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On April 04 2015 07:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 03:35 royalroadweed wrote:
My suggestion is that when ghost do "hold fire" and holster their rifle, they move faster. This is the coolest suggestion I've seen thus far. +1 for this. == My own suggestions:
Snipe (might need to change the name on this since it's not really a snipe anymore) - Energy cost increased from 25 -> 75 - Damage increased from 25 (+25 to Psionic) -> 75 - Ground only. Cannot hit revealed burrowed units. - Snipe now does aoe line damage extending up to a range of 10. When activated it should have increased sensitivity making it difficult to aim. Also emits a red laser to allow the opponent to dodge, similar to how nukes show a tiny dot. EMP- Make this a projectile similar to fungal growth. Nukes- Arm silo increased from 1-> 2 nukes per academy - Damage reduced from 300 (+200 to buildings) -> 150 (+100 to buildings) - Nukes now leave behind a fallout aoe with a duration of 15 sec. Biological units take 10 damage/sec while in range.
I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability..
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I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability..
Yeh I always wondered why Sc2 didn't have any line-skillshots in the game. Its a unique type of micro that Blizzard has completely ignored and instead has added more click-and-spam stuff into the game.
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I really think the ghost needs a change. With the direction LOTV is headed in I really don't see too many scenarios in which you would build ghosts. Snipe is a beautiful ability but only if there are viable targets and right now there is only one unit in the game against which it is really useful.
On April 04 2015 18:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability.. Yeh I always wondered why Sc2 didn't have any line-skillshots in the game. Its a unique type of micro that Blizzard has completely ignored and instead has added more click-and-spam stuff into the game.
I think there is way more specific micro and anti micro involved with snipe than with a line based skill shot but we only really have those interactions in TvP with templars. In hindsight it was a really good change that blizzard nerfed snipe against most units but they didn't really bother to make it meaningful outside of tvp.
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On April 04 2015 18:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability.. Yeh I always wondered why Sc2 didn't have any line-skillshots in the game. Its a unique type of micro that Blizzard has completely ignored and instead has added more click-and-spam stuff into the game.
I think Hellions count as line skill shots, collosus also to a certain extent.
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I have thought about making ghost "the siegetank" meaning it can "sit" and therefore have a long range but only shoot where it aims(aka 90degrees).
So to be clear:
If you sit the ghost down and aim north, you can only shoot north 90degrees. If an enemy attacks from behind, the ghost cant do anything.
Could see something like this potentially be cool. Not necessarily on the ghost tho but maybe a new unit.
I think this could promote a new type of micro vs micro which isnt seen yet. Could be fun i guess.
Any fast thoughts about it? Sounds like shit?
Comment please.
EDIT:
Something i have dreamt about is marauder opening becoming viable again in Lotv but with micro for both sides(maybe remove the slow is needed) and than for terran to add a ghost academy at home and make some ghosts. Maybe they could be decent vs oracles for example and than work vs ground units decent to.
A new style of play. Anyway. Thats it for now.
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I think Hellions count as line skill shots, collosus also to a certain extent.
So to clarify, when i talk about skillshots its abilities that can be fully dodged (not auto-attacks).
I think there is way more specific micro and anti micro involved with snipe than with a line based skill shot but we only really have those interactions in TvP with templars. In hindsight it was a really good change that blizzard nerfed snipe against most units but they didn't really bother to make it meaningful outside of tvp.
I always felt the Ghost vs protoss was incredibly boring and you just kinda danced around with big armies without actually engaging. I much rather have abilites that have countermicro potential during engagements than these small dances that only serve to delay/prevent engagements from happening in the first place.
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So I guess you can change the snipe to the penetrator round used by raynor in the campaign?
Something that works similar to penetrator round but
- Opponent can see when the penetrator round is going to fire
- Only passes through light units, stopped by armored units (they take reduced damage instead) so any units behind armored units won't take damage
- Or can be changed such that it passes through biological units, but gets blocked by mechanical units but this will make it another anti-zerg ability
- High energy usage (around 75-100)? Damage can be balanced around it
- Passes through any units in range 10 or when it hits an armored unit first
This might have interesting interactions, now its not only about dodging the shots but also about positioning of the units. Now you can use ghost + cloak to go around harrassing bases effectively in late game(single shot can possibly destroy worker lines), and might see potential usage in engagements.
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On April 04 2015 21:21 Estancia wrote:
So I guess you can change the snipe to the penetrator round used by raynor in the campaign?
Something that works similar to penetrator round but
- Opponent can see when the penetrator round is going to fire
- Only passes through light units, stopped by armored units (they take reduced damage instead) so any units behind armored units won't take damage
- Or can be changed such that it passes through biological units, but gets blocked by mechanical units but this will make it another anti-zerg ability
- High energy usage (around 75-100)? Damage can be balanced around it
- Passes through any units in range 10 or when it hits an armored unit first
This might have interesting interactions, now its not only about dodging the shots but also about positioning of the units. Now you can use ghost + cloak to go around harrassing bases effectively in late game(single shot can possibly destroy worker lines), and might see potential usage in engagements.
I like this a lot. Then you would be forced to position your tanky armored units to protect your weaker ones even more. I think, though, the way you described it, it would be incredibly strong against ling-bane compositons, but it definitely has potential.
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Netherlands609 Posts
The lineshot could be very very powerful though, terran already has so much splash damage.
What if Ghost attacks would just ingore armour? Their shots always do full damage or something, it wouldn't make rushing a ghost for some special effect an issue, but they would be very strong late game.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2015 20:58 Foxxan wrote:
I have thought about making ghost "the siegetank" meaning it can "sit" and therefore have a long range but only shoot where it aims(aka 90degrees).
So to be clear:
If you sit the ghost down and aim north, you can only shoot north 90degrees. If an enemy attacks from behind, the ghost cant do anything.
Could see something like this potentially be cool. Not necessarily on the ghost tho but maybe a new unit.
I think this could promote a new type of micro vs micro which isnt seen yet. Could be fun i guess.
Any fast thoughts about it? Sounds like shit?
Comment please.
EDIT:
Something i have dreamt about is marauder opening becoming viable again in Lotv but with micro for both sides(maybe remove the slow is needed) and than for terran to add a ghost academy at home and make some ghosts. Maybe they could be decent vs oracles for example and than work vs ground units decent to.
A new style of play. Anyway. Thats it for now.
That's a cool idea, doesn't sound like it would fit into HotS terran, but HotS isnt LotV, and even if it doesn't end up fitting its still a cool idea 
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In WoL ghotsts were imbalanced. An army of them could snipe down a horde of ultraliskts before they could even reach them. I like what blizzard did, reducing the bio damage but increasing the psionic damage. They are good for sniping infestors (which we hardly see nowadyas) and vipers.
An EMP is always nice too. Drop 2 ghots, cloak them and emp queens so that zerg will have to struggle with getting larvas. Nuke is an awesome ability, and I wished we could see it more. I think ghosts might need a smaller cut on their price and people would start using them again. Let's say they could cost 100/100.
Edit: Lockdown?
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They should make nukes more affordable imo. Ghosts already can work well as anti-spellcasters, but once the opponent has no more spellcasters, they should have some other utility as well.
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On April 04 2015 21:49 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 21:21 Estancia wrote:
So I guess you can change the snipe to the penetrator round used by raynor in the campaign?
Something that works similar to penetrator round but
- Opponent can see when the penetrator round is going to fire
- Only passes through light units, stopped by armored units (they take reduced damage instead) so any units behind armored units won't take damage
- Or can be changed such that it passes through biological units, but gets blocked by mechanical units but this will make it another anti-zerg ability
- High energy usage (around 75-100)? Damage can be balanced around it
- Passes through any units in range 10 or when it hits an armored unit first
This might have interesting interactions, now its not only about dodging the shots but also about positioning of the units. Now you can use ghost + cloak to go around harrassing bases effectively in late game(single shot can possibly destroy worker lines), and might see potential usage in engagements. I like this a lot. Then you would be forced to position your tanky armored units to protect your weaker ones even more. I think, though, the way you described it, it would be incredibly strong against ling-bane compositons, but it definitely has potential.
I don't think terran will be able to get enough ghosts against a ling bling muta army in early mid game, and in small amounts speedlings and banelings which are fast shouldn't have trouble dodging snipes.
Or this may encourage zergs to add in small amounts of roaches to counter the snipes in mid game, and in late game adding in ultralisks will hard counter this ability because its armored, large and therefore can protect the lings, blings and hydras from the penetrator rounds. Then again ghosts can reposition themselves to fire at a better angle, etc.
Protoss shouldn't have much problem, especially with blink as you can sacrifice a stalker to save your line of zealots. It can be used against high templars too, in which case the warp prism will come in handy, or some decent split should do.
If it is too powerful mid game you can always make it a researchable ability.
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Heres my thoughs on the Ghost:
1) Snipe is one of the most boring abilities in the game. It is only really useful against psionic bio units (HT, Infestor, Viper, Ghost) because of low damage against anything else. And against spellcasters you can just as well use EMP.
2) EMP is an okay ability but hard to balance. Against Terran and Zerg you hardly ever need splash anti spellcaster abilities except if somebody was massing raven / banshee. Against Protoss its very powerful. We could just remove the shield draining
effect and make EMP drain all energy, then remove Snipe.
3) Nukes are costly, hardly ever hit, and require a micro and preparation. I would replace it with the following ability:
Remote Controlled Detonation Charge
Each ghosts comes trained with 1 of these bombs equiped. It can be placed on the ground (melee range), placing the charge and arming it takes 10 seconds. After the charge is placed the ghost can remotely detonate it at any point in time to deal area of effect damage. Charges are invisible units and can be destroyed if attacked.
This ability is kinda similar to nukes but more useful in my opinion. You can use them as mines and lure enemies within it. But only if the enemy does not have a detector with his army. You can also use them better for harassment by pre-placing them somewhere and waiting for workers to come by, perhaps when dropping one mineral line you can place such a charge at the other mineral line to kill more workers at once.
4) To make the ghost a more useful attack unit I would buff their attack range and damage. They are snipers, so give them a high attack range, like 9 or even 10.
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For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown.
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On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown.
How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free.
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Dont forget, ghosts are hightech in broodwar where as infestors are "low" tech.
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On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free.
It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play.
Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no.
I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click.
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On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click.
Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range..
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On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote:
For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play.
So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range..
Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast.
I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that.
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