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Mutalisks are very expensive but they used to be good because they allowed zergs to defend against drops and do some damage (they force the terran player to make some turrets) all the time.
Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec.
In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight.
But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs.
So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it.
Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH...
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Muta has more roles than just killing your oppenent as they pop , like mention before they keep oppon ent at bay , can do dmg to their economic line , make them waste minerals on turrets wich all this comes to making them waste attention spawn into those little things that may throw off his thinking and timmings, you should explore in yourself what do you hope to acomplish with a certain unit, comp or action you decided to take, do you hope for a straight up win ? is this intend me to buy time to expand or tech ? do i just want to harras and switch tech to throw off my opponent ?
there is a reason right now pros are trying new stuff wich is great! be open to explore new corners of the game maybe in the end corruptours are a bad idea maybe not, but if we always stay with the same you might not find the beautyfull wonders of this game...try re-calling FruitDealer .. no one used infestors and he make them shine and won a GSL and there was a time infestors were so popular with BL-infestor comp..who would thought about that on those times ?
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On November 18 2015 03:25 FireCake wrote:
Mutalisks are very expensive but they used to be good because they allowed zergs to defend against drops and do some damage (they force the terran player to make some turrets) all the time.
Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec.
In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight.
But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs.
So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it.
Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH...
Thanks for your input! Two questions:
-You say mutalisks are bad against drops now because of the medivac upgrade. Are you seeing the medivac upgrade researched in most of your games? I haven't seen a lot of LotV TvZ's but I thought that upgrade was still pretty rare (though not as rare as Caduceus Reactor)
-Given that corruptors would be the obvious alternative to mutalisks, aren't mutas still the better choice for defending drops? Or do you go for something else entirely to defend drops, since mutas are now a bad investment?
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How do Turrets and Marines really counter Mutalisks exactly?
Yes you can't engage them directly, that has been true since WoL.
Where ever I have Turrets and Marines, the Mutalisks just dance around them.
Widow Mines are static and you need three to fire at the exact same time on a flock of bunched up Mutalisks.
Overseers revealing them and tanking the missiles still works just fine.
Thors are slow as hell and were the only real 'mobile' *counter* to Mutalisks for a long time.
Keep in mind that mass Muta balls vs Bio were problematic since WoL and almost forced Terran to deny Zerg the ability to mass them up, which just isn't fun to play since you're effectively on a timer.
The Mutalisks I remember, all the way up to HotS were flocks (starting around 10) that constantly harassed the mineral line, forcing out turrets. Add-ons and anything not covered with turrets could be harassed. They almost nullify tanks due to their regen, allowing them to snipe a tank and regen any damage from marine fire. Trying to mass up tank/thor against it won't happen fast enough. Once the flock got large enough that turrets became useless, I was constantly forced to send units back to deal with them. Proper Mutalisk use was hell to deal with.
Cyclones do not counter Mutalisks. At all. I really find it weird that anyone would mention that when the Mutalisk can either just snipe said Cyclone, or just fly away and out of range. Unless you constantly leave your Mutalisks flying in their range I fail to see how Cyclones counter Mutalisks. Also, at 150/150 for one Cyclone, how many Cyclones are you really expecting vs the number of Mutalisks? Is 10+ Cyclones a thing I've missed?
Liberators work in large numbers, kinda similar to tanks or phoenixes.
However, Zerg can pump out 8-10 Mutalisks once the Spire is finished whereas Terran can only produce two at a time from a Reactor Starport. Now I do agree that Liberator splash + marines covering underneath would pose a problem for Mutalisks, but how is that bad? Is Terran not allowed to have a mobile composition that can deal with Mutalisks?
Is it really bad if Terran can come up with something that Mutalisks can't directly engage with a few Banelings thrown in?
I haven't heard a lot of Zerg cries about Phoenixes with range nullifying Mutalisks in PvZ.
Keep in mind that in order to pump out double Liberator, no Medivacs are being produced unless a second Starport is added or you're going Mech. In both cases you'd need a ton of gas just for that alone.
To counter, we haven't seen any decent Siege Tank use (other than *maybe* a few Mech games) against Zerg since HotS and no-one really seems to care about that, despite how great it was to see Ling/Bane/Muta trying to dance around Marine/Tank/Medivac. Vipers turn Siege Tanks a lot more useless than Liberators do Mutalisks.
Still, we're at the start of LotV and all sides are trying new things and figuring out the new meta.
I would not be surprised if Zergs develop strategies that make early/mid massing of Liberator dangerous, allowing Mutalisks to roam around in that period. Also, it is really bad that at some point you might have to transition out of mutas because the Terran added a lot of units that can deal with them?
At any rate, let's give it time and a lot of replays/tournaments before we start calling Mutalisks useless.
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Can mutas not magicbox liberators? Someone who has tried chime in.
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On November 18 2015 04:20 HugoBallzak wrote:
Can mutas not magicbox liberators? Someone who has tried chime in.
This doesn't really matter because Liberators are mobile enough to make the magic box useless. It works well on Thors because they're slow as shit, but if you magic boxed over Liberators they can simply move away and pick off Mutas.
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For a minute I thought I was in the b.net forums.
I love that terran has the liberator personally, as a zerg player it actually make my life easier. Liberators are exp, and easy to counter with a few corupters, or even ravagers, and ravagersare extremely fun.
Mutas have always been my favorite unit, and theyre ok against a few libs, but its a risk because terran can so easily mass libs, its just silly to go muta and potentially waste all those resources. Just because a unit is fun, doesnt mean it needs to be viable in every matchup.
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On November 18 2015 02:29 Little-Chimp wrote:
Mutas just needed another terran counter. Marines, turrets, widow mines, and Thor just wasn't enough lmao.
This was my reaction when blizzard explained why they created the liberator haha.
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mutas force the terran to stay at home and build turrets while you buy time for the units that will kill 100 marines, also if you use them to pick off structures you make the terran totally aware that if their out on the map army doesnt take care of your army the base trade will be real and they will lose every thing, not to mention that they are great for cutting off reinforcements. Downside, you lose 16+ mutas to a hand full of marines . .which you will! Its GG
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I feel like mutas are garbage now for anything other than harass.
Pump a few mutas, get the Terran on the back foot, have them spend cash on turrets, save yourself from drops (this is the big thing for me lately).
Other than that, pfff... good luck in LotV. Mutas vs. a Terran army belonging to a competent player are trash.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
On November 18 2015 14:39 Mjolnir wrote:
I feel like mutas are garbage now for anything other than harass.
Pump a few mutas, get the Terran on the back foot, have them spend cash on turrets, save yourself from drops (this is the big thing for me lately).
Other than that, pfff... good luck in LotV. Mutas vs. a Terran army belonging to a competent player are trash.
muta was always bad fighter, mostly mobile harass unit. Just in sc2 with zerg eco they can outnumber enemy.
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On November 18 2015 03:42 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 03:25 FireCake wrote:
Mutalisks are very expensive but they used to be good because they allowed zergs to defend against drops and do some damage (they force the terran player to make some turrets) all the time.
Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec.
In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight.
But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs.
So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it.
Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH... Thanks for your input! Two questions: -You say mutalisks are bad against drops now because of the medivac upgrade. Are you seeing the medivac upgrade researched in most of your games? I haven't seen a lot of LotV TvZ's but I thought that upgrade was still pretty rare (though not as rare as Caduceus Reactor) -Given that corruptors would be the obvious alternative to mutalisks, aren't mutas still the better choice for defending drops? Or do you go for something else entirely to defend drops, since mutas are now a bad investment?
-The best terrans use this upgrade in late game which allow them to drop without any risk in late game and thus the zerg can never attack because as soon as he moves there are 4 medivacs loading in all his bases that he can never clean with his mutalisks.
-Corruptors are useless to defend drops too, they are too slow. Good terrans players always drop and attack in the same time and thus you need your corruptors in the big fight, not to chase drops.
The new spell of corruptors is also very very bad, the terran player can lift his buildings and the spell does no damage... And the cooldown is soooooooooo long...
I am experimenting things but i really don't know how a zerg player can win a macro game against terran. Ultralisks are good against bio on open fields but it is not enough to grab a win.
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On November 18 2015 17:46 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 03:42 ChristianS wrote:On November 18 2015 03:25 FireCake wrote:
Mutalisks are very expensive but they used to be good because they allowed zergs to defend against drops and do some damage (they force the terran player to make some turrets) all the time.
Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec.
In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight.
But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs.
So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it.
Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH... Thanks for your input! Two questions: -You say mutalisks are bad against drops now because of the medivac upgrade. Are you seeing the medivac upgrade researched in most of your games? I haven't seen a lot of LotV TvZ's but I thought that upgrade was still pretty rare (though not as rare as Caduceus Reactor) -Given that corruptors would be the obvious alternative to mutalisks, aren't mutas still the better choice for defending drops? Or do you go for something else entirely to defend drops, since mutas are now a bad investment? -The best terrans use this upgrade in late game which allow them to drop without any risk in late game and thus the zerg can never attack because as soon as he moves there are 4 medivacs loading in all his bases that he can never clean with his mutalisks. -Corruptors are useless to defend drops too, they are too slow. Good terrans players always drop and attack in the same time and thus you need your corruptors in the big fight, not to chase drops. The new spell of corruptors is also very very bad, the terran player can lift his buildings and the spell does no damage... And the cooldown is soooooooooo long... I am experimenting things but i really don't know how a zerg player can win a macro game against terran. Ultralisks are good against bio on open fields but it is not enough to grab a win.
Huh, sorry to hear it. Well thanks for the response, and good luck solving the TvZ late game!
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I play in diamond and mutas are very hard to use right now. Liberators wreck them and good terrans will pressure with aa in their army before you can amass enough mutas. 8 mutas cost 1000 / 1000 including the spire. Against competent terrans you wil not do eneough damage with those mutas to justify this expense. Also, corruptors are much better at killing terran flying shit and staying alive in the process because of their range and heavy armor. They can't chase drops but they can at least damage the medivacs which will make further droping risky. And you don't need as many corruptors as mutas, which means less gas spent, which means faster hive. And hive is how you beat terrans in the lategame.
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On November 17 2015 12:28 Heyjoray wrote:
Why exactly does it has to be a risk going for Mutalisks against Terran? Arent Mutalisks one of the units with the highest skill ceiling? Playing Mutalisks in hots was already quite a task: You can do alot of damage, but you can also lose your entire flock in 2 seconds. Against stuff that is mostly stationary. Why does the Liberator has to be a thing? Arent Marines, Thors and Mines already good counter units? Why the fuck should Zergs prefer Corrupter over Mutalisks? I liked Mutalisks.
To answer this directly. For me the Liberator is the best new unit for Terran, just because of its Anti-Mutalisk role.
That you can loose your whole army within 2 seconds is not an argument besides you are playing toss. If you were careful, you rarely lost a mutalisk.
Marines and thors are only good counters if the zerg tried to use the mutas in a direct engagement, which is often not necessary. The task as a terran player was, to force the zerg to use the mutas in that way, because they don't trade effectively in direct engagements.
But on larger maps it was really risky to move out of your base, because you can't have enough army at home that defends 3 bases against 30 mutas and deal damage to the zerg main army.
Why do you think Zerg was the only race that massed an harassment unit. Because, if played correctly, it was immortal.
You can still harass with mutas, because they move faster than liberators, you just can't move over a cliff anymore and have your peace.
And you should prefer Corrupter as AA and Mutalisk as harass.
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I think this is more of a case of terrans actually having a good counter to mutas finally. The previous "counters" of terran to mutas were pretty terrible to be honest. Turrets, widow mines and thors could only ever zone mutas at best.
As others have said, once the t gets alot of liberators it is pretty hard to keep your mutas alive, so corrupters start being more useful. It is pretty much the same dynamic as in pvz with phoenix v muta, where you also need to corrupters after the p gets up to 7+ phoenix, if you even want to continue going air. If you are dissatisfied with mutas v liberators you must logically be against the phoenix / muta interaction as well.
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People who are saying "lol mutas get countered by everything" are wrong and I'll explain why. Marines are countered by banelings, ultralisks, ravagers, lurkers, fungal, broodlords but you still see them used, because they are a core unit.
Mutalisks are fine the way they are, problem is Ravagers are just better right now and everyone will use them over mutas until ravagers get..toned down. Everyone is using Roach/Ravager playstyle and it's rare to see mutalisks these days.
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP.
Whole argument in this thread that mutas suck because "terran has too many answers" is just wrong.
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On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote:
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP.
Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units.
Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking.
You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend.
Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks.
Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless.
Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights.
Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced
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On November 18 2015 20:49 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote:
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced
You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong.
Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing.
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On November 18 2015 17:46 FireCake wrote:
The new spell of corruptors is also very very bad, the terran player can lift his buildings and the spell does no damage... And the cooldown is soooooooooo long...
If they lift their buildings, the corruptors will be able to attack the flying buildings.
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EPT
