EPTI still don't understand: Mutalisks against Terran
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
I don't see any imbalance in their air strength though, Vikings are terrible vs Mutalisks without Thor or Marine support, the Mutalisks can almost always at least catch Liberators in defense mode and catch a quick kill or two. If your still losing Mutalisks to mines then it's purely a micro issue bro. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On November 17 2015 12:31 Beelzebub1 wrote: Mutalisks are fine in the match up, you just can't engage with even numbers using Mutalisks, you pretty much can't do it with Corruptors either you need a numerical advantage. I don't see any imbalance in their air strength though, Vikings are terrible vs Mutalisks without Thor or Marine support, the Mutalisks can almost always at least catch Liberators in defense mode and catch a quick kill or two. If your still losing Mutalisks to mines then it's purely a micro issue bro. Why am i watching so many zergs playing Corrupter instead of mutalisks? Are the pro zergs really that bad? Frankly enough, iam alright with being just as bad | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
corruptors are much harder to take out than mutas are, they also have longer range that is extremely useful when taking down liberators AND you can morph them into BLs later | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On November 17 2015 12:57 EonuS wrote: because mutalisks get destroyed by liberator + marine/mine/thor, while corruptors do not and it's no more complicated than that. On top of that, quick spire builds don't work anymore on high level because you need fast 3rd hatchery for production and economy against terrran which wasn't as necessary in HoTS corruptors are much harder to take out than mutas are, they also have longer range that is extremely useful when taking down liberators AND you can morph them into BLs later Oh man, the question wasnt: "Why are corrupter better against liberator?". The question was: "Why should we prefer a slow dull unit over a fast paced unit? | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On November 17 2015 13:04 Heyjoray wrote: Oh man, the question wasnt: "Why are corrupter better against liberator?". The question was: "Why should we prefer a slow dull unit over a fast paced unit? if you're that pedantic about it: - terran just got a mobile unit that is DESIGNED to counter mutalisk while already having plenty of natural ways to deal with it from previous games - mutas are not cost efficient in small numbers and there are plenty of builds that can strike at a timing where you don't have the critical mass of mutas to be aggressive with them - current high-level meta revolves around terran being the aggressor and zerg being the defender because of how economy changed zerg gameplay and to clarify, my reply was directed to this question Why am i watching so many zergs playing Corrupter instead of mutalisks? Are the pro zergs really that bad? Frankly enough, iam alright with being just as bad | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On November 17 2015 13:13 EonuS wrote: if you're that pedantic about it: - terran just got a mobile unit that is DESIGNED to counter mutalisk while already having plenty of natural ways to deal with it from previous games - mutas are not cost efficient in small numbers and there are plenty of builds that can strike at a timing where you don't have the critical mass of mutas to be aggressive with them - current high-level meta revolves around terran being the aggressor and zerg being the defender because of how economy changed zerg gameplay and to clarify, my reply was directed to this question -Your clearly the one being pedantic, he was getting to the heart of the actual question. -The rest of your post explains why mutalisks are logically not favoured, which was not the question being asked. So let me be the third person to attempt this: Why was the game designed in such a way, as to exclude units conducive to the game being fun--in this particular case mutalisks not being used--? Grasp? | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On November 17 2015 13:26 Dazed_Spy wrote: -Your clearly the one being pedantic, he was getting to the heart of the actual question. -The rest of your post explains why mutalisks are logically not favoured, which was not the question being asked. So let me be the third person to attempt this: Why was the game designed in such a way, as to exclude units conducive to the game being fun--in this particular case mutalisks not being used--? Grasp? to avoid any further misconceptions: and to clarify, my reply was directed to this question | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
If it's the former, then liberators weren't added specifically to make mutalisks bad in the matchup. They were added because they're cool units with a lot of interesting strategy and interactions. Frequently a consequence of adding a unit is that the units it does well against become more popular, and the units it does badly against, less. But Blizzard simply can't keep every fun unit viable just because people think they're fun. The strategy simply isn't so top-down as that. Starcraft is cool partly because the strategy is figured out organically by the players, and unless there's a balance issue, Blizzard tries to stay out of it. One consequence of that is that if the current meta isn't totally to your liking, you don't get to feel personally victimized by Blizzard. If you're just whining that your favorite unit isn't popular right now, I sympathize. I think ghosts and tanks are awesome, and for most of HotS, I got very little of either. It's unfortunate, but that's how things work sometimes. You don't get to choose what to play against, and just because a strategy is fun doesn't mean it's viable. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On November 17 2015 14:03 ChristianS wrote: To clarify, what are you advocating? Are you saying liberators should be removed? Or are you just whining that your favorite unit isn't very popular right now? If it's the former, then liberators weren't added specifically to make mutalisks bad in the matchup. They were added because they're cool units with a lot of interesting strategy and interactions. Frequently a consequence of adding a unit is that the units it does well against become more popular, and the units it does badly against, less. But Blizzard simply can't keep every fun unit viable just because people think they're fun. The strategy simply isn't so top-down as that. Starcraft is cool partly because the strategy is figured out organically by the players, and unless there's a balance issue, Blizzard tries to stay out of it. One consequence of that is that if the current meta isn't totally to your liking, you don't get to feel personally victimized by Blizzard. If you're just whining that your favorite unit isn't popular right now, I sympathize. I think ghosts and tanks are awesome, and for most of HotS, I got very little of either. It's unfortunate, but that's how things work sometimes. You don't get to choose what to play against, and just because a strategy is fun doesn't mean it's viable. So whats left? Roach ravager or ling bane corrupter for lotv? | ||
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ETisME
12364 Posts
I just want to see what the game is like when it settle down | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On November 17 2015 15:23 Lunareste wrote: That's for the players to decide. If you're so gung-ho about Mutalisks being viable then you should figure out how to make them viable. You act like as if i'm asking for Swarm Host to be viable again | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
But i see the OPs point about a more boring unit like the corrupter being necessary now for Zerg to deal with air units. Muta has been a core unit of Zerg since the beginning and now its not. Time will tell on this as its way too early to pass judgment on any unit at present | ||
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Timelog
Netherlands57 Posts
On November 17 2015 15:09 Heyjoray wrote: So whats left? Roach ravager or ling bane corrupter for lotv? - Ling/Hydra/Lurker/Ultra - Roach/Hydra/Lurker - Ling/Ravager - ect. There is enough you can do. Also, muta are still very much viable depending on your style and what the Terran does. People, including pros, are mostly experimenting a lot currently with builds. Don't forget the game is extremely new, and most pros barely touched LotV on any serious level during Beta due to WCS. Also, corruptors are pretty fun units now imo. With the caustic spray ability they are finally a unit that can do something more then only shoot air units. On November 17 2015 15:49 Heyjoray wrote: You act like as if i'm asking for Swarm Host to be viable again Vibe used to do a Lurker/SH build that made SH pretty string. I believe PiG also was experimenting with it. So in certain builds they are viable ^.^ | ||
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BeStFAN
483 Posts
mutalisk | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On November 17 2015 16:52 Timelog wrote: - Ling/Hydra/Lurker/Ultra - Roach/Hydra/Lurker - Ling/Ravager - ect. There is enough you can do. Also, muta are still very much viable depending on your style and what the Terran does. People, including pros, are mostly experimenting a lot currently with builds. Don't forget the game is extremely new, and most pros barely touched LotV on any serious level during Beta due to WCS. Also, corruptors are pretty fun units now imo. With the caustic spray ability they are finally a unit that can do something more then only shoot air units. Vibe used to do a Lurker/SH build that made SH pretty string. I believe PiG also was experimenting with it. So in certain builds they are viable ^.^ Oh yeah, lurker against Terran. Watched vibe and pig playing them, both of them ditched Lurker quickly. Pig spends like 20+ minutes being the terrans bitch, defending and watching him expand. I also havent seen a single lurker in about half a year in a pro game. I also played them myself. They suck so badly against terran. Its nothing but awkward. Especially after they got nerfed yet again. Waiting two and a half minutes on a bad tech isnt worth it. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
The actual reason that the the liberator was "needed" was this, terran needed a new unit and Blizzard was totally stumped with what to give T. T as a race was alread well rounded but needed another unit that would add something, thats why, there's not really any other deep meaning behind it. T could use (did not need but could use) a hard-counter against massive numbers of mutas, the thought behind this is that it stops Z from going all out mass mutas because of liberators being a hardcounter. The problem this spawned is that the complete picture with marines, mines, thors and liberators makes it foolish to go for any amount of mutas basically, its just too many threats. The intent was only to stiffle the mass muta strategy but it ended upp effecting much more. | ||
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MChrome
Netherlands201 Posts
I mean, there must be a reason why almost every single ZvT in HotS had a muta flock, but im sure it wasnt because mutas were extremely effective against terrans. There must be another reason  | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On November 17 2015 15:49 Heyjoray wrote: You act like as if i'm asking for Swarm Host to be viable again You act like units have some 'value' in being used more than others. There isn't, nor is there a reason people 'care' if you want to use mutas. Neither does the balance of the game. There is a reason there is a meta in strategy games. It wins more often. If you want SH, Muta, or whatever else to be a part of the meta then by all means, develop a build around them and go to korea and play in the GSL dawg. ;D | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8304 Posts
That, or blizzard count keep tinkering with the corrupter to make it an interesting unit. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On November 17 2015 15:09 Heyjoray wrote: So whats left? Roach ravager or ling bane corrupter for lotv? Again, what are you advocating? Are you arguing that liberators should be removed? Mutas should be buffed? Terran should be removed as a race, thus avoiding the problem entirely? I think I'm at least clear that you're arguing that Blizzard should change the game, and not just mourning the loss of mutalisks or asking TL for viable strats in which mutalisks can still be used. But without an actual proposal, there's not really anything to talk about. Yes, mutalisks are cool. Yes, they're pretty weak in the present meta. What do you want to do about it? | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
Clearly, you are not making questions expecting a correct answer, so just say whatever you meant if you do mean something. If you have nothing to say or don't have a clear idea about what you want to discuss, then don't start a thread. If what you want to say is not a question, do not present it as a question. Its ok, an actual discussion started, but everyone should think a little bit more before starting a thread to make TL an even better place. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3348 Posts
 , we'd end in a situation where Mutas beat everything 1v1, but has incredible counters.. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
Mutalisk get hard countered by anti-air units and suddenly it's a sin. While I personally believe Liberators are OP at the moment, it isn't because Zerg can't go Mutalisk. It's because they're massable on reactor and their power scaling is too sharp because of it, but in small numbers Liberators are actually quite weak. They also kinda make Vikings worthless. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On November 17 2015 18:35 -Kyo- wrote: You act like units have some 'value' in being used more than others. There isn't, nor is there a reason people 'care' if you want to use mutas. Neither does the balance of the game. There is a reason there is a meta in strategy games. It wins more often. If you want SH, Muta, or whatever else to be a part of the meta then by all means, develop a build around them and go to korea and play in the GSL dawg. ;D yeah corruptors are lame as fuck, there I said it muta/ling/bling vs 4M was the best thing HotS had to offer and Blizzard just decided to remove it | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On November 17 2015 23:09 Ej_ wrote: Yes. Of course there was a value. Mutas are a lot more interesting unit than corruptors. Can someone really not see it?yeah corruptors are lame as fuck, there I said it muta/ling/bling vs 4M was the best thing HotS had to offer and Blizzard just decided to remove it | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3348 Posts
On November 17 2015 20:03 Destructicon wrote: The reverse is also true, if you want mutas to have softer counters they can always nerf their speed and regen ^^ lets hope! | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On November 17 2015 20:03 Destructicon wrote: The reverse is also true, if you want mutas to have softer counters they can always nerf their speed and regen ^^ Fine by me, lower their price and reduce their stats. And/or increase their supply cost. Make them a less massable unit. Would also fix the Muta switch on PvZ. And why the fuck shouldnt Muta be viable against shit like speed medivacs? | ||
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
but on the other hand watched whatever content there was to see (streams, basetrade beta tourneys and ofc the last shoutcraft). **in addition, i'm exluding carriers, BC and BL from the hereby analysis, as reaching tier 3+ based army was ralativley rare in hots, and will probably be even more rare in lotv. while i do miss mutas, i see no problem with them being neglected in favor of corrupters (and on a side note i think muta still has place in ZvZ). as some have stated, it can be compared to tanks and ghost seeing little use in hots. but i do have a certain problem with the current situation of zerg composition: blizz worked long and hard to make mech viable, to a point that terran could have played either bio or mech against zerg with relatively the same win rate, and mech even surpassing bio in popularity at some point. protoss always had the option to go either robotic tech or templar tech (in addition with gateway units ofc), and had very usefull air units which saw a lot of use (carriers exluded). zerg on the other hand, has lots of units that are very rarely being produced: in hots alone we had the SH (since it's rightfull nerf), infestors (maybe allow full health infested marines to hatch from dmged eggs?), corrupers (only used as a counter to something, not as a unit that can be used offensively), nydus... so, lotv will hopefully see more nydus usage, but in exchange for the added utility of corrupets zerg "lost" the mutas, lurkers are not very usefull right now, infestors and SH remain the same... even the ravager being morphed from the old roaches add to the feel that zerg is the race with the lesser versatility, less tech branches, while terran and protoss seems to be a bit more "fresh" following their changes in lotv. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
In unskilled hands mutalisks were useless. In skilled hands they looked almost imbalanced. But now they seem useless in all three matchups! Lotv degraded mutas to expensive suprise units. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
And this is something I just honestly don't know, but is there any particular reason you couldn't magic box and kill 6 liberators the way you can with 6 thors? The attacks seem pretty comparable. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
On November 18 2015 02:26 ChristianS wrote: Isn't everyone being a bit quick to write mutas off TvZ? Yeah, they don't do great in a straight-up fight against liberators. But first of all it was always the mutalisk thing to avoid direct engagements and attack where your opponent isn't, and beyond that, is the liberator attack really that much more powerful against them than, say, the thor attack? And this is something I just honestly don't know, but is there any particular reason you couldn't magic box and kill 6 liberators the way you can with 6 thors? The attacks seem pretty comparable. Kind of yeah, but since liberators have the same speed as Mutas not really, you can still use them, but magoc moxing and stuff doenst really work, because Liberators have the same speed. But lets wait for dreamhack and see how the Pro's handle it | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec. In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight. But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs. So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it. Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH... | ||
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SeCReTT
31 Posts
there is a reason right now pros are trying new stuff wich is great! be open to explore new corners of the game maybe in the end corruptours are a bad idea maybe not, but if we always stay with the same you might not find the beautyfull wonders of this game...try re-calling FruitDealer .. no one used infestors and he make them shine and won a GSL and there was a time infestors were so popular with BL-infestor comp..who would thought about that on those times ? | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On November 18 2015 03:25 FireCake wrote: Mutalisks are very expensive but they used to be good because they allowed zergs to defend against drops and do some damage (they force the terran player to make some turrets) all the time. Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec. In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight. But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs. So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it. Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH... Thanks for your input! Two questions: -You say mutalisks are bad against drops now because of the medivac upgrade. Are you seeing the medivac upgrade researched in most of your games? I haven't seen a lot of LotV TvZ's but I thought that upgrade was still pretty rare (though not as rare as Caduceus Reactor) -Given that corruptors would be the obvious alternative to mutalisks, aren't mutas still the better choice for defending drops? Or do you go for something else entirely to defend drops, since mutas are now a bad investment? | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Yes you can't engage them directly, that has been true since WoL. Where ever I have Turrets and Marines, the Mutalisks just dance around them. Widow Mines are static and you need three to fire at the exact same time on a flock of bunched up Mutalisks. Overseers revealing them and tanking the missiles still works just fine. Thors are slow as hell and were the only real 'mobile' *counter* to Mutalisks for a long time. Keep in mind that mass Muta balls vs Bio were problematic since WoL and almost forced Terran to deny Zerg the ability to mass them up, which just isn't fun to play since you're effectively on a timer. The Mutalisks I remember, all the way up to HotS were flocks (starting around 10) that constantly harassed the mineral line, forcing out turrets. Add-ons and anything not covered with turrets could be harassed. They almost nullify tanks due to their regen, allowing them to snipe a tank and regen any damage from marine fire. Trying to mass up tank/thor against it won't happen fast enough. Once the flock got large enough that turrets became useless, I was constantly forced to send units back to deal with them. Proper Mutalisk use was hell to deal with. Cyclones do not counter Mutalisks. At all. I really find it weird that anyone would mention that when the Mutalisk can either just snipe said Cyclone, or just fly away and out of range. Unless you constantly leave your Mutalisks flying in their range I fail to see how Cyclones counter Mutalisks. Also, at 150/150 for one Cyclone, how many Cyclones are you really expecting vs the number of Mutalisks? Is 10+ Cyclones a thing I've missed? Liberators work in large numbers, kinda similar to tanks or phoenixes. However, Zerg can pump out 8-10 Mutalisks once the Spire is finished whereas Terran can only produce two at a time from a Reactor Starport. Now I do agree that Liberator splash + marines covering underneath would pose a problem for Mutalisks, but how is that bad? Is Terran not allowed to have a mobile composition that can deal with Mutalisks? Is it really bad if Terran can come up with something that Mutalisks can't directly engage with a few Banelings thrown in? I haven't heard a lot of Zerg cries about Phoenixes with range nullifying Mutalisks in PvZ. Keep in mind that in order to pump out double Liberator, no Medivacs are being produced unless a second Starport is added or you're going Mech. In both cases you'd need a ton of gas just for that alone. To counter, we haven't seen any decent Siege Tank use (other than *maybe* a few Mech games) against Zerg since HotS and no-one really seems to care about that, despite how great it was to see Ling/Bane/Muta trying to dance around Marine/Tank/Medivac. Vipers turn Siege Tanks a lot more useless than Liberators do Mutalisks. Still, we're at the start of LotV and all sides are trying new things and figuring out the new meta. I would not be surprised if Zergs develop strategies that make early/mid massing of Liberator dangerous, allowing Mutalisks to roam around in that period. Also, it is really bad that at some point you might have to transition out of mutas because the Terran added a lot of units that can deal with them? At any rate, let's give it time and a lot of replays/tournaments before we start calling Mutalisks useless. | ||
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On November 18 2015 04:20 HugoBallzak wrote: Can mutas not magicbox liberators? Someone who has tried chime in. This doesn't really matter because Liberators are mobile enough to make the magic box useless. It works well on Thors because they're slow as shit, but if you magic boxed over Liberators they can simply move away and pick off Mutas. | ||
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VorGirL
72 Posts
I love that terran has the liberator personally, as a zerg player it actually make my life easier. Liberators are exp, and easy to counter with a few corupters, or even ravagers, and ravagersare extremely fun. Mutas have always been my favorite unit, and theyre ok against a few libs, but its a risk because terran can so easily mass libs, its just silly to go muta and potentially waste all those resources. Just because a unit is fun, doesnt mean it needs to be viable in every matchup. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 18 2015 02:29 Little-Chimp wrote: Mutas just needed another terran counter. Marines, turrets, widow mines, and Thor just wasn't enough lmao. This was my reaction when blizzard explained why they created the liberator haha. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
Pump a few mutas, get the Terran on the back foot, have them spend cash on turrets, save yourself from drops (this is the big thing for me lately). Other than that, pfff... good luck in LotV. Mutas vs. a Terran army belonging to a competent player are trash. | ||
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i_am_Nite
Russian Federation66 Posts
On November 18 2015 14:39 Mjolnir wrote: I feel like mutas are garbage now for anything other than harass. Pump a few mutas, get the Terran on the back foot, have them spend cash on turrets, save yourself from drops (this is the big thing for me lately). Other than that, pfff... good luck in LotV. Mutas vs. a Terran army belonging to a competent player are trash. muta was always bad fighter, mostly mobile harass unit. Just in sc2 with zerg eco they can outnumber enemy. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On November 18 2015 03:42 ChristianS wrote: Thanks for your input! Two questions: -You say mutalisks are bad against drops now because of the medivac upgrade. Are you seeing the medivac upgrade researched in most of your games? I haven't seen a lot of LotV TvZ's but I thought that upgrade was still pretty rare (though not as rare as Caduceus Reactor) -Given that corruptors would be the obvious alternative to mutalisks, aren't mutas still the better choice for defending drops? Or do you go for something else entirely to defend drops, since mutas are now a bad investment? -The best terrans use this upgrade in late game which allow them to drop without any risk in late game and thus the zerg can never attack because as soon as he moves there are 4 medivacs loading in all his bases that he can never clean with his mutalisks. -Corruptors are useless to defend drops too, they are too slow. Good terrans players always drop and attack in the same time and thus you need your corruptors in the big fight, not to chase drops. The new spell of corruptors is also very very bad, the terran player can lift his buildings and the spell does no damage... And the cooldown is soooooooooo long... I am experimenting things but i really don't know how a zerg player can win a macro game against terran. Ultralisks are good against bio on open fields but it is not enough to grab a win. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On November 18 2015 17:46 FireCake wrote: -The best terrans use this upgrade in late game which allow them to drop without any risk in late game and thus the zerg can never attack because as soon as he moves there are 4 medivacs loading in all his bases that he can never clean with his mutalisks. -Corruptors are useless to defend drops too, they are too slow. Good terrans players always drop and attack in the same time and thus you need your corruptors in the big fight, not to chase drops. The new spell of corruptors is also very very bad, the terran player can lift his buildings and the spell does no damage... And the cooldown is soooooooooo long... I am experimenting things but i really don't know how a zerg player can win a macro game against terran. Ultralisks are good against bio on open fields but it is not enough to grab a win. Huh, sorry to hear it. Well thanks for the response, and good luck solving the TvZ late game! | ||
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Sadiv
11 Posts
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apocom
Germany10 Posts
On November 17 2015 12:28 Heyjoray wrote: Why exactly does it has to be a risk going for Mutalisks against Terran? Arent Mutalisks one of the units with the highest skill ceiling? Playing Mutalisks in hots was already quite a task: You can do alot of damage, but you can also lose your entire flock in 2 seconds. Against stuff that is mostly stationary. Why does the Liberator has to be a thing? Arent Marines, Thors and Mines already good counter units? Why the fuck should Zergs prefer Corrupter over Mutalisks? I liked Mutalisks. To answer this directly. For me the Liberator is the best new unit for Terran, just because of its Anti-Mutalisk role. That you can loose your whole army within 2 seconds is not an argument besides you are playing toss. If you were careful, you rarely lost a mutalisk. Marines and thors are only good counters if the zerg tried to use the mutas in a direct engagement, which is often not necessary. The task as a terran player was, to force the zerg to use the mutas in that way, because they don't trade effectively in direct engagements. But on larger maps it was really risky to move out of your base, because you can't have enough army at home that defends 3 bases against 30 mutas and deal damage to the zerg main army. Why do you think Zerg was the only race that massed an harassment unit. Because, if played correctly, it was immortal. You can still harass with mutas, because they move faster than liberators, you just can't move over a cliff anymore and have your peace. And you should prefer Corrupter as AA and Mutalisk as harass. | ||
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MyrionSC
Denmark140 Posts
As others have said, once the t gets alot of liberators it is pretty hard to keep your mutas alive, so corrupters start being more useful. It is pretty much the same dynamic as in pvz with phoenix v muta, where you also need to corrupters after the p gets up to 7+ phoenix, if you even want to continue going air. If you are dissatisfied with mutas v liberators you must logically be against the phoenix / muta interaction as well. | ||
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
Mutalisks are fine the way they are, problem is Ravagers are just better right now and everyone will use them over mutas until ravagers get..toned down. Everyone is using Roach/Ravager playstyle and it's rare to see mutalisks these days. Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Whole argument in this thread that mutas suck because "terran has too many answers" is just wrong. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote: Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced | ||
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On November 18 2015 20:49 FireCake wrote: Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong. Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing. | ||
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Shivatron
6 Posts
On November 18 2015 17:46 FireCake wrote: The new spell of corruptors is also very very bad, the terran player can lift his buildings and the spell does no damage... And the cooldown is soooooooooo long... If they lift their buildings, the corruptors will be able to attack the flying buildings. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On November 18 2015 21:00 Beastyqt wrote: You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong. Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing. -Look all the top terrans, their best MU is TvZ. And please look at the liberator, this unit is broken. -1 spore per base doesn't prevent banshee harass, the banshee still do damage and it doesn't involve more micro than hold position the banshee out of the range of the spore. You can also kill drones moving from 1 base to an other, prevent creep spread and get a lot of map control. | ||
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On November 18 2015 21:41 FireCake wrote: -Look all the top terrans, their best MU is TvZ. And please look at the liberator, this unit is broken. -1 spore per base doesn't prevent banshee harass, the banshee still do damage and it doesn't involve more micro than hold position the banshee out of the range of the spore. You can also kill drones moving from 1 base to an other, prevent creep spread and get a lot of map control. What? lol, which Terrans are those? Every foreign Terran hates TvZ and Solar just wiped the floor with Korean Terrans, what are you talking about? Flash lost yesterday or two days ago 0-2 to iasonu as well. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On November 18 2015 21:49 Beastyqt wrote: What? lol, which Terrans are those? Every foreign Terran hates TvZ and Solar just wiped the floor with Korean Terrans, what are you talking about? Flash lost yesterday or two days ago 0-2 to iasonu as well. Which had nothing to do with flash finishing his third before iasanu even started his, right? | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On November 18 2015 21:49 Beastyqt wrote: What? lol, which Terrans are those? Every foreign Terran hates TvZ and Solar just wiped the floor with Korean Terrans, what are you talking about? Flash lost yesterday or two days ago 0-2 to iasonu as well. Please, you know that the shoutcraft sandisk tournament was a joke. Most of the players didn't even practice on lotv. Solar played for months on lotv when it was still on beta, he was playing every daily tournaments, the only relevant game that could have happened was Solar vs Byun... And I heard it didn't happen because Byun was hurt. During the beta Solar lost many times against many korean terran in the leifeng cup (a daily chinese tournament), i am sure you can still check the brackets of this tournament if you don't trust me. edit : i didn't see the games of Flash yesterday. However Lilbow who train so hard on lotv also lost against iasonu. Maybe iasonu is very good ? i didn't have the chance to play him yet. | ||
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Dirty_Durt
United States7 Posts
On November 17 2015 12:28 Heyjoray wrote: Why exactly does it has to be a risk going for Mutalisks against Terran? Arent Mutalisks one of the units with the highest skill ceiling? Playing Mutalisks in hots was already quite a task: You can do alot of damage, but you can also lose your entire flock in 2 seconds. Against stuff that is mostly stationary. Why does the Liberator has to be a thing? Arent Marines, Thors and Mines already good counter units? Why the fuck should Zergs prefer Corrupter over Mutalisks? I liked Mutalisks. Also, corruptors attack building now which makes them insanely more useful and caust efficient. Zerg has plenty of amazing units. Liberators is definitely needed, especially with the ultra buff. Those things are insanely powerful. | ||
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Dirty_Durt
United States7 Posts
On November 18 2015 03:25 FireCake wrote: Mutalisks are very expensive but they used to be good because they allowed zergs to defend against drops and do some damage (they force the terran player to make some turrets) all the time. Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec. In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight. But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs. So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it. Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH... 4 liberators can't kill a wholeeee flock of Mutas. A flock being what? Around 12? No way. Especially if they split their Mutas a bit. Liberators also have terribleeee range, so ur forced to fly face first into the Zerg army which can just get them killed. Also, Terran has to be careful because if they build too many liberators for a flock of Mutas, the liberators can easily become way less effective to zergs instant ability to switch army composition. What if you go Muta/infestor? Have the liberators chase ur flock then just fungal all the liberators. Be creative. Terrans can have a lot of complaints about Zerg units. Early ravagers are insanely powerful and can just sniper liberators easy. Ultras are crazy powerful and viper new parasitic bomb can instantly kill every air unit like that! | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany901 Posts
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apocom
Germany10 Posts
On November 18 2015 22:28 FireCake wrote: Please, you know that the shoutcraft sandisk tournament was a joke. Most of the players didn't even practice on lotv. Solar played for months on lotv when it was still on beta, he was playing every daily tournaments, the only relevant game that could have happened was Solar vs Byun... And I heard it didn't happen because Byun was hurt. During the beta Solar lost many times against many korean terran in the leifeng cup (a daily chinese tournament), i am sure you can still check the brackets of this tournament if you don't trust me. edit : i didn't see the games of Flash yesterday. However Lilbow who train so hard on lotv also lost against iasonu. Maybe iasonu is very good ? i didn't have the chance to play him yet. You bring up a stream to support your argument, but when someone uses a tournament as example it's not valid? | ||
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Martinni
Canada169 Posts
- Make liberator require techlab - Remove liberator Air-to-Air AOE There's already so many units that counters air play, terrans don't need a new one. | ||
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