again in competitive play.
I've just bought this hero. What i've been wondering is if the damage based on targets max health on his W spell is somehow affected by resistances? Also, is the same effect on the item "Blade of the Ruined King" affected by resistances? Or will you really damage 11% of opponents health when you've maxed your W + regular damage?
On February 17 2013 17:53 TigerKarl wrote: I've just bought this hero. What i've been wondering is if the damage based on targets max health on his W spell is somehow affected by resistances? Also, is the same effect on the item "Blade of the Ruined King" affected by resistances? Or will you really damage 11% of opponents health when you've maxed your W + regular damage?
both kog'maw's W and botrk's passive are magic damage and are reduced by magic resistance.
I have no idea how the reduction of % works, but since 100 MR = 2x EHP I'd guess that if you have 100 MR and Kog'maw 0 MPen that he does only half the %dmg.
On February 17 2013 17:53 TigerKarl wrote: I've just bought this hero. What i've been wondering is if the damage based on targets max health on his W spell is somehow affected by resistances? Also, is the same effect on the item "Blade of the Ruined King" affected by resistances? Or will you really damage 11% of opponents health when you've maxed your W + regular damage?
both kog'maw's W and botrk's passive are magic damage and are reduced by magic resistance.
I have no idea how the reduction of % works, but since 100 MR = 2x EHP I'd guess that if you have 100 MR and Kog'maw 0 MPen that he does only half the %dmg.
Kogs w is magical damage bortk's passive is physical.
Ok thanks, so both the KogMaw passive and Blade of the Ruined King are effective against champions that stack health, but are mediocre against armor/magic resist. I guess i still like BotRK, but i'll consider it a situational item now and won't build it first anymore.
I wonder if bumping this thread matters considering its a champ thread, kogmaw with botrk + essense reaver is nearly impossible to lose with. I went from low plat to low diamond on nearly only kogmaw. ended up with around a 20-4 win/loss record
with the lucian nerfs i think he's up there with jax and kayle as the strongest hypercarries in the game.
He is a very strong pick right now as seen in OGN, and one could argue that the decline of high-mobility assassins had a very favorable effect on Kog as well. That said, I'm not sold on essence reaver at all, although I didn't try it. The Dblade into Triforce into BorK build seems like the strongest option atm. Need to try Essence reaver for myself, but the relative slot inefficiency of the item makes it a bit strange on a lategame hypercarry like Kog.
I think Kog is pretty strong now- lack of Randuin's slow on movement speed, along with the general decline of assassins thanks to exhaust being stronger means most of what made life miserable is gone now. Also his w being free doesn't hurt either.
I'm not entirely sold on essence reaver, but I guess Kog probably sits and autos quite a bit, especially if there's down time.
if you use your ult every 1-2 casts you can cast it the entire game as long as you hit someone with your W a few times, once the fight gets real hectic you don't run out of mana. kogmaw has never been a hypercarry that needed all his slots to be effective, he's basically the adc jax
literally botrk tri force makes him impossible to deal with doing the essense reaver makes it so you don't ever have to leave lane/team fights its crazy for him imo
I also don't like essence Reaver. Early on I prefer Blade and Tri, later, LW and IE are indispensable.
Also, I almost never encounter mana issues. The real decision for me is sometimes I feel like Zerkers are suboptimal (which I feel about for ADCs all the time), but I can never figure out until I already bought them.
On June 25 2014 17:39 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Essence Reaver is terrible on Kog. He doesn't have mana problem unless you spam ult with him.
"essence reaver is terrible on kog, he doesn't have mana problems unless you play him right"
;|
bold statement
I dont see much of a reason to build essence reaver on him as well. I hardly use the ult outside of a fight or for checking brushes and maybe a little bit of poking. If you constantly use it to waveclear you might need it due to mana problems but i have personally never gone oom on kog without essence. The mana from trinity and smart ulti management is more than enough to fight. Also i dont see why you would want to delay bork for essence reaver. Having a bork is a lot better than having an essence reaver and delaying your bork for some mana and Cdr....doesnt sound very good. Bork+triforce is a huge spike on kog
On June 25 2014 13:24 cLutZ wrote: I also don't like essence Reaver. Early on I prefer Blade and Tri, later, LW and IE are indispensable.
Also, I almost never encounter mana issues. The real decision for me is sometimes I feel like Zerkers are suboptimal (which I feel about for ADCs all the time), but I can never figure out until I already bought them.
Been thinking about trying CDR boots or merc treads on kog. More W uptime can be pretty sexy and CC is pretty annoying altho you could argue that if you are out of position to get hard cced you are pretty dead anyway as kog Any experience on that?
essense got buffed more but I stopped playing him recently, need to try again, having too much fun with other champs. your ult should be cast everytime its off cooldown though in my opinion, it really ruins your opponents games.
bam lee, lucidity works pretty good, merc don't really help, you'd be better off getting the fast boots, if kog gets caught he's dead most of the time.
On July 04 2014 05:08 Anakko wrote: Agreed. AD Kog uses ult mostly to proc Triforce/check bushes. If you're spamming it, you might as well play AP kog and build tear instead
like i said... and what you're saying...if you cast his ult when its off cd it will proc everything... you should therefore....cast...it...the...entire...time
On July 04 2014 09:00 GreggSauce wrote: essense got buffed more but I stopped playing him recently, need to try again, having too much fun with other champs. your ult should be cast everytime its off cooldown though in my opinion, it really ruins your opponents games.
bam lee, lucidity works pretty good, merc don't really help, you'd be better off getting the fast boots, if kog gets caught he's dead most of the time.
On July 04 2014 05:08 Anakko wrote: Agreed. AD Kog uses ult mostly to proc Triforce/check bushes. If you're spamming it, you might as well play AP kog and build tear instead
like i said... and what you're saying...if you cast his ult when its off cd it will proc everything... you should therefore....cast...it...the...entire...time
when do you usually buy the essence reaver? First item or after triforce? I think i will give essence reaver+CDR boots a try to see if the 25% CDR are good and to take a look at the mana management.
Dont see how essence reaver first would be better than BOTRK or Triforce first. So much stronger single item timings, I know you get essence reaver earlier but you don't even really need the mana on Kog. Just dont spam ult and youre fine.
Building 25% cdr on an ADC from first two items seems weird. The ADC you are laning against will have far stronger combat stats.
I dunno thought I guess it worked on EZ for a while...
On July 04 2014 05:08 Anakko wrote: Agreed. AD Kog uses ult mostly to proc Triforce/check bushes. If you're spamming it, you might as well play AP kog and build tear instead
like i said... and what you're saying...if you cast his ult when its off cd it will proc everything... you should therefore....cast...it...the...entire...time
Triforce proc has a 2 sec cd, you probably won't need to proc it more than 3/4 times a fight, and you still have your q and your e. It's not like you're gonna be able to ult/proc 10 times in a row. Essence reaver is not a good item on an hypercarry that needs attack speed and crit mostly. It's not exactly terrible, but there are simply better options.
On July 04 2014 09:23 ZataN wrote: Dont see how essence reaver first would be better than BOTRK or Triforce first. So much stronger single item timings, I know you get essence reaver earlier but you don't even really need the mana on Kog. Just dont spam ult and youre fine.
Building 25% cdr on an ADC from first two items seems weird. The ADC you are laning against will have far stronger combat stats.
I dunno thought I guess it worked on EZ for a while...
I wasn't gonna rush these items. I always rush triforce. The Cdr boots are something more mid-late oriented since during siege/poke situations more uptime on W would make things a bit easier. I don't know how to fit in essence reaver timing wise which is why Iam asking him I wanna give it a try before dismissing it
I already said I stopped using it, but people that think it doesn't work and there is only one build path are plain ridiculous. That's part of the reason, NA/EU are so far behind korea. Because everyone just follows whatever the korean meta is instead of finding out what is really powerful on their own.
You'd be amazed at how oppressive of a lane it becomes if you get slightly ahead as kogmaw and you get essence reaver. you can basically Q, W, R, AA, R, E, AA, R, AA, etc and trade for like 70% of their health and still have 30-40% your mana
I would get it after double dorans if you want to try it out.
On July 08 2014 00:36 GreggSauce wrote: I already said I stopped using it, but people that think it doesn't work and there is only one build path are plain ridiculous. That's part of the reason, NA/EU are so far behind korea. Because everyone just follows whatever the korean meta is instead of finding out what is really powerful on their own.
You'd be amazed at how oppressive of a lane it becomes if you get slightly ahead as kogmaw and you get essence reaver. you can basically Q, W, R, AA, R, E, AA, R, AA, etc and trade for like 70% of their health and still have 30-40% your mana
I would get it after double dorans if you want to try it out.
People saying this build path is ridiculous has nothing to do with NA/EU being behind KR. Lol. I think kog can be strong in trades if you can manage to hit a Q before anything else.
I am keen to give this a go, as much as I feel like it will be a waste of time compared to TF first Kog.
I'm not saying that the normal build is the only acceptable build but I really don't see essence reaver being useful. There are other unorthodox builds that could work. For example, why not just build manamune then if you play a spam happy style? It's more cost efficient and has an on-hit effect which works well with Kog'Maw's naturally high aspd.
On July 08 2014 00:36 GreggSauce wrote: I already said I stopped using it, but people that think it doesn't work and there is only one build path are plain ridiculous. That's part of the reason, NA/EU are so far behind korea. Because everyone just follows whatever the korean meta is instead of finding out what is really powerful on their own.
You'd be amazed at how oppressive of a lane it becomes if you get slightly ahead as kogmaw and you get essence reaver. you can basically Q, W, R, AA, R, E, AA, R, AA, etc and trade for like 70% of their health and still have 30-40% your mana
I would get it after double dorans if you want to try it out.
People saying this build path is ridiculous has nothing to do with NA/EU being behind KR. Lol. I think kog can be strong in trades if you can manage to hit a Q before anything else.
I am keen to give this a go, as much as I feel like it will be a waste of time compared to TF first Kog.
You misread what I wrote. People blindly follow pro's who blindly follow korea who build the way they think is best. There isn't that much theorycrafting behind almost any of it. Essence does need a buff, but if you get ahead, you can literally make it so your opponent can't get a single cs away from the turret, and even then they are hurting. I used it a bunch when it came out on normals and a few higher level team games, but only used it probably 3 out of 20 kog maw games i've had since then, all were wins, and all I started snowballing and just never stopped.
On July 08 2014 17:16 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I'm not saying that the normal build is the only acceptable build but I really don't see essence reaver being useful. There are other unorthodox builds that could work. For example, why not just build manamune then if you play a spam happy style? It's more cost efficient and has an on-hit effect which works well with Kog'Maw's naturally high aspd.
manamune doesn't add combat stats for awhile but it could work, he will go manaless in an instant if you misuse the active of it though which is why i'd avoid it, kogs ult can finish a lot of people off that think they're safe where manamune you'll have to worry about positioning, W up/down time, and if it's toggled on when you want it to be. It wouldn't be the same as jayce, leave it on for the combo then hammer your mana back up.
On July 09 2014 03:39 GreggSauce wrote: manamune doesn't add combat stats for awhile but it could work, he will go manaless in an instant if you misuse the active of it though which is why i'd avoid it
Kog will be out of mana, but the other team will be dead. Fair trade imo.
On July 09 2014 03:39 GreggSauce wrote: manamune doesn't add combat stats for awhile but it could work, he will go manaless in an instant if you misuse the active of it though which is why i'd avoid it
Kog will be out of mana, but the other team will be dead. Fair trade imo.
not necessarily, give it a shot, you will be manaless after about 4-5 R's or auto's depending. to really get the most out of muramana you need to have another large mana item. I can't find the math for it, but its somewhere on reddit. this is why singed and ryze go for high mana items.
all muramana does for kog right now is let him hit really hard for like 3-5 aa's and if that's what you want i think sword of divine would be a lot more awesome. no amount of mana will let him spam his skills/ultimate
EDIT this does mean blue build kogmaw could actually be viable, i've done it with him and lucian in high plat/low diamond against an AD team
On July 24 2014 11:39 eagle wrote: only build right now is triforce into bortk really i mean you could try infinty then phantom/shiv maybe
that is nowhere near true, i'd say the split is relatively even between botrk, IE, or tri force first, but if a kog can go back for a BF that player is much farther ahead from the triforce builder.
Any one understand why some pro kogs are doing tf-botrk-pd? Seems like a terrible build because you can't even synergize an ie with the pd until 5 items, and you get no defensive item.
honestly it's quite bad because you already have a lot of attack speed, you don't really need more. The only good thing is that it gives you better mobility.
His range increase lasts 8 seconds out of 17. He's a god during the 4 seconds he's hitting an armour/MR-shredded target at 700+ range doing additional %HP damage, but once both wear out he's only got a permanent 30% AS increase and decent defensive stats for a marskman to show... along with 500 range. When you fight with AD Kog you really want to decide the fight during these 8s otherwise the enemy marksman is going to do a lot more work (unless he's Graves, bleh).
Obviously you've got the tools to do so, but better provide enough peeling to make sure you spend more time attacking than running during this time. Jinx for example doesn't have this issue because with how her switcheroo works she mostly care about triggering her passive, she's not cooldown/duration-dependant, even though she requires peeling too since immobile and short-range minigun.
Kog'maw is more of a pick you go if you have a strong team you know will and can protect you later on. Not a playmaking champ like Lucian .. he is more of a champ to hide in the backline until its safe to go in instead of just firing off ults.
Why is Kog Maw, almost always only played in super-peel comps in competitive play? Are pros that much better at diving than regular soloQ players?
I would say its more the opposite pro players/communication are better at protecting not diving, so you can tell your toplaner to stay with you and he will do it, while in solo q you often have the situation that you dont know where the fuck your support went again.
And as already said kogmaw is 50% of the time a god and 50% of the time the weakest ad in the game and you really cannot fight when your w is down (thats one reason I actually run some cdr runes on kogmaw) But if you look at all the immobile ads: Jinx, Kogmaw, Ashe, Draven, (Sivir) they either need some protection or with sivir /ashe you have to engage the enemy team and not let them engage on you
Edit: with that being said I recently started playing a couple of kog'maw games(spamming the shit out of him) - I keep having a ~75% winrate over 85 games and rose from ~d2 to master 170 points atm, my point is that he is pretty damn strong in solo q
What masteries should I take on Kog'Maw if I'm going for the Guinsoo's/Hurricane build? Runes? Also what is the best ordering of items? Are there any good guides for playing Kog'Maw in Season 6?
Not a lot of info out there on Kog, he got nerfed about as hard as a champion has ever been nerfed in the preseason patch. Probably your best bet is to check out some of these builds
Basically on kog you should go 18/0/12 or 18/12 with rageblade first and your full build should look something like rageblade/swifties/hurricane/bork/fotm/sterak. Wit's is also really good.
The buffs in 6.3 were really big for him he is definitely pretty good now. You still have to pick a team for him though.
On February 11 2016 02:29 nafta wrote: Basically on kog you should go 18/0/12 or 18/12 with rageblade first and your full build should look something like rageblade/swifties/hurricane/bork/fotm/sterak. Wit's is also really good.
The buffs in 6.3 were really big for him he is definitely pretty good now. You still have to pick a team for him though.
what is fotm? I can only think of face of the mountain lol but that doesn't seem right
what about LW/RFC/IE/Mercurial/Maw? Some of these are definitely more situational than other items for kog but is steraks generally better than these?
LW I haven't seen updated math on so it might be completely bad, dunno. same for IE, dunno if it beats out kog's other options. RFC/Merc/Maw seem solid though. how do you think sterak's or whatever fotm is stacks up with them?
I meant frozen mallet dunno why I wrote fotm. Not really honestly. I haven't played standart ad kog on this patch but the way I mentioned was significantly better before don't see how would that change.
The reason sterak is good is because everyone will focus you. If they don't you just insta wipe the entire team. Obviously if you can get away with not building it would be great.
You know when he presses w your ad is reduced to 55% while on hit stays the same? Now with the 15 minimum damage on w too it is just REALLY good.
On February 11 2016 03:04 nafta wrote: I meant frozen mallet dunno why I wrote fotm. Not really honestly. I haven't played standart ad kog on this patch but the way I mentioned was significantly better before don't see how would that change.
The reason sterak is good is because everyone will focus you. If they don't you just insta wipe the entire team. Obviously if you can get away with not building it would be great.
You know when he presses w your ad is reduced to 55% while on hit stays the same? Now with the 15 minimum damage on w too it is just REALLY good.
oh lol. what would you replace then for a situational qss/banshee/maw? sterak's? or mallet?
do you think maw/sterak's combo is not worth? I feel like that would be better than mallet/sterak's since people should still be getting swifties anyways and maw shield+passive seems really good on kog. if swifties start dying out I guess it could be a nice option later on when you see everyone has bought boots already and there are little to no swifties.
but I haven't played kog at all for like a month so idk. gonna pick him up again tho
It's hilarious, but he's so super immobile. With so much attack speed now, I'm watchin Qt struggle to even move while attacking lol. Would definitely need a team built around him, but he does do tons of damage.
On February 11 2016 05:35 Lost My Will To Live wrote: It's hilarious, but he's so super immobile. With so much attack speed now, I'm watchin Qt struggle to even move while attacking lol. Would definitely need a team built around him, but he does do tons of damage.
i'm sure some pros can surprise us
this guy does pretty impressive moving
although its only 2 items lol. with 6 I don't doubt that it will be near impossible to kite effectively without wasting too much AS
EPT
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