|
On November 17 2015 15:49 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 15:23 Lunareste wrote:
That's for the players to decide. If you're so gung-ho about Mutalisks being viable then you should figure out how to make them viable. You act like as if i'm asking for Swarm Host to be viable again
You act like units have some 'value' in being used more than others. There isn't, nor is there a reason people 'care' if you want to use mutas. Neither does the balance of the game. There is a reason there is a meta in strategy games. It wins more often. If you want SH, Muta, or whatever else to be a part of the meta then by all means, develop a build around them and go to korea and play in the GSL dawg. ;D
|
I have to say I agree with OP. Further reducing the effect of mutalisks seems silly. While there have been many changes to the defender mode of liberator, I wonder if it's time to start looking at the "regular" mode of liberator.
That, or blizzard count keep tinkering with the corrupter to make it an interesting unit.
|
To me Libs look extremely strong vs ground and pretty good vs air. So in a standard game there's little reason to not make them. As long as that's true, Mutas should see less play than Corruptors in vT. Nothing wrong with that, as long as all matchups are balanced and somewhat fun to play/watch.
|
On November 17 2015 15:09 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 14:03 ChristianS wrote:
To clarify, what are you advocating? Are you saying liberators should be removed? Or are you just whining that your favorite unit isn't very popular right now?
If it's the former, then liberators weren't added specifically to make mutalisks bad in the matchup. They were added because they're cool units with a lot of interesting strategy and interactions. Frequently a consequence of adding a unit is that the units it does well against become more popular, and the units it does badly against, less. But Blizzard simply can't keep every fun unit viable just because people think they're fun. The strategy simply isn't so top-down as that. Starcraft is cool partly because the strategy is figured out organically by the players, and unless there's a balance issue, Blizzard tries to stay out of it. One consequence of that is that if the current meta isn't totally to your liking, you don't get to feel personally victimized by Blizzard.
If you're just whining that your favorite unit isn't popular right now, I sympathize. I think ghosts and tanks are awesome, and for most of HotS, I got very little of either. It's unfortunate, but that's how things work sometimes. You don't get to choose what to play against, and just because a strategy is fun doesn't mean it's viable. So whats left? Roach ravager or ling bane corrupter for lotv?
Again, what are you advocating? Are you arguing that liberators should be removed? Mutas should be buffed? Terran should be removed as a race, thus avoiding the problem entirely? I think I'm at least clear that you're arguing that Blizzard should change the game, and not just mourning the loss of mutalisks or asking TL for viable strats in which mutalisks can still be used. But without an actual proposal, there's not really anything to talk about. Yes, mutalisks are cool. Yes, they're pretty weak in the present meta. What do you want to do about it?
|
4713 Posts
To be honest, mass muta was always a huge issue in bio vs Z and to a smaller extent in mech vs Z if the muta player could reach a critical mass of them. There was no real answer for terran at that point. The entire strategy revolved around preventing Zerg from reaching that critical mass, which is lame and sometimes leads to problems if prevention can't be done (think BL/Infestor). Now Terrans have a good unit that can actually counter a big mass of mutas. And its not like Liberators are as hard a counter as ranged phoenix, they require quite a bit of micro.
|
Please, when you start a thread make sure you have a point and make yourself clear. A bunch of rhetorical questions is a bad idea.
Clearly, you are not making questions expecting a correct answer, so just say whatever you meant if you do mean something. If you have nothing to say or don't have a clear idea about what you want to discuss, then don't start a thread. If what you want to say is not a question, do not present it as a question.
Its ok, an actual discussion started, but everyone should think a little bit more before starting a thread to make TL an even better place.
|
They can always buff Mutalisk regeneration and speed even more  , we'd end in a situation where Mutas beat everything 1v1, but has incredible counters..
|
4713 Posts
The reverse is also true, if you want mutas to have softer counters they can always nerf their speed and regen ^^
|
Tanks have been getting hard countered by virtually everything in SC2 and we're expected to deal with it.
Mutalisk get hard countered by anti-air units and suddenly it's a sin.
While I personally believe Liberators are OP at the moment, it isn't because Zerg can't go Mutalisk. It's because they're massable on reactor and their power scaling is too sharp because of it, but in small numbers Liberators are actually quite weak. They also kinda make Vikings worthless.
|
So, summed up, it's bad (for the game) have to choose between mutas and corruptors in lotv
|
On November 17 2015 18:35 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 15:49 Heyjoray wrote:On November 17 2015 15:23 Lunareste wrote:
That's for the players to decide. If you're so gung-ho about Mutalisks being viable then you should figure out how to make them viable. You act like as if i'm asking for Swarm Host to be viable again You act like units have some 'value' in being used more than others. There isn't, nor is there a reason people 'care' if you want to use mutas. Neither does the balance of the game. There is a reason there is a meta in strategy games. It wins more often. If you want SH, Muta, or whatever else to be a part of the meta then by all means, develop a build around them and go to korea and play in the GSL dawg. ;D
yeah corruptors are lame as fuck, there I said it
muta/ling/bling vs 4M was the best thing HotS had to offer and Blizzard just decided to remove it
|
On November 17 2015 23:09 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 18:35 -Kyo- wrote:On November 17 2015 15:49 Heyjoray wrote:On November 17 2015 15:23 Lunareste wrote:
That's for the players to decide. If you're so gung-ho about Mutalisks being viable then you should figure out how to make them viable. You act like as if i'm asking for Swarm Host to be viable again You act like units have some 'value' in being used more than others. There isn't, nor is there a reason people 'care' if you want to use mutas. Neither does the balance of the game. There is a reason there is a meta in strategy games. It wins more often. If you want SH, Muta, or whatever else to be a part of the meta then by all means, develop a build around them and go to korea and play in the GSL dawg. ;D yeah corruptors are lame as fuck, there I said it muta/ling/bling vs 4M was the best thing HotS had to offer and Blizzard just decided to remove it Yes. Of course there was a value. Mutas are a lot more interesting unit than corruptors. Can someone really not see it?
|
On November 17 2015 20:03 Destructicon wrote:
The reverse is also true, if you want mutas to have softer counters they can always nerf their speed and regen ^^
lets hope!
|
On November 17 2015 20:03 Destructicon wrote:
The reverse is also true, if you want mutas to have softer counters they can always nerf their speed and regen ^^
Fine by me, lower their price and reduce their stats. And/or increase their supply cost. Make them a less massable unit. Would also fix the Muta switch on PvZ. And why the fuck shouldnt Muta be viable against shit like speed medivacs?
|
*just to be clear, i'm commenting mainly as a spectator of lotv, as i almost didn't play it,
but on the other hand watched whatever content there was to see (streams, basetrade beta tourneys and ofc the last shoutcraft).
**in addition, i'm exluding carriers, BC and BL from the hereby analysis, as reaching tier 3+ based army was ralativley rare in hots, and will probably be even more rare in lotv.
while i do miss mutas, i see no problem with them being neglected in favor of corrupters (and on a side note i think muta still has place in ZvZ).
as some have stated, it can be compared to tanks and ghost seeing little use in hots.
but i do have a certain problem with the current situation of zerg composition:
blizz worked long and hard to make mech viable, to a point that terran could have played either bio or mech against zerg with relatively the same win rate, and mech even surpassing bio in popularity at some point.
protoss always had the option to go either robotic tech or templar tech (in addition with gateway units ofc), and had very usefull air units which saw a lot of use (carriers exluded).
zerg on the other hand, has lots of units that are very rarely being produced:
in hots alone we had the SH (since it's rightfull nerf), infestors (maybe allow full health infested marines to hatch from dmged eggs?), corrupers (only used as a counter to something, not as a unit that can be used offensively), nydus...
so, lotv will hopefully see more nydus usage, but in exchange for the added utility of corrupets zerg "lost" the mutas, lurkers are not very usefull right now, infestors and SH remain the same...
even the ravager being morphed from the old roaches add to the feel that zerg is the race with the lesser versatility, less tech branches, while terran and protoss seems to be a bit more "fresh" following their changes in lotv.
|
I understand your point. Its a shame that we cant use mutalisks anymore. It was a beautiful unit which scaled very well with skill.
In unskilled hands mutalisks were useless. In skilled hands they looked almost imbalanced. But now they seem useless in all three matchups! Lotv degraded mutas to expensive suprise units.
|
I'm a terran and I agree. mutalisks an excellent unit that scaled extremely well with skill. Adding hard counters to such a unit certainly isn't a good move.
|
Isn't everyone being a bit quick to write mutas off TvZ? Yeah, they don't do great in a straight-up fight against liberators. But first of all it was always the mutalisk thing to avoid direct engagements and attack where your opponent isn't, and beyond that, is the liberator attack really that much more powerful against them than, say, the thor attack?
And this is something I just honestly don't know, but is there any particular reason you couldn't magic box and kill 6 liberators the way you can with 6 thors? The attacks seem pretty comparable.
|
Mutas just needed another terran counter. Marines, turrets, widow mines, and Thor just wasn't enough lmao.
|
On November 18 2015 02:26 ChristianS wrote:
Isn't everyone being a bit quick to write mutas off TvZ? Yeah, they don't do great in a straight-up fight against liberators. But first of all it was always the mutalisk thing to avoid direct engagements and attack where your opponent isn't, and beyond that, is the liberator attack really that much more powerful against them than, say, the thor attack?
And this is something I just honestly don't know, but is there any particular reason you couldn't magic box and kill 6 liberators the way you can with 6 thors? The attacks seem pretty comparable.
Kind of yeah, but since liberators have the same speed as Mutas not really, you can still use them, but magoc moxing and stuff doenst really work, because Liberators have the same speed.
But lets wait for dreamhack and see how the Pro's handle it
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
