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On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click.
Possible Counterplays:
Blink away, load into a dropship, feedback, make disruptor "invulnerable".
Counterplay to fungal:
Error 404 file not found.
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On April 05 2015 02:09 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range.. Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast. I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that.
In that case, lockdown isn't point and click. Its has 8 range. Fungal growth had 9 in wol.
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On April 05 2015 02:10 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Possible Counterplays: Blink away, load into a dropship, feedback, make disruptor "invulnerable". Counterplay to fungal: Error 404 file not found.
It's funny that you are saying that feedback is a counter to lockdown, but it's not a counter to fungle... Also situational counterplays to fungle were - snipe, EMP, siege tanks. But that is not even the point.
On April 05 2015 02:17 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 02:09 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range.. Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast. I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that. In that case, lockdown isn't point and click. Its has 8 range. Fungal growth had 9 in wol.
It's, as I said, single target point and click spell. IMO the worst of all spells. Hotkey, click on unit, watch it happen.
Let's not turn this discussion into "fungle vs lockdown" one. As I said, lockdown spells like Fungle Growth, Lockdown, Maelstrom and others are in my opinion dumb and not exciting. I hope that I will never see such spell making it into the game.
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Concept: unarmored assassin/special forces unit with psychic abilities. Ideal for special tactics and hit & run guerrilla operations.
(...)unarmored (...) with psychic abilities
hp: 25.
shields: 50
He's unarmored, so why more hp than a marine? Shields shows his psychic abilities are giving him durability. Because shields regenerate he can hit & run easier. Why should our assassin be a tank?
(...)assassin (...) ideal for hit & run guerrilla operations
Remove snipe
Ground/air attack damage 10 (unchanged)
Damage vs light/psionic 40 (doubled from 20 previously, can't one-shot workers)
Attack speed halved
special attack vs psionic: stuns target for 1 second cumulative (assassin), and has feedback effect for 10 or 20 points. Costs energy per shot automatically.
Snipe is annoying to spam. We don't need so many activated abilities that do nothing but bonus damage. This weakens ghosts vs non-targets, and gives them good bust damage for hit & run. Note that these stats make it a lousy choice in a deathball for its cost.
psychic abilities (...) for special tactics
-EMP removed (give it back to the science vessel/raven instead)
-cloak has set duration and cost, instead of being continuous. See banshees in Starbow for comparison.
-Mark: aoe attack, all psionic units hit become visible to the ghost units at double the normal range. Ghosts gain increased attack range vs these units for the duration. Effect lasts 20 seconds.
-C4: plant a cloaked bomb on a structure that detonates as the next unit is produced, damaging both. Detectable and killable. Or... let them plant a cloaked/killable nuke :D
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There is 3 changes I would like to see for the ghost to make it a more relavant unit.
1) Make the ghost cost more gas than minerals. All casters should be relatively gas heavy, also Terran needs a good gas dump when going bio. Change cost of ghost from 200/100 to 100/125.
2) Allow ghosts to use stim. This allows the ghost to keep with up with the rest of the bio army when it is kiting, which is extremely important for good micro.
3) Minor buff to nuke call down. Decrease nuke call down to 15 seconds and increase cast range from 10 to 12. This makes the nuke actually useful in a tactical situation.
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On April 05 2015 03:09 Loccstana wrote:
There is 3 changes I would like to see for the ghost to make it a more relavant unit.
1) Make the ghost cost more gas than minerals. All casters should be relatively gas heavy, also Terran needs a good gas dump when going bio. Change cost of ghost from 200/100 to 100/125.
2) Allow ghosts to use stim. This allows the ghost to keep with up with the rest of the bio army when it is kiting, which is extremely important for good micro.
3) Minor buff to nuke call down. Decrease nuke call down to 15 seconds and increase cast range from 10 to 12. This makes the nuke actually useful in a tactical situation.
Love ideas 1 + 2, but personally I would prefer the cost to be even more skewed, say 50/150 like for High Templar (that gas dump is soooo important for Terran going bio). The stim helps a lot with Zerg, as one of the silliest things ever is trying to use a ghost to emp/snipe Zerg units before an engagement when Zerg units by default are so much faster and therefore never allow this happen.
Your third suggestion I'm on the fence about just because nukes are SO powerful. It's basically game ending if you ever just land one nuke where intended (except in the case of super duper late game where nukes can be used for denying bases). I almost prefer to keep nukes out of competitive play as much as possible, would like a less drastic and more practical ability like lockdown or irradiate. Nukes can be fun though, and casual players love them, so it could be good for the game's exposure to keep them in.
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I think it's difficult to make the Nuke land faster, as that gives so little reaction time, but what you can do is half the time that Ghosts need to channel the Nuke. So that it is more guaranteed to land and makes it more certain the Ghost survives.
And Snipe needs to be replaced, or redesigned. Like Infested Terran it is too versatile and so if it's too powerful mass Ghosts/mass Infestors becomes a thing and if it's too weak, the unit is not used.
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On April 04 2015 12:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Not a big fan of the proposed new abilities, I think they are a bit too passive, while I feel the ghost should be more of an independent toolbox... The ghost is like an assassin/spy archetype, while those abilities feel more like they'd fit a medic or something. People who suggested reworks to snipe where it can be blocked by interceding units, maybe that could work (a la Caitlyn's ult in LoL, and I'm sure some dota character as well originally  ), though I think it would need an even bigger range in that case (maybe work like a siege tank where it has longer range than it has vision so you can benefit from scanning and long distance snipe). Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 11:03 CrazyBread92 wrote:
What if they were to remove snipe and give the ghost lockdown while moving emp over to raven? Lockdown is interesting and would help terran against warp prism harass a LOT I think. Bit worried it'd be too strong vs disruptors, although I guess it would create counter micro at least.
Holy hell it's Jinro. Where have you been, you beautiful, beautiful man.
Lockdown vs an immune disruptor would be interesting. Perhaps instead of actually locking it down, it just immediately triggers the explosion, giving a good microing player opportunity to mitigate damage with good aim, while giving the protoss the ability to get the disruptor out again and possibly still do some damage. It creates an ability that doesn't cause a hard counter while still giving both players opportunities for micro.
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Why not just make nuke a more straightforward spell? Reduce the cost, damage and cast time. Change snipe to a skill shot maybe?
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remove snipe, give back lockdown?
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Nuke would be so much more useful with +2 range. Have the nuke itself drop slowly, like in BW, and have it ping on the map only when it's dropping, similar to BW. Allow 2 nukes per Ghost Academy.
Current rendition of snipe is awful, would love to see a change to it. Bringing lockdown back would be sick. To Jinro's point, you could always make it so that Disrupter's "invulnerability" makes it invulnerable to lockdown as well!
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A good start would be to give the ghost perma cloak.
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On April 05 2015 02:19 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 02:10 404AlphaSquad wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Possible Counterplays: Blink away, load into a dropship, feedback, make disruptor "invulnerable". Counterplay to fungal: Error 404 file not found. It's funny that you are saying that feedback is a counter to lockdown, but it's not a counter to fungle... Also situational counterplays to fungle were - snipe, EMP, siege tanks. But that is not even the point. Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 02:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 02:09 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range.. Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast. I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that. In that case, lockdown isn't point and click. Its has 8 range. Fungal growth had 9 in wol. It's, as I said, single target point and click spell. IMO the worst of all spells. Hotkey, click on unit, watch it happen. Let's not turn this discussion into "fungle vs lockdown" one. As I said, lockdown spells like Fungle Growth, Lockdown, Maelstrom and others are in my opinion dumb and not exciting. I hope that I will never see such spell making it into the game.
You could make lockdown work like a seeker missile, if you micro the unit back it doesnt get hit, similiar how they have done it in starbow some time ago
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How about have the Ghost Academy start with one pre-built nuke ready to go. Subsequent nukes still cost the same and no other changes. That should encourage a little bit more nuke usage in pro play without making it's stats OP.
Also someone said reduce the Ghosts mineral cost, I like that idea.
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How about this.
Decrese ghost cost to 100/100
Incrase EMP cooldown to 10 seconds.
Increase nuke cost to 300/300
Increase nuke damage to 10 000
Give nuke fallout damage, slowly damaging units over time who enter the area within 1minute of explosion.
Now killing the ghost before the nuke lands is actually your goal, not just pulling units away.
Also ofcourse give ghost stim aswell. Makes no sense that they cant.
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Hmm, what if lockdown would be:
- AoE (with radius of storm for example or slightly bigger)
- cast on ground (as forcefield)
- visiually it would be a grenade which would blow after couple (2-5) of seconds and then start to apply effect (similarly to time warp in LotV) so is is possible to escape with mechanical units
- affects only ground mechanical units
- affected units cannot move, shoot or use abilities for some time (5-15 sec ?)
- 50-75 energy
- 7-10 range ?
Would allow for some positional play with bio against mech (lock down on group of tanks) and vs protoss before and during engagement -> forces to reposition colo/immo and stalkers.
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Why not give it the lockdown ability from BW? It would be perfect for disabling mechanical units.
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On April 18 2015 23:36 TurboDreams wrote:
Why not give it the lockdown ability from BW? It would be perfect for disabling mechanical units.
Ironically, that's what you'd think the EMP ability would be used for, heh.
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Ghosts are too cool to be played.
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EPT
