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Macro mechanics are important in an RTS. If we lower the skill ceiling further, there'll never be a player standing out.
Take a look at Hearthstone. There is no best player as all the top 500 players are equally good at making the correct decisions. The only skill in Hearthstone is building decks, as the game play skill ceiling is super low.
If we get a low skill ceiling in sc2, the only thing deciding games will be the luck of the build you choose. Rock paper scissors for real, and that's not an RTS.
If anything, make the macro mechanics harder and suddenly skilled players will start to shine.
To summarize: make the game harder, not easier
[EDIT: I realize that this will intimidate new players, but it will also attract hardcore players who are looking for a competitive game with a super high skill ceiling. A game in which you can become the BEST. I rather have that than some super popular, super easy game.]
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i was saying this before, will say now
the remove macro mechanics patch was a calculated move to do a very big change (something that everyone was supposedly asking for) to prove this is not working and then revert back to what it was (to say - see, and you thought you know it better then us). Problem is they didn't go entire way with the changes and didn't balance the change. But even then it was OK for a lot of players to not have the macro mechanics. So overall its a failed attempt to be smart, quite pathetic.
PS. i wish there were no injects and mules in the game. They make so little sense, its ridiculous. I do like the chrono ability though.
why would you complicate your economy structure (the mineral patches, the macro abilities, the mineral collection rate, the gold bases) if this is done at the cost of dealing with existing and new units in the game (like wtf is with disruptor) and with the army skirmishes improvements.
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On September 18 2015 16:50 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 16:44 Bohemond wrote:On September 18 2015 16:25 Nerchio wrote:On September 18 2015 16:23 HomeWorld wrote:On September 18 2015 16:03 Nerchio wrote:I wish Blizzard understood that Mule is one of the worst mechanics in the game  comebacks from 5 scvs or boost from 200 to 3000 income should not be possible You seem to not understand how important the mule is for terran to keep up economy wise with the other two races. The last 3 patches showed it: first patch - mule removed - terran was unplayable - up to 30% or even less income compared to the other races, not to mention, you lose workers, you're dead (that was true for protoss too at that point) second patch - the auto mules - terran economy was okayish, still, late game income was not so ok third(current patch) - back to HotS stuff, nothing to comment on it I understand that but they should work around it and not revert it back to Heart of the swarm, if they keep things like they are now the game will not last more than 2 years after release. The funny thing is I didn't see much complaining by Terran players about the mule removal. Most of the frustration seemed to be about the lack of income because Blizzard didn't compensate for it in any way. I'd be very surprised if the majority of Terran players would object to the mule being removed as long as there were changes made to keep Terran economy in line with the other races. And it really doesn't appear to me that most Zerg and Protoss players are fans of mules. Seems like a bit of a no-brainer to get rid of the thing... There are hundreds of possible solutions where you cannot sacrifice SCVs but Blizzard is stubborn with MULEs. They need to find their balls and start doing decisions. E.g. - remove MULE, add a spell on OC that for some energy will overclock SCVs in the target area so they can mine faster. This way you have to have SCVs and you can have higher income for a period of time. Just a stupid idea off the top of my head right now.
While I appreciate you agreeing with me, there this thing I keep seeing people say that bothers me. SCV sacking happens in a great minority of games, and the Terran lategame army is weaker than the other two races so it's necessary. It's not like SCV sacking is this epidemic that ruins every TvX game.
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Everything is better that autocast, at least for zergs, so I am happy with this. I can play the game again  .
Edit: Of course I would like it the most if they removed injects completely, increased the hatchery larva production rate and then gave the queen a zerg chrono boost. With this you still have to look at your base as a zerg and top players can gain an advantage over lesser players when using it well, but it's not as punishing when you don't use it compared to inject.
But I guess that would be too much since the beta is coming to an end, still anything is better than automated injects, so I'm happy with this almost HotS version for now.
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When I woke up and saw the balance changes I was a little worried, but after trying out the new inject I actually like it. I inject with individual queen hotkeys so it works perfectly for my style.
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After playing the new patch, I hate it. I wish they would just removal all macro mechanics, remove the mothership core, make the queen an upgrade to hatchery and have the queen be stationary on top of the hatch which places a creep tumor beside the hatchery, anything. Remove all gimmicks, this is so ridiculous....
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
To summarize: make the game harder, not easier
Why do you want to make the game harder by adding chrono boost rather than making it harder in other ways?
You need better mechanics to play Legacy without macro boosters than you ever needed to play WOL and it seems to me like there are more interesting ways to increase that difficulty yet further.
I agree with you, go make the game harder - but chrono boost and mules doesn't seem to be the way to accomplish that.
In fact, when we didn't have chrono or mules the midgame lasted a lot longer than it does now and games turned into multitasking based clusterfucks more often, almost never becoming a 200/200 stalemate. Part of that is due to 25% less resources per base, too (though less resources or not, DH seems like the better solution..)
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On September 18 2015 17:13 Cyro wrote:Why do you want to make the game harder by adding chrono boost rather than making it harder in other ways? You need better mechanics to play Legacy without macro boosters than you ever needed to play WOL and it seems to me like there are more interesting ways to increase that difficulty yet further. I agree with you, go make the game harder - but chrono boost and mules doesn't seem to be the way to accomplish that. In fact, when we didn't have chrono or mules the midgame lasted a lot longer than it does now and games turned into multitasking based clusterfucks more often, almost never becoming a 200/200 stalemate
Chronoboost per se doesn't really do much, but injects are very important. They are the macro-cycle for zergs.
Although if you ask me, having to manually make units from each barracks/factory/gateway/hatchery would have been the best, in order to make it harder.
People speak about making "positioning" and such the 'hard part' of the game. What people don't realize is that the HARD part about the game should be doing all the macro stuff while STILL microing and having good positioning.
Hydra said it best;
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1) So this is the masterplan : slowly going back to HotS mechanics. I can't say I disagree sadly with the 10 nov release, but I'll always wish they'd have tried those bold changes at the freakin beginning of the beta. I'm ready to bet next week chrono boost gets back to its HotS state, which was 100 times better, maybe with slight tweaks to be able to say "look we changed it anyway".
2) Don't buff cyclones, or at least don't make it an all-around massable units. It should be pretty weak vs something, presumably vs ground.
3) Liberator is nerfed, at last. That'll probably do the trick. Same for roach burrow speed.
4) I don't like the evo requirement for drops that will just allow stupid shenanigans again.
5) Pylon overcharge will always be retarded unless it's only on Pylons linked to a warpgate / Nexus.
Overall : a nice preparatory patch for the "fine tuning" period that is coming. Mechanics go back to their HotS state and retarded things get the nerf axe. I expect changes to the adept and warp prism next week. It's sad testing changes to macro mechanics didn't come to their minds until 5 months of beta were gone.
EDIT : I don't necessarily agree with Hydra's answer to HuK. Pros will always be able to make differences, with or without macro mechanics (there weren't any in BW though the clumsy engine and UI limitations made the game far easier to differentiate oneself in).
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
Chronoboost per se doesn't really do much, but injects are very important
Zerg is different. They get 60% of their production from queens so i don't think it's directly comparable to chrono or mule/scan at all. Have the discussion about terran and protoss first!
3) Liberator is nerfed, at last. That'll probably do the trick.
People are just gonna research it then reactor some more out and push vs toss as always. It's only nerfed badly for super early game
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On September 18 2015 16:58 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
i was saying this before, will say now
the remove macro mechanics patch was a calculated move to do a very big change (something that everyone was supposedly asking for) to prove this is not working and then revert back to what it was (to say - see, and you thought you know it better then us). Problem is they didn't go entire way with the changes and didn't balance the change. But even then it was OK for a lot of players to not have the macro mechanics. So overall its a failed attempt to be smart, quite pathetic.
PS. i wish there were no injects and mules in the game. They make so little sense, its ridiculous. I do like the chrono ability though.
why would you complicate your economy structure (the mineral patches, the macro abilities, the mineral collection rate, the gold bases) if this is done at the cost of dealing with existing and new units in the game (like wtf is with disruptor) and with the army skirmishes improvements.
Fully agree... There was no attempt to balance T without mule (and the fact that they removed it without adding any sort of adjustment was beyond shortsighted - can you imagine if they removed injects without even considering some additional balance change?)!
IMO macro mechanics ruin the fundamental balance of expanding and taking bases as the primary form of resource collection. Yes, expanding means more hatches to inject / mules / cb... but the way they boost the economy isn't as linear or natural as it is without.
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On September 18 2015 17:33 Cyro wrote:People are just gonna research it then reactor some more out and push vs toss as always. It's only nerfed badly for super early game
I'm already glad they admit there is a problem with the Liberator. If it turns out further nerfs are needed, they'll probably proceed.
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Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
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On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote:
So, I downloaded Wc3 instead.
It is Act of Aggression for me.
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On September 18 2015 17:43 -Archangel- wrote:It is Act of Aggression for me.
If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good.
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On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote:
Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
yeah, not if injects happen at 25 or 30 energy...
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Who's afraid of macro-mechanics?
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On September 18 2015 17:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 17:43 -Archangel- wrote:On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote:
So, I downloaded Wc3 instead. It is Act of Aggression for me. If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good.
For people that like HotS, these last changes to LotV are normal. HotS lovers have no reason to not play LotV.
It is people like me that wanted basic design bullshit from WoL and HotS to be finally fixed in LotV that are giving up now.
I think I will teach my daughter to play BW instead. At least with hard macro it had fun units and abilities.
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On September 18 2015 17:20 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 17:13 Cyro wrote:To summarize: make the game harder, not easier Why do you want to make the game harder by adding chrono boost rather than making it harder in other ways? You need better mechanics to play Legacy without macro boosters than you ever needed to play WOL and it seems to me like there are more interesting ways to increase that difficulty yet further. I agree with you, go make the game harder - but chrono boost and mules doesn't seem to be the way to accomplish that. In fact, when we didn't have chrono or mules the midgame lasted a lot longer than it does now and games turned into multitasking based clusterfucks more often, almost never becoming a 200/200 stalemate Chronoboost per se doesn't really do much, but injects are very important. They are the macro-cycle for zergs. Although if you ask me, having to manually make units from each barracks/factory/gateway/hatchery would have been the best, in order to make it harder. People speak about making "positioning" and such the 'hard part' of the game. What people don't realize is that the HARD part about the game should be doing all the macro stuff while STILL microing and having good positioning. Hydra said it best; https://twitter.com/ROOThydra/status/644759506107260928
Hydra doesn't see less viewership, less tournaments and less prizemoney.. there are enough other things to be a pro..
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On September 18 2015 17:54 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 17:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 18 2015 17:43 -Archangel- wrote:On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote:
So, I downloaded Wc3 instead. It is Act of Aggression for me. If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good. For people that like HotS, these last changes to LotV are normal. HotS lovers have no reason to not play LotV. It is people like me that wanted basic design bullshit from WoL and HotS to be finally fixed in LotV that are giving up now. I think I will teach my daughter to play BW instead. At least with hard macro it had fun units and abilities.
It's sad tbh, even with its undeniable flaws SC2 is infinitely superior to any current strategy game in terms of depth and longetivity.
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EPT
