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On November 18 2015 21:00 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 20:49 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote:
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong. Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing.
-Look all the top terrans, their best MU is TvZ. And please look at the liberator, this unit is broken.
-1 spore per base doesn't prevent banshee harass, the banshee still do damage and it doesn't involve more micro than hold position the banshee out of the range of the spore. You can also kill drones moving from 1 base to an other, prevent creep spread and get a lot of map control.
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On November 18 2015 21:41 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 21:00 Beastyqt wrote:On November 18 2015 20:49 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote:
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong. Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing. -Look all the top terrans, their best MU is TvZ. And please look at the liberator, this unit is broken. -1 spore per base doesn't prevent banshee harass, the banshee still do damage and it doesn't involve more micro than hold position the banshee out of the range of the spore. You can also kill drones moving from 1 base to an other, prevent creep spread and get a lot of map control.
What? lol, which Terrans are those? Every foreign Terran hates TvZ and Solar just wiped the floor with Korean Terrans, what are you talking about?
Flash lost yesterday or two days ago 0-2 to iasonu as well.
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On November 18 2015 21:49 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 21:41 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 21:00 Beastyqt wrote:On November 18 2015 20:49 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote:
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong. Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing. -Look all the top terrans, their best MU is TvZ. And please look at the liberator, this unit is broken. -1 spore per base doesn't prevent banshee harass, the banshee still do damage and it doesn't involve more micro than hold position the banshee out of the range of the spore. You can also kill drones moving from 1 base to an other, prevent creep spread and get a lot of map control. What? lol, which Terrans are those? Every foreign Terran hates TvZ and Solar just wiped the floor with Korean Terrans, what are you talking about? Flash lost yesterday or two days ago 0-2 to iasonu as well.
Which had nothing to do with flash finishing his third before iasanu even started his, right?
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On November 18 2015 21:49 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 21:41 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 21:00 Beastyqt wrote:On November 18 2015 20:49 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote:
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong. Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing. -Look all the top terrans, their best MU is TvZ. And please look at the liberator, this unit is broken. -1 spore per base doesn't prevent banshee harass, the banshee still do damage and it doesn't involve more micro than hold position the banshee out of the range of the spore. You can also kill drones moving from 1 base to an other, prevent creep spread and get a lot of map control. What? lol, which Terrans are those? Every foreign Terran hates TvZ and Solar just wiped the floor with Korean Terrans, what are you talking about? Flash lost yesterday or two days ago 0-2 to iasonu as well.
Please, you know that the shoutcraft sandisk tournament was a joke. Most of the players didn't even practice on lotv.
Solar played for months on lotv when it was still on beta, he was playing every daily tournaments, the only relevant game that could have happened was Solar vs Byun... And I heard it didn't happen because Byun was hurt.
During the beta Solar lost many times against many korean terran in the leifeng cup (a daily chinese tournament), i am sure you can still check the brackets of this tournament if you don't trust me.
edit : i didn't see the games of Flash yesterday. However Lilbow who train so hard on lotv also lost against iasonu. Maybe iasonu is very good ? i didn't have the chance to play him yet.
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On November 17 2015 12:28 Heyjoray wrote:
Why exactly does it has to be a risk going for Mutalisks against Terran? Arent Mutalisks one of the units with the highest skill ceiling? Playing Mutalisks in hots was already quite a task: You can do alot of damage, but you can also lose your entire flock in 2 seconds. Against stuff that is mostly stationary. Why does the Liberator has to be a thing? Arent Marines, Thors and Mines already good counter units? Why the fuck should Zergs prefer Corrupter over Mutalisks? I liked Mutalisks.
Also, corruptors attack building now which makes them insanely more useful and caust efficient. Zerg has plenty of amazing units. Liberators is definitely needed, especially with the ultra buff. Those things are insanely powerful.
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On November 18 2015 03:25 FireCake wrote:
Mutalisks are very expensive but they used to be good because they allowed zergs to defend against drops and do some damage (they force the terran player to make some turrets) all the time.
Now when a zerg player start making mutalisk, the mutalisks become useless 2 min later because the terran player will have 4 liberators which can chase mutalisks and kill any number of mutalisks. So the zerg can't harass more than 30-60 sec.
In fights 1-2 shots of liberators and 1 shot of thors and your whole group of mutalisks is dead so you can't use it in fight.
But you might say that mutalisks are still good to defend drops... NO, because of the new medivac upgrades that allows the medivac to boost almost all the time, mutalisks can never chase medivacs.
So mutalisks can be played as a surprise on 2-3 bases but they have to do critical damages to be worth it.
Mutalisks are almost as useful as SH...
4 liberators can't kill a wholeeee flock of Mutas. A flock being what? Around 12? No way. Especially if they split their Mutas a bit. Liberators also have terribleeee range, so ur forced to fly face first into the Zerg army which can just get them killed. Also, Terran has to be careful because if they build too many liberators for a flock of Mutas, the liberators can easily become way less effective to zergs instant ability to switch army composition. What if you go Muta/infestor? Have the liberators chase ur flock then just fungal all the liberators. Be creative. Terrans can have a lot of complaints about Zerg units. Early ravagers are insanely powerful and can just sniper liberators easy. Ultras are crazy powerful and viper new parasitic bomb can instantly kill every air unit like that!
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Mutas have a high skill ceiling because it is hard to know when there is an Opening to make a harassment unit that 95% "Hit and Run" and only 5% good for direct engagements. Micro is rather ez.
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On November 18 2015 22:28 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 21:49 Beastyqt wrote:On November 18 2015 21:41 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 21:00 Beastyqt wrote:On November 18 2015 20:49 FireCake wrote:On November 18 2015 20:37 Beastyqt wrote:
Another reason is, mutalisk is a harass unit. Every harass unit died a bit when lotv came out, banshees aren't used anymore, widow mine drops aren't a thing in TvP anymore, hellion drop isn't used, protosses don't use DT rush as much or oracle harass. Not to mention if you actually want something to kill drops, corruptors are way better since you don't have the time to harass in lotv as much. Mutas can die in few seconds if you aren't paying attention, while corruptors..don't die because of their armor and HP. Look ForGG stream, he plays mass reapers or banshee while they are both "harass" units. Every harass unit of terrans are shining in lotv because they are good at harassing and also very good at defending and/or attacking. You mentionned that roach/ravager are strong, you can play banshee, banshee destroys this composition because nothing shoot air, and you can also harass with banshee. You can also play tank drop against roach/ravager, it allows you to harass, attack and defend. Now let's compare liberators and mutalisks. Zerg player makes like 8 mutalisk, the terran player makes one turret per base which prevents any harass, then make 4 liberators and mutalisks are completly useless. Terran player makes 1 liberator (which cost like 5 times less than 8 mutalisk), the zerg player can't prevent the harass by putting 1 spore per base, once the zerg gets air units the terran player save his liberator and then the liberator stay very useful to chase/harass or attacking in big fights. Liberators are more versatile than wol infestor, mutalisks might come back when liberators will be balanced You are probably the only Zerg from bronze to pro level that thinks Terran is stronger than Z, or that liberators are too strong. Terran opens banshee, zerg see's it and lols because he's free to take 4 bases for free and then have 50 supply more 5min later, while making one spore per base and completely shut down banshees. Banshee's are good to defend roach ravager early attacks yes, but they are god awful for harassing. -Look all the top terrans, their best MU is TvZ. And please look at the liberator, this unit is broken. -1 spore per base doesn't prevent banshee harass, the banshee still do damage and it doesn't involve more micro than hold position the banshee out of the range of the spore. You can also kill drones moving from 1 base to an other, prevent creep spread and get a lot of map control. What? lol, which Terrans are those? Every foreign Terran hates TvZ and Solar just wiped the floor with Korean Terrans, what are you talking about? Flash lost yesterday or two days ago 0-2 to iasonu as well. Please, you know that the shoutcraft sandisk tournament was a joke. Most of the players didn't even practice on lotv. Solar played for months on lotv when it was still on beta, he was playing every daily tournaments, the only relevant game that could have happened was Solar vs Byun... And I heard it didn't happen because Byun was hurt. During the beta Solar lost many times against many korean terran in the leifeng cup (a daily chinese tournament), i am sure you can still check the brackets of this tournament if you don't trust me. edit : i didn't see the games of Flash yesterday. However Lilbow who train so hard on lotv also lost against iasonu. Maybe iasonu is very good ? i didn't have the chance to play him yet.
You bring up a stream to support your argument, but when someone uses a tournament as example it's not valid?
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Here's my 2c
- Make liberator require techlab
- Remove liberator Air-to-Air AOE
There's already so many units that counters air play, terrans don't need a new one.
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EPT
