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LotV and the Ghosts

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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Glorfindel!
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1815 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-03 16:11:52
April 03 2015 13:52 GMT
#1
I will start this thread with a quote from Liquipedia:

"The Ghost is a specialized infantry unit built from a Barracks with an attached Tech Lab once a Ghost Academy has been constructed. The Ghost stands as an Anti-Spellcaster unit and high damage versus Psionic and Light units. "


[image loading]

That sounds super cool - doesnt it?

Reality:
While focusing on even finding a new unit for Terran we often seem to forget to even discuss the Ghost. This specialized infantry unit is... hardly seeing any play what so ever.

I think we can count on one hand the number of games we have seen more than three ghosts in a game during this season of PL. The one time Terran seem to make Ghosts, they make 3 of them to bring with the boys push.

I find it sad that one of the cooler and more iconic units in Starcraft actually is a one match up one trick pony that nobody seem to notice.

Blizzard is currently trying to come up with ideas for new Terran units (they seem to struggle a lot with that) - meanwhile they are trying lots of new things on units, changing stats (hell the Ultralisk for an example), giving unused units abilities (eg. Infestor, Carrier).

And the ghost.. Just seem to remain useless.
Its a unit you pay 200/100 for - and you get a unit that hardly is better than a marine in most situations.

Topics do discuss:
Should the Ghost me mentioned more often when balance is being discussed?
What cool abilities could be added for the Ghost to make it usefull outside TvP?
Could the stats be changed?

The LoTV beta seems like a perfect moment to try some new stuff out. If it does not work. Well yeah, we can always enjoy the 3-ghost push every now and then

Post with some suggestions:

Hider has some ideas:
+ Show Spoiler +

On April 04 2015 00:44 Hider wrote:
In general, I am not a fan of the spellcasters in Sc2, but Ghosts are especially problematic. In my essay below, I first mention the reasons I dislike its current design, and later on I offer an idea for a new Ghost.

Some of you guys might agree with parts of it, and others might think my ideas require too much change. But this is just how I wanna see it changed;

EMP
+ Show Spoiler +
Never have I enjoyed spamming EMPs over the protoss army and whenever I offraced I never actually thought "hey that's so fun with the Ghosts draining all of my HTs energy".
My logic is that when there is nothing even remotely fun about an ability, scrap it and replace it with something else. I know we have had an EMP in Sc2 for 5 years and in BW for even longer, but right now, it's just a really boring ability and it only really works vs one race. So get rid of it and find other ways to balance terran.


Snipe
+ Show Spoiler +
Pew Pew Pew... Yeh it sounds cool, but unfortunately that's the only cool thing about Snipe. It's a spamable ability with no countermicro and therefore it simply cannot be properly balanced. Keep the snipe sound, but reuse it in a different way, because this snipe-ability needs to be removed.


Cloak and Nuke
+ Show Spoiler +
Unlike EMP and Snipe, there is potential here. Running around with cloaked Ghosts and nuking enemy bases or armies.... it's a kinda cool thing, and there definitely is alot of countermicro here. Perhaps even a bit, but luckily this is more of a numbers-issue than a general concept flaw.


Suggestions
+ Show Spoiler +
Okay, so what is the role of the Ghost gonna be if it doesn't have Snipe and EMP?
First of all, I wanna promote the nuke-role further. I wanna see more ghosts cloaking around the map and nuking enemy bases or zoning out the enemy army.
Secondly, it does ofc need utility with the army, but rather than thinking in terms of offensive abilities, I believe the Ghost could function better if it had defensive abilities.


New Ability 1: Spellresist
+ Show Spoiler +
The ghost can activate Spellresist and a large bubble around the Ghost appears (like Guardian Shield) and all enemy spell- and splash damage is reduced by 20-30%. Yes, this isn't a super microintensive thing, but it's not really needed here. Rather, this is a way of giving bio a way to be less glass-cannon'ish against Fungal, Ultras, Storm, Disruptors and Colossus.... without being a hardcounter/anti-micro thing. It's the kind of ability that is supposed to feel "not frustrating" while at the same time give the Ghost a clear role in the game.


New Ability 2: Defensive Matrix
+ Show Spoiler +
Target a friendly unit and temporarily increase its HP by XXX. While Spellresist will synergize better w/ bio, Defensive Matrix works better with mech. E.g. you can make that Thor in the front slightly more tanky. If the enemy continues to focus fire it, they are in for a rough time.


New Ability 3: Nuke
+ Show Spoiler +
So I actually spent some hours in the editor previously, and I discovered that the following changes feels the nicest:
- Time it takes for Nuke to land = roughly 10-12 seconds.
- Damage reduced from 300 to 175
- Splash damage changed so it oneshots workers in a much lower radius
- Nuke research time reduced to 15-20 seconds (from 60 I believe)
- Nuke cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100

The effect of these changes is to make the Nuke somewhat more reliable and cost-efficient... as a zoning tool ofc. The enemy should still be able to spot it the majority of the time, but if he doesn't spot it (which is more likely to occur w/ these changes), he is not gonna lose his whole army. It's a big deal but not something that automatically is gonna result in a win.


New Ability 4: Stim
+ Show Spoiler +
Yeh this is the most controversial suggestion probably. Some may initally say "nonono you can't do that, it's not intended to be like a Marine or Maurauder". And they are right in that its not intended to be llike that. But there are two reasons I want to see it added:

(1) Ghost needs a mobility ability to further promote cloacked harass play
(2) I just hate having Ghosts w/ my army. It messes up control grups. Adding in stim makes it more simple to control bio + ghost as you can have Ghosts with your MMM in one control group.

With regards to the latter, I also know a lot of people will say that it's good to have different control groups because it (a) rewards you for splitting up your army or (b) because it increases the skillcap.

The former complaint is straight up wrong. Ghosts in Sc2 are typically really deathball'ish and pure bio is one of the most multitaskbased compositions in the game.

The second complaint is correct, however, I don't think its a fun way of increasing the skillcap. I want the game to feel easy to play while having endless micro opportunites. Micro means stuff like splitting, focus firing, pulling back injured units, casting abilites well and dropship pick-up interactions. 1a2a3a isn't micro for me, but just an annoyance.

But, don't overfocus on the stim-part here. There are other types of possilbiites. For instance it could also just be straight up faster when cloaked (instead of getting stim).


Last remarks
+ Show Spoiler +
This Ghost will overall promote longer battles, it will work vs all races and it's not a "prevent stuff from happening" spellcaster. The intention is that you have maybe with your army for defensive matrix and spellresist, and then maybe 2-3 that you send around the map and nuke your army or perhaps use the stimmed Ghosts to snipe off workers or other isolated enemy units.

In regards to having a more damagefocussed spellcaster, I reserved that role for the Raven. Imo PDD needs a real replacement and Seeker Missile needs to be tuned as well, but that's an essay for a different day.

Tactically it also has more utility in the Nuke being more reliable at zoning out the enemy army.




JulDragon regarding the Spectre ability:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:
What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that (Wiki)Spectre had in the WoL campaign?

Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect.
Maybe too strong?





http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/598681/1/Glorfindel/ladder/161337#current-rank
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
April 03 2015 14:04 GMT
#2
The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran.
plotspot
Profile Joined October 2014
800 Posts
April 03 2015 14:39 GMT
#3
Ghost is massively underused. They virtually have no meaning by now, even against P, although ideally they should be a core unit in any bio composition.

With the degradation of the Marauder, they should - especially against Z - gain more significance. Something like an armor-halving round would already be fantastic against all sorts of enemies and you don't need a massive amount of them. Just 3 or 4 as support.
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
April 03 2015 14:52 GMT
#4
Well with more bases i think Nuke harass might be a thing. That is if Tank Drops don't outshine them. Then again nuke warnings cause panic and messes with your mind.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
April 03 2015 15:00 GMT
#5
On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote:
The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran.

"Only viable". You forgot the disruptor? Or are you suggesting that you found a way to use the ghost vs an invincible moving ball of death ;D?
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12702 Posts
April 03 2015 15:01 GMT
#6
we see most ghosts than infestors and broodlords
I hope these units can get a looked at as well
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
alpenrahm
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany629 Posts
April 03 2015 15:02 GMT
#7
If a ghost would come with one free nuke I would be building em non stop.
alpenrahm
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany629 Posts
April 03 2015 15:07 GMT
#8
On April 04 2015 00:01 ETisME wrote:
we see most ghosts than infestors and broodlords
I hope these units can get a looked at as well



The problem with Blords isn´t that they are bad, rather than their counters being overwhelmingly strong. Tempests anyone?

alpenrahm
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany629 Posts
April 03 2015 15:08 GMT
#9
On April 04 2015 00:00 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote:
The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran.

"Only viable". You forgot the disruptor? Or are you suggesting that you found a way to use the ghost vs an invincible moving ball of death ;D?


it would be fun if you could interrupt the disruptor with emp :D
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
April 03 2015 15:09 GMT
#10
the Terran who doesn't use Ghosts is the Terran who likes it rough. Or one that is to busy macroing to use spell casters.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12702 Posts
April 03 2015 15:09 GMT
#11
On April 04 2015 00:07 alpenrahm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2015 00:01 ETisME wrote:
we see most ghosts than infestors and broodlords
I hope these units can get a looked at as well



The problem with Blords isn´t that they are bad, rather than their counters being overwhelmingly strong. Tempests anyone?


and because they are just too slow.
I think it is going to be worse in LotV where bases are more spread out.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
SBGamer
Profile Joined October 2014
Germany115 Posts
April 03 2015 15:10 GMT
#12
Maybe giving Ghost stim would make them more useful and microing them would be easier. Maybe not even a attack speed buff, only movement speed.
Bomber is love, Maru is life.
Sholip
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Hungary422 Posts
April 03 2015 15:19 GMT
#13
Right now Ghosts are basically only used against Protoss, which is really a shame. They are not cheap, but it's not like they are ultra expensive like Carriers, to justify how little they are seen, even in the late game. It's simply you have absolutely no reason to make them against Zerg or Terran. (This effect is even stronger since EMP removes shields as well as energy, so it is hard coded into the ability to be much more effective against Protoss than against Zerg or Terran.)
I would think that with the addition of the Viper's AA AoE, maybe the Ghost will see more use (complementing mass air compositions, or even just to protect Medivacs). I still think that, if things were to remain the way they are now, Ghosts will still be underused against Z and T.
Maybe a buff to Snipe could change it, as typically Z and T are the races with biological units. Something like 35 + 15 damage, instead of 25 + 25 vs. psionic, or so. Then Ghosts would be pretty good against later game units like Hydras and even Ultras, and may be used more often.
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Also, Zest is best." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Glorfindel!
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1815 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-03 15:39:31
April 03 2015 15:35 GMT
#14
On April 04 2015 00:19 Sholip wrote:
Right now Ghosts are basically only used against Protoss, which is really a shame. They are not cheap, but it's not like they are ultra expensive like Carriers, to justify how little they are seen, even in the late game. It's simply you have absolutely no reason to make them against Zerg or Terran. (This effect is even stronger since EMP removes shields as well as energy, so it is hard coded into the ability to be much more effective against Protoss than against Zerg or Terran.)
I would think that with the addition of the Viper's AA AoE, maybe the Ghost will see more use (complementing mass air compositions, or even just to protect Medivacs). I still think that, if things were to remain the way they are now, Ghosts will still be underused against Z and T.
Maybe a buff to Snipe could change it, as typically Z and T are the races with biological units. Something like 35 + 15 damage, instead of 25 + 25 vs. psionic, or so. Then Ghosts would be pretty good against later game units like Hydras and even Ultras, and may be used more often.

Or a new ability that would actually be usefull against T or Z.

I dont think that Blizzard are willing to experiment with the Snipe-numers anymore. Closed case, kind of.

If they are intenting to keep Ultralisk in the way they are now with 8 armour, perhaps Snipe and as you say the damage is a must to make Terran Bio able to fight Ultras at all. As of now, you need like 100 Marines firing 5 times a an Ultralisk to kill it?

Feel logical that the Terran Special support unit should be able to help there.
If not snipe (as I wrote, I dont think that will happend) so atleast with some other spell that can make a difference.

I mean, it was weird that Marine + Marauder could combat Zergs super-unit, however, it is as weird that the strongest, most expensive "super unit" Terran Bio has it completly useless in TvZ.

Another problem with the Ghost comapred to Bio:
It moves slow and is imobile compared to the stimmed bio. In TvP when you commit with Ghosts you know they are not getting out alive most of the times. If you lose the fight, there are no retreats since Blink Stalkers and Chargelots catches them really fast. Would not be a problem if the standing army was really hard to break.

High Templars of course suffer a bit of the same problem, with the difference that it is really hard to kill that deathball. Therefore I think most Terran players do not opt for the Ghost-route late game, its a one trick pony and once it looses a battle you are dead - and once you begin the battle you are commited to it if you have a high ghost number.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/598681/1/Glorfindel/ladder/161337#current-rank
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9433 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-03 15:58:09
April 03 2015 15:44 GMT
#15
In general, I am not a fan of the spellcasters in Sc2, but Ghosts are especially problematic. In my essay below, I first mention the reasons I dislike its current design, and later on I offer an idea for a new Ghost.

Some of you guys might agree with parts of it, and others might think my ideas require too much change. But this is just how I wanna see it changed;

EMP
+ Show Spoiler +
Never have I enjoyed spamming EMPs over the protoss army and whenever I offraced I never actually thought "hey that's so fun with the Ghosts draining all of my HTs energy".
My logic is that when there is nothing even remotely fun about an ability, scrap it and replace it with something else. I know we have had an EMP in Sc2 for 5 years and in BW for even longer, but right now, it's just a really boring ability and it only really works vs one race. So get rid of it and find other ways to balance terran.


Snipe
+ Show Spoiler +
Pew Pew Pew... Yeh it sounds cool, but unfortunately that's the only cool thing about Snipe. It's a spamable ability with no countermicro and therefore it simply cannot be properly balanced. Keep the snipe sound, but reuse it in a different way, because this snipe-ability needs to be removed.


Cloak and Nuke
+ Show Spoiler +
Unlike EMP and Snipe, there is potential here. Running around with cloaked Ghosts and nuking enemy bases or armies.... it's a kinda cool thing, and there definitely is alot of countermicro here. Perhaps even a bit, but luckily this is more of a numbers-issue than a general concept flaw.


Suggestions
+ Show Spoiler +
Okay, so what is the role of the Ghost gonna be if it doesn't have Snipe and EMP?
First of all, I wanna promote the nuke-role further. I wanna see more ghosts cloaking around the map and nuking enemy bases or zoning out the enemy army.
Secondly, it does ofc need utility with the army, but rather than thinking in terms of offensive abilities, I believe the Ghost could function better if it had defensive abilities.


New Ability 1: Spellresist
+ Show Spoiler +
The ghost can activate Spellresist and a large bubble around the Ghost appears (like Guardian Shield) and all enemy spell- and splash damage is reduced by 20-30%. Yes, this isn't a super microintensive thing, but it's not really needed here. Rather, this is a way of giving bio a way to be less glass-cannon'ish against Fungal, Ultras, Storm, Disruptors and Colossus.... without being a hardcounter/anti-micro thing. It's the kind of ability that is supposed to feel "not frustrating" while at the same time give the Ghost a clear role in the game.


New Ability 2: Defensive Matrix
+ Show Spoiler +
Target a friendly unit and temporarily increase its HP by XXX. While Spellresist will synergize better w/ bio, Defensive Matrix works better with mech. E.g. you can make that Thor in the front slightly more tanky. If the enemy continues to focus fire it, they are in for a rough time.


New Ability 3: Nuke
+ Show Spoiler +
So I actually spent some hours in the editor previously, and I discovered that the following changes feels the nicest:
- Time it takes for Nuke to land = roughly 10-12 seconds.
- Damage reduced from 300 to 175
- Splash damage changed so it oneshots workers in a much lower radius
- Nuke research time reduced to 15-20 seconds (from 60 I believe)
- Nuke cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100

The effect of these changes is to make the Nuke somewhat more reliable and cost-efficient... as a zoning tool ofc. The enemy should still be able to spot it the majority of the time, but if he doesn't spot it (which is more likely to occur w/ these changes), he is not gonna lose his whole army. It's a big deal but not something that automatically is gonna result in a win.


New Ability 4: Stim
+ Show Spoiler +
Yeh this is the most controversial suggestion probably. Some may initally say "nonono you can't do that, it's not intended to be like a Marine or Maurauder". And they are right in that its not intended to be llike that. But there are two reasons I want to see it added:

(1) Ghost needs a mobility ability to further promote cloacked harass play
(2) I just hate having Ghosts w/ my army. It messes up control grups. Adding in stim makes it more simple to control bio + ghost as you can have Ghosts with your MMM in one control group.

With regards to the latter, I also know a lot of people will say that it's good to have different control groups because it (a) rewards you for splitting up your army or (b) because it increases the skillcap.

The former complaint is straight up wrong. Ghosts in Sc2 are typically really deathball'ish and pure bio is one of the most multitaskbased compositions in the game.

The second complaint is correct, however, I don't think its a fun way of increasing the skillcap. I want the game to feel easy to play while having endless micro opportunites. Micro means stuff like splitting, focus firing, pulling back injured units, casting abilites well and dropship pick-up interactions. 1a2a3a isn't micro for me, but just an annoyance.

But, don't overfocus on the stim-part here. There are other types of possilbiites. For instance it could also just be straight up faster when cloaked (instead of getting stim).


Last remarks
+ Show Spoiler +
This Ghost will overall promote longer battles, it will work vs all races and it's not a "prevent stuff from happening" spellcaster. The intention is that you have maybe with your army for defensive matrix and spellresist, and then maybe 2-3 that you send around the map and nuke your army or perhaps use the stimmed Ghosts to snipe off workers or other isolated enemy units.

In regards to having a more damagefocussed spellcaster, I reserved that role for the Raven. Imo PDD needs a real replacement and Seeker Missile needs to be tuned as well, but that's an essay for a different day.

Tactically it also has more utility in the Nuke being more reliable at zoning out the enemy army.


JulDraGoN
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Sweden370 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-03 15:56:50
April 03 2015 15:49 GMT
#16
What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that (Wiki)Spectre had in the WoL campaign?

Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect.
Maybe too strong?

I mean nobody wants to admit they eat 9 cans of ravioli, but I did and I'm ashamed of myself. The first can doesn't count and then you get to the second, and the third. The fourth and fifth I think I burnt with the blow torch and I just kept eating.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9433 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-03 16:35:46
April 03 2015 16:35 GMT
#17
On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:
What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that (Wiki)Spectre had in the WoL campaign?

Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect.
Maybe too strong?



Stun sucks in RTS games. Way too unforgiveable and not exciting micro.
plotspot
Profile Joined October 2014
800 Posts
April 03 2015 16:59 GMT
#18
On April 04 2015 01:35 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:
What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that (Wiki)Spectre had in the WoL campaign?

Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect.
Maybe too strong?



Stun sucks in RTS games. Way too unforgiveable and not exciting micro.


I assume you don't like the Infestor then?^^ But since you like "zoning out" I may guess you think the Ravager is fine?
Daumen
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany1073 Posts
April 03 2015 17:02 GMT
#19
I'd like to see the costs changed, 200 minerals is kinda harsh since Terran Armies are Mineral-based.
President of the ReaL Fan Club.
starimk
Profile Joined December 2011
106 Posts
April 03 2015 17:03 GMT
#20
What if EMP had additional effects? As in a debuff that removed effects such as movement speed on creep, or increased attack from stimpacks? Of course a lot of things would have to be modified, including the name EMP.
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